SMIC vs FMIC

[YoshiBishi]

Okay, this has probably been beaten to death on other forums, but I didn't see a topic about it here...

I have a 1st gen with stock SMICs right now. I am currently running 380AWHP. I do not plan on going above 450AWHP, since this is more of a fast street car rather than a track car.

I have heard about issues with FMICs and making cars run hot as well as possibly having to remove the crash bar. Is this true for all FMICs, or just certain ones? Removing the crash bar is something I do not want to do.

How do SMICs compare to FMICs in cooling ability?

What are some good FMICs and SMICs?

Thanks for the help guys!

[mb7050]

I would choose smics over a fmic,
FMIC decreases the airflow through radiator and your extracting heat from the FMIC to the already hot radiator. Then all the heat leads directly into the engine bay.

And there is enough room in these cars to fit smics big enough to support up to 1500hp if needed !

Don't be fooled by the common myth that a biggest intercooler is always better , it´s NOT true !
It´s all about maximizing thermal efficiency and minimizing pressure loss .
Bigger IC does slow the boost response(more space to compress) .
I have noticed that intercooler flow ratings are often overrated (especially ebay intercoolers) so beware !
You can check flow ratings for different core sizes at http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/customAirCore.html ( yes flow rating varies with manufacturers and core styles but generally there should be no major differences except super cheap chinese cores)Your better off avoiding the cheap chinese cores in the first place.





Bell Intercoolers - Custom Intercooler and Core Solutions (http://www.bellintercoolers.com/)

any size you want you can even send them your ic´s and they will make a bolt on set for you. stock sidemount size is 8x7x2.6 . 8x8x4.5 will fit easily and cover about 700 whp (bell cores) . Few 3s owners have send them stock ic´s in the past you can ask them they might even have ready design (bolt on for 3s) (8x8x4.5) or (8x8.4x3.5) .

8.1x8x6 cores 2.25" in out P/N A600081080BB225 (Bell intercoolers) would cost you about 480 $ (2011) each assembled with end tanks. You cant go wrong if you order from Bell they know everything about intercoolers !. they are rated 911 cfm each (1811cfm combined "should" be enough for atleast ++ 1000hp flow wise)
(1 psig pressure loss across the intercooler core and a charge-air pressure of 10 psig)
They would be overkill for my application but still not ´too large´.

It´s easy to figure out what kind of flow numbers you would want from your intercooler cores..
Me for example. I´m shooting for 650awhp
So for example 650 AWHHP, or about 780 CHP, requires a total Air-Flow of about 1,180 CFM, at compressor Inlet Conditions, or about 590 for each Intercooler .

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/aachart450.html
lets take a A=4.50" C=8.10" B=8.00" core for example, its rated at 683Cfm each 1366Cfm total $225.00 A450081080
to keep things simple it takes about 150 cfm per 100chp so two of these cores will cover about 700awhp roughly flow wise. 1 psig pressure loss across the intercooler core and a charge-air pressure of 10 psig .



sidemounts core sizes
OEM 3000gt: 8x7x2.6= 146 cu. in
DSM : 6 x 8 x 3-7/8" = 186 cu. in
HKS : 8.5''x8''x2.75'' = 187 cu.in (x2)http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/partdetails/HKS/Intercoolers/Intercoolers/Side_Mount/4240
Dejon : 8''x8.75''x4'' = 280 cu.in (x2) (as they were before)
Dejon : 8''x8''x3.5'' = 224 cu.in (2x) (as they are now) http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=26508
Gene : 8x10"x4.5" = 360 cu.in (x2) (Bell cores rated 800+ cfm each "should" be enough for 1000hp !)
Alamo : 6"x8 3/4"x 6" = 315 cu.in (x2) (discontinued)




some good reading :

#1 start here ARE Cooling (Aluminium Radiators & Engineering P/L) (http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/techtalk.htm)


Frontal area: This is a rapidly decreasing function. If the proper core size is used, then doubling it will definitely not double the efficiency. More likely, doubling the core would raise the efficiency about 5% and cost twice the necessary amount and add substantially to the weight.


When adequate space exists for a large IC, the decision must must be made about the direction in which to orient the core. Unless overwhelming reasons dictate otherwise, the core should always be constructed to provide the greatest possible internal flow area. The direction of flow is unimportant. .
1
http://www.airpowersystems.com/ls1/intercooler/core_vert.jpg

2
http://www.airpowersystems.com/ls1/intercooler/core_hor.jpg

lets say that #1 core have three times more air passages than #2 core. #1 core will flow more than three times more than #2 core !




Tube length is the second biggest consideration, as a tube twice as long as another will have nearly twice the drag at the same air velocity.

Example

Boost: 10 psi
Ambient temperature: 70 F
70% compressor efficiency
Cooler #1 1.0 psi pressure drop
Cooler #2 2.0 psi pressure drop

I won’t go through the actual math in detail, but under the above conditions the compressor discharge temperatures will be as follows:

Using Cooler #1: 197.0 F
Using Cooler #2: 208.2 F

To get an intake manifold temperature of 100 degrees, cooler #2 has to be 78% efficient. While cooler #1 only has to be 76 % efficient.

If the increased pressure drop causes the compressor efficiency to drop to 65%, the compressor discharge temperature with cooler #2 rises to 218.6 F and the cooler has to be 80% efficient to compensate.

In addition cooler #2 will have more boost lag and more exhaust gas reversion.

intercooler thermal efficiency
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61809&stc=1
T_in : intercooler inlet temperature (or post compressor temperature).
T_out : intercooler outlet temperature.
T_ambient : ambient temperature.

Pressure Loss/drop
Corky Bell has suggested that pressure gauges mounted on the inlet and outlet of the intercooler. The pressures will be read at engine redline.

END TANKS:


Perhaps the greatest potential for improvement (in
intercoolers) rests in the design of the tanks on each end of the charge
cooler.Here the wrong approach can muck up both airflow and cooling
efficiency.

simple example (good to keep in mind when purchasing intercooler) :
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2515/nimetnvr.png

You will notice that there is an 8% difference in
the loss coefficients of 8.22b vs. 8.22d. Ok big deal. Well as a matter of fact it is
a big deal. Now figure in the other end tank bringing the loss total up to 16%,

I like pictures :)
http://www.awe-tuning.com/media/products/awe/b7_fmic/end_tank_cfd.jpg

http://www.are.com.au/inter/ic001n.JPG

Most of the charge flows through the bottom 35% of core, with the top 65% causing detrimental pressure drop until high boost is reached. Worse again if other pipe is on the bottom too !!


http://www.are.com.au/inter/ic001o.JPG

The 2 corners cause large eddies & the square inlet corners small eddies which restrict flow & distribution across the core window. Worse if pipe is on bottom other end !!


http://www.are.com.au/inter/ic001p.JPG

Not perfect, but very good & very cost effective. Nowhere near as important to have diagonally opposite tanks like both designs on the left. Very small eddies & small uneven distribution across core window




by far HKS sidemounts have the best end tank design for 3s .
http://www.supercar-engineering.com/rubberducky/3S/Mods/TT/HKSIC/DSC00133.jpg

tested through computation, the reason for the small endtank is not because it produces even airflow across the core. Simply put, the volume of air that goes through the intercooler forces the airflow to be pretty even across the core because of the restriction imposed by the core tubes. The small endtanks are to improve throttle response by reducing system volume. In other words, you get the same power from the small tanks as you would from large tanks but you get better throttle response with the smaller tank.

Don't forget the ducting
( prolly the single most important thing you can do to improve intercooler efficiency)

Links:
(general flow info M&I Power Technology Incorporated (http://www.mipowertechnology.com/hrsg.htm) )
(Intercooler flow effects from various end tank designs http://dvdtfab.com/intercoolertestlab.pdf )
(Heat Exchanger Theory and Intercoolers Intercooler Theory (http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/intercooler.html) )

[mh3kgt]

I never ran into any overheating issues with my cx racing fmic. Love it and the fitment was great. I probably wont ever see over 450awhp with my 15g's so the core I have now I feel is very adequate. If I get 19t's in the future I think it will still suffice.

[YoshiBishi]

Did you ever determine if your surging is caused by your FMIC?

[mh3kgt]

Nope haven't tried out balance tube or anything yet. I upgraded turbos same time as FMIC tho, so there's nothing to say it's the FMIC at all, could be just larger turbos moving more air cause the surging. I've heard people say they get surging even with stock smics.....

[MADMarc]

+1 for no overheating issues w/a front mount. Last summer was friggin scorching and it still didn't over heat. I have the dual core fmic that oohnoo fabbed the pipes for.

[GTO Assassin]

I honestly believe if you're over heating with a FMIC, you're doing something wrong or something IS wrong. I've driven in traffic, 1st and 2nd gear stop starting WOP, drags as well as long distances without ever over heating.

Scotty

[YoshiBishi]

Dual core vs single core FMIC?

[mh3kgt]

dual core allows you to keep stock IC piping of you use oohnoo's kit. Single core needs custom piping unless you buy the full kit with piping included. That's about the only main difference other than dual core makes it look like your car is grinning, and single core doesnt lol

[Chatzvr4]

Dual core vs single core FMIC?

this all depends on which single core you are talking about. a typical cx style core will not utilize the entire core as the air does not get to the top of the core as much as the bottom of the core. The dual core is actually a single core with 4 end tanks acting as two cores.
Now if you use one of our larger FMICs we change the angle of the end tanks allowing the air to flow through the entire core more efficiently.

Thicker side mounts will result in less air getting to your oil cooler. So if you go this route i would recommend a GZP FMOC

Either way both setups are good for street use

[YoshiBishi]

There are too many damn choices in this forced induction world we live in. Maybe I'll do a VR4 to SL conversion to ease my mind. Anyone have a write up on AWD to FWD conversion for our cars? :lol7:

[bluzvr4]

keep it awd just put a n/a in it and u have awd nonturbo

[R/T93]

<3 my HKS's. I am going to sneak my laptop in the car this year for some logging to see IAT's while on the road course. Will be able to get a better idea how well they work then.

[IPD]

my $.02

overheating is easily solved by getting a bigger radiator. the 3sx single-core is a MASSIVE radiator (especially compared to the n/a mtx one). imho, i think most of the people who complain about overheating are probably using the n/a mtx radiator--with or without an FMIC). even if they're not, it could be that their radiator is so old and non-functioning that it's not doing the proper job.

i don't really have a whole lot of input on the FMIC vs. SMIC argument. i've only run stock smics & 9b's in my car. if i were going to put MASSIVE smics in; i would definitely look to run a front-mount oil/trans cooler. as it stand now, i plan to run FMIC and put those in the stock SMIC locations.

p.s.

according to what chatz has told me, you can run the SSM 4" FMIC kit without modifying/removing the stock crash bar. that's what sold me on his kit. 36x12x4" thick FMIC has MUCH more surface area than 8x8x4.5" SMICS. 1728 vs. 576, if my math is correct. again though...this is all my OPINION.

[MADMarc]

Ah and I forgot to mention that I didn't have to cut my crash bar for the dual core and I don't believe the cx kit requires cutting either. I personally went dual core because it made more sense to let the air flow through the entire core utilizing all of the space rather than some front mounts that don't take advantage of it all. The more chance the air has to dissipate heat the better :)

[MR2]

I'm in the middle of getting Bell to ship me a 10x12x6" core to see if it'll in anyway fit SMIC :)

why the hell not.

[akotten]

I prefer the idea of larger SMIC's. The heat is dissipated completely away from the core(s) instead onto your radiator and engine bay. It just makes more sense. I think about it a lot while sitting in thermodynamics class :p

[MR2]

I can think of a lot of ways to increase the efficiency of the SMIC location...without it costing the earth....not as many for FMIC.

I have some diagrams :p

[YoshiBishi]

my $.02

overheating is easily solved by getting a bigger radiator. the 3sx single-core is a MASSIVE radiator (especially compared to the n/a mtx one).

I've got the 3sx single-core radiator installed. The wifey wants me to get an FMIC with a 99 front bumper conversion. She prefers single core, but I am leaning towards dual core since it sounds like it flows better.
My other option is to keep the stock front 1st gen and put on dejon SMICs. However, she will make fun of me everyday about how old and ugly the 1st gen fronts are. :cry:

[mb7050]

my $.02

36x12x4" thick FMIC has MUCH more surface area than 8x8x4.5" SMICS. 1728 vs. 576, if my math is correct. again though...this is all my OPINION.

and flow ratings ? end tank design ?

[mh3kgt]

Same here, the wife wants me to go 99 front, and I'm leaning towards 97 front. I don't mind the 1g front sometimes, but the popups make it look so damn 80's

[mb7050]

I really like the 97-98 front too.

[mb7050]

I'm in the middle of getting Bell to ship me a 10x12x6" core to see if it'll in anyway fit SMIC :)

why the hell not.

it´ll fit (ABS need to go/relocate along with oil cooler but that you already know :) )
but you would have to have end tanks like or similar :
http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/2ndpart3.jpg

http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/IMG_0924.jpg

[YoshiBishi]

Same here, the wife wants me to go 99 front, and I'm leaning towards 97 front. I don't mind the 1g front sometimes, but the popups make it look so damn 80's

Yea, the 80s look is what she wants me to get rid of.

[mb7050]

80´s rocks but cooling wise 99 is the way to go :)

[MR2]

according to what chatz has told me, you can run the SSM 4" FMIC kit without modifying/removing the stock crash bar. that's what sold me on his kit. 36x12x4" thick FMIC has MUCH more surface area than 8x8x4.5" SMICS. 1728 vs. 576, if my math is correct. again though...this is all my OPINION.

Lets look at figures:

is your 36x12x4 total CORE or including end tanks?

with Intercooler core design, the CFM is based on core design vs height and depth (the greater both of them are the more it will flow) against length(the longer it is the more restriction..aka longer it is the less it flows)
effectively it can COOL the air is based on the total size very basically (assuming cooling charge and pressure is uniform across all coolers)

36x12x4" estimated ~600~700CFM is estimated. (1728ci)
8x8x4.5" estimated CFM is 683CFM (288ci)

what people don't seem to realise is you can fit 10" wide IC's in each side after you move the oil cooler, make more compact end tanks and you can free up another 2" for core area.
10x10x4.5 812 CFM Each (450ci)

or that you can also fit 6" deep IC, relocate the freezer dryer + ABS (for another 2" of intercooler height)
10x12x6" 1033 CFM each (720ci)

the best use of the CI figure is how much heat the IC can store...imagine your doing donuts...the larger the ci the more donuts you can do before your intake charge starts to get so hot it produces knock :)
the faster your going the less the ci figure matters (more air flow through core)

:)

[mb7050]

10x12x6" 1033 CFM each

:)

Yeah and thats more than anyone probably needs unless your going for +1500hp :)

[IPD]

i would argue that beyond 4" thickness, you're not gaining a whole lot in cooling effectiveness.

[MR2]

definitly not...but you ARE gaining CFM capability, and since it's a heatsink your gaining more heatsink in theory you have a performance increase there too.

only downer is it's more space to have to compress...so more lag

[IPD]

yes...but also because greater length + greater width > same width, same length + greater thickness.

imho, 24x12x2" core > 12x12x4" core.

probably the LARGEST smics you could ever fit would be 12x12 (L*W); regardless of thickness. that's a factor of 288 for both sides combined. and you'd have to REALLY work at fitting them in there.

you can equal that with a FMIC of 24x12; (also regardless of thickness). anything with larger L*W & you've got a more effective cooling solution than SMICS, imho, assuming that the end-tanks are of equivalent performance.

[mb7050]

man give Bell intercoolers a call ask what they recommend !

[MR2]

maximum width without modifying bumper is 11" wide...10" maximum if you want to go 6", the bumper spaces are slighly triangular

and the longer the FMIC the more restrictive it is...not sure how that effects surface area, also not sure if it would end up a more efficient cooling solution or not...would need to be tested...keep in mind the SMIC locations assuming you seal it properly will develop greater pressures...so more flow through the SMIC's in the SMIC location than if they were in the FMIC location

[MR2]

you'd be better asking ARE.com.au I recon :)

[mb7050]

put 4"+ in front of your radiator your asking for overheating problems .

[IPD]

put 4"+ in front of your radiator your asking for overheating problems .

mine will be 4" thick. i guess we'll find out. good thing i don't have a stock radiator. :)

[mb7050]

and the longer the FMIC the more restrictive it is...

also beyond the point its most times pointless to have a 24" long fmic core in most cases 18" do better I mean your not gaining much, if anything your just hurting flow .

[mb7050]

mine will be 4" thick. i guess we'll find out. good thing i don't have a stock radiator. :)

what radiator ?

[IPD]

how exactly do you figure that? once you've split the airflow so it fits in the fins of the core, it doesn't cost you anything to keep it moving in the same size enclosure. in fact, the longer the enclosure, the cooler the charge can get; boyle's law comes into play--meaning that is should now take less force to push the air through the core.

i'll give you that a 24x8" core will probably be less restriction than a 24x12" core (more fins, wider area to spread the charge out to). what i'm saying is that i don't see how a 24x12" core is any more restrictive than a 18x12" core.

p.s.

this is what i've got on my car currently:

http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=27300

[mb7050]

i don't see how a 24x12" core is any more restrictive than a 18x12" core.

p.s.



take any core manufacturer and compare their CFM ratings for different core sizes
ok for examble
http://www.bellintercoolers.com/Images/G_AACoreDimH.jpg
A4.50xB12.10xC18.00 817 CFM

A4.50xB12.10xC24.00 729 CFM

see less flow

A4.50xB2.00xC6.00 173 CFM

A4.50xB4.00xC6.00 346 CFM

see douple flow !

[mb7050]

this is what i've got on my car currently:

3SX Custom High-Capacity Single-Pass Radiator*-*Mitsubishi 3000GT*/*Dodge Stealth Parts (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=27300)

thats a good radiator !

[IPD]

take any core manufacturer and compare their CFM ratings for different core sizes
ok for examble
http://www.bellintercoolers.com/Images/G_AACoreDimH.jpg
A4.50xB2.00xC6.00 core 173 CFM
A4.50xB2.00xC12.00 core 153 CFM
see less flow

A4.50xB2.00xC6.00 173 CFM

A4.50xB4.00xC6.00 346 CFM
see douple flow !

well according to that, the ideal intercooler has 1,000 fins and is only 1" long.

i'm calling BS on that.

[mb7050]

but you get the point ?

[IPD]

yep.

but think on this for a moment:

even if you had equivalently sized (outer dimension) smic and fmic setups--and with equally efficient end tanks--which would actually have greater CFM?

remember, you also have to take into account the extra piping, the extra bends, etc.


p.s.

don't forget that it gets MUCH more difficult to fit efficient end-tanks on a LARGE smic setup. there just isn't a lot of room to work with.

[mb7050]

well according to that, the ideal intercooler has 1,000 fins and is only 1" long.

i'm calling BS on that.

do they make core that size ?

you know that Corky Bell and Gerhard Schruf are the founders of Bell Intercoolers they both are pioneers of turbocharging and they dont just only build intercoolers .
http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/about.html

Corky Bell is also author of two very informative books . You should read his book Maximum Boost !
http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Boost-Turbocharger-Engineering-Performance/dp/0837601606

[mb3000]

do they make core that size ?

you know that Corky Bell and Gerhard Schruf are the founders of Bell Intercoolers they both are pioneers of turbocharging I mean like very first in the industry and they dont just only build intercoolers .

This book is written by Corky Bell and is damn good read !
Amazon.com: Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems (Engineering and Performance) (9780837601601): Corky Bell: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Boost-Turbocharger-Engineering-Performance/dp/0837601606)

I thought the price of the book was pretty high but it was well worth the read. I would definatly reccomend this to anyone who wants to learn more than common knowledge.

P.S. He mentions the 6g72TT several times throughout the book, IIRC it has 2 pictures in there as well.

[MR2]

well according to that, the ideal intercooler has 1,000 fins and is only 1" long.

i'm calling BS on that.

not ideal....but for the largest amount of CFM...they don't talk about it's cooling potential


yep.

but think on this for a moment:

even if you had equivalently sized (outer dimension) smic and fmic setups--and with equally efficient end tanks--which would actually have greater CFM?

SMIC easily...greatest cooling ignoring flow...FMIC

remember, you also have to take into account the extra piping, the extra bends, etc.


p.s.

don't forget that it gets MUCH more difficult to fit efficient end-tanks on a LARGE smic setup. there just isn't a lot of room to work with.

you don't need end tanks to take up room..that's what keeps annoying me! :p

[IPD]

end tanks HAVE to take up room. you do not have a flow-path to the fins without providing for the end tanks to take up some room. this takes up LESS room with smaller intercoolers & fewer rows of fins; but it still takes room. otherwise, you end up with crap like those pics posted at the beginning of this thread.

bending the flow path of air BEHIND the intercooler at a 180-degree angle will also reduce CFM.

[MR2]

actually I'm sure you'll find that those end tanks at the start of the thread flow very very well.

[mb7050]

This would be good to ad here

Surface area can dissipate heat. Thats good. Mass collects and can hold heat. some good, some bad. Largely, you are correct. But

Look at it this way: Say you have an IC that runs at an effectiveness of 95% and looses .50 psi out of 10. Not hard to do.

Now make it twice as big.

The effectivness gain will probably be 2 or 3 % and the pressure loss will drop to about .12/.15 psi.

Keep in mind, with the air/air IC, it ain't gonna get over 100%.

With considerations of weight, cost, Aero drag, and space, it is easy to see that a judgement call must be made on when to stop filling up space with more core.

[mb7050]

if i choose to use FMIC this would defititely be the style :



http://www.google.fi/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://lh5.ggpht.com/_8MPCKJQzPA8/S7_qjbok9_I/AAAAAAAA0l4/DHRys9qhuT0/cheap-intercooler%255B2%255D.jpg%3Fimgmax%3D800&sa=X&ei=dbRWTdUa0fXhBvTunZAH&ved=0CAQQ8wc4HQ&usg=AFQjCNHOXewNUfA9b-YhugnapevThhyhWA


http://www.airpowersystems.com/ls1/intercooler/core_hor.jpg

http://www.airpowersystems.com/ls1/intercooler/core_vert.jpg

make it thick and tall and v mount it gets even better then you could also use side to side end tank desing then .

[J. Fast]

I like the last style you posted. I did some digging and found a few other good designs.

I thought this AMS was pretty sweet:

http://www.forgedperformance.com/store/images/thumb/t_16935.jpg

Obviously this is a monster kit:

http://photos.motoiq.com/MotoIQ/Features/HKS-R35-IC/HKS-GTR-R35-IC-KIT-2/776278904_UeLEF-L.jpg

Autobahn 88 variation:

http://www.ab88.co.uk/images/carp034%20Z32%20%20FMIC%20KIT.JPG

And ofcourse old school Greddy:

http://www.advancespeedshop.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/greddy-nissan-gt-r-r35-intercooler-kit.jpg


Anyway, what do you guys think would happen if I did two stage intercooling? Both sidemount and frontmount? Use my monster sidemounts from Gene and then feed into a dual inlet/outlet fmic? Think it would work? Think it would be real laggy?

I currently have 4 intercooler setups so this would be an interesting test. Here's what I have. I have a stock SMIC setup, Gene's SMIC and my own custom pipes, Greddy FMIC w/ pipes, and my own designed Oohnoo style FMIC w/piping. I could pretty much do whatever I want. Think there's any benefit to twin stage intercooling?

[mb7050]

more volume to compress = more lag, more internal flow area = less pressure drop and better flow. End tanks also cause little pressure drop (if design is good if not poor endtank design can kill performance) and all the extra pipingand bend configurations I would say, no I wouldnt do that. (the dual pass fmic is bottleneck in that configuration too core size dependant tho) .


Frontal area: This is a rapidly decreasing function. If the proper core size is used, then doubling it will definitely not double the efficiency. More likely, doubling the core would raise the efficiency about 5% and cost twice the necessary amount and add substantially to the weight.


Tube length is the second biggest consideration, as a tube twice as long as another will have nearly twice the drag at the same air velocity.

If your making less than 1000hp I would dare to say Gene simics are all you need the core size is sufficient and a two-inch pipe will flow enough air to support at least 500hp-600hp(you would really benefit from bigger piping after that).

ofcourse nothing can beat real world results so if you can get away with a reasonable pressure drop inc piping/ wont choke your engine and it´s not laggy as hell then it somewhat works :)

this is good to keep in mind as well

Boost: 10 psi
Ambient temperature: 70 F
70% compressor efficiency
Cooler #1 1.0 psi pressure drop
Cooler #2 2.0 psi pressure drop

I won’t go through the actual math in detail, but under the above conditions the compressor discharge temperatures will be as follows:

Using Cooler #1: 197.0 F
Using Cooler #2: 208.2 F

To get an intake manifold temperature of 100 degrees, cooler #2 has to be 78% efficient. While cooler #1 only has to be 76 % efficient.

If the increased pressure drop causes the compressor efficiency to drop to 65%, the compressor discharge temperature with cooler #2 rises to 218.6 F and the cooler has to be 80% efficient to compensate.

In addition cooler #2 will have more boost lag and more exhaust gas reversion.

[mb7050]

core size like this is also very good .

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/424/awea4017bsv7.jpg

[mb7050]

end tanks HAVE to take up room. you do not have a flow-path to the fins without providing for the end tanks to take up some room. this takes up LESS room with smaller intercoolers & fewer rows of fins; but it still takes room. otherwise, you end up with crap like those pics posted at the beginning of this thread.

bending the flow path of air BEHIND the intercooler at a 180-degree angle will also reduce CFM.

i´m not sure what pics you mean but here is something

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l17/rawkus2g/2ndpart3.jpg

tested through computation, the reason for the small endtank is not because it produces even airflow across the core. Simply put, the volume of air that goes through the intercooler forces the airflow to be pretty even across the core because of the restriction imposed by the core tubes. The small endtanks are to improve throttle response by reducing system volume. In other words, you get the same power from the small tanks as you would from large tanks but you get better throttle response with the smaller tank.

althou due to the cost factors tank height has to be about 2 ½” in most cases

[MR2]

exactly....that stuff is on Formula 1 (or it was a long time ago) do you know what budget's they have to play with? they would never stuff something that important up...so I guarantee you that those end tank designs are amazing...which is why I plan on my end tanks being somewhat similar.

I don't know if I believe that the end tanks have to be larger to be cheap...if they are pre-made sure...but I recon if you have the time to work on brazing....I recon you could do amazing stuff with a little time.

also why I think people are crazy going with huuuuuge intercooler piping...the DR750's are doing 600+ HP on stock pipes! I think someone had the figures somewhere?

and if you try FMIC + SMIC let us know what it's like!

[MR2]

For the ultimate FMIC for our cars with twins I'd say like the second design, with entry from both sides at the top and exiting at the left side in a single 2.5" (going straight into the throttle body)

[mb7050]

yeah and ditch the rad and mount it there

[mb7050]

and then use two rads and sidemount them, lol :)

(stupid wild ideas passing my mind)

[apickle]

For what it's worth, I contacted Bell a few weeks ago, with a few different ideas of what I'd like to do for intercoolers based on my setup (15G's and 560's). When all was said and done, I was recommended an A3.5"xB8.4"xC8.0" core, with 1.5" inlet/outlet to match the stock pipes. I was mostly interested in whether stepping up to a 2" in/out was worthwhile, and whether to go with a 3.5" or 4.5" core. I'm sending in a pair of stock intercoolers hopefully next week or the week after, and should have my new ones 2 weeks after they receive the stock samples. Quoted price was $509 each, plus freight.

They'll build you a core and tank to match whatever you'd like, but this setup should easily fit in the stock location and flow perfectly for my power goals, as well as being a good compromise between stock SMIC's and a FMIC, which I didn't want to do. Does anybody have flow numbers for the stock intercoolers?

[CoopKill]

Hopefully by NG I will have custom large ETS side mounts. I'll be taking off the front bumper and taking them the car to get them fabbed up. If things go well they may be offering a group buy for those interested. I just need to get a couple other issues resolved first.

[MR2]

For what it's worth, I contacted Bell a few weeks ago, with a few different ideas of what I'd like to do for intercoolers based on my setup (15G's and 560's). When all was said and done, I was recommended an A3.5"xB8.4"xC8.0" core, with 1.5" inlet/outlet to match the stock pipes. I was mostly interested in whether stepping up to a 2" in/out was worthwhile, and whether to go with a 3.5" or 4.5" core. I'm sending in a pair of stock intercoolers hopefully next week or the week after, and should have my new ones 2 weeks after they receive the stock samples. Quoted price was $509 each, plus freight.

They'll build you a core and tank to match whatever you'd like, but this setup should easily fit in the stock location and flow perfectly for my power goals, as well as being a good compromise between stock SMIC's and a FMIC, which I didn't want to do. Does anybody have flow numbers for the stock intercoolers?

get him to test the stock coolers for us will you? be keen to see how they shape up!

[mb7050]

For what it's worth, I contacted Bell a few weeks ago, with a few different ideas of what I'd like to do for intercoolers based on my setup (15G's and 560's). When all was said and done, I was recommended an A3.5"xB8.4"xC8.0" core, with 1.5" inlet/outlet to match the stock pipes. I was mostly interested in whether stepping up to a 2" in/out was worthwhile, and whether to go with a 3.5" or 4.5" core. I'm sending in a pair of stock intercoolers hopefully next week or the week after, and should have my new ones 2 weeks after they receive the stock samples. Quoted price was $509 each, plus freight.

They'll build you a core and tank to match whatever you'd like, but this setup should easily fit in the stock location and flow perfectly for my power goals, as well as being a good compromise between stock SMIC's and a FMIC, which I didn't want to do. Does anybody have flow numbers for the stock intercoolers?

good to know, would you share the part #´s for those so in the future fellow members could order that design from Bell easily.

some 3si member also send them his stockers but he went with 8x8x4.5 core and 2" in/out .

[apickle]

The core I'm using is A350084080, based on the dimensions. The cores alone are $217 each, plus the endtanks and fabrication work. 551cfm each @ 10psig, 1psig pressure drop across the core. I could have gotten better flow by increasing the B dimension (more channels through the core), but I was concerned about fitment in the stock locations. I'm hoping the stock shrouds will work to start, but I am planning on laying up some fiberglass or carbon-fiber shrouds later in the summer when I have spare time.

I'm not sure what they keep on file, as far as records to reproduce a custom setup. Parting with my extra set of stock cores for 2 weeks isn't a problem, the car itself is in storage. I won't be able to test-fit the new intercoolers until at least early April, but I'm pretty confident that there will be minimal modification to get them to fit.

I'll ask about having the stock coolers flow-tested while they're there. hopefully it wouldn't be too expensive.

[GTwizard]

I have done several CXracing and an Ohhnoo daul core. No matter what we install, we always make room for more unrestricked air flow. We cat away the back of the bumper so the FMIC does not cover the air inlet at the grill.
Heres a few pics of what we do. I like the CRx as you can drop the front pipe and leave an enmpty looking bay. OOh noos was good of you wish to keep all the clutter of stock pipes. Anyway, the pics are food for thought.
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/GTwizard/S6300524.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/GTwizard/S6304530.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/GTwizard/S6304572.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/GTwizard/S6305283.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/GTwizard/S6305319.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/GTwizard/S6305219.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/GTwizard/S6305274.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/GTwizard/S6305897.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/GTwizard/S6305907.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/GTwizard/S6306492.jpg

[apickle]

get him to test the stock coolers for us will you? be keen to see how they shape up!

I head back from my contact at Bell. They're building a new facility, but are working from a temporary shop until June. They won't be doing any flowtesting until they move to the new location, sadly.

On the plus side, I should have my new SMIC's sometime in the second week of March.

[MR2]

Ahh fair enough :)

I just got a quote on freight on my test core etc...just waiting till a few things sort them selves out and I might order it in a week or so.

[mb3000]

GT, I know this has probibly been pointed out before but I hope you fixed/ replaced that pan and stopped using Fram filters.

[GTwizard]

Silly. The pan is not dented, it's just the lighting, It looks wrinkled and dented but I assure you, just a trick of the lighting. And the frame is fine for the 40 minutes or so during brake in. I hate spending too much on a brake in filter. I think the frame is fine for that.
I do thank you for your concern. But I think you may have noticed I do pay attention to details. And that would be all of them. And yes, everyone brings this up about the filter and Pan. Come on guys. Really.
I do have some idea about what I'm doing.

[R/T93]

You need to photoshop that picture with a text bubble saying, "Its not dented" and then X out the Fram :)

[GTwizard]

First. I do not "photo shop". That is a "fake-thing" and I don't do "fake". I am not affraid that people know I use fram filters for break ins. I couldn't care less.
The only thing I need to do is,
Give my customers the "best that I can do".
Build their car to suite their needs,
Try to out shine the competition with origenality and quaility.
Produce a product that will "well over ride" all the customer's expectations.
And do it in a manner that is "like no other" and "personal to the customer".
No 2 cars that we build are ever alike. No 2 customers are ever alike.
But thanks for the input.

[mh3kgt]

I use a fram filter :suspect: gonna change out to purolator tho since I'm over my breakin period now

[YoshiBishi]

I use a fram filter :suspect: gonna change out to purolator tho since I'm over my breakin period now

Fram filter? I don't know if we can be friends anymore. :lol7:

I used to use Purolator and K&N ones on my 91 SL and I would always have lifter tick no matter what weight oil I used. I ended up getting an OEM filter and the lifter tick vanished.

[mh3kgt]

How much are the OEM filters compared to purolator?

[YoshiBishi]

Advanced Auto Parts has purolator pureones listed on sale for $5 now, retail $6.49

Mitsubishiparts.com has OEM ones listed for $4.64, retail $5.99

I typically buy them locally. I think I buy them for around $4 or $5 at my local Mitsubishi dealership.

[mh3kgt]

Too bad I don't have a mitsubishi dealership anywhere even remotely close to me :sad: I'd have to travel 3-4hrs to get to the nearest one. Lol I called the closest one yesterday to see if I qualify for the transfercase recall, and to see if I could just send them my tcase to inspect but he said they need the whole car, damn it

*EDIT* We do have a Dodge dealership in town tho...wonder if they'd have the same filter for a Stealth...if they will even admit they ever made a damn Stealth lol

[YoshiBishi]

3-4 hours to a dealship? Geez.. I have 3 within 30 minutes. Heck, 2 hours will get me to 3sx if I don't want to wait for shipping.

[mh3kgt]

lucky...

[MaxClass]

If you live where I do (Las Vegas) or places like Phoenix or Tucson where the temperature can easily reach 120+ in the summer and taking into mind that you will probably want to have A/C in your daily driver that’s a triple wammy.

With a FMIC your extracting heat from the compressed air from the turbos, sending it directly into the A/C core which is also trying its best to extract what heat it can from the refrigerant, that’s the second wammy and finally sending all the combined heat into your radiator. Add it all up starting with 120 degree air to start with and by the time it gets through the radiator and provides what little cooling effect it can and to top it all off it then dumps all the extracted heat from all three sources directly into the engine bay. That can not be a very good recipe for engine longevity.

Here’s a little thought that no one has come up with yet even though some of you may have thought about this. What about using a FMIC, getting rid of the radiator from ita front mounted location, keeping the SMIC’s and turning each of them into Side Mounted Radiators (SMR’s), each with their own fan. The fans can easily use the existing wiring system with extended wires.

Here’s the pluses.

First, there is no “Law” that states that the radiator has to be in one piece. That’s thinking inside the box.

Second, you end up with more room under the hood. If you have ever taken out the radiator and fans you know what I’m talking about.

Third, all of the engine heat you end up extracting will be dumped out the side fender wells instead of directly into the engine compartment. A pair of simple “Y” connectors will split water to both sides of the car and recombine it for return to the engine.

Forth, there will be nothing but fresh ambient air (non-reheated) going directly into each radiator core. An even better deal than with A/C.

Fifth, it may be possible to move the A/C core rearward some and increase the available room for a thicker FMIC with less height if that was desired.

I honestly can not think of any really good valid reasons why this can not be accomplished. Also, I see no reason why an inter-cooler can not be used as a radiator either. Aftermarket IC’s are aluminium and so are the radiators.

Anyone else out there that may see something like this as a viable alternative please chime in. With enough ideas batted around I think we can come up with a viable solution that could easily work for anyone.

Pro’s or Con’s welcome. Maybe this should be it’’s own thread.

If I'm crazy just say so. Must be old age.

[MaxClass]

Has anyone had any experience using the "Royal Purple" oil filter for our cars? According their web site they claim its the best filter you can put on your car. Not cheap but not over the top either. They have some really nice videos about it.

I am thinking of trying one after break-in on my new build.

[GTwizard]

Because of the royal purple cool aid they call oil, no one that loves there car should run that crap. So I would not trust anything else they sell. That purple crap has spun more bearing than any other lube on the market to date. That is way they have a class action law suite against them. Most synthetics today will last 10,000 hours before brake down, give or take. Royal purple is 30 minutes, and has been proven over and over again. As far as filters, we use only Wix brand once we toss out the brake in filter. Yes, they do cost a bit more. But oh well, so does good gas.
This thread covers a lot of good points about a lot of good R & D going on. I did wish to add a few more comments. Lets start with the picture of the OhhNoo FMIC as seen on that black RT TT. WE had fears about the upper section getting the same amount of air as the lower. I can say that while we where out for tuning, we picked up a plastic garbage bag in the road while driving down the highway and never saw it come out on the rear view mirror. It was in, around or under the car. Just not sure where. The next day I opened the hood to change out a bad BOV and found the bag. It was at the top of the fmic and wraped itself around the hood latch. Yep, that's air all the way to the top. The first 100 miles of the trip we average 194 deg water temps and was like 107 out that day. We trashed the BOV so had to finnish tuning that next week end. During the week, I had installed the RT TT air dam and found that my temps on this next trip never ever got above 184, and it was even hotter outside that day. Same 100 mile trip. Not bad for just installing the air dams. As far as radiator cooling, We have found that the stock works best over anything we have meesed with yet. Just an FYI. If anyone wishes to argue, not interested. I am not saying there are not good other rads, Just stating our finding. Have replace 4 stock rads, after pulling aftermarket ones, and over heating problems gone. Go figure.

[GTwizard]

.
Also, I see no reason why an inter-cooler can not be used as a radiator either. Aftermarket IC’s are aluminium and so are the radiators.

Pro’s or Con’s welcome. Maybe this should be it’’s own thread.

If I'm crazy just say so. Must be old age.

Inter cooler and radiators are not much alike. Not much at all, other than the location where you might put them. the IC is an air to air heat exchanger while a rad is water to air. They are not interchangable. I'm not going to go any farther with that other than to say I used to build heat exchangers.

[MR2]

If you live where I do (Las Vegas) or places like Phoenix or Tucson where the temperature can easily reach 120+ in the summer and taking into mind that you will probably want to have A/C in your daily driver that’s a triple wammy.

With a FMIC your extracting heat from the compressed air from the turbos, sending it directly into the A/C core which is also trying its best to extract what heat it can from the refrigerant, that’s the second wammy and finally sending all the combined heat into your radiator. Add it all up starting with 120 degree air to start with and by the time it gets through the radiator and provides what little cooling effect it can and to top it all off it then dumps all the extracted heat from all three sources directly into the engine bay. That can not be a very good recipe for engine longevity.

Here’s a little thought that no one has come up with yet even though some of you may have thought about this. What about using a FMIC, getting rid of the radiator from ita front mounted location, keeping the SMIC’s and turning each of them into Side Mounted Radiators (SMR’s), each with their own fan. The fans can easily use the existing wiring system with extended wires.

Here’s the pluses.

First, there is no “Law” that states that the radiator has to be in one piece. That’s thinking inside the box.

Second, you end up with more room under the hood. If you have ever taken out the radiator and fans you know what I’m talking about.

Third, all of the engine heat you end up extracting will be dumped out the side fender wells instead of directly into the engine compartment. A pair of simple “Y” connectors will split water to both sides of the car and recombine it for return to the engine.

Forth, there will be nothing but fresh ambient air (non-reheated) going directly into each radiator core. An even better deal than with A/C.

Fifth, it may be possible to move the A/C core rearward some and increase the available room for a thicker FMIC with less height if that was desired.

I honestly can not think of any really good valid reasons why this can not be accomplished. Also, I see no reason why an inter-cooler can not be used as a radiator either. Aftermarket IC’s are aluminium and so are the radiators.

Anyone else out there that may see something like this as a viable alternative please chime in. With enough ideas batted around I think we can come up with a viable solution that could easily work for anyone.

Pro’s or Con’s welcome. Maybe this should be it’’s own thread.

If I'm crazy just say so. Must be old age.

Let me know how that goes :) I guess it could work :)

[MaxClass]

OK, I'm showing my ignorance of IC's as radiators but that does not mean that two "Real Radiators" could not be found that could implement the idea as defined. I like the idea of directing heat away from the engine bay and still being able to keep the A/C for a daily driver when an FMIC is installed.

If there are after market radiators then one (two) can also be made that would fit the bill. They can also be even twice as thick as the stock units.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

instead of these elaborate solutions why not just get proper ducting and optimize your setup? I have perfectly functional A/C and no overheating at all. With the stock radiator my car would hit 230 and climbing with the a/c off (I shut off the ac after 220). With the 3sx single pass the hottest I ever see is 206.

[MaxClass]

Let me guess. Since you do not show your location I'll bet you don't live where the temperatures can reach 118+ on any summer day.

Your right though, I don't have a heating problem with the stock radiator here in Vegas but other 3S owners here with FMIC's do.

[IPD]

instead of these elaborate solutions why not just get proper ducting and optimize your setup? I have perfectly functional A/C and no overheating at all. With the stock radiator my car would hit 230 and climbing with the a/c off (I shut off the ac after 220). With the 3sx single pass the hottest I ever see is 206.

this. the 3sx single-pass is a MASSIVE improvement over stock.

[R/T93]

Everyone should get the 2" Koyo and be done with it....

[IPD]

the 2" koyo is pretty much the same as the 3sx single-pass; it's just more expensive. ;)

[GTwizard]

Try not to let ambiant air temps fool you. Even with a front mount, temps should be fine IF all you plastic is in place and your FMIC is not blocking the fascia intake opening. See this all the time. Poeple will have a 12 inch tall or more inter cooler dirrectly against the crash bar and than only getting air to half the cooler and again only half to the radiator If you are RT TT than make sure you run the air damn that sould be in place. It can make about a 15 Deg differance you know. And radiators get old. Just like you and I. Just because you rad does not leak, does not mean it's any good. Your idea of twin side radiators is not all that far fetched. Been there done that on a race truck. worked greate. But, these cars use what is called a mixing bowl style thermostat housing. If the flow rate of an after market rad is any lesser than what stock rad would be, than you will over heat. This happens with the dual pass. It is not that the dual pass won't cool, but more it is not as free flowing as stock, so the thermostat housing will tend to take water from the head (Again) rather than the radiator. Water always takes the easiest route. That being said, your cross over pipe between the 2 radiators will cause a flow restriction. Wether it is enough to cause over heating? Dunno. I have run the mint 400 in Vega in 1984 in a score 5 truck at 127 deg outside. So. I know a little about that hot dry air. Keep in mind that each front end will have different air flow charicturistics. The best underside plastics I have seen to increase air flow through the facia and suck air out the bottom of the bay is the RT TT air dam. You can always do ducting to bring more air in, but if it can not get out, it won't come in. This is called air stacking or stack up. so you can control stack up by doing things in, around, and under the car to help avoid stack up. or even create stack up in front of the car in order to drive more air in. Those front air splitters are perfect for that. Even at 60 and 70 MPH, your air flow can come to a hault real quick. The more vacuum you create under the car, the more air will be pulled through the front of the car. This is all food for thought. Each style front end acts a little differant. Everyones ideas will differ a little as we all have different coolers and we don't all mount them in the exact same location. So what works for me, may not work for you at all. But the ideas about what to do about getting more air flow will make a big differance for you. When I drive the NA, I drive hard hard. Last year at Indy I never had a heat issue even when over 100 deg outside and the tach at full red line for most the day. I never got above 175. And I only use 1 fan. (stock Drivers side) and stock radiator (auto). Fan is hot wired to Alt with relay. Hot wired fans move a ton more air, but that meens nothing at high speeds. I also make sure I can controll the amount of air that might bypass the inter cooler and go dirrectly to the radiator from below. I do this with a cover plate. If you are tt and have air temp sending unit, you can see the results of ducting, damming, and stacking air as the air temps and water temps climb or are reduced. I don't claim to be the best at this. Not at all. But am trying to share what we do, and/or what we have done in the past, to insure safe temps.
For those of you that are running high power motors like 900 + ponies and having over heating issues, the first thing I would do is add an electric race water pump to the outlet of the radiator. This will over ride the mixxing bowl as the moment the thermostat begins to open, the cool fresh water is forced in rather than being drown in by the stock pump. This makes it impossable for the water to be taken from the heads back to the stock pump and forces the hot water to the radiator. This is the set up Martial Taylor uses and was designed by NHRA engineers to over come the poor design of our thermostat housing. He was always blowing water at high boost and was told head lift many times over. And was not the case at all. His dual pass being just slightly more restrictive than stock caused most of his issues and a stock rad would have never cut the mustard. Pumps can be had through Summit raceing. There are a couple other peaces needed to complete this type of system, so PM if you ever have the need for this type of cooling. I can send pics and details.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Let me guess. Since you do not show your location I'll bet you don't live where the temperatures can reach 118+ on any summer day.

Your right though, I don't have a heating problem with the stock radiator here in Vegas but other 3S owners here with FMIC's do.

no, but we can hit 105 in southern missouri.

I'm not sure why you believe that putting 2 radiators with FAR less surface area is going to increase your cooling ability. Even with the other 2 heat exchangers in front of it, there is too much area lost by going to a sidemount setup. Besides the fact that there isn't a lot of room to safely route radiator hoses to both sides.

you know I think I'm being to harsh on your idea. I just believe the simplier is better most of the time and it is easier to "fix" the problems than invent an entierly new setup that is going to need a lot of R&D to work well.

[IPD]

i want to read that, but OUCH...paragraphs please.

[GTwizard]

Sorry about that. I tend to ramble sometimes. An english major I'm not. Just went back to look and yep. that is 1 tough FN read. Again sorry.

[MR2]

This may be the only time EVER that I agree with IPD.

[IPD]

really? am i THAT divisive? :suspect:

[MR2]

Try not to let ambiant air temps fool you. Even with a front mount, temps should be fine IF all you plastic is in place and your FMIC is not blocking the fascia intake opening. See this all the time. Poeple will have a 12 inch tall or more inter cooler dirrectly against the crash bar and than only getting air to half the cooler and again only half to the radiator If you are RT TT than make sure you run the air damn that sould be in place.
It can make about a 15 Deg differance you know. And radiators get old. Just like you and I. Just because you rad does not leak, does not mean it's any good.

Your idea of twin side radiators is not all that far fetched. Been there done that on a race truck. worked great! but these cars use what is called a mixing bowl style thermostat housing. If the flow rate of an after market rad is any lesser than what stock rad would be, than you will over heat. This happens with the dual pass. It is not that the dual pass won't cool, but more it is not as free flowing as stock, so the thermostat housing will tend to take water from the head (Again) rather than the radiator. Water always takes the easiest route.

That being said, your cross over pipe between the 2 radiators will cause a flow restriction. Wether it is enough to cause over heating? Dunno. I have run the mint 400 in Vega in 1984 in a score 5 truck at 127 deg outside. So. I know a little about that hot dry air. Keep in mind that each front end will have different air flow characteristics. The best underside plastics I have seen to increase air flow through the facia and suck air out the bottom of the bay is the RT TT air dam.

You can always do ducting to bring more air in, but if it can not get out, it won't come in. This is called air stacking or stack up. so you can control stack up by doing things in, around, and under the car to help avoid stack up. or even create stack up in front of the car in order to drive more air in.

Those front air splitters are perfect for that. Even at 60 and 70 MPH, your air flow can come to a hault real quick. The more vacuum you create under the car, the more air will be pulled through the front of the car. This is all food for thought. Each style front end acts a little differant. Everyones ideas will differ a little as we all have different coolers and we don't all mount them in the exact same location. So what works for me, may not work for you at all. But the ideas about what to do about getting more air flow will make a big differance for you. When I drive the NA, I drive hard hard. Last year at Indy I never had a heat issue even when over 100 deg outside and the tach at full red line for most the day. I never got above 175. And I only use 1 fan. (stock Drivers side) and stock radiator (auto). Fan is hot wired to Alt with relay.

Hot wired fans move a ton more air, but that meens nothing at high speeds. I also make sure I can control the amount of air that might bypass the intercooler and go directly to the radiator from below. I do this with a cover plate. If you are tt and have air temp sending unit, you can see the results of ducting, damming, and stacking air as the air temps and water temps climb or are reduced. I don't claim to be the best at this. Not at all. But am trying to share what we do, and/or what we have done in the past, to insure safe temps.

For those of you that are running high power motors like 900 + ponies and having over heating issues, the first thing I would do is add an electric race water pump to the outlet of the radiator. This will over ride the mixxing bowl as the moment the thermostat begins to open, the cool fresh water is forced in rather than being drown in by the stock pump. This makes it impossible for the water to be taken from the heads back to the stock pump and forces the hot water to the radiator.

This is the set up Martial Taylor uses and was designed by NHRA engineers to over come the poor design of our thermostat housing. He was always blowing water at high boost and was told head lift many times over. And was not the case at all. His dual pass being just slightly more restrictive than stock caused most of his issues and a stock rad would have never cut the mustard. Pumps can be had through Summit racing. There are a couple other peices needed to complete this type of system, so PM if you ever have the need for this type of cooling. I can send pics and details.

:)

an interesting read!

I've been tempted by a aftermarket electric waterpump...but where the hell to put it! :p

[mb7050]

what are your thoughts about this system?

They say their endurance race car will overheat without this system and it also improve the cooling efficiency of their radiators ...

http://www.pitroadm.com/public/COOLING%20PARTS/PARTS/DSC04172.JPG
http://www.pitroadm.com/public/COOLING%20PARTS/PARTS/breather_820%5B1%5D.gif

[IPD]

i thought that was only necessary to draw coolant out at high boost levels?

[mb7050]

thats right.

[mb7050]

I ran accross these old Trevors ducting pics. I thought I would share . Proper ductin is higly important and improper ducting is quite possibly the #1 reason for overheating issues.
http://members.cox.net/trevorlj/duct3.jpg
http://members.cox.net/trevorlj/duct4.jpg
http://members.cox.net/trevorlj/duct5.jpg
http://members.cox.net/trevorlj/duct6.jpg
http://members.cox.net/trevorlj/duct1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/trevorlj/duct2.jpg

you see this ducting allows some air to bypass the IC core..so it does not restrict the airflow to the radiator so much. this is something to think about. its a wise decision IMO. You see in most cases FMIC cools so efficiently that you can let some air to bypass the intercooler thus improving your radiator efficiency.. its a balancing act

[MR2]

yeah good find :)

[mb7050]

Here are some ideas to improve cooling in general as mentioned before . (Also better aerodynamics)

Vented hood: you want to have a bit of a lift in front of the vents so it creates a low pressure area behind it.
(more air out = more air in) :
http://www.bodykitwiki.com/w/images/4/4a/Mitsubishi-3000gt-pit-road-m-carbon-fiber-hood-hood-white-01.jpg
http://www.deftracing.com/carbon_fiber_hoods/images/carbon_fiber_hood_94-99_mitsubishi_3000gt_ts_3.jpg

Underbody: Some good designs.
http://tinyurl.com/ydhwf4q
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_s8Mh194qw0E/TSOikzXiOLI/AAAAAAAAEU0/nZjbwYKoDEs/s400/webimage.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/yflds9l
http://tinyurl.com/yjchu9k


Front splitter: forces the air into the coolers (more air in = more air out)
http://www.3sx.com/store/catalog/blparts-front-splitter-12-600l.jpg

then there also the performance aspects, such as drag, down force, etc. etc

[mb7050]

Good info:

http://tinyurl.com/yzvml5a

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/186/422044111_7d2407548c.jpg

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/12/2009/11/eb471c58da57dc68e2498d71286784d7/340x.jpg
http://www.madpsi.net/Aero-kits/MadPSI/Rear%20Diffuser/Madpsi%20-%20F430%20Underbody.jpg

http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/aerodynamic2.jpg
The colors here actually indicate air velocity, but since air speed is related to pressure (Bernoulli affect) it gives you a general idea of the air pressure contours. Blue areas are areas of low airspeed (hence positive air pressure) and the red areas are low (or negative) air pressure. Notice that at the base and center of the windshield, you have hardly any air movement at all. In fact, in this area the air is actually moving backwards into the A/C intake vents that are at the base of the windshield. This is why the A/C vents are placed at this location, and that's why at high speeds, even with the air off, you can feel air flowing out of your A/C vents. The air is being forced into the vents at the windshield because the pressure there is higher than the pressure inside the cabin (which is close to atmospheric with the windows open).

[mb7050]

Also the front bumper design matters bigger openings (more air in = more air out)

OEM designs 99´ wins .

[MR2]

well, for the record I'm not a fan of venting back under the car....definitly prefer it to go out a vented hood (why I bought the Scoote II) and for the 5 hours I had it attached a LOT of heat came out of it.

[mb7050]

yeah me neither but I also hate aftermarket hoods (due to the shitty fitment ):)

[mb7050]

and I´m also wondering how to make my vented ´widebody´ fenders functional

interesting:http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=324009&st=0

[mb7050]

mmmmmmm R35´s underbody
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_8MPCKJQzPA8/RxemrlLRaNI/AAAAAAAAEmY/18zq_Ox51PA/08.nissan.skyline.gtr.tech.underbody.3.500.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_8MPCKJQzPA8/RxemrVLRaMI/AAAAAAAAEmQ/jlDwyLg8AB8/08.nissan.skyline.gtr.tech.underbody.2.500.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_8MPCKJQzPA8/RxemrVLRaLI/AAAAAAAAEmI/_9WUwhFrIlY/08.nissan.skyline.gtr.tech.underbody.1.500.jpg
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=viewimage&img=572593


http://www.suzukaracing.com/GTR%20page/racetoroadgtr.pdf

[TT Eric]

I didn't read the whole thread cause I didn't catch it form the start. But from my experience, I was a true believer of the SMIC and didn't want to go FMIC.

First I went from stock SMIC to DSMIC, then to Dejon SMIC, then Gene's SMIC and finnaly ended up with ETS FMIC at last. And now I can say that I should have gone right away for the ETS at first.

From one set-up to another I was able to run more boost before getting knock each time, but when I went with ETS FMIC it made a huge step up front, I need to say I made some other mods in the same time, it could affect a bit the results, but all in all the FMIC was the makor mode and now it allows me to run a lot more boost on pump gas.

The only downsides I saw with going to FMIC is to have lost a bit of spool-up* and some pressure pulsing at part throttle. If I was to make my car a lapping car, SMIC would have been a better choice, but for all other application FMIC is the way to go IMO.

* As soon as I went with DR-ARC2, I gained back more spool-up then what I had lost before. Now I can almost say my turbos are spooling too fast for the car.

Eric

[mb7050]

I think the FMIC vs SMIC depate is more personal preference than anything else.
+1 for ETS fmic

[mb7050]

but I truly feel ETS should have done dual inlet since they used core that big (26x12x3.5)..
ie
http://www.pitroadm.com/public/COOLING%20PARTS/PARTS/DSC00040.JPG
http://www.pitroadm.com/public/COOLING%20PARTS/PARTS/DSC00018.JPG
vs
http://www.extremeturbosystems.com/images/3000GT-Intercooler-Kit-6.jpg

[IPD]

well, for the record I'm not a fan of venting back under the car....definitly prefer it to go out a vented hood (why I bought the Scoote II) and for the 5 hours I had it attached a LOT of heat came out of it.

one of the things i really LOVE about this hood (the other being that it flows better with a 3/s than the top-secret/gt300, imho). maybe i can get scoob to splice it into a stock hood so i can have the best of all worlds. :)


Also the front bumper design matters bigger openings (more air in = more air out)

OEM designs 99´ wins .

and the top 1/3 of that opening is fake. it's simply covering the crashbar which would be exposed by the opening. for those who want to keep the stock crashbar w/o modifying it--i'd say that the 97-98 bumper with the center post cut out is probably equivalent.

[mb7050]

Tubular Crash Bars / Bumpers 3000GT / Stealth*-*Mitsubishi 3000GT*/*Dodge Stealth Parts (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=29422)
just pointing it out- :)

[IPD]

yes, and if you're going to do that, you'll probably end up cutting your bumper anyway; which begs the question, why start with a 99?

see the problem here is that we have quantified results from switching from SMIC to FMIC, as was posted above. what we DON'T have is quantified results from switching from 97-98 to 99 bumper WITH THE SAME FMIC setup.

my guess? there might be a difference...but it's so small that it's inconsequential. you'd have to remove the crashbar cover and either cut the crashbar or put in the tubular one. i'm not going to do either one on a DD; so i stand by my original assertion.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

there is no question that the 99 opening is the largest once the crashbar cover is cut out. If you like the 97-98 bumper more and would rather keep it, that is fine, but if all you care about is the best cooling then the cut 99 is the only way to go for factory bumper covers.

The 99 crashbar cover can be cut without any paintwork, there is no way you can cut up a 97-98 cover to be as big without bodywork and new paint.

There is no need to justify your desire to keep your current bumper, it is personal preference.

[mb7050]

then there are aftermarket bumpers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JYIiszMbTU&feature=player_embedded

[IPD]

forest, i agree 100%. my assertion was purely that if you're going to keep the crashbar completely unmolested, the difference between the two (or even between any of the 2g 3kgt bumpers) is rather negligable. the 94-96 bumper actually has a WIDER front opening than the 97-99's. (stealths obviously have the crosshair which blocks a lot of airflow).

once you decide on airflow > everything else; there's no question that the 99 makes the most sense, at least as far as how much modification you'll have to do.

[mb7050]

or how bout cut the bumper like this, little fiber here and there to smooth it out .
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5662/63523917.jpg
then add a splitter .
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m313/YoungGigolo123/P1010557.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m313/YoungGigolo123/P1010561-1.jpg

[mb7050]

idk. it probably wouldn't look good

[mb7050]

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8794/amnesia.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m313/YoungGigolo123/P1010562-1.jpg
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/1058/amnesia2.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m313/YoungGigolo123/P1010558-1.jpg

i had to try :)

[CoopKill]

Not that great of PS, but put front mount in there and it looks good...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_dcIEIvS3Pfc/TWHN_8HctKI/AAAAAAAAKss/K6qGnXO02qE/s640/P1010561-1.jpg

[CoopKill]

lol, beat me...

[IPD]

then there are aftermarket bumpers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JYIiszMbTU&feature=player_embedded

that's a cut 94-96. trust me. :)


http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8794/amnesia.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m313/YoungGigolo123/P1010562-1.jpg
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/1058/amnesia2.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m313/YoungGigolo123/P1010558-1.jpg

i had to try :)

i'll be doing something along those lines with mine; only i hope to use a lip as well. :)

[MR2]

the loosing of the middle mouth of the car looks ok, I recon I'd go with those air channels that steal air from the center opening and route it around to the Side area myself :)

there are a lot of cars with bugger all front opening and they seem to cool just fine so I don't think the actual size of the front opening is that big of a deal.

the splitter I WOULD consider as useful...maybe even some sort of splitter equivelant just above the front opening too (as weird as that would be)

[mb7050]

that's a cut 94-96. trust me. :)



cut or not but i think it looks prety good

[DG]

It's not about air in, it is about air out.

Intercoolers work in two modes: you get the "heat sink" mode where the heat energy from the intake charge is used to heat up the metal structure of the intercooler, and you get the "heat exchanger" mode when the intercooler passes its heat to the air stream passing through it.

FMICs make great heat sinks, because they are large and massive. There's a lot of aluminum in the fins and tanks, and it takes a fair amount of heat to warm all that metal up. For short bursts of power, they work fantastic and they don't even need to be exposed to the free airstream to work.

But once they heat up, they suck at the heat exchanger mode for everything except idle. At idle, the rad fans pull air through them and that helps cool them down. Once you get moving, the air exit path is so crappy (doubly so if they aren't properly ducted and sealed, as 99% of them are not) that you don't get anywhere near the heat exchange that they could theoretically support, especially if they exhaust (as 99% of them do) into the engine water cooler opening.

And if it does exhaust into the water cooler opening, you impact engine cooling as well.

SMICs typically don't do as good a job as heat sinks, because they have less mass and so heat up faster. But they can have much better exhaust flow paths (dumping into the low pressure area in the wheel well) and so can function much better as heat exchangers - plus they don't poison the engine cooling air.

For a drag car, you run the biggest FMIC you can. For a street or road race car, you run the biggest SMICs you can, and you pay extra special care to exhaust ducting. And for bonus points, you run a water mist sprayer keyed to air outlet temps to try and stretch the heat sink mode through the use of latent heat of evaporation.

Mouth size makes almost no difference, as it takes only 1/3rd the area of the cooling surface area to feed enough air in - read up on duct design to see why.

DG

[MR2]

See :) told you.

what DOES help with regards to the air dam in front of your IC is the depth and size of the chamber...I'm told the larger the chamber the greater pressure it developes? also I imagine with some careful adjustments of how the air flows you could do quite a few good things to increase the pressure before the IC's...


funny how the FMIC Vs SMIC threads always get to 14+ pages! :p

[mb7050]

the looks man.

[mb7050]

, it is about air out.



Mouth size makes almost no difference, as it takes only 1/3rd the area of the cooling surface area to feed enough air in - read up on duct design to see why.

DG

allright then.
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/792/rewrwrerew.jpg

[mh3kgt]

That looks sweet :) Now I really can't decide between 97-99 conversion

[mb7050]

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/2862/ewwqewqqwewqe.jpg

im dreaming

[MR2]

wow, NOW we're cooking with Gas.

that would not leave much room for my FMIC oil cooler though.

[YoshiBishi]

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/2862/ewwqewqqwewqe.jpg

im dreaming

What we doing, a Chaparral 2J?

http://ashcom.homestead.com/files/RMH3257W.jpg

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

What we doing, a Chaparral 2J?

http://ashcom.homestead.com/files/RMH3257W.jpg

man that thing rocked in GT4, if only it had more than 3 gears! She was a top end machine if you setup 3rd REALLY long.

[YoshiBishi]

I'm trying to get that car in GT5, but it costs around 15mil I think... :(

[mb7050]

http://robson.m3rlin.org/cars/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/chevrolet_corvett_race_car-copy.jpg
http://www.automobilesreview.com/uploads/2009/04/911-gt3-rsr-farnbacher-loles-racing.jpg
http://vehicle-pedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/porsche_917k_le-mans.jpeg
http://members.chello.nl/j.kolk2/Sportcars/hasegawa-cc12.jpg
http://www.simracing.cz/images/press/2010_2011_1990SWC_Preview/Mazda_787B.jpg
http://www.musclecars.net/parts/parts-images-large/1-24-built-mazda-787b-1991-le-mans-winner-tamiya_120652081198.jpg
http://image63.webshots.com/63/6/11/51/481161151SOhJMe_fs.jpg
http://www.classycars.org/Ferrari/ferrari.fxx1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Honda_NSX_Le_Mans_Racer.JPG/800px-Honda_NSX_Le_Mans_Racer.JPG
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_SM9A_sqVGgM/SdZyCqSQrVI/AAAAAAAAAO8/W5VmE4WApKw/s400/Audi+R8+GT3+6.jpg
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00839/motoring-graphics-2_839542a.jpg
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/792/rewrwrerew.jpg

[YoshiBishi]

Well played sir, well played.

[mh3kgt]

Fixed :p
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f393/mhaggard_87/evil_rewrwrerew.jpg

[DG]

Except, of course, that most of those cars are rear engine.

I've seen that Compuware Corvette in person - the P&M shop was just up the road from mine, and I used to buy their old parts from them. The engine in that car is in the front, but it is set back so far that half the motor is under the windshield glass. The radiator is completely ducted to that vent in the hood - as in, there is sheet aluminum ducting that seals the back end of the radiator to the duct in the hood so that there is no way the exhaust air can go anywhere except out the duct.

On that 3000GT, even with that huge vent, the outflow air from the radiator dumps onto the engine block, and that disrupts the flow path. Most of the exhaust air will still go under the car, not out the vent, unless there is ductwork on the backside of the rad to seal it to the vent - and good luck packaging that.

You cant set back the engine to gain clearance (and a better CG) because the engine/transmission is tied to the front axle centreline.

Incidentally, the picture in the sig - the Photoshopped line-art thing - shows exactly what I am talking about when it comes to poorly ducted FMICs. There are huge gaps on both sides of the end tanks that are basically giant airflow leaks. Almost all the air coming into the front end of that car is going to flow through those gaps, because air always takes the path of least resistance. That FMIC is a great heat sink, but a crappy heat exchanger. The gaps probably help keep the car from overheating though, as they will probably be feeding the radiator.

DG

[IPD]

i agree. and yet...every time someone has gone from smics to fmic, they've posted better dyno numbers. just saying.

[MR2]

Who knows! most track racers I know are running FMIC so nfi

[i3igpete]

i agree. and yet...every time someone has gone from smics to fmic, they've posted better dyno numbers. just saying.

thats mostly due to the reduced friction loss with the larger cross section area. here's the original post from brian g (I think thats his name).

DSM Sidemount Intercooler Testing - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/dsm-sidemount-intercooler-testing-429164/)

DSM intercoolers drop 5.5 psi at the top end when you're running ~17 psi before the core. Keep in mind that DSM smic's already have about twice the cross flow area of the stock SMIC's.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/FWombat/ICPresureLoss.jpg

With a greddy FMIC, the drop is ~1.5psi at the top end. Also, because the drop is less, the boost controller doesn't have to "hunt" to find the correct duty cycle. boost pressure is much more steady.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/FWombat/GreddyICPressureLoss.jpg

[DG]

Of course they see better dyno numbers - a dyno pull is a short burst of power, so the FMIC is fully in "heat sink" mode the entire time. Most FMICs will have way more thermal mass than SMICs (certainly better than the OEM SMICs) so they perform better.

Pressure drop is largely a function of core and end tank design; neither location has a real theoretical advantage, although it does take a little more thought to build a free-flowing SMIC setup than a FMIC.

FMICs work, but typically, they are hacks - they DO make better power, but don't get anywhere near their full capability. Properly engineered SMICs can produce the same power levels, plus they work better as heat exchangers, plus they don't impact engine cooling the way a FMIC can.

I'll say it again - short bursts of power, go FMIC. Extended use (street or track use) go SMIC.

DG

[IPD]

fair enough. my car will still be a daily, and will only occasionally see any track/drag use. FMIC for me.

[MR2]

I think if you had an identical amount of pipework that SMIC's would have less lag too.

[mb7050]

thats mostly due to the reduced friction loss with the larger cross section area. here's the original post from brian g (I think thats his name).

DSM Sidemount Intercooler Testing - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/dsm-sidemount-intercooler-testing-429164/)

DSM intercoolers drop 5.5 psi at the top end when you're running ~17 psi before the core. Keep in mind that DSM smic's already have about twice the cross flow area of the stock SMIC's.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/FWombat/ICPresureLoss.jpg

With a greddy FMIC, the drop is ~1.5psi at the top end. Also, because the drop is less, the boost controller doesn't have to "hunt" to find the correct duty cycle. boost pressure is much more steady.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/FWombat/GreddyICPressureLoss.jpg

this comparison is kinda stupid. See hes running different sized pipes and unknown piping configuration and different sized cores so many variations that you can´t really do equal comparison.

however this does prove that he had a bad combination of parts when he tested the dsm smics :)

[mb7050]

If we are looking at the flow only




For ten feet of 1.5"-diameter smooth pipe, calculations using the web pages noted above suggest that pressure loss should be about 1.2 psi at 15 psi boost (near sea level), 360 cfm (before compression) flow (in each half of our IC system), with an air temperature of 200ºF.

A 2"-diameter pipe could flow about 720 cfm (before compression) with a pressure drop of about 1.1 psi, about the same as a 1.5"-diameter pipe flowing only 360 cfm (before compression). So at the same pressure loss the 2-inch pipe will flow about twice as much air as the 1.5-inch pipe .


Then you add bends into the configuration and you have unknown outcome, every bend restricts flow and increases pressure drop.



http://www.stealth316.com/2-ic.htm

[mb7050]

Except, of course, that most of those cars are rear engine.

I've seen that Compuware Corvette in person - the P&M shop was just up the road from mine, and I used to buy their old parts from them. The engine in that car is in the front, but it is set back so far that half the motor is under the windshield glass. The radiator is completely ducted to that vent in the hood - as in, there is sheet aluminum ducting that seals the back end of the radiator to the duct in the hood so that there is no way the exhaust air can go anywhere except out the duct.

You cant set back the engine to gain clearance (and a better CG) because the engine/transmission is tied to the front axle centreline.



DG

yes but all the jtcc, jgtc/super gt and german touring cars have hood vents alike and most of those cars have front engine layouts .
yes
yes

[mb7050]

I've seen that Compuware Corvette in person - the P&M shop was just up the road from mine, and I used to buy their old parts from them. The engine in that car is in the front, but it is set back so far that half the motor is under the windshield glass. The radiator is completely ducted to that vent in the hood - as in, there is sheet aluminum ducting that seals the back end of the radiator to the duct in the hood so that there is no way the exhaust air can go anywhere except out the duct.

On that 3000GT, even with that huge vent, the outflow air from the radiator dumps onto the engine block, and that disrupts the flow path. Most of the exhaust air will still go under the car, not out the vent, unless there is ductwork on the backside of the rad to seal it to the vent - and good luck packaging that.



DG

all in all we are not building le mans winner here, but I "think" proper ducting could be done to ensure that if not all but atleast most of the exhaust air goes out the duct :)

this is a radical example
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1210/1228252573_e87324e619.jpg

[mb7050]

another radical example
(v mount in this case
intercooler
>
radiator
).
http://image.superstreetonline.com/f/17462881+w750+st0/130_0608_23_z+subaru_wrx_sti+engine_bay.jpg
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3201/imprezawrc05engine2bkhn7.jpg

[i3igpete]

this comparison is kinda stupid. See hes running different sized pipes and unknown piping configuration and different sized cores so many variations that you can´t really do equal comparison.


that's EXACTLY the point. he had the two most common configurations available to a 3/s owner. a dsm fmic with factory piping, or the greddy fmic. You don't just buy the cores, you buy the cores and pipes.

From what I gather, your "proper" comparison would be to use a single smic in the front... or use two giant fmic cores on the side. Is that correct?

[mb7050]

From what I gather, your "proper" comparison would be to use a single smic in the front... or use two giant fmic cores on the side. Is that correct?

yes ... and same/similar sized IC pipes and similar sized IC cores this is important for a fair comparison ...

of course a setup utilizing considerably smaller ICs, IC pipes and smaller IC cores have more pressure drop :rolleyes:

[i3igpete]

if you can set that up, I would love to see it.

[mb7050]

So people how could we improve exhaust air flow path in smic configuration ? Mr2 you had some ideas ? please share . I think that widebody vented fenders can be functional afterall since the air from behind smics leads inside the front fenders too..
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/4563/26157380023large.jpg

shitty cameraphone pics sorry about that :)
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9423/imag0155kw.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1641/imag0156d.jpg
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6027/imag0157u.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/514/imag0158j.jpg
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/8541/imag0159v.jpg

[mb7050]

that's EXACTLY the point. he had the two most common configurations available to a 3/s owner. a dsm fmic with factory piping, or the greddy fmic. You don't just buy the cores, you buy the cores and pipes.



I really like the last post, it pretty much sums it all.

I think I have to disagree with OP and this testing procedure.

Also the comments about 10 feet of 1.5" pipe creating a certain amount of restriction regard a STRAIGHT pipe. Every bend kills flow. Then take 1.5" pipe, add bends, you have a a terrible outcome.

Measuring right after the turbo and then at the intake manifold is just a terrible test. Make all the excuses you want but its a terrible test.

Now on a FMIC with 3" piping, yeah, its not a big deal on a 400-500hp car.

To explain how stupid the comparison is, the total flow area of a 1.5" pipe is 1.7 square inches. Two of them is 3.4 square inches.
3" piping is 7square inches.

Is anyone seeing how stupid of a comparison this is?

Weld 2.25 in and out on these things and replace all the piping with the proper size before saying the intercooler CORE has anything to do with the restriction.
As someone else said, a restrictive core can be caused by a high number of turbulators which help remove heat.

Then you come to the reality of core sizes.
Two DSM cores = about a single 16" tall 3.5" thick FMIC. More flowpath then a 12" tall 4" deep FMIC.

So when it comes to actual flowpath, the sidemounts have more flowpath. If they have more turbulators then that means superior temp drop.

THEN still, the sidemounts have a shorter core length. Having 12-18" longer tubes does NOT increase cooling ability, it just increases restriction. Its always better to double flowpath instead of double length of the core. Long intercooler cores are pretty much a bling item that hurts power.

So i disagree on the usefullness of the test results except in showing the obvious. A bad combination of parts = bad result.

People use DSM cores to build custom intercoolers, and not because they are junk. I want to find 3 or 4 of them myself....err did. I can buy a normal long core and cut it in half for nice and cheap and "double" the flowpath while still having 11" long tubes which is plenty.

[i3igpete]

I still don't quite understand what your point is. he is testing the system as a whole: pipes and cores. this is most representative of what is going on in the system. larger pipes and less friction losses is one of the advantages to going FMIC. you wouldn't connect a FMIC core to 1.5" pipe going in and out, would you? similarly, it's physically impossible to feed 3" pipes to each SMIC core. So you have to take the total system change as a whole, both pipes and core.

furthermore, i don't know why you are arguing with me about core dimensions. core cross flow area and flowpath length are two different things, notice that I'm only pointing out core cross flow area is larger, which leads to lower friction losses (the exact same thing you are quoting, but he is saying it verbosely).

[mb7050]

furthermore, i don't know why you are arguing with me about core dimensions. core cross flow area and flowpath length are two different things, notice that I'm only pointing out core cross flow area is larger, which leads to lower friction losses (the exact same thing you are quoting, but he is saying it verbosely).

I don´t want to argue with you, because there is no reason..

[mb7050]

I still don't quite understand what your point is. he is testing the system as a whole: pipes and cores. this is most representative of what is going on in the system. larger pipes and less friction losses is one of the advantages to going FMIC. you wouldn't connect a FMIC core to 1.5" pipe going in and out, would you? similarly, it's physically impossible to feed 3" pipes to each SMIC core. So you have to take the total system change as a whole, both pipes and core.


My point is if your going to compare two systems you take systems that are equally comparable. Not some hacked DSM ic setup w stock pipes vs purposely build Greddy fmic kit w larges pipes it's not fair comparison at all .

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

do the louvers in the front inner fenders really flow that well? I understand there may be a low pressure area there, but the flow path is really restricted by the inner fenders.

[i3igpete]

My point is if your going to compare two systems you take systems that are equally comparable. Not some hacked DSM ic setup w stock pipes vs purposely build Greddy fmic kit w larges pipes it's not fair comparison at all .

how is it not a fair comparison? you can't use either core without the appropriate pipes.

[mb7050]

DN hard pipe kit ... they are 2" pipes just like the hotside pipes that come with the Greddy kit (have been around for a
long time) certainly available back in 2008

you could easily use 2.25" pipes with smics if you really need to ...

[i3igpete]

show me how to fit 2.25" pipes past the a/c drier

[mb7050]

remove / relocate, cut if necessary :)

but for most 2" is enough and those you can certainly fit "easily" :)

[mb7050]

ok mayby i shouldn´t have said easily
atlest the other side have more room

btw. those are 2.5" pipes
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8941/imag0163g.jpg

[mb7050]

Stock system
http://www.extremeturbosystems.com/images/3000GT-Intercooler-Kit-7.jpg

DN hard pipes (2" piping)
http://www.ipsmotorsports.net/images/DNPsmicPiping.gif

Greddy FMIC
http://www.pitroadm.com/public/COOLING%20PARTS/PARTS/l.jpg

"equally comparable" Greddy FMIC kit vs DN hard pipes (2") and lets say gene´s sidemounts or bell (8x8x4.5) 2" in/out sidemounts there you have it a fair comparison .

[mb7050]

do the louvers in the front inner fenders really flow that well?

my common sense tells me those small louvers can´t flow much

[MR2]

I do wonder if you really need bigger than 2" pipes...Matt was pulling 700hp on his stock 1.5" pipes....

[MR2]

So people how could we improve exhaust air flow path in smic configuration ? Mr2 you had some ideas ? please share . I think that widebody vented fenders can be functional afterall since the air from behind smics leads inside the front fenders too..


you won't like it...my idea's involve butchering the side of the front bumper...to put louvers in it....well, a vent anyway, just have a sharp edge on the front of the vent and it'll create a large low pressure zone...basically dumps air out the side of the car not into the tyrewell. I've never had a chance to test just how low the pressure is in the tyrewell/behind the SMIC but I suspect pushing it out the side with the right design of vent will get you more air removal capability.

[mb7050]

ok, I was thinking to vent the air inside the wheel wells .

[IPD]

i have to say i agree with pete. i usually agree with pete because he's a much smarter cookie than i am. :)

my fmic has a 3" in, so we'll see how it goes. the number of 3/s owners with 2"+ smic piping probably be counted on 2 fingers. the onus is on THOSE guys to convert the rest of us. fwiw, i don't believe a hard-pipe kit & some dsm smics is going to outperform a good FMIC.

[IPD]

i have to say i agree with pete. i usually agree with pete because he's a much smarter cookie than i am. :)

my fmic has a 3" in, so we'll see how it goes. the number of 3/s owners with 2"+ smic piping probably be counted on 2 fingers. the onus is on THOSE guys to convert the rest of us. fwiw, i don't believe a hard-pipe kit & some dsm smics is going to outperform a good FMIC.

[mb7050]

i have to say i agree with pete. i usually agree with pete because he's a much smarter cookie than i am. :)

my fmic has a 3" in, so we'll see how it goes. the number of 3/s owners with 2"+ smic piping probably be counted on 2 fingers. the onus is on THOSE guys to convert the rest of us. fwiw, i don't believe a hard-pipe kit & some dsm smics is going to outperform a good FMIC.

Dn hard pipes are 2" pipes there are MANY running them.. DSM sidemounts propably wont perform good thats why i said gene´s or bell´s sidemounts would be better choise for fair comparison.

[i3igpete]

why are dsm's sidemounts not a good comparison? they're certainly larger than the stock ones. it'll be impossible for you to find side mounts with the same volume and/or cross flow area just based on space restrictions - which is why people give up on this difficult (and expensive) quest for large side mount.

[MR2]

FMIC generally will work....just need to look at Vertical core stuff....

[MR2]

show me how to fit 2.25" pipes past the a/c drier

use the rubber couplers as it goes past that joint + cut some of the metal work...the pipe being rubber would not need to be round and should make it past :)

you got any good ways to relocate the freezer dryer? I hate where it is.

[mb7050]

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6383/img0519ne.jpg
just for the record this is a 8x8.1x4.6 core in the exact same position as oem sidemount you can just bolt factory shrouds to them etc. core size like this is supeer easy fit . (ignore the dual pass design it sucks)
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4305/imag0164r.jpg
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3308/imag0166w.jpg

this is a DSM ic in the same location
http://oi54.tinypic.com/facxas.jpg
and here is a 6" thick gt alley ic in the same location
http://oi53.tinypic.com/2gvnecy.jpg

[mb7050]

it'll be impossible for you to find side mounts with the same volume and/or cross flow area just based on space restrictions

no it isnt all that hard,there is actually plenty of room .

[oohnoo]

Once I get done with a few projects of my own I'll be looking into making reasonably priced side mounts. When I made the DSM ones back in the day I offered them with oem pipes or 1 3/4" piping to mate up with the DNPerformance pipes as those start out as 2" but taper down to 1 3/4" on the ends. On my own car with stock bottom end/heads put down 441awhp on pump and 551awhp on race gas before running out of fuel pump using a piggyback setup. Those should work on 80% of the cars out there. I do believe the larger DN pipes made it flow better then oem which I'm sure helped alot.
DSM SMIC IC's -6 x 8 x 3-7/8" thick for a volume of 186 cu. in. each x 2 = 372 cu. in. total. Only difference with these and the Bell cores are that they're tube/fin design vers bar/plate.

If anyone has any sizes they have in mind just let me know so I can get an idea of what to start with.

[mb7050]

you can easily cut the ends and you have 2" piping all the way.


not all cores flow or cool the same .

beware of the cheap chinese tube fin cores ie. pic below(there are also shitty bar plate cores out there).
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4313/imag0169b.jpg



Chinese Intercoolers
I've tried to stay out of this as long as I could otherwise it would come over as blatant sour grapes, but there is now enough knowledge & enough people have been caught to substantiate my findings & most importantly, the rush of blood from both sides (particularly on forums) has mellowed abit. There are allot of myths, doing the forums in particular, ranging from close to right, too downright ridicules, so I will try to keep to facts.


1) Our intercooler sales are down near 60% to what they were 2 years ago, so they wounded our business for a while. However our intercooler dollar turnover is only down 20%, because we are making more thicker units for the higher powered cars that are being built, & our air-water sales are increasing too.


2) ARE can not have a core made in Australia within $90.00 of what we can SELL a complete Chinese unit for. I saw an SBS documentary on Wal Mart in USA's purchasing policies & they stated that a Chinese factory worker is paid as little as $0.78 per hour. $20.00 per hour is an average type wage in this business & what ticks me is that a whole heap of the Aust. workforce (Doctors. IT, etc.) would not even work for 100 times the Chinese wage. Lets not even mention 4 weeks annual leave with 17% loading.


3) Not all Chinese intercoolers are created equal. I can not stress this enough ! They do not come from the same factory. There are at least 8 factories that have contacted us with total different addresses & then there are different named companies within these addresses, which is how some flaunt the copyright laws that western compan - ies must abide by. A couple of factories make very good units, some are okay, & some are downright bad. To complicate purchasing further, some size intercoolers from the same factory are good & other sizes bad. How do I know this, we tested some 75mm units from an importer, which came up good in all aspects & unfortunately for us quite good in a couple of aspects, so they represented excellent value. We have sold a few of these without one complaint. They also imported some 90mm & 100mm intercoolers from the same factory. After getting some returned with vocal complaints because power output & response dropped when these were fitted (often replacing a 75mm unit), they sent one each up to me for testing. Just looking at them showed a close fin pitch. Results are listed below. We are talking all bar-plate construction with these imported intercoolers. The sad part of all this is there is no way of accurately listing who's who, most factories will stamp any name onto there product!

Intercooler - Size Type Flow Rate-corrected Notes.
Chinese 600x300x90mm. Bar-Plate - 3" inlet. 299.3 cfm
Chinese 600x300 x100mm. Bar-Plate - 3" inlet. 330.9 cfm.
ARE-610x302x91mm. Tube-Fin - 3" inlet 471.4 cfm.
ARE-610x302x91mm Tube-Fin - 3" inlet 493.3 cfm. With our optional venturie plate option


4) A few intercoolers have weeps, or sometimes leaks, out of the box, which makes me think that they will develop more leaks ( maybe even if they don't have any when new) early in their life, with the rigors of hot-cold / press-ure - vacuum cycling of normal use.

5) Our testing & feedback from some reputable dyno shops suggest that the majority of Chinese 'coolers do a good job up to the point of being worked hard & then gains exponentially taper off. A couple of years ago, they generally had a basic fin design @ a course pitch in a small 'tube', meaning they had a low pressure drop but not good cooling efficiency, so do a good job for an engine with an efficient turbo operating in the low-middle of it's efficiency map. Try & run too much boost & they will 'choke' & pressure drop will soar. The later trend seems to be much closer fin pitch, but still in a small 'tube', restricting flow even more, & worse still 'choke' more at a comparative lower boost. The closer fin pitch which gives better cooling rates, would only increase performance if the tube length was shorter, as the cooling efficiency quickly exponentially decreases (we have placed probes @ 100mm increments along tubes of both air-air & dry ice intercoolers) & the pressure drop (more slowly) exponentially increases along the length of a tube, meaning there is a 'sweet spot' where cooling rate & pressure drop give maximum performance. Sorry guys, but our parchment 'for big is better' philosophy & the fact that the Chinese factories don't seem to have much technical inkling of how an intercooler works, means that allot of purchases will never give near the gains possible & some, well, they're just a waste of your 'cheap money' !!!


6) They really have there place in the market, are very good for anyone seeking a moderate power gain with a limited budget & for more gains than this, become increasingly more difficult to gauge if they will do the work you need , all this - is of course if you get a good one !

[mb7050]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_dynamics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound
V = sqrt(k*R*T): k=specific heat ratio, R=gas constant, T=abs temperature



Tube size can be checked by calculating the maximum airflow attainable, dividing by the area of the tube in square feet, and dividing again by 60 to convert to feet, per second. An approximate value tor maximum airflow can be obtained by multiplying the desired bhp by 1.5.
Example:
Let power = 400 bhp, for which maximum airflow is approximately 600 cfm, and air tube diameter = 2.5 in. Then


http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/6247/yjuffffffffffffffffffff.jpg

the 2.5-inch-diameter tube will be adequate to flow 600 cfm without unreasonable drag.
Resist the temptation to use larger diameter tubes than necessary, as little drag is created in smooth tubes with gentle bends. Larger tubes will only add to the volume of the IC system, and that is not a good thing to do.


According to Corky Bell, Maximum Boost pg 61, ~~304 MPH or ~~0.4 mach is the point at which airflow meets increased resistance (drag) and flow losses are experienced.

You can use this chart to estimate and plan the size of piping you need. Actual values will vary 'little' depending on temp etc.



0.4 mach = 304 MPH

2"
1.57 x 2 = 3.14 sq in
300 cfm = 156 mph = 0.20 mach
400 cfm = 208 mph = 0.27 mach
500 cfm = 261 mph = 0.34 mach
585 cfm max = 304 mph = 0.40 mach


2.25"
3.9740625 sq in = 1.98703125 x 2
300 cfm = 123 mph = 0.16 mach
400 cfm = 164 mph = 0.21 mach
500 cfm = 205 mph = 0.26 mach
600 cfm = 247 mph = 0.32 mach
700 cfm = 288 mph = 0.37 mach
740 cfm max = 304 mph = 0.40 mach


2.5"
4.90625 sq in = 2.453125 x 2
300 cfm = 100 mph = 0.13 mach
400 cfm = 133 mph = 0.17 mach
500 cfm = 166 mph = 0.21 mach
600 cfm = 200 mph = 0.26 mach
700 cfm = 233 mph = 0.30 mach
800 cfm = 266 mph = 0.34 mach
900 cfm = 300 mph = 0.39 mach
913 cfm max = 304 mph = 0.40 mach


2.75"
5.9365625 sq in = 2.96828125 x 2
300 cfm = 82 mph = 0.10 mach
400 cfm = 110 mph = 0.14 mach
500 cfm = 137 mph = 0.17 mach
600 cfm = 165 mph = 0.21 mach
700 cfm = 192 mph = 0.25 mach
800 cfm = 220 mph = 0.28 mach
900 cfm = 248 mph = 0.32 mach
1000 cfm = 275 mph = 0.36 mach
1100 cfm max = 303 mph = 0.40 mach


3.0"
7.065 sq in = 3.5325 x 2
300 cfm = 69 mph = 0.09 mach
400 cfm = 92 mph = 0.12 mach
500 cfm = 115 mph = 0.15 mach
600 cfm = 138 mph = 0.18 mach
700 cfm = 162 mph = 0.21 mach
800 cfm = 185 mph = 0.24 mach
900 cfm = 208 mph = 0.27 mach
1000 cfm = 231 mph = 0.30 mach
1100 cfm = 254 cfm = 0.33 mach
1200 cfm = 277 mph = 0.36 mach
1300 cfm max= 301 mph = 0.39 mach



and here you can look how much CFM your turbos will flow at xx amount of psi.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-3s-compflowmaps.htm

[mb7050]

One thing to consider
The smaller piping will create a larger pressure drop accross the IC and piping but if you have turbos that shines at higher boost anyway. On pump gas it's very possible that the smaller piping could actually help make power because the turbo would need to work harder and thus may end up closer to it's peak efficiency. Having a compressor map and proper analysis of the IC design would allow one to conduct a theoretical calculation as to whether or not this is the case with the particular setup.






For ten feet of 1.5"-diameter smooth pipe, calculations using the web pages noted above suggest that pressure loss should be about 1.2 psi at 15 psi boost (near sea level), 360 cfm (before compression) flow (in each half of our IC system), with an air temperature of 200ºF.

If the 10' pipe diameter increased to 2", at the 360 cfm (before compression) flow mentioned above the pressure loss would only be about 0.26 psi. A substantial improvement

A 2"-diameter pipe could flow about 720 cfm (before compression) with a pressure drop of about 1.1 psi, about the same as a 1.5"-diameter pipe flowing only 360 cfm (before compression). So at the same pressure loss the 2-inch pipe will flow about twice as much air as the 1.5-inch pipe


^Too bad the calculator webpage is not online anymore

Any bend in a tube or sudden change of cross section must be viewed as a potential flow loss or source of increased drag. It would be reasonable to estimate that every time the airflow must turn 90°, a loss of 1% of the flow will occur. Three 30° bends will add up to a 90. Always use the largest possible radius for any change of direction.

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/5483/aaaaaaaaaaag.jpg
A cone angle greater than 15° can cause disruption of the air stream's boundary layer, increasing drag.

Certainly a short-radius 90 bend will lose more flow than a large 90. The change from one size tube to another is frequently necessary for purposes of getting into a throttle body, out of the turbo, and into and out of the intercooler. These changes of section upset smooth flow and create losses.
Gradual changes of section can best be created by conical segments, A rea¬sonable rule of thumb for the angle of the cone would be one diameter change in four diameter lengths.

[IPD]

4 posts in a row?

is it just me, or does it seem that mb7050 REALLY wants to have everyone believe that smics > fmics--regardless of the data we actually have available?

[mb7050]

no man I´m just interested in of this topic :)

actually if you look at the values 3" pipe will flow better than 2x2" pipes so +1 for FMIC guys :)

I´m not saying FMIC is bad as I said before I think the FMIC vs SMIC depate is more about personal preference than anything else.

[MR2]

3" has more flow potential...but also more air to pressurise...so not necessarily better.

[mb7050]

yes but it is desired to have slightly bigger cold side ic piping because the air is moving slower then

faster the air moves the hotter it becomes so you don´t want to heat up the air again right ? :)

[mb7050]

actually Gerhard @ bell intercoolers recommended to have over 2" pipes when you go over ~630 awhp

[MR2]

in theory....practice though? I recon I'm not going to bother going any larger than the commpressor output, so if my Terminators have a 2" outlet..that's what I'm going to use...I MAY go to a 2.5" outlet from the intercooler....but I bet if I test it there won't be much point I recon..

all this is years off though.

[MR2]

actually Gerhard @ bell intercoolers recommended to have over 2" pipes when you go over ~630 awhp

with SMIC's that's 2 x 2" pipes...not 1 x 2" pipe ....?

[mb7050]

yeah you shouldn't need bigger hot air ic pipes than the commpressor output .

[mb7050]

with SMIC's that's 2 x 2" pipes...not 1 x 2" pipe ....?

2 x 2"

[MR2]

so in theory....match compressor for output, then go what...half inch larger for cold side?

I'd love to see some end tanks that don't hold like a liter of air each made up too.

[YoshiBishi]

F it all, I'm going top mount. :lol7:

http://www.benlevy.com/auto/show/hnn08/img_1840.jpg

[mb7050]

F it all, I'm going top mount. :lol7:

http://www.benlevy.com/auto/show/hnn08/img_1840.jpg

Each to their own i quess

[mb7050]

so in theory....match compressor for output, then go what...half inch larger for cold side?

I'd love to see some end tanks that don't hold like a liter of air each made up too.

2x2.25" is too large i don´t think you would gain much if anything(would probably just hurt) if the hot pipes are 2x2":)

1x3" is pretty much what you would want with 2x2" hot pipes, not that it should matter much either way because the hot pipes are stil 2x2"...

if you look at race cars they all have similar size hot / cold pipes

Gerhard @ bell intercoolers also recommended to have similar size cold / hot air pipes ...

[mb7050]

the thing is when you consult too many people you don´t know anymore who to believe so you just need to make your own conclusions. Actually one highly respected tuner recommended to have 2.25" hot air pipes and 2" cold air pipes :)

[MR2]

I figure start with 2" each way and go from there...not hard to change an intercooler output and or input from 2" to 3"...

and that makes sense...cold air is more dense...so...

[IPD]

3" has more flow potential...but also more air to pressurise...so not necessarily better.

i guarantee if you're td05, you aren't worried about the IC pipes being too large.

[mb7050]

up to some point I agree.

[mb7050]

TD05 flows a lot more air then the lilly TD04 the 0.0xx second lag you get when you go up 0.5" in piping size isn´t something to worry about IMO :)

[mb7050]

I´m also going with 2x2" pipes cold/hot

[mh3kgt]

More lag might be a good thing for td04 guys since so many of us are having weird surging problems at low boost levels due to the turbos being too efficient

[mb3000]

More lag might be a good thing for td04 guys since so many of us are having weird surging problems at low boost levels due to the turbos being too efficient

:dontknow: I know its not helping me.

[mb7050]

i think the sideskirts could be functional afterall.see what they did here
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/793/sideskirts.jpg
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-29787441116698/2006-Corvette-1.gif
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-abc/Aston-Martin-DB9-SA-Studio-1920x1440.jpg
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/features/all/2007/aston_martin_dbr9_feature/aston_martin_dbr9_sport_gallery/aston_martin_dbr9_sport_gallery_aston_martin_dbr9_ image_001/951646-1-eng-US/aston_martin_dbr9_sport_gallery_aston_martin_dbr9_ image_0011_gallery_image_large.jpg
http://i0.8000vueltas.com/2007/03/235000352_4fe70511c0.jpg

[IPD]

what for? to mount an intercooler in front of the rear wheels?

MAYBE if you did a complicated amount of ducting you could make vented fenders viable for something; it would be an assload of work though. perhaps something like gixxerdrew did to his DSM spyder's widebody front fenders.

skirts wouldn't do a darn thing.

[mb7050]

I already have widebody front fenders and those can be made functional to vent out exhaust air behind sidemounts ..

[mb7050]

skirts wouldn't do a darn thing.

i think sideskirts like those can help to reduce the wheel well pressure.

[DG]

It can be difficult to predict where the pressure zones are and what the air is going to do - thus all the money spent on CFD models and the subsequent verification of these models via tunnel testing. Nobody can tell what the air will do via coup d'oeil.

Tuft testing and manometers can help, but precious few people actually try it - far easier to flex keyboard muscles and make blanket statements unfounded by actual experience.

There *should* be a low pressure area in the wheelwell, so cutting out the louvers and replacing it with wire mesh *should* work - but one never can tell without testing.

Routing a duct through the fender and out a vent behind the wheel is an interesting idea and may have merit. Off the top of my head I'd expect it to be a high (or at least ambiant) pressure zone... but a NACA duct on the back edge (or something similar) just might work. Ideally the fender would be sealed up with sillicone along the top edge, and it might need a sealed bulkhead to create an actual duct and prevent leakage... but the idea is interesting and is worth investigating. Doubly so for a "widebody" fender, which would have more room for ductwork and should provide a larger/stronger low pressure area to exhaust the duct.

Pressure drop is not a very useful metric. I can make an IC that has zero pressure drop by simply replacing all those restrictive tubes/plates with a straight run of 3" tubing. Mind you, it won't be a very effective *cooler*....

The aim is to try and get the outlet air temp down to ambiant. You can never quite get there without a misting system, but that is the aim. In order to do that, the air must spend enough time in the cooler in contact with the exchanger elements to transfer heat away. So you are always trading off flow rate against heat transfer efficiency.

There is a point of maximum flow choke, beyond which you just can't stuff any more air through it. So long as this point is larger than the maximum possible air demand curve of the engine, you're golden. And it doesn't have to be much larger, so that you aren't trading heat transfer efficiency against flow capacity.

If the boost control reference is in the manifold plenum, where it belongs, pressure drop doesn't matter at all - with a caveat. The larger the pressure drop, the more the turbo compresses the air, the more heat is induced into the outlet charge. Plus, the actual pressure ratio influences where the compressor is on the efficiency map, which in turn changes the amount of heat induced in the outlet charge. At some point, the extra heat from the extra compression needed to force the air through the cooler overpowers the extra cooling that comes with longer dwell in the cooler and pressure drop now starts to matter.

So there is a sweet spot of pressure drop vs cooling that has to be determined experimentally.

DG

[mb7050]

For about ten years I measured every intercooler I came across for pressure drop and effectiveness. The data lead me to believe pressure drop was king and effectiveness not quite the king. That was 25 years ago. That info was as summarized in Maxboost1.

With another twelve years of measuring things and a bit of supplier supplied computer work, I have changed my mind regarding the relative value of flow loss versus effectiveness.

In the past four/five years of BellIntercoolers.com, I have built approximately 4000 intercoolers with feed back on some ranging from a Bonneville record setting twin engined motorcyle (record only lasted 1.5 days) to Ford, Cummins, and Harley's test labs to oil field stationary power plants to turbocharged observation UAV's drones for the Isrealis, even tractor pullers. All of which has been fun.

Between my fabulously able partner and myself, we have at least been exposed to the opportunity to learn a bunch about how heat gets through a boundry and into the atmosphere with the least of other bad effects. However, I would not be in a position to judge how well we learned anything.

An intercooler has proven to be a more complex part that I could have imagined 12 years ago. There are probably 25 separate considerations to be sorted in any design. Lost of fun trying to put the consideration in order to come up with something that proves to be five to ten percent better than anything else, and often 50% better than the haphazard intercooler. When finally done, you just haveta know, its a hoot. At present, it IS a hoot.


interesting

[mh3kgt]

Why hasn't anyone tried retrofitting their wife in the engine bay with some palm leaves to aid in cooling? :dontknow:

[mb7050]

i don´t know but cooling in these cars sucks when you drive it hard you will have cooling issues ..

[MR2]

for the record I was not suggesting cutting fenders and routing out behind the wheel...I was suggesting cutting fenters in the side of the bumper in front of the wheel

[mb7050]

i know

[mb7050]

1st gens already have that bumper cut you talked about earlier :)

http://www.valuemd.com/attachments/st-matthews-medical-school-classifieds/7661d1213544193-1991-mitsubishi-gto-3000-gt-aka-japanese-ferrari-sale-gto.jpg

[mb3000]

Or you could do something like this.
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad128/mb3000gt_photos/1992%203000GT%20VR4/IMG_0600.jpg

[MR2]

the first gen is the right idea...but implementation is crap, and there is no point to it being completely open as you want negative pressure...and I suspect you'd just get normal pressue with the air being forced up from underneath...

[mb7050]

hmm.
http://sierracompositesblog.com/wp-content/images/wwspoilers2.jpg
http://sierracompositesblog.com/wp-content/images/wwspoilers1.jpg
http://sierracompositesblog.com/wp-content/images/p2.jpg
http://sierracompositesblog.com/wp-content/images/scgtlip.jpg
spoilers like these could work also, expecially for me and others running slightly too wide tires . these would prevent the air hitting the tires and quite possibly reduce wheel well pressure ..

re-direct the airflow past the front of the wheel well right to the wheels eliminating turbulence, and secondly adding more front surface area for airflow to effectively apply down force on.

http://www.sierracomposites.com/SC-Aero-GT-Front-Wheel-Well-Spoilers-p/scgtwwls.htm

[mb7050]

the first gen is the right idea...but implementation is crap, .

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/AudiR10Sebring2008-MF2.jpg
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/AudiR10-MF14.jpg

you mean louvers,much much smaller in size, of course ?

[CoopKill]

You have to understand that those cars you are referencing have spent thousands of hours in wind tunnels, and R&D.

I might "guess" that the louvers your are pointing out are not being used to exhaust air from a cooler like what we would need. Looks to me like they are creating a low pressure siphon to pull air from the coolers, or aero, which would not work for us?

The wheel well louvers might be creating low pressure to pull air through the upper fender vents for tire/brake cooling? I see no evidence of coolers at the locations that are pointed out. I may be wrong though...

[mb7050]

You have to understand that those cars you are referencing have spent thousands of hours in wind tunnels, and R&D.



yes i know




upper fender vents
in that car and many others those are used for to remove pressure from the wheel wells




I might "guess" that the louvers your are pointing out are creating a low pressure siphon to pull air from the coolers, ?


this might work for us.

[mb7050]

You have to understand that those cars you are referencing have spent thousands of hours in wind tunnels, and R&D.

I might "guess" that the louvers your are pointing out are not being used to exhaust air from a cooler like what we would need. Looks to me like they are creating a low pressure siphon to pull air from the coolers, or aero, which would not work for us?

The wheel well louvers might be creating low pressure to pull air through the upper fender vents for tire/brake cooling? I see no evidence of coolers at the locations that are pointed out. I may be wrong though...

I´m just adapting some ideas from race cars. ideas that might not work at all, but might as well work with what we have. ..
Mulsanne's Corner, technical analysis of contemporary sports prototype racing cars (http://www.mulsannescorner.com/)

[MR2]

http://3000gt.com.au/car/SMIC/Vent/exampl3.jpg
The crazy arsed skyline is my best example, you'd need to have the vents sealed against the back of the IC and I'd want it to have the same edge as the hood vents (this specific lip that you see is know to create the best low pressure zone or so I've been lead to believe, since my SMIC mounting looks like it will end up right against the stock vents in the arch's I'd need to make a new baffel panel that takes up a smigion more wheel arch space (should not really be an issue considering our normal clearance.
http://3000gt.com.au/car/SMIC/Vent/example4.jpg

[IPD]

i'm currently trying to generate interest for a hood WITH said features. just in case anyone is interested. :)

[mb7050]

i'm currently trying to generate interest for a hood WITH said features. just in case anyone is interested. :)



any links or pics ?

I would love to have aluminium hood, without hood pins :) .
I absolutely hate hood pins ..

[MR2]

yeah...huge fan of the Alu...one of the few hoods I'd actually buy in future, needs to be OEM infitment & construction though...no fents or luvers in the rear of the hood...just really want venting from the radiator

[IPD]

it's in the GI section of the classifieds. it will NOT be aluminum. my hat's off to whomever can get aluminum made. this one will be FG, limited production run, and will be a completely custom design, modeled after andrew brilliant's DSM's hood.

[DG]

My race car had a huge vent in the hood, placed specifically to try and increase the amount of air exhausted through the FMIC/radiator stack. I was never able to prove that it contributed anything.

SMIC vents in front of the wheelwell... maybe. Certainly easier to duct than behind the wheelwell. The abrupt 90 degree turn right after the cooler is a problem, although this could be lessened somewhat by rotating the cooler. Bigger issue is - is it exhausting into low or high pressure? Impossible to guess. Needs testing.

Those wheel well wicker straps are, strictly speaking, Gurney flaps.

DG

[MR2]

My race car had a huge vent in the hood, placed specifically to try and increase the amount of air exhausted through the FMIC/radiator stack. I was never able to prove that it contributed anything.

SMIC vents in front of the wheelwell... maybe. Certainly easier to duct than behind the wheelwell. The abrupt 90 degree turn right after the cooler is a problem, although this could be lessened somewhat by rotating the cooler. Bigger issue is - is it exhausting into low or high pressure? Impossible to guess. Needs testing.

Those wheel well wicker straps are, strictly speaking, Gurney flaps.

DG

you should have done some testing with your hood! :) I do wonder if you completely covered the underneath with plastic, what you'd do with the rear turbo heat...

and with the side exit, it'd be exiting into low pressure for sure :) wether the stock wheel well dump area is low pressure or not is anyone's guess I doubt it which is why I'd plan to bypass it totally in the long term

[DG]

I did do testing; the tests were inconclusive. I could prove that air was coming out the vent, but I could not correlate the vent to increased cooling or downforce.

You cannot be certain that any given area is low or high pressure. You can guess, those guesses can be educated, and they may even be right - but air does strange things sometimes and the only way to really know is to test.

DG

[MR2]

yeah I'm sure that when you corner the high and low would change...another thing on the to buy list is a 8 input logger...so I can have like temp and pressure sensors everywhere :)

I'm kinda curious how far forward our high pressure zone is infront of the windscreen too (so if you could put a vent for the rear turbo too as opposed to it becoming an intake)

so much stuff to toy with!

[mb7050]

this is what im thinking the flaps would do and yes they would also function as gurney flaps.(
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8886/withoutflaps.jpg
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/4524/flaps.jpg
and oem bumpers are even worse with wide tires.
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5074/3000gtu.jpg

[DG]

The presence of the spinning tire complicates things.

DG

[mb7050]

for sure but it seems to be very common to use flaps or integrated bodywork with any body style to help to extract high pressure air out of the wheel well.(the front tires are never directly exposed to the airflow)
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/wheelgurney.jpghttp://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagames/NFS/speedhunters.com/Images/AndyBlackmore/RACING/ALMS08_LRP/marshall4.jpg

[DocWalt]

FWIW, my front bumper has a little lip molded in to help direct air around the tire. Also, the ducting on my FMIC is pretty extensive for an OEM application.

[mb7050]

I noticed that Bell intercoolers have recently opened the new manufacturing facility(a little late to the party :eh: ), its time to buy some intercoolers :)
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4010/bellintercoolers.jpg

[MR2]

And look at that endtank.

[mb7050]

I knew you would notice that :)

[mb7050]

extremely simple efficiency test... in progress...

random pics

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8021/imag0462r.jpg

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4900/imag0463x.jpg

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8138/imag0465nr.jpg

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/imag0463x.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/imag0463x.jpg

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4325/imag0459l.jpg



will post some results tomorrow

[MR2]

I love your testing :D do more!!! Do it now! :D

[mb7050]

apparently piping effects is massive mainly because of the dual pass design; note below; the dual pass design like this really sucks IMO.. inlet is heating the outlet lol(altho i thought it should perform better vs a single pass:| ) ..

Chinabay core

(core size of (~8x8.1X4.6)
Outside Temp 25 degrees Celsius = 77 degrees Fahrenheit

after 5 mins
Intercooler Outlet Temp 50 degrees Celsius = 122 degrees Fahrenheit

after 10mins
Intercooler Outlet 56.7 degrees Celsius = 134.06 degrees Fahrenheit

after 15mins
Intercooler Outlet 56.7 degrees Celsius = 134.06 degrees Fahrenheit

after 15-17mins this is how it looked

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/3803/50642584.jpg
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4456/62106790.jpg
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4814/53583907.jpg
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2740/33623536.jpg
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/9075/78434798.jpg
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4963/19827828.jpg
http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/2355/24476932.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7442/83682767.jpg

[mb7050]

OEM core

(core size of (~8x8X3)
Outside Temp 25 degrees Celsius = 77 degrees Fahrenheit

after 5 mins
Intercooler Outlet 43 degrees Celsius = 109.4 degrees Fahrenheit

after 10mins
Intercooler Outlet 43.5 degrees Celsius = 110.3 degrees Fahrenheit

after 15mins
Intercooler Outlet 45 degrees Celsius = 113 degrees Fahrenheit


after 15-17mins this is how it looked

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/1933/26530939.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3592/36209078.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2730/78250338.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9219/95016443.jpg
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/7741/93940242.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9794/57333765.jpg
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3743/12619253.jpg

[mb7050]

made in england (a high efficiency core (thickest they can supply) (different tube design and greater outernal fin density vs a non a high efficiency core...

core size of (~10x8.1X5.3)
Outside Temp 25 degrees Celsius = 77 degrees Fahrenheit

after 5 mins
Intercooler Outlet 27.5 degrees Celsius = 81.5 degrees Fahrenheit

after 10mins
Intercooler Outlet 32 degrees Celsius = 89.6 degrees Fahrenheit

after 15mins
Intercooler Outlet 39 degrees Celsius = 102.2 degrees Fahrenheit

after 15-17mins this is how it looked
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3817/76817704.jpg
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3007/80195324.jpg
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/3691/96941723.jpg
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/4118/43516684.jpg
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6721/74956418.jpg
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/6443/96040034.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8363/68653883.jpg
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1733/88149919.jpg
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/8048/53133965.jpg

[mb7050]

might end up testing the effects of proper ducting tomorrow i have a hunch it will make a huger difference on the high efficiency core because very little air passed thru it during the testing vs the others...
all in all im quite amazed how well the OEM performed.

tube design in the chinabay core (bad very bad)
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4313/imag0169b.jpg

tube design in the english core (good.)
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/686/imag0441lf.jpg

might end up chopping open an OEM ic to see what it looks like inside(anyone got a pic of it ??

Fin density
oem
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/278/density18fps.jpg
chinahttp://img694.imageshack.us/img694/1599/density27fps.jpg
eng
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9648/density311fps.jpg

[oohnoo]

Very interesting results especially the oem one like you said. I think I got one in the shed someplace that's cut up, if not I can cut one in half at work Monday. Only thing I would do different is put a vacuum at the other end of the core to draw air out. This is how they pressure test them to see what the difference is between inlet/outlet.

[J. Fast]

You should make 2 couplers and tap a hole into them so you can measure real inlet vs outlet temp. I agree with Bob, draw the air thru with a shopvac. It will be interesting to see if the results differ that way.

[oohnoo]

I actually have a dual temp gauge I picked up just for that purpose.

Cool Intercooler Temp Gauge - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/cool-intercooler-temp-gauge-426658/)

[mb7050]

yeah Im thinking of adding a second blower(heatgun) maybe a vac too to draw air out + a proper ducting . I think i have a proper temp gauge somewhere, I looked for it, but i couldnt find it.(my garage is a mess lol).

just for the record i used a alu fin like this and aimed the IR temp gun at it should be prity close to the actual outlet temp imo..
http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/3185/aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam.jpg

[oohnoo]

Thinner the metal the better as it won't take as long to heat up. You can buy mine if you want.

[mb7050]

They are going to be a tight fit :awesome: :scared2:


http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6513/10138205.jpg
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/421/88960374.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8435/62369041.jpg
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/4952/52121094.jpg


I also measured some weights

those ICs above
7 kilograms = 15.4323584 pounds each 14 kilograms = 30.8647167 pounds TOTAL yikes

OEM ICs
2 kilograms = 4.40924524 pounds each 4 kilograms = 8.81849049 pounds TOTAL remember that these have the pipes attached to them

China
2.6 kilograms = 5.73201882 pounds each 5.2 kilograms = 11.4640376 pounds TOTAL

[MR2]

in Summary..

OEM Cores:

(core size of (~8x8X3)
Outside Temp 25 degrees Celsius = 77 degrees Fahrenheit

after 5 mins
Intercooler Outlet 43 degrees Celsius = 109.4 degrees Fahrenheit
after 10mins
Intercooler Outlet 43.5 degrees Celsius = 110.3 degrees Fahrenheit
after 15mins
Intercooler Outlet 45 degrees Celsius = 113 degrees Fahrenheit

Chinabay core

(core size of (~8x8.1X4.6)
Outside Temp 25 degrees Celsius = 77 degrees Fahrenheit

after 5 mins
Intercooler Outlet Temp 50 degrees Celsius = 122 degrees Fahrenheit
after 10mins
Intercooler Outlet 56.7 degrees Celsius = 134.06 degrees Fahrenheit
after 15mins
Intercooler Outlet 56.7 degrees Celsius = 134.06 degrees Fahrenheit

MB7050's crazy cores

core size of (~10x8.1X5.3)
Outside Temp 25 degrees Celsius = 77 degrees Fahrenheit

after 5 mins
Intercooler Outlet 27.5 degrees Celsius = 81.5 degrees Fahrenheit
after 10mins
Intercooler Outlet 32 degrees Celsius = 89.6 degrees Fahrenheit
after 15mins
Intercooler Outlet 39 degrees Celsius = 102.2 degrees Fahrenheit

Save the Scrolling up and down :p

[IPD]

and in comparison to 30x4x12 FMIC?

[R/T93]

He doesnt have one, do it yourself