Chrome noob- chrome or aem for 850whp

[vr4tune]

Looks like the op lit the fuse and ran.

[fastfalcon94]

Didn't take any offense. I know what it is you want. I appreciate you holding out this long for me to present the option for it to you.

Ease of tuning is subjective to the experience the user has. For a noob starting fresh, chrome seems to have been a better option for simplicity sakes as the initial setup is very straight foreword and the new tuner can progress easier as their car runs decently off the bat with minimal effort.

I wish I could get away from evoscan and adapt ECUFlash to interact with the ram live. I also wish we could setup some kind of hardware to monitor the CPU live for storing logs within the ECU case itself. The sad truth is the hardware is better on more aftermarket devices.

If AEM wants to hire me, I'd program a better OS for them from scratch too.

Did you ever talk with the people of ECMLink? It's been a while, but I thought there was a thread on the other forum where they were considering doing it for our cars but backed out due to profitability. Something about not enough flash ecu's out there since at the time they were only in 98/99 ecus. Then they said something about lending a hand if someone wanted to pursue our own chip but they wouldn't port their software over. Maybe they would be more inclined to help now. They have live tuning, speed density, and probably the best built in logger I have ever used.

I hate the logger in AEM v2. It's a pain to zoom in on the graphs. And if you are trying to export it excel in order to import it into virtual dyno, you have to manually select all the parameters and tell it to "export zoomed area only" every single time. There's no way to automate it when exporting.

[J. Fast]

Each has its pros and cons.

The biggest thing the flash ECU offers is drive ability in all types of climates with out retune... Think stock here. Get in, turn key, go fast! Most AEM tunes can never come close to this.

Also with the flash ECU you use your stock sensors. And, at least with a Clone ECU, you can use any boost control solenoid.

You keep the obdii port and the ability to pass your smog test.

Now there are some areas the AEM is good at. .. compete flexibility. With the flash ECU you are stuck with what ever size table is predefined in the ROM. The stock rom had limited timing and afr maps while Chrome has expanded maps. So far no one has had a problem with the map sizes.

No speed density. And to be honest, no one has yet to be able to give the Chrome developer a solid concrete basis for why speed density is better which is based on sound and proven theory and not purely opinion.

No live tuning. You must flash upload all tune changes. Not a show stopper as the flash process is quite quick.

The aem requires a larger up front investment. By using your stock sensors, wiring, etc, your up front costs are significantly lower over AEM.

Again, your tuner will have a preference.

I hope this helps out a bit.



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You can implement your own lookups and add tables missing in AEM. If you want to add a constant barometric pressure lookup in AEM you can add a second external MAP sensor and create a table and lookup. You point it to an open extension port on the EMS and command cross reference to the sensor. There really isn't one thing the AEM can't do as compared to the stock ECU other than fire like 1 second later (which actually isn't bad at all because you build a little more oil pressure and oil film before hard starting).

2nd. Speed density has better drivability characteristics than MAF. All your readings are right off the backside of the valves post TB in the holding tank which serves great real time benefit. Another plus, you don't have to be concerned with crankcase ventilation and atmospheric dumping. Adding to drivability, it's possible to tune out part throttle surge and hesitation issues that are quite characteristic of MAF situations. There's a 30 page thread on this board on guys with MAF issues and surge/hesitation and they just can't fix it. Speed density is the fix for that. It really is.

3rd. Stock sensors. We're talking a new game here and paving a new road on a 1000hp power level. I'm pretty sure he's going to want to ditch the stock throttle body and stock FIAV and TPS, second, he's probably going to want to pickup another timing mark reference because I'm guessing the car will be cam'd. Are there patches on Clone ECU's for those issues yet... and can you add extension ports to Clone's to integrate features and sensors there's no space for?


OBDII port is the one fatal flaw in the AEM. However, depending on individual state and federal regulations if you convert your vehicle to an AFV (alternative fuel vehicle) and meet the EPA's tier 2 smog/emission and fuel economy minimums and legally re-class your vehicle you are not subject to OBDII PASS/FAIL. (Ask me why I know this)


Live trace/ecu follow/live tuning is a big deal. I try to not make it out to be a big deal but it really is. Real-time metrics are a huge benefit.


For the power level he's seeking the financial impact is likely equal from the AEM to Flash except that he'll likely be paving his own road on Flash.


Like Jeff mentioned earlier, find a MAF that's big enough that won't post a restriction. I will elaborate a bit more on why not MAF in a bit.


I agree end results are calibrator experience based.

Good luck adapting a MAF to work at that power level. Until Chrome enables SD, AEM would be the only way to go for an anticipated power goal like that. That is the Chrome downfall right now and TBH it's really not a downfall, it's just something not explored yet. A slot style MAF would make a power goal like that achievable but the plumbing size would have to be pretty large and without a honeycomb investment drivability would suffer from that style setup. OP doesn't seem to be terribly concerned with drivability now but I have seen first hand how slot style sensors can be all over the place with the huge tubing required to make the power goal suggested.


Jeff

I agree with this. MAF pre turbo has is own fatal flaws. For one, the AIT, air metering, and quality sample is pre turbo. There is no accounting for post turbo/post intercooler intake temperatures. If ambient or underhood temps are 100 degrees but post intercooler/throttle body temps are 200 degrees the MAF sensor is blind to them and so is the ECU. The only thing you have to save you at that point is the knock sensor and octane counter off dual maps. On the positive side the benefit to this style of configuration is the MAF sensor is safe from PCV recirculation particulate and condensation off intercooler blow thru. Again, the negative though is the MAF and filter diameter required to not pose a significant restriction in pull thru configuration(like stock) will likely need to be 4+ inches at 1000hp levels.

In blow thru, as you know, any secondary injection vapor, pcv contaminants, or condensation off the intercooler with wreak havoc on the metering device. When you crank up the wick you start blowing particles thru. To crack XXXXhp you'd be better off pulling thru than sticking a meter on a post intercooler pipe and risking having something in the form of mist interfering with sensor operation.

So its getting around to that time. I would like to fully understand this flash ecu deal before jumping in.
So some questions I have are-
1.can we completely change graph sizing? Or do you adjust within the already made perimeters?
And 2. Will this be a good option for a 1000hp car, that will see the streets rarely?
3. Can we scale to any size? Build our own maps to our spec?.
4. Or should I go aem ems. I already own a 99 ecu but I don't know wtf to do with it,
Any help will be appreciated

For the power level you seek speed density is the answer. I suspect someone is working on a patch to convert Clone's to SD just like the EVO and DSM guys did. If not, patronize the creators till they make one (). SD is THE ANSWER.

Good thread. Gave my .02.

Best of luck OP. In the everyone eventually finds their own way.

Cheers!

[familyMAN]

I hate the logger in AEM v2. It's a pain to zoom in on the graphs. And if you are trying to export it excel in order to import it into virtual dyno, you have to manually select all the parameters and tell it to "export zoomed area only" every single time. There's no way to automate it when exporting.

Okay, you twisted my arm, I'll take your series2 for pennies on the dollar so you don't have to deal with it anymore

[Greg E]

2nd. Speed density has better drivability characteristics than MAF.

Bullshit....


If that were true, there'd be a SD version of chrome out right now.

SD is a calculated guess about airflow to which it almost never accurate and you need a correctional value of some sort to organize for you. MAF is a much more accurate reading of true airflow. That's why they use MAF in a stock car along with every current production vehicle on the market.

[J. Fast]

Bullshit....


If that were true, there'd be a SD version of chrome out right now.

SD is a calculated guess about airflow to which it almost never accurate and you need a correctional value of some sort to organize for you. MAF is a much more accurate reading of true airflow. That's why they use MAF in a stock car along with every current production vehicle on the market.

Sometimes telling something where it ought to be and knowing where it is, is better than not having the ability. Get back tome when you tune over 100 cars and go to school for it.

[99 vr4]

I wish I could get away from evoscan and adapt ECUFlash to interact with the ram live. I also wish we could setup some kind of hardware to monitor the CPU live for storing logs within the ECU case itself. The sad truth is the hardware is better on more aftermarket devices.

The main problem according to Colby (Tactrix/ECUFlash) is that there is just not enough addressable RAM area to live tune our cars. This is a hardware limitation of the actual 7202F CPU.

As far as the other suggestions it is possible but it all comes down to $$.

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[R/T93]

Subbed........

From the phone.

[Greg E]

The main problem according to Colby (Tactrix/ECUFlash) is that there is just not enough addressable RAM area to live tune our cars. This is a hardware limitation of the actual 7202F CPU.

As far as the other suggestions it is possible but it all comes down to $$.

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There's enough memory for what we need.

[Greg E]

Sometimes telling something where it ought to be and knowing where it is, is better than not having the ability. Get back tome when you tune over 100 cars and go to school for it.

If you are interested in being taught, I'm more than available for you to learn something from.