SMIC vs FMIC

[VR-4 0wnz j00]

Links are broken for the pics

[MR2]

Links are broken for the pics

last few pages of pics work for me...must be you

[IPD]

He doesnt have one, do it yourself

nah. i'm already convinced that FMIC > SMIC...but with the army of SMIC supporters, i thought i'd ask.

[mb7050]

If I had one, I would definitely test it .

[arm0red1]

I have a 32x4x12 cx racing fmic core that i could test today, pending use for my big single setup, how are the parameters of the experiment set? I could duplicate your testing environment while working on the car today with the only variance being ambient temps (its like 40 degrees in the shop where the car is)

[mb7050]

i don't think you can duplicate my testing environment since i don't know how much cfm my blower fans are producing and one would have to test two sidemounts in parallel to get comparable results

[mb7050]

I bought an anemometer for CFM testing and a proper thermometer w two sensors, should receive them next week or so.

[JasonY]

Air/water > *

:)

Jason

[mb7050]

I think the OEM cooler performed well in this test because of the optimal fin density and thin core tubes so air passed thru it very easily . I tried to take a looks inside it with a probe camera. I couldnt get it angled right so I couldnt see very well.. the core tubes are so thin, there are fins inside the core tubes and quite possibly thin metal too they work well..
not nearly as important to have proper ducting with the oem cores as it is with thicker cores and with cores with a greater fin density..

Same reason why race teams use thicker cores, cores with a greater fin density or sometimes even staggered cores at higher speed tracks because the greater speed helps push the air through

The thickest core underperformed in this test because very little air passed thru it during the testing as i said before. With cores as thick as these and especially because of the dense fin density it is very very important to have proper ducting.

[mb7050]

I may redo the test when i receive the equipments and see what happens at higher internal airflow.. I have a water to air ic core too but I don't have a heat exchanger for it(yet) so i don't think its worth testing without it ?

I have two radiators(koyo, oem) and oil coolers(oem, B&M, Fluidyne) here. I would love to test them too .. Actually right now im shopping for a blower something that i could use, try to outflow the oem maf, I have some mafs here to test with..

[MR2]

awesome man :D

you may need a stronger heat source with a blower pushing through the IC's !

[mb7050]

nah. i'm already convinced that FMIC > SMIC...but with the army of SMIC supporters, i thought i'd ask.

I for one face the facts I'm not afraid to say my shit is weak lol and as I have said many times before it comes down to a matter of opinion
SMICS | FMIC | WATER TO AIR etc There are trade-off's for any set-up....


mayby next i should simulate the effects on radiator cooling efficiency when you stick a fmic in front of it, you see with smics you don't have to worry about that :DevilSmile:

[mb7050]

awesome man :D

you may need a stronger heat source with a blower pushing through the IC's !

I'm not thinking of testing the efficiency with the blower I'm thinking of trying to outflow the stock MAF(also measuring the HZs at given CFM of airflow) and compare oem maf vs gutted(side screens removed) oem maf vs evo8/9 maf .

Also thinking of using the blower for flow testing the IC's fwiw

[IPD]

I for one face the facts I'm not afraid to say my shit is weak lol and as I have said many times before it comes down to a matter of opinion
SMICS | FMIC | WATER TO AIR etc There are trade-off's for any set-up....


mayby next i should simulate the effects on radiator cooling efficiency when you stick a fmic in front of it, you see with smics you don't have to worry about that :DevilSmile:

true...but then again, you do have to worry about where to put a trans-cooler, oil-cooler, etc. and i'd be willing to bet that cooling ability of a 2" rad + FMIC is still > than 1" OEM rad w/o FMIC.

you're 100% right, there are trade-offs for any setup. I really would like to see comparisons for FMIC's though. I'd like to see how similar performance is between them and SMICs. also in for rad efficiency #'s.

[MR2]

dude, no-one but you is running a Trans cooler :p

oil cooler is small enough to fit in front of the rad without any noticeable ill effects :p

Loving your work mb, in for CFM Vs pressure loss numbers :)

[IPD]

dude, no-one but you is running a Trans cooler :p

oil cooler is small enough to fit in front of the rad without any noticeable ill effects :p

Loving your work mb, in for CFM Vs pressure loss numbers :)

maybe if you're using the STOCK oil cooler. but if you're going to the trouble of getting this size smics, wtf would you simply neglect that aspect of your system?

[MR2]

neglect what? even my oil large cooler appears to have no effect on water temps?

[IPD]

neglect what? even my oil large cooler appears to have no effect on water temps?

i don't think an FMIC has any more "ill effect" on temps than putting other heat-exchangers in the front either--at least it shouldn't if you've installed everything properly, and are using a 2" rad.

what size oil cooler? the c3's i plan to run are a bit bigger than something i'd put in front of the condenser.

[MR2]

http://3000gt.com.au/car/Oil%20Cooler%20Relocation/Brackets/DSC00688p.JPG

just a PWR Radiator, think it's only 1.5" or something

difference is that air can get around the Oil cooler, 99% of FMIC's I've seen the air has no choice where to run, running a FMIC so far forward also reduces (in theory) the amount of pressure that can build up in front of the radiator again, helping to push air through

[IPD]

another great reason to run a vented hood; helps to scavenge the air. :)

[MR2]

and what will you do to return the air going past the rear turbo again after you put a vented hood in? (remember how the air goes over the engine and back down under the car....from what I've seen posts of)

[mb7050]

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/9022/finwidth1.jpg
http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/959/finwidth2.jpg
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/6233/finwifth3.jpg

^prity much the same.

Extruded tubes
Their job is to soak up the heat in the passing air & deliver it to the tube wall. The trick is too pull the maximum heat out of the air with the least resistance to flow.

extruded tubes on the OEM coolers are thin and have fins inside each compartment. but there are no core tubes on the sides so there are only 14 thin core tubes vs 14 thicker core tubes on the china cooler(same total core width on both cores) i wouldnt expect them(oem) to flow very well
http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/3378/tube1t.jpg

extruded tubes in the china coolers are quite thick its a shame there are no 'ribs' or fins inside the extruded tubes to help to dissipate the heat.14 core tubes but because it is a dual pass design it wont flow nearly as well as a single pass
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1553/tube2x.jpg

Extruded tubes in the english coolers are thick and have ribs inside each compartment. more ribs/inch, more heat soak & pressure drop. Also the more ribs in contact with the tube wall, the more efficient. Because of the extrusion process, ribs are thicker than fins
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/8722/tube3a.jpg

With Ambient air flow, the (outernal) fins job is too radiate the heat, so the air passing through the core absorbs the heat & transports it away from the core - in FMIC configuration straight into the radiator finning .Some thought has to be given to radiator cooling or you can create a problem that can limit the engine output more than the intercooler can increase it.

fin density (fins per inch)

OEM ~14fps great at low speeds.

China ~13fps decent

England ~22fps insane IMO for cores this thick (5.3") . good at high/very high speeds, very bad at low speeds . I'm thinking of adding fans to help to pull air thru them @ low speeds especially because they are so heavy, mass collects heat, good and bad .

generally The higher the vehicle speed &/or the more direct ducting to stop spillage of the air around the core, the closer the fin pitch can be.



As a general rule, with a level playing field (manufacturing quality, both fpi's, tube size, thickness, & a hundred other variables), bar & plate intercooler cores dissipate more BTU's than plate tube & fin & then tube & fin cores - per square centimetre. Please stop, go back & read that sentence again, If there is enough area & volume available, I mostly recommend a tube & fin core to do the job, as it will get the temperature down close to bar & plate, but at less pressure drop & less chance of leakage.
tube & fin cores are stronger




ARE Cooling (Aluminium Radiators & Engineering P/L) (http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm) <-A great site too bad it is a fucking mess

[mb7050]

i don't think an FMIC has any more "ill effect" on temps than putting other heat-exchangers in the front either--at least it shouldn't if you've installed everything properly, and are using a 2" rad.

what size oil cooler? the c3's i plan to run are a bit bigger than something i'd put in front of the condenser.

your partially right... one running a FMIC should pay attention to the ducting and especially how much air bypasses the ic core. Beware tho, if your running a FMIC with a thick core and dense fin density you will run into same problem as i with the large smics(very little to no air passes the core @ low speeds so your fmic turns into a A storage system for heat easily)

my current oil cooler
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/6162/imag0229i.jpg

[IPD]

and what will you do to return the air going past the rear turbo again after you put a vented hood in? (remember how the air goes over the engine and back down under the car....from what I've seen posts of)

since vents aren't angled to let air INTO the bay, i don't really see your point.

[CoopKill]

Depends on location, low/high pressure zones much more than angle. Without wind tunnel testing it is all guessing.

[MR2]

Good post on Engine bay Air flow (http://www.3si.org/forum/f119/ferrari-550-maranello-hood-274355/index14.html#post3323889)

notice what happens to the heat the rear turbo generates?

[J. Fast]

You mean on an oem hood? It stays in the engine bay. I've seen the tuft wool test on the DEFT hood too, it was carbon fiber so maybe it flows different ;). I kid... I kid...

[GTOJOE]

what pressure are you pumping into them? obviously the higher the pressure the higher the "friction" caused by the air and the higher the temps.

[MR2]

unfortunately no-one really knows :p

would LOVE to get some sensors through out the car (including tufting around the engine block with camera's showing what the air is doing as you drive)...found all the stuff to do it but every time I have a list of other mods that take precedence (like the fancy pants oil pump gears that may never get made again) Sorry for derailing MB :|

[mb7050]

(like the fancy pants oil pump gears that may never get made again) Sorry for derailing MB :|

derailing is good . I need more info about these oil pump gears !

[mb7050]

I just bought an manometer(hoping to find some low pressure zones), you can buy a 'decent' dual channel manometer for 100$ or you can buy a chinabay manometer for something like 30$, so chepa

when i finally get my car back on the road I might do some testing ..

when i get my new garage finished. I'll post some pictures of my diy aero testing method using a fan(youll need one big and powerful fan) and a steam washer lol
:pirate:

[BigTyla]

what pressure are you pumping into them? obviously the higher the pressure the higher the "friction" caused by the air and the higher the temps.

Inaccurate statement. Temperature increase has little to do with "friction cause by the air."

It is certainly still useful to know the pressure being used here as it IS a function of pressure loss at the end of the system (which IS caused by friction and is a function of fluid density, speed, and pipe dimensions).

In short, higher pressures do lead to higher temperatures (Thermo 101) but friction is not directly correlated to this.

[MR2]

Billet oil pump gears (for people revving the crap out of their cars)

3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f25/bfgs-billet-oil-pump-gears-525281/index4.html#post6331503)

[AdamVR4]

what pressure are you pumping into them? obviously the higher the pressure the higher the "friction" caused by the air and the higher the temps.


Please elaborate. Where's the friction term in the ideal gas law? Do you think it's in the Boltzmann constant?

[GTOJOE]

Inaccurate statement. Temperature increase has little to do with "friction cause by the air."

It is certainly still useful to know the pressure being used here as it IS a function of pressure loss at the end of the system (which IS caused by friction and is a function of fluid density, speed, and pipe dimensions).

In short, higher pressures do lead to higher temperatures (Thermo 101) but friction is not directly correlated to this.

Thanks for clearing that up. I put friction in inverted commas becuase I was unsure if it was the correct term. My knowledge of thermo dynamics is extremely limited lol. But I was interested in how the different cores responded to higher pressure.

[oohnoo]

Should of asked me as I picked up a used manometer a while back also. Any ways here's a pic of the inside of a oem IC

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn61/oohnoo_VR4/2011-12-19203724.jpg

[MR2]

looks identical to the Supra cores

[vr4tune]

I think they are both denso

[mb7050]

thanks oohnoo ! so there are fins(looks like a 'proper density' too) inside the core tubes no wonder why it performed so well..

[mb7050]

I miscalculated the fin density on the cores, updated the info..

good info below

I've read that ebay cores are generally about 12FPI(external fin density).




e-bay xs power intercooler (150-250$). 15 row version. transfersely squared up louvred fin design inside. unsquared cut or punched fin outside.
~3" thick
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_TECH%20ARTICLE%20intercooler%20fin%20engine ering%20and%20design%20%28ins%20and%20outs%20pics% 29%2002.jpg

~~12FPI
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_Dsc03333a.jpg


We just had a built motor 67mm EVO on the dyno here that was a bit down on power for the boost level, using an eBay replica intercooler. Intake temps were quite high at the top of each pull (140-150 degrees), so Lucas from English Racing swapped in one of our 4" intercoolers to try and deliver the power result the car should have been producing, even with a safe tune on the AEM. The result was a consistent 60-70 degree drop in intake temperatures at the top of each pull and a bit more than 100whp improvement (20%) in peak numbers after retuning the car for the lower temps This is as a result of the tunable power available by the reduction in intake temps, which can be attributed not only to core design, but also to intercooler core surface area (18" eBay vs. 24" ETS core width).

Granted this is a relatively extreme example, the same significantly lower temps and thus higher boost and timing that can be tuned for on a given fuel with our intercooler has been reported time and again.

We switched from 3/8 to 1/4 and loosened up the internal fin pack for less pressure drop. By changing the charge rows to 1/4 we are able to get a few more charge rows which added more heat transfer plates for better cooling and efficiency

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5201/67mmebaytoetswo3.jpg


EBAY
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HCMRziHV0o8/TP-8HQsH-oI/AAAAAAAAAPg/aKSe31PYThA/ebay%20core.jpg

ETS
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_HCMRziHV0o8/TP-8Jn6xAYI/AAAAAAAAAPk/HvpqGDJ4HPM/ets%20core.jpg

This shows the difference between the two fin packs. The eBay is a straight through internal fin design which gives you less pressure drop, but doesn't do near the job the offset and staggered fin pack does. The offset and staggered fin pack may increase pressure drop to 1.5 or so, but the intake air temps are much cooler when you force the air to split multiple times.

[BigTyla]

That is a great way to show the balance between pressure drop at the expense of heat exchange. Good job!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

holy shit, I'll order an ets today.

[mb7050]

slowboy racing coolerEvo 8&9(550-600). 18 rows. longitudinally straight or standard fin design inside (the channels are straight).
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_TECH%20ARTICLE%20intercooler%20fin%20engine ering%20and%20design%20%28ins%20and%20outs%20pics% 29%2003.jpg

XS engineering core(850-1000$). Very dense longitudinally straight fin and transversely squared up fin design. Also has nice little velocity stacks around the tubes. tube and fin but unique to griffin.
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_TECH%20ARTICLE%20intercooler%20fin%20engine ering%20and%20design%20%28ins%20and%20outs%20pics% 29%2004.jpg

greddy v spec vspl 24 row intercooler~1000$. extruded lobe fin design inside.
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/greddy%20vspec%2004.jpg
longitudinally straight fin non squared up fin outside.
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/greddy%20vspec%2003.jpg

ams intercooler ~750$ longitudinally straight fin design.
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/ams%20inside.jpg
outside same as greddy
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/ams%20outside.jpg

fullrace intercooler ~850$ extruded lobe fin transfer tubes
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_HPIM2649g.jpg

pwr intercooler, basically the same as the fullrace unit. extruded lobe fin transfer tubes. longitudinally straight cooling fins.
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_PWR001.jpg

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-engine-turbo-drivetrain/259412-intercooler-fin-engineering-design-ins-outs-pics.html <- info from

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

just ordered an ets. They are running a great deal today. The 3000gt kit is 1132 instead of 1350

[mb7050]

buschur original "street" intercooler inside transversely squared longitudinally straight fin low density
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/buschur%20original%20inside%2002.jpg
outside is unsquared punched fin. low density
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/buschur%20original%20outside.jpg

buschur revised "street" intercooler inside squared longitunally straight fin and outside cut or punched fin.
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/buschur%20revised%20inside.jpg
outside cut or punched fin.
revised design on top original design on the bottom
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/buschur%20revised%20outside%2002.jpg

BUSCHUR RACE INSIDE louvred dense.
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_patpix017.jpg

outside louvred dense.
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_patpix014.jpg

arc stock like(evo) intercooler. inside is transversely squared longitudinally "tabbed" fins.
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal__MG_0106.jpg

outside has a recessed squared longitudinally straight fins
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal__MG_0099.jpg

arc cast end tank intercooler outside transversely squared longitudinally straight fins
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_ARCfins2.jpg

OEM evo cooler. longitudinally straight fin design inside and out. Runners are narrow but have a nice little velocity stack at the tube header.
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_TECH%20ARTICLE%20intercooler%20fin%20engine ering%20and%20design%20%28ins%20and%20outs%20pics% 29%2001.jpg

[mb7050]

ADRAD
http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/tti1001c.JPG
K&J:
http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/tti1001d.JPG
Calsonic:
http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/tti1001a.JPG
Garret:
http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/tti001z.JPG
Denso:
http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/tti1001b.JPG


Two Adrad cores of different outernal fin densitys:
http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/tti1001p.JPG

Dense Adrad (top) and K&J (bottom):
http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/tti1001m.JPG
Garret (top) and ARE (bottom): ARE markets their core 'better' because their core allows better flow to the radiator
http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/tti1001n.JPG

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1752/p1000270l.jpg

[mb7050]

just ordered an ets. They are running a great deal today. The 3000gt kit is 1132 instead of 1350

Yeah without a doubt ETS makes great intercoolers. bottom line is you get what you pay for usually

[mb7050]

That is a great way to show the balance between pressure drop at the expense of heat exchange. Good job!

If your referring to the 'test/dyno' that ETS did. You gotta notice that they swapped in a much larger core too their 4" thick core is huge compared to that small ebay core so its a function of less pressure drop and better heat exchange.

[vr4tune]

ETS is an awesome company those guys kick ass. They make an awesome product hands down. I may have them make me some new exhaust manifolds here soon. If you have seen their manifolds you would shit yourself on there quality.

I love my intercooler kit that they made for me. They are going to make a jig the pipes on my car soon so they can sell an IPS tdo5 version.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

ETS is an awesome company those guys kick ass. They make an awesome product hands down. I may have them make me some new exhaust manifolds here soon. If you have seen their manifolds you would shit yourself on there quality.

I love my intercooler kit that they made for me. They are going to make a jig the pipes on my car soon so they can sell an IPS tdo5 version.

yeah the guy online was super nice. The website discount for the 3000gt kit wasn't working and he fixed it for me in like 2 minutes.

I'm really going to like the extra space near the top of radiator.

[vr4tune]

I talking o mike at ETS right now and he said that they are having a 15% of sale. Nice job forest gump on you buy!

http://www.extremeturbosystems.com/ETS-Mitsubishi-3000GT-Intercooler-Kit.html

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

thanks, going to try to do the coating a hair different. Going to try to get the 2 lower intercooler pipes that are visible through the bumper powdercoated black and polish the upper pipes that are in the engine bay.

[vr4tune]

That's what I did! I was the first to do it! The I talked coopkill in to it as well. So as far as I know you'll be the third to have that done.

[vr4tune]

It's STEALTH right!
http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss357/vr4tune/16g%20project/16gprojectets174.jpg
http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss357/vr4tune/16g%20project/16gprojectets173.jpg
http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss357/vr4tune/16g%20project/16gprojectets175.jpg
http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss357/vr4tune/16g%20project/16gprojectets180.jpg

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

sure is, I didn't get the core anodized though, want just a hair of bling :)

[mb7050]

Air/water > *

:)

Jason

Well one could argue that it's not ;)

-be sure to weight all the parts :)

101 water to air


http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/8947/nimetng.jpg



Air-to-Water Intercooler
The water-based intercooler system becomes an attractive alternative to the air/air unit when space or plumbing restrictions preclude use of the latter. The logic behind most of the design criteria for the air/air IC applies as well to the water-based IC. Obviously, there are different considerations for handling the water. Although complex, the water-based IC enjoys the one terrific advantage of the far greater (fourteenfold) heat transfer coefficient between water and aluminum than between air and aluminum.

This huge difference is of huge value only if all the heat transfer barriers can be optimized such that the 14-to-1 rate can be of benefit. This is the path to the intercooler system that exceeds 100% for thermal efficiency. Presently this is not practical for any situation except a drag car, Bonneville runner, or marine application. The solution to the problem is in need of the services of a genius inventor type. Without any ingenious solutions, the water-based IC reverts to nothing more than an air/air unit in which the intake charge heat is carried to the front of the vehicle for exchange into the atmosphere by water rather than by the intake charge itself.

The focus of the problems on handling the water is largely centered around rate of water flow, amount of water in the system, and the subsequent removal of heat from the water

Charge-air heat exchanger.
It is easy to get a large internal flow area inside the water IC, since the most usable cores for this purpose are often air units with the flow reversed.

Although aluminum is by far the most convenient material to use in any IC application, copper core elements, should the situation allow them, can yield a greater heat transfer rate. The large flow areas usually associated with the water IC readily suggest that core thickness should be expanded as far as space permits.

Water will likely find equal access to all the core tubes, but attention should be given to trapped air in the top regions of the core. A simple air bleed can prevent air pockets. A better answer is to put the water in at the low point and take it out at the high point

Small air leaks in an air/air unit are unimportant, but any water leak in the main heat exchanger core can be a disaster. Thus it is imperative that the unit be pressure checked For leakage prior to use. Ten psi with the core underwater is adequate. Don't be surprised to see air bubbles coming right through cast aluminum .

Water pumps.
Easily the most usable pumps are 12-volt marine bilge pumps. These can be ganged in series or parallel, depending on pressure and flow capability of the pumps. The fundamental should not he overlooked that the more water circulated, the greater the IC efficiency. Consider a water flow rate of 10 gallons per minute a reasonable minimum. There is a trade-off in pump life versus IC efficiency if the pumps are required to run all the time. With performance the focus of all this work, the answer should he that the pumps run continuously. If the pumps run continuously, the interesting thing happens that when off boost, the intake air will be cooling the water in the IC.

Wiring the pumps to a switched 12-volt source will permit an audible inspection of their function every time the ignition is turned on. The pumps should be mounted as the low points of the IC system, so that they will always be primed and thus preclude the chance of their running dry.

Coolant.
Water is by far the best cooling medium. Glycol and other antifreeze materials degrade the ability of water to transport heat and should be used only in quantities required to prevent freezing and corrosion.

Essentially, put the same ratio of water and antifreeze into the IC that is used in the engine cooling system. Use of a modern coolant can offer the further benefit of protection from aluminum corrosion. Distilled or demineralized water will keep the system clean.

Reservoirs.
The size of the reservoir is of primes importance to the efficiency of the water-based IC. Consider that most applications of boost will last only a few seconds—say, 15 as a high average. Then it is reasonable to be sure in this interval that any given piece of water will not see the IC unit twice. A pump capability of 10 gallons per minute will move 2.5 gallons in 15 seconds: thus, the ideal size of the reservoir here is 2.5 gallons. Unreasonably large, obviously, but the point is made that the bigger the reservoir, the greater the time until the water takes its second lap through the IC It is not too difficult to see that as a larger reservoir is used, the need for a front cooler decreases. Consider that the greater the mass of water, the greater the thermal inertia.

Front cooler.
The front cooler is the least important part of the IC system, as it is doing most of its work when the vehicle is not operating under boost. At the start of a boost run, the entire system will be at approximately ambient temperature. As boost rises, heating the water in the main core, this heated water must get to the front core before it has any temperature difference with which to drive the heat out. This time delay can be as long as 7 or 8 seconds, depending on the size of the reservoir. That amount of time is typical of a boost application. It is clear, then, that the front cooler will do most of its work after the boost run. Since the temperature difference between the water and the front core is small compared to the temperature difference between the boost charge and the water, the time required to cool the water down is much greater than the time required to heat it up. This is another reason for running the water pumps ail the time. The front core does not need to be as big as it may seem at first glance, because the relative cfm rates through the two cores will usually be heavily biased toward the front cooler. For example, a forward velocity of just 60 mph could potentially put 5280 cfm through a cooler of 1 square foot area. Surely it is another case of bigger is better, but not really enough better to get carried away with huge front coolers.

[MR2]

Remember when I was keen for the Water to air? that was a long time ago :p

[MR2]

oh, and VR4tune, IF I were to do a front mount, that would be EXACTLY what I'd be after.

[mb7050]

Remember when I was keen for the Water to air? that was a long time ago :p

nope, i don't remember that one.

[BigTyla]

Water-to-air is a great alternative if you are really against a front-mount or simply don't have enough room up front. It's great for drag racing! Just remember that you have more parts that can break in that system. :p

[MR2]

Water to Air vs. FMIC - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f35/water-air-vs-fmic-431410/)
DIY waic?? - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f35/diy-waic-419901/)
SMIC Kits - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f155/smic-kits-409133/)
Air to liquid charge cooler - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f42/air-liquid-charge-cooler-264384/)
roof scoop - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f11/roof-scoop-187250/)
Air to liquid charge cooler - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f42/air-liquid-charge-cooler-264384/)
Electronically Refrigerated Intercooler - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f42/electronically-refrigerated-intercooler-264473/)




2005...I was young then :p

[niterydr]

For those stateside, I'd recommend Bell cores for those that are doing it themselves. When we were making intercoolers their cores performed impeccably.

[mb7050]

i heard your large sidemounts did not work too well :)

[MR2]

Spill?

[niterydr]

i heard your large sidemounts did not work too well :)

They worked well for the size, but eventually there wasn't enough flow thru the 6" core to cool the air-charge.

Switching to a 5" thick FMIC and temps dropped from 220 to 98, same boost levels.

[MR2]

Need more info :p

[mb7050]

Do you happen to remember the core sizes(height and length) and ic piping diam ?

[BigTyla]

For those stateside, I'd recommend Bell cores for those that are doing it themselves. When we were making intercoolers their cores performed impeccably.

Agreed. I've been looking at Bell intercoolers myself for both SMIC and FMIC options.

[GTOJOE]

They worked well for the size, but eventually there wasn't enough flow thru the 6" core to cool the air-charge.

Switching to a 5" thick FMIC and temps dropped from 220 to 98, same boost levels.

Does a 5" core fit under our front bar?

[IPD]

allright goddammit, which idiot on GI posted in this thread?

[mb7050]

for some reason i think the internal flow area wasnt the issue but the ambient air was not passing thru the ics well enough. Youll need high ambient air speeed or fans to provide the extra ambient air flow at low speeds or otherwise they will heatsoak



not sure about the bell cores but atleast i do need because very dense outernal fin density and a 5.3" thick core and a street car

[vr4tune]

Does a 5" core fit under our front bar?

NO, 3.5 inch is largest that what ETS makes for our cars!

[MR2]

derailing a bit...the TB on the intake of the turbo is interesting

[mb7050]

"the reason for the tb or inlet guide vanes aka IGV, was so when the throttle was closed on the engine, the igv also closed, so the turbo couldnt take in any air, allowing the turbo to free-wheel & minimize the ability for the turbo to slow down.....

with no igv, the turbo would take in air, loading up the area between the closed engine tb & compressor wheel of the turbo. when this area gets filled up, the turbo slows way down because there is no energy driving the exhaust side of the turbo with closed throttle blades = turbo lag."

GL-TURBO LLC: IGV - Inlet Guide Vanes (http://www.glturbo.com/english/inlet.asp)

igv, isv, etc. were also used in CART by Cosworth & Honda.

[MR2]

Too hardcore for me :p

[vr4tune]

sure is, I didn't get the core anodized though, want just a hair of bling :)

Here is some ETS BLING with color option other than black

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss357/vr4tune/ETS%20color%20intercoolers/e8958141.jpg
http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss357/vr4tune/ETS%20color%20intercoolers/3a6de9a9.jpg
http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss357/vr4tune/ETS%20color%20intercoolers/7f94f0c0.jpg

[CoopKill]

Damnit, gold would have been good too!

Love mine, I just need snails to push her hard now.

Oh and I love the polished upper, and P/C black lower. Hides it away for the sleeper look...

[mb7050]

pimp my intercooler yo
http://www.photochopz.com/gallery/data/500/62794955c4f6c2d36.png

[mb7050]

sleeper look on the outside, bling underneath the hood. FTW

[IPD]

NO, 3.5 inch is largest that what ETS makes for our cars!

you're telling me a 4" core won't fit? i call BS.

[vr4tune]

you're telling me a 4" core won't fit? i call BS.

If its shorter horizontally it might. IPS 4 inch requires removal of crash bar. My end tanks taper at the ends and almost hit. If the crash bar is modified the it probably would. the crash bar curves reducing space.

[vr4tune]

Just taken for you Thaddeus :)

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss357/vr4tune/ETS%20color%20intercoolers/e753b76f.jpg

[IPD]

If its shorter horizontally it might. IPS 4 inch requires removal of crash bar. My end tanks taper at the ends and almost hit. If the crash bar is modified the it probably would. the crash bar curves reducing space.

if the end-tanks are slanted rearward as well, that can fix a lot of issues with fitment around the crashbar.

[vr4tune]

They are slanted a lot

[vr4tune]

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss357/vr4tune/ETS%20color%20intercoolers/ff55f335.jpg
http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss357/vr4tune/ETS%20color%20intercoolers/fead07d4.jpg

[niterydr]

Need more info :p

Car made 620awhp essentially tapped out with the sidemounts (black graph), turbo's running around 35psi. Then we added a 60 shot of nitrous to cool down the intake charges from the 220 IAT's (no nitrous after 2 pulls, 1st pull was 190 IAT) to around 150IAT (back to back), got it around 680awhp (green graph)

Adding the FMIC dropped IAT's to around 95 back to back to back pulls (dyno run simulations/from roll 3-4-5 race simulations). Lifted the heads on the 720awhp pull while seaking out power, but it held all day around 715 before we wanted "even more" (pink graph)

3596
When the car made a little shy of 500awhp it trapped at 127 in the 1/4 mile on 93 octane. This was back in 2005 using some of the PTE 50 trim's in TD05 Housing configuration (choked)

660 was its near 136 pass with it picking up something like 42 or 43mph on the big end after nearly hitting the wall on the 1/2 shift :(.


the sidemounts + spray (roughly 710) yielded a "from roll" race versus a 03 cobra that trapped 154 (9.5 car). 50-160ish, stealth by a length (then proceeded to stay in it to wind out fourth to 8800rpm) **This was on a closed circuit**

Wish I would have left it at the 715 setting (take the pink graph and make it level to 8800rpm), put on slicks, and let it buck! Probably would have gone better than 11.45@135.76, LOL.


Best dyno graph:
3598



Do you happen to remember the core sizes(height and length) and ic piping diam ?
SMIC I think were: 8.4x8x6" x2
FMIC I think was: 24x12x5" (may have been a bit larger, see below picture)
3597

Piping was 2.25" post turbo, 3" after intercooler on both setups.


Does a 5" core fit under our front bar?

No. If you trimmed it back enough it might fit, we went with a chromoly bumper replacement/brace and opened up the bumper opening for max airflow.

[MR2]

Very interesting info thanks..

so your problem wasn't so much that the SMIC's ran out of flow..just that they heatsoaked by the looks? and in theory, in the "real world" this problem would have been reduced due to getting high pressure/higher speed air forced in the front right? if your getting lower temps with the FMIC should I put it down to the FMIC having a larger exposed area and more importantly getting a helping hand from the 2 radiator fans pushing through everything?

the PTE 50 trim comparison is interesting, as that's exactly what I have sitting on a shelf, guess it's time to start looking at a T3 hot side instead.

[niterydr]

Very interesting info thanks..

so your problem wasn't so much that the SMIC's ran out of flow..just that they heatsoaked by the looks? and in theory, in the "real world" this problem would have been reduced due to getting high pressure/higher speed air forced in the front right? if your getting lower temps with the FMIC should I put it down to the FMIC having a larger exposed area and more importantly getting a helping hand from the 2 radiator fans pushing through everything?

the PTE 50 trim comparison is interesting, as that's exactly what I have sitting on a shelf, guess it's time to start looking at a T3 hot side instead.

Heatsoak was just as bad on the street, sans maybe 10-15 degrees cooler, we had some HUGE fans at our shop. I could tell when we reached the heatsoak/horsepower choak point, on pump gas (500awhp) they worked great, once we passed the 28psi threshold ~600awhp the intake temps just started to skyrocket. By the mid 30's I had to use nitrous to keep the intake temps reasonable. The findings we had on the dyno is the reason why we never released sidemounts. We even tried different intake designs and had some sandcasted, eventually we just gave up on the idea as the product did not meet our standards/what we wanted it to do.

The FMIC had a much larger core size AND exposure to airflow. Intercoolers are a tricky topic as you need to find a blend of pressure drop and temperature removal. In order for a intercooler to work properly it needs some pressure drop to slow down the air, but large enough cooling channels (tubes if you will) to promote good CFM flow (aka not choak), AND cool off the air charge.

I'd recommend the T3 hot side, more choices. If I had a choice to go with a .82 T3 I would have picked up another 30+hp easy.

[mb7050]

SMIC cores that size should flow about 911cfm each 1822cfm total
FMIC core that size should flow about 850-1200cfm total

according to Bells charts

The heat sink capacity on both is similar

Pressure drop on the SMICS should be slightly less

so it all comes down to thermal efficiency

[mb7050]

with the smics of that size one would want cores with a maximal thermal efficiency ie very dense internal fin/ribs density dense/design and very dense external fin density(this also means higher pressure drop and also means its harder for the ambient air to penetrate the cores). Then it comes down to the ducting and ambient air speed.

[niterydr]

SMIC cores that size should flow about 911cfm each 1822cfm total
FMIC core that size should flow about 850-1200cfm total

according to Bells charts

The heat sink capacity on both is similar

Pressure drop on the SMICS should be slightly less

so it all comes down to thermal efficiency

I must have been off on the measurements then let me see what I can dig up, I am fairly certain the FMIC had more CFM flow than the SMIC, I may be understating the size of the FMIC.

Edit:
12x24x4.5" core : PTE's "1300hp" core.

So it was a PTE core (Garrett) for the FMIC, Bell for the SMIC and they were 8.4"x8"x6" each

[mb7050]

if they are from the same core manufacturer and of the same ic design .

the flow path in the smic is 6x8 and 8.4 long x 2

the flow path in the fmic is 4.5x6 and 24 long x 2

common sense tells me the smic should flow better than the fmic .

[mb7050]

oh thanks for the info .

Garrett btw makes great cores too .

[MR2]

Soo, to get your SMIC's operating better you need:

A: more surface area?
B: more vanes/canards forcing air into the side mount slots?
C: possibly fans behind the SMIC's to draw through when not on the throttle & vehicle speed is below 20kmh/SMIC temp over 100 deg c?
8x8 is pretty much stock front area, you can see why I'm pushing for 10x12 front area

[J. Fast]

You guys think a Treadstone 4.5" thick x 24" wide x 12" height will fit? Treadstone TR-12 4.5" Intercooler Turbo VW BMW Honda | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Treadstone-TR-12-4-5-Intercooler-Turbo-VW-BMW-Honda-/320734402601?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item4aad429829&vxp=mtr)

[mb3000]

Without a crash bar & some serious bumper trimming you should be fine. I've heard some great things about their ic's, and not much more than an ebay core.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

probably going to have to cut some stuff and remove the condenser.

[J. Fast]

I was thinking about cutting out the lower radiator box support and removing the front lower cross member. Toying with the idea of converting it to a 2" 120 dom bar and then putting two 1/4" plates on it to pickup the lower radiator supports. Hang the intrcooler from the buckets? It looks like there's room. I have 2" between the radiator core and my current greddy core 3" x "24 x 11". I really want to convert to an air to water or these sidemounts but it's not worth it to hack them up. I'm really unhappy with the three options I have on hand currently, first being Genes, then the Greddy, then the Oohnoo dual type.. All the piping comes across the manifolds = bad.

[J. Fast]

Not ony that but I think I'm out I'm out of core because the thoretical CFM says the cores are rated for 800 but the efficiency is low because I'm losing a minimum of 3psi across the cores wether it be the front or the sides. I think I need more core. Is there any added benefit to the Treadstone endtank shrouds, do they work?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

ets ....

[J. Fast]

I definitely like the routing. I suppose I can clock the front turbo and can make room. Do they sell just the pipes? When did that GB go down? I've never seen that setup before. Was that a 3si thing or somethin?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I'm sure they would sell it without the core if you asked them. I never saw a group buy, i just bought them from their website when they were running a sale.

[mb3000]

If you ask for the raw pipes, let me know how much they charge? If you don't mind.

[R/T93]

I know of some Alamo's with piping for sale, possibly....

[J. Fast]

If you ask for the raw pipes, let me know how much they charge? If you don't mind.

Just got off the phone with ETS.

ETS Intercooler pipe options are 2" diameter hot side and 3" cold side. The FMIC Core supplied with the kit is 3.5" x 26" x 12"

According to Michal Time at ETS you can a-la-carte their FMIC kit and the pricing is as follows:

1) $760 shipped for ALL the intercooler piping
2) $460 Shipped for just the hot side piping (the front and rear turbo outlet to intercooler)
3) $380 Shipped for the front hotside supply including the "Y"
4) $600 Shipped for the Core

[J. Fast]

I think I'm going to go with the TR12 or the TR1045. Treadstone says the cores are very efficient since they're staggered fin & bar and plate. I'm going to take some measurements and see what will fit. I think the 12" will fit, the greddy is 11" high so I'd imagine it'll work fine.

Treadstone TR1045 Core Stats:

Core Size, 10.5" X 22" X 4.5"
Overall length 30"
3" inlet/outlet
1040 CFM flow rate
860 HP efficient
Less than 2psi pressure drop at max flow


Treadstone TR12 Core Stats:

Core Size, 12.5" X 22" X 4.5"
Overall length 30"
3" inlet/outlet
1469 CFM flow rate
980hp efficient
1.5psi drop at max flow

EDIT forgot to add LINK: >>> http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/view.phtml?f_cat=Intercoolers: Intercoolers

[mb3000]

I appreciate it Jeremy.

[niterydr]

I think I'm going to go with the TR12 or the TR1045. Treadstone says the cores are very efficient since they're staggered fin & bar and plate. I'm going to take some measurements and see what will fit. I think the 12" will fit, the greddy is 11" high so I'd imagine it'll work fine.

Treadstone TR1045 Core Stats:

Core Size, 10.5" X 22" X 4.5"
Overall length 30"
3" inlet/outlet
1040 CFM flow rate
860 HP efficient
Less than 2psi pressure drop at max flow


Treadstone TR12 Core Stats:

Core Size, 12.5" X 22" X 4.5"
Overall length 30"
3" inlet/outlet
1469 CFM flow rate
980hp efficient
1.5psi drop at max flow

EDIT forgot to add LINK: >>> Intercoolers: (http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/view.phtml?f_cat=Intercoolers:) Intercoolers

I have a TRTT setup on my car and will be posting results once my AEM is back in house after being fixed. (Thought I bought a rebuilt one, guess not as it is fubar)

Granted results will be on a well tuned 9b car on pump and E-85, but should provide baselines and I would hope that intercooler can keep up at the sub 400awhp levels.

[J. Fast]

I have a TRTT setup on my car and will be posting results once my AEM is back in house after being fixed. (Thought I bought a rebuilt one, guess not as it is fubar)

Granted results will be on a well tuned 9b car on pump and E-85, but should provide baselines and I would hope that intercooler can keep up at the sub 400awhp levels.

I was looking at the TRTT in the 9".

TRTT9 >>> http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/product.phtml?p=36&prodname=TRTT+Series+Twin+Turbo+Intercooler <<<

Core Size, 25" X 9" X 3.5"
1-3" outlet and 2-2.5" inlets
1950 CFM flow rate
1300 HP efficient
2psi pressure drop at 1950cfm

I like that design too because you can bring the rear around the passenger side and tuck the front away and route under and keep everything away from the manifold. I also think the pipes are closer in length when routed that way.

It doesnt make sense to me how that could be rated for 1950CFM and 1300hp efficient if the core is smaller than the 12". Scratching my head??? Does it have to do with the end tank design or something?

[J. Fast]

So John at Treadstone said the TRTT is not suited for high boost over 20 psi. That core is for big discplacement low boost. For higher boost applications he said the longer core is much more effective and efficient in cooling. Apparently you need the added length in the TR12 to keep sinking the heat. The CFM is not a mis-print, but the TR12 is actually more efficient when running a higher boost threshold than 20psi.

Maybe Tyla can explain?

[MR2]

They are not rating it on it's ability to push air through it, they are rating it how much air it can cool down (how they are translating to HP I guess).

how much it can flow assuming the same core is pretty much a 2d calculation (with slight drop off over length)
how much thermal effect it can have on the air passing through it is very much to do with total core material since as discussed at length elsewhere, intercoolers spend more time providing somewhere to store heat as opposed to being a heat conduit.

it's a very irritating and incomplete calculation, but probably as far as they can go without spending serious money testing cores.

[BigTyla]

So John at Treadstone said the TRTT is not suited for high boost over 20 psi. That core is for big discplacement low boost. For higher boost applications he said the longer core is much more effective and efficient in cooling. Apparently you need the added length in the TR12 to keep sinking the heat. The CFM is not a mis-print, but the TR12 is actually more efficient when running a higher boost threshold than 20psi.

Maybe Tyla can explain?


They are not rating it on it's ability to push air through it, they are rating it how much air it can cool down (how they are translating to HP I guess).

how much it can flow assuming the same core is pretty much a 2d calculation (with slight drop off over length)
how much thermal effect it can have on the air passing through it is very much to do with total core material since as discussed at length elsewhere, intercoolers spend more time providing somewhere to store heat as opposed to being a heat conduit.

it's a very irritating and incomplete calculation, but probably as far as they can go without spending serious money testing cores.

It is also depth dependent, but there are diminishing returns there.

The longer core will be more effective at cooling the air but at the expensive of decreased throttle response and increased lag. As a consequence of the longer core, the air has more ground to cover and is therefore cooled longer. Also consider the number of tubes in the intercooler. The intercooler you referenced most recently is a good design as the tubes are aligned vertically to increase the number of tubes and hence the cooling efficiency.

[MR2]

best FMIC I've seen is that one from that bdrank had that was vertical mount core, was like a pair of side mounts together in front of the radiator :p

[niterydr]

That is weird, flow is flow. Unless they are thinking the efficiency of the core isn't as good as the rest of the intercoolers so intake air temps will rise more substantially, but you'd think the rating would be on a percentage of air temp drop, not a preset boost threshold.

20psi is fine, as this is a TD04 car and won't see to much more than 20psi anyway. Time will tell about the air intake temps, I can always toss a different FMIC on it later.

Regardless it is on the car and the car will be producing numbers, pending the cost to fix the AEM, here within the next month. 9b air heaters will be used to start.

[J. Fast]

I'm swapping over to some bigger TD-05's and was able to take this off for a comparo. These are my Gene's sidemounts compared to my Treadstone. I will also toss in my OEM's, Oohnoo dual inlet style, DSM sidemounts, and my Greddy.

My treadstone core is 4 3/4" x 13" x 23 1/2" = 1450ci. Gene's cores are about 900ci. Greddy FMIC is 3" x 11" x 22" about 725ci. My Treadstone is twice the size as my old FMIC.

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/Photo_060612_006.jpg
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/Photo_060612_007.jpg
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/Photo_060612_001.jpg
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/Photo_060612_003.jpg
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/Photo_060612_002.jpg
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/Photo_060612_004.jpg

[MR2]

So you are going to get a CFM vs pressure graph for us on all 3 types?

I'd be curious to see the same graph for through front of core flow.

[BigTyla]

Would love to see comparisons to DSM sidemounts.

[fullracegt]

i have a split second fmic,the water temp is always below the halfway
http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h372/fullracegt/04281933.jpg

[fullracegt]

as far as cooling all i have is an original oem radiator and a 120k service.
i do not support anything ssm does but for some reason i was lucky and recieved my parts.

-matt

[IPD]

i have a split second fmic,the water temp is always below the halfway
http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h372/fullracegt/04281933.jpg

i'm not sure if i want to use the core they sent me. yours is dual in/out, mine is single in/out. i'm also not sure where to mount it, since it appears to only have one single fastener/nut on the top/middle of the core.

oh, and FUCK SSM. bitches never returned my c3 oil coolers.

[fullracegt]

i believe the pit road m fmic mounted like that too,
pretty much everything they sold was cxracing anyway

[Defianse]

... the fitment was great...
Very informative thread on the whole! (Hopefully you're still following this)

I'm rebuilding a detonated engine and I gather I need to replace my stock intercoolers if I want to avoid more pain. I'm looking at the CX racing Intercooler kit and wondering if this kit needed any mods at all to make it fit? Their Exhaust headers would not fit without significant mods so just a little hesitant to take the leap with what looks like a really good kit at half the price of the 3SX Greddy.

[mb3000]

The CXracing fmic should fit fine. Lots of people run them without any major complaints.

If you want the best fmic I would look at the ETS kit. Very pricy, but it's got unique piping & the biggest core available for any full 3/s kit.

[CoopKill]

^^ What he said ^^

[vr4tune]

Cxracing fmic may cause you car to over heat.

[Defianse]

The CXracing fmic should fit fine. Lots of people run them without any major complaints.
If you want the best fmic I would look at the ETS kit. Very pricy, but it's got unique piping & the biggest core available for any full 3/s kit.

^^ What he said ^^

Cxracing fmic may cause you car to over heat.

Thx, appreciate the advice. I'll take a look at ETS although I am just looking for a suitable replacement for the stock units not necessarily 'better'.


Des
Sent from my Galaxy Tab 10.1

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I picked up a car with stock sidemounts yesterday and damn I forgot how nice it was to never have any pressure pulsing. I have mixed feelings about swapping the ets setup in.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

[mb3000]

One of the drawbacks of the MAF I guess.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

One of the drawbacks of the MAF I guess.

metering devices aside they can all have the pressure pulsing.

my 1992 also has cam gears I'm not swapping over, so we'll see if stock cam timing is better for it on 1995.

[mb3000]

You can tune that part of the map lean, so it doesn't surge/surges less. That would probably be something you'd want to experiment with.

[J. Fast]

This company in the UK? KW Engineering? Looks like a pretty sweet design. He gets on it... gone on the roadtest!

Tuning Ladeluftkühler / High Performance Intercooler SMIC Mitsubishi 3000GT .mp4 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/RQr8OTIFnN0)

[Unlogic]

This company in the UK? KW Engineering? Looks like a pretty sweet design. He gets on it... gone on the roadtest!

Tuning Ladeluftkühler / High Performance Intercooler SMIC Mitsubishi 3000GT .mp4 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/RQr8OTIFnN0)

Wow, those look really slick!

Found some more info about them here: http://www.kwe-racing.de/intercooler-kits/OEM-designed/::536.html

[GTOJOE]

Wow, those look really slick!

Found some more info about them here: KWE Automotive GmbH - tuning mitsubishi evo gt3000 intercooler leistungssteigerung High Performance Ladeluftkhler Mitsubishi GT3000 (http://www.kwe-racing.de/intercooler-kits/OEM-designed/::536.html)

These look like a copy of the ARC intercoolers I have. Almost identical design.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm289/1STGENGTO/P9120184Medium.jpg

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm289/1STGENGTO/P9120187Medium.jpg

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm289/1STGENGTO/P9120186Medium.jpg

[Ange]

Wow, those look really slick!

Found some more info about them here: KWE Automotive GmbH - tuning mitsubishi evo gt3000 intercooler leistungssteigerung High Performance Ladeluftkhler Mitsubishi GT3000 (http://www.kwe-racing.de/intercooler-kits/OEM-designed/::536.html)

too bad about the pricetag. 1190 euro / 1465$

[Ange]

They are going to be a tight fit :awesome: :scared2:


http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6513/10138205.jpg
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/421/88960374.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8435/62369041.jpg
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/4952/52121094.jpg


I also measured some weights

those ICs above
7 kilograms = 15.4323584 pounds each 14 kilograms = 30.8647167 pounds TOTAL yikes

OEM ICs
2 kilograms = 4.40924524 pounds each 4 kilograms = 8.81849049 pounds TOTAL remember that these have the pipes attached to them

China
2.6 kilograms = 5.73201882 pounds each 5.2 kilograms = 11.4640376 pounds TOTAL

So did you ever install these?

[mb7050]

yea i did

[Ange]

yea i did

how are they performing? heat soak much?

[mb7050]

I haven't driven the car yet.. I've been really busy with other stuff.

[n2nsanity]

There are too many damn choices in this forced induction world we live in. Maybe I'll do a VR4 to SL conversion to ease my mind. Anyone have a write up on AWD to FWD conversion for our cars? :lol7:

Wow, I'm way late on this one. Lot of good info in here though.

And there actually is a guy that did a vr4 to n/a conversion, lol.
http://www.3sgto.org/f2/convert-manual-auto-possible-without-changing-engine-harness-7801.html

[Patryn]

Any of you guys that went with the Bell SMIC setup, would you PM me some info on what you got and how it worked out? I'm trying to see if Bell already has a setup or diagram they can build from instead of mailing in a set of stock SMIC's for them to build from if possible.

[Unlogic]

Any of you guys that went with the Bell SMIC setup, would you PM me some info on what you got and how it worked out? I'm trying to see if Bell already has a setup or diagram they can build from instead of mailing in a set of stock SMIC's for them to build from if possible.

I'll be able to give you some info in a month or two when the snow has melted and my car is back on the road again.

You can follow the progress here: http://www.3sgto.org/3000gt-stealth-gto-related-topics/10823-slightly-tweaked-3000gt-tt.html

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Any of you guys that went with the Bell SMIC setup, would you PM me some info on what you got and how it worked out? I'm trying to see if Bell already has a setup or diagram they can build from instead of mailing in a set of stock SMIC's for them to build from if possible.


- the Price for the set of side-mount Intercoolers, our P/N A350084080GTVR1 and A350084080GTVR2, equipped with Core-Dimensions A= 3.5”, B= 8.4”, C= 8.0”, is $ 1,456.00, minus a 20% “Cyber-Monday” – Discount ( $ 1,164.80), if ordered today, plus Freight
- the (current) Lead-Time is (3 weeks)

We appreciate your Consideration !

Gerhard M Schruf
Bell Intercoolers, Inc.
Tel: 830-438-6150
Fax: 830-438-6170

[Patryn]

- the Price for the set of side-mount Intercoolers, our P/N A350084080GTVR1 and A350084080GTVR2, equipped with Core-Dimensions A= 3.5”, B= 8.4”, C= 8.0”, is $ 1,456.00, minus a 20% “Cyber-Monday” – Discount ( $ 1,164.80), if ordered today, plus Freight
- the (current) Lead-Time is (3 weeks)

We appreciate your Consideration !

Gerhard M Schruf
Bell Intercoolers, Inc.
Tel: 830-438-6150
Fax: 830-438-6170

Below reply from Bell; I guess I'll have to wait until I get a chance to send in some stock intercoolers for them to have something to go off of. Trying not to go with the CXracing duel core, but our side mount options are limited to say the least.

That helped to identify the Units, but, unfortunately, the Intercoolers were produced based on a set of Factory-Units, supplied by our Customer, meaning we did not have to produce any drawings; I am very sorry, but the minimal records we have, do not allow us to re-produce another set.

[MR2]

not sure it's worth getting stock sized coolers from Bell?

[Patryn]

not sure it's worth getting stock sized coolers from Bell?

Obviously not the stock size coolers for TD05's. For some reason on a back to back test, the stock side mounts do no pressure pulse, whereas the CXRacing FMIC does. Just looking for high quality sides so I get maximal flow of air to the radiator and an intercooler that can handle moderate boost.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Below reply from Bell; I guess I'll have to wait until I get a chance to send in some stock intercoolers for them to have something to go off of. Trying not to go with the CXracing duel core, but our side mount options are limited to say the least.

That helped to identify the Units, but, unfortunately, the Intercoolers were produced based on a set of Factory-Units, supplied by our Customer, meaning we did not have to produce any drawings; I am very sorry, but the minimal records we have, do not allow us to re-produce another set.

WTF, when I talked to Gerald he said he could start making them no problem.

Doesn't matter, for that much money I can live with the minor annoyances of a fmic. They must be on another planet.

[rwdfan]

Could someone paraphrase this thread for me? I've read about 10 pages of this thread and I am more confused than ever. Front mount or side mount, and which models/companies are the good ones to get?

[apickle]

FWIW, the coolers that Forest Gump posted about are the same size as mine. They're similar in "face" size to the stock coolers, but much thicker and bar/plate rather than tube/fin. The quoted price is the same as I paid as well. I just wanted something that fit in the stock locations, and utilized stock-routed piping. It was either this, DSM conversions, or try and find a set of the HKS or other sidemounts. I'm well aware of the price and limitations compared to a FMIC, but it's simply another option that people can use. I never asked, but I assumed they probably didn't keep a record of the fab process on mine, since they jigged them using a set of stock IC's. I doubt the market for 3/S sidemounts is large enough to justify making a permanent jug fixture or keeping detailed plans around.

[sergechronos]

Could someone paraphrase this thread for me? I've read about 10 pages of this thread and I am more confused than ever. Front mount or side mount, and which models/companies are the good ones to get?

SMICs are expensive but don't have the overheating or boost surge problems that Front Mounts might. Conversely, you can get a big FMIC core and piping for less and can be just fine.

I think overall point is that if you aren't tracking your car, and you do the proper ground work for whichever you want to go with (ducting, venting, etc.) you probably won't notice a difference IMO.

[MR2]

you guys know that the FMIC can have a balance tube? that and you could just buy a Dual core FMIC? even better a dual core vertical FMIC? still does not help with the overheating issues, but if your only issue is the surge :)

the problem I have with the stock SMIC's is you can fit a LOT bigger in those spaces.. I have a whole thread on it

[CoopKill]

SMICs are expensive but don't have the overheating or boost surge problems that Front Mounts might. Conversely, you can get a big FMIC core and piping for less and can be just fine.

I think overall point is that if you aren't tracking your car, and you do the proper ground work for whichever you want to go with (ducting, venting, etc.) you probably won't notice a difference IMO.
I had the surge issues with 9b's, and oem sides, so this is not the case in all situations. If it were that easy, I would have spent cash on custom sides.


you guys know that the FMIC can have a balance tube? that and you could just buy a Dual core FMIC? even better a dual core vertical FMIC? still does not help with the overheating issues, but if your only issue is the surge :)

the problem I have with the stock SMIC's is you can fit a LOT bigger in those spaces.. I have a whole thread on itBalance tube does not solve completely, and does nothing for some.

[MR2]

surely all the other cars that run FMIC's with a pair of turbo's have dealt with this issue one way or another?

[Ange]

you guys know that the FMIC can have a balance tube? that and you could just buy a Dual core FMIC? even better a dual core vertical FMIC? still does not help with the overheating issues, but if your only issue is the surge :)

the problem I have with the stock SMIC's is you can fit a LOT bigger in those spaces.. I have a whole thread on it

Pros and cons with both. You just have to decide which outweighs the other. Personally i think smics are the better choice up untill a certain hp limit.

Smics are fine on these cars up untill about 600-700 hp or so(?). After that the surface area becomes a limitation. The limited surface area is compensated with thickness. Which leads to heatsoak. With big hp numbers anyways. :)

[Patryn]

surely all the other cars that run FMIC's with a pair of turbo's have dealt with this issue one way or another?

In my case I swapped out the CXracing standard FMIC for stock side mounts and problem goes away. However, stock side mounts are not going to cut it for TD05 16G turbos. I think I'll give Bell intercoolers a try once I get back home and can ship them a set of stock intercoolers to build from.

[MR2]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Side mounts, but a lot of the top end modified cars seem to run front mount exclusively, surely there is a known good solution for it?

according to my calculations you can fit around a 11x10 inch frontal area SMIC on each side, that's a LOT of area only thing you end up with an issue for is when you FMIC the car it has the car's electric fans cooling the FMIC at idle, which seems to help alot.

[SHADES TREGO 88]

Does the SMIC kit by HKS Still get super-heated like the stock ones do? Also, is the HKS kit even still availible? or is it discontinued? I'm debating HKS SMIC vs. the ETS FMIC

[CoopKill]

Save your money, don't buy the hks. Not much of an upgrade. Convert some DSM sides, or go with a front mount.

[R/T93]

HKS is ok for anything but drag racing hot laps or 600+ crank hp.

[mb7050]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Side mounts, but a lot of the top end modified cars seem to run front mount exclusively, surely there is a known good solution for it?

according to my calculations you can fit around a 11x10 inch frontal area SMIC on each side, that's a LOT of area only thing you end up with an issue for is when you FMIC the car it has the car's electric fans cooling the FMIC at idle, which seems to help alot.

if you dont go too crazy with the cores you can fit electric fans , just a few hours of extra work..

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/4172/imag0726b.jpg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3669/imag0732g.jpg

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/4629/imag0080kp.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4795/imag0081py.jpg

[CoopKill]

Don't the fans on the side mounts block more flow than they create at speed?

[mb7050]

sure they do but I need them to provide that extra air flow at a stop and lower speeds .

[CoopKill]

Gotcha..

[mb3000]

I would just get a cry02 sprayer if you're worried about cooling down your cores when at idle. That way they aren't inefficient at speed, when you would really need them.

[Tigchamp]

Here are the fans on my Dejon's:D

http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz93/Tigchamp/GTO%20UK/oilcooler005.jpg

http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz93/Tigchamp/GTO%20UK/oilcooler004.jpg

Jeff:cool:

[GTO-SIMON]

how much did they cost matey, and do they work well,as you prob know i have dnp side mounts and ben at euro said it my side mounts that was resricting more power and that i should go for front mount i dont like front mounts,think it spoils look,dell was getting 500bhp with my set up i am getting 415bhp with 450 torque at 1.1bar even gt-p pete said i should be getting the same as dells car,cheers mate,simon next time i am in bournmouth will let you know mybe we could meet up for drink.

[Tigchamp]

how much did they cost matey, and do they work well,as you prob know i have dnp side mounts and ben at euro said it my side mounts that was resricting more power and that i should go for front mount i dont like front mounts,think it spoils look,dell was getting 500bhp with my set up i am getting 415bhp with 450 torque at 1.1bar even gt-p pete said i should be getting the same as dells car,cheers mate,simon next time i am in bournmouth will let you know mybe we could meet up for drink.

Hi Simon, as yet the car has not been mapped properly, I will be turning them on with the AEM.
The Dejons are quite a bit bigger than the DNP's As pete says there is no reason for you to have less power with the same setup, I think I read somewhere that the standard SMIC's are good for 450.
The fans are only for when the car is under 40 MPH to stop the heatsink when stationary, I will PM you a link on OC for the fans
Jeff

[DrewVR4]

Can anyone with Bell smic setup post up experience with it? I'm interested in fit and performance. Seems like they might be a good option for me, but I'm curious to see how it worked out for people here

[Unlogic]

Can anyone with Bell smic setup post up experience with it? I'm interested in fit and performance. Seems like they might be a good option for me, but I'm curious to see how it worked out for people here

I just got new mounting brackets welded on my set so I'll be installing them today. I'll post some pics and info in my build thread shortly.

[apickle]

The Bells are very dependent on what you send them, since they're all custom fabbed. My mounting brackets were fair, I couldn't use the stock grommets from the factory intercoolers, but the notches in the tabs were close enough to just bolt the intercoolers to the OEM mounting holes. The pipes were all good, except one was just a touch shorter than the factory set. All in all, they fit well.

[Unlogic]

The Bells are very dependent on what you send them, since they're all custom fabbed. My mounting brackets were fair, I couldn't use the stock grommets from the factory intercoolers, but the notches in the tabs were close enough to just bolt the intercoolers to the OEM mounting holes. The pipes were all good, except one was just a touch shorter than the factory set. All in all, they fit well.

I agree with you. The problems most people have with the Gene fabricated Bell intercoolers isn't because of the core size but rather the flimsy unaligned mounting brackets. They could have been done much better.

Here is a whole thread on 3SI which describes most of the problems related to the sets Gene sold: http://www.3si.org/forum/f35/genes-performance-ginormous-sidemount-intercooler-install-thread-512937/

I ended up having to remove all brackets on mine and weld on new sturdier brackets that allowed me to mount the intercooler closer to the car and slightly further back from front.

Here is how the new brackets look:

http://pics.unlogic.se/3000gt/projekt/IMAG2237.jpg

http://pics.unlogic.se/3000gt/projekt/IMAG2240.jpg

http://pics.unlogic.se/3000gt/projekt/IMAG2257.jpg

There are a few more pics available in my build thread here: http://www.3sgto.org/3000gt-stealth-gto-related-topics/10823-slightly-tweaked-3000gt-tt.html

I pair of bell cores with slightly slimmer end tanks maybe like the HKS ones would be an easy fit. The gene ones are a really tight fit due to the end tank design.

[DrewVR4]

The Bells are very dependent on what you send them, since they're all custom fabbed. My mounting brackets were fair, I couldn't use the stock grommets from the factory intercoolers, but the notches in the tabs were close enough to just bolt the intercoolers to the OEM mounting holes. The pipes were all good, except one was just a touch shorter than the factory set. All in all, they fit well.

Any thoughts on the performance?

[DrewVR4]

The Bells are very dependent on what you send them, since they're all custom fabbed. My mounting brackets were fair, I couldn't use the stock grommets from the factory intercoolers, but the notches in the tabs were close enough to just bolt the intercoolers to the OEM mounting holes. The pipes were all good, except one was just a touch shorter than the factory set. All in all, they fit well.

What size cores did you get?