Crankcase Ventilation

[mb7050]

Lately I have been thinking should I install a simple belt driven vacuum pump where the ac unit normally sits that way I could create the desired 15" of vacuum in the crankcase under all conditions + more power maybe.

http://www.lsxtv.com/forum/attachments/315d1208986965-gzmotorsports.jpg

http://www.lsxtv.com/forum/gz-motorsports-lsx-vacuum-pump-kit-194.html

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/vacuum-pumps.html.

I wonder have anyone done it before is it worth a try ?

I remember Import Power had electric one in his car back in 2005 or so what ever happened ?



please share your thoughts.

[Intropy]

Once again I´m thinkin how could I improve the stock crankcase ventilation system ?
less oil contamination and no need to vent the crankcase back to intake is what matters most to me.

Remove PCV, vent all 4 ports (draft tubes).

Or, krank vents. Anything else is unnecessary.

[RL7]

Crankcase vacuum can have a positive effect on power. I think it is a very good idea. Only problem is that you may lose some power to operate the pump, but I'm pretty sure the positive increase in power would offset this. I don't recall exactly, but mabye something like 10-15 hp is possible. I once tried to use an electric smog pump to do this on my bmw, but it burned out quickly. There is another system that uses venturi effect in the exhaust to suck gasses out of the crankcase, but I think I read that this wasn't all that effective or had some sort of negative effect (I forgot). I do think some sort of electric pump would be the best way, but you would need one hell of a pump (powerful and rugged enough to withstand crankcase gasses).

Bit of interesting reading I just goggled up quickly:
http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/crankcase_vacuum_facts.html

[mb7050]

Remove PCV, vent all 4 ports (draft tubes).

Or, krank vents. Anything else is unnecessary.

I think the stock pcv system works better than draft tubes (excluding high hp applications) in stock form (under 400hp) our pcv system vents the crankcase pretty well = less oil contamination but there is no vacuum in there never only air circulation.


I had krank vents the bigger one failed
positive pressure in the crankcase = bad = popped a dipstick = oil everywhere .
When boosting krank vents do no good.They do create the desired vacuum in there but only when there is vacuum in the intake.


If I get around installing the vacuum pump I would still want to have some air circulation in there like in stock form (pcv) and I "think" 15"-20" vacuum would be good .

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/812/vacuumpump.png

[mb7050]

Good motors don't pop dipsticks
Good motors don't dribble at the filler cap.
Good motors don't need the PCV system modifting.
Good motors don't need krank vents.


Steve

If you run more that 18psi of boost I have noticed that stock pcv valve leaks ocassionally .

and if you order this engine from mitsubishi it doesnt have pcv system on it, there must be a reason.
http://www.fictrading.com/ralliart3000gt/puma6g72.jpg

[mb7050]

The best fix is to park it up and buy a cheap runabout until you can fix it properly rather to try a bandaid fix.

Steve

There is nothing wrong with my engine/car :)

[green-lantern]

Remove PCV, vent all 4 ports (draft tubes).

Or, krank vents. Anything else is unnecessary.

I don’t really feel the stock system is very good. I’ve been thinking of doing this for a while. When under boost the valve closes and a lot of engines build up pressure in the crankcase causing pressure in the turbo oil return lines causing the turbo seal to leak. A guy I work with is an old school engine builder that owned a machine shop for years. They would build engines with custom rings that had less resistance and ran a vacuum pump like this. I believe something like this would not only prolong turbo life but engine life and improve performance. I have been thinking of tapping into the system somewhere and hooking up a pressure gauge to do some testing. I’m sure some engines could benefit more than others but I believe all would benefit some.

[mb7050]

I have run pressure gauge hooked to my crankcase since 2005 :D

[green-lantern]

I have run pressure gauge hooked to my crankcase since 2005 :D

We should talk :) I wish I would have done it on my old 10:1 engine and compared it with my new 8:1.

[mb7050]

There is another system that uses venturi effect in the exhaust to suck gasses out of the crankcase, but I think I read that this wasn't all that effective or had some sort of negative effect (I forgot).

Exhaust slashcut evacuation

[mb7050]

Some good general info about the subject



This thread marks the conclusion to my preliminary tests started over 1 year ago.
You may want to familiarize yourself with the purpose and function of the stock PCV system with my original thread first.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=697498

The purpose of the stock PCV system falls under 3 categories:

1) Performance
2) Emissions standards
3) Reliability

Performance
It is well known that performance gains can be had if the crankcase is under a slight source of vacuum which helps reduce crankcase windage losses. Many domestic users have seen decent gains by using either an electric or mechanical pump to help evacuate the pressure generated in the crankcase and even generate a vacuum present. Regaining lost power through the introduction of vacuum pressure evacuating the crankcase will not be as noticeable on a small displacement 4 cylinder as compared to a larger displacement 8cyl domestic. Despite this, it should still be of importance to explore the various configurations and attempt to "free-up" any power hidden in our engines which can easily be tested on a dyno.

Emissions Standards and Reliability
In order to comply with US emission standards honda had to use a closed PCV system which eliminated oil vapor from escaping into the atmosphere either from the valve cover or the crankcase breather. Oil vapors being introduced into our cylinders hurts performance and increases the probability of detonation occurring. The stock PCV system allows for the introduction of oil vapors into our intake manifold which hurts performance and reliability(a stock intake manifold is usually caked with collected oil and soot over the years).

A stock PCV system is far from an optimal configuration in terms of performance and reliability. The best arrangement is to create a vacuum inside the crankcase of 14-15 inches/Hg (7psi). You do not want to create higher vacuum than 15 in/Hg because you will begin to suck oil from valve guides, piston rings, and bearings which will have dramatic consequences. Inducing a vacuum in your crankcase will lower oil pressure slightly which may be alarming but shouldn't be because the oil volume is still present. 2-5 % increase in whp is not uncommon with a properly setup vacuum drawn crankcase pulling 15in/Hg.

This Vacuum will quickly remove unburnt Air/Fuel from blow-by gasses. Blow-by contaminates engine oil, contributes to sludge buildup, and causes corrosion. Turbocharged and Supercharged cars have significant amounts of blow-by because of the pressure created inside the cylinders. Your first priority should be to attempt to create a vacuum in the crankcase to remove the blow-by or at minimum make it as easy as possible for this pressure to escape.

Evacuating the crankcase pressure can be done directly from the block or valve cover. It doesn't matter which method you prefer.

Test Engine:

B18c1
/// Freshly built Engine- leak-down #s 2-3% across the board
-- 9-1 CP pistons/Eagle Rods/Victor X Intake manifold/Lovefab sidewinder/
Arp Head-studs
-- 3" Down-pipe/3" Moroso Spiralflow resonator/3" mandrel exhaust/open
dump-tube/ Tial 40mm waste-gate
-- Freshly Built Head/ Supertech valves/ Titanium retainers/Dual Valve springs
-- Fresh Garrett 4 bolt t3/t4 turbo// 0.60 AR Compressor/ 0.63 Turbine
housing
-- Custom 2.5" intercooler pipe/ Custom Spearco 3.5"X12"X20" intercooler
-- Tuned with Hondata

Test Equipment:

Calibrated Dewyer Magnehelic Pressure Gauge
0-5 psi range // Accuracy +-2% ///

[mb7050]

more info

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Open Breather Ventilation
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This method is adequate for ventilating crankcase gasses in turbocharged/supercharged cars because the extra blow-by will force its way through any filter quite easily. You want to make sure you provide as many sources as possible to allow the pressure to escape with ease.

For H, F, and D series engines you can use the stock PCV line(excluding the PCV valve), Breather Line, and tap an extra 1-2 ports in the valve cover if wanted. You can attach a filter directly to the line or connect them to 1or2 catchcans with a breather filter on top.

You want to place the catchcan in the highest possible location you can locate in your engine bay. This will allow the catchcan to collect blow-by gasses without consuming excessive oil and allow a drainback line to easily flow oil/gas mixture back into the engine(if you choose to use this feature).

The sole purpose of a catchcan in an open breather system is to "trap" oil and blow-by gasses so they do not contaminate your engine bay and the environment. The surface area in the lines and the catchcan facilitate this. Increasing the surface area by using steel wool or other means will certainly help capturing these gasses but will also restrict them from escaping. The best compromise is to use a baffled catchcan such as one Moroso manufactures.



On B series engines it is preferable to ventilate the crankcase gases through 2 ports located on the back of the block. This arrangement can be accomplished by removing the PCV chamber behind the Intake manifold bracket and sealing the stock Crankcase ventilation hole. If you are running the stock Intake manifold you will want to also plug the PCV port on the Intake Manifold as well.



The Crankcase ventilation hole can be sealed with one of these 3 methods:
1) Aluminum Freeze Plug (34.4mm-34.6mm)
2) Aluminum circular plate epoxied with Devcon Liquid Aluminum
http://www.devcon.com/devconfa...id=34
3) http://www.z10eng.com/ makes a plug.

It is important that you seal this opening with an Aluminum plug and not a rubber one!

Remove the ports with a 14mm Allen(Snap-on) and install these 2 washers and ports as shown below(Honda part numbers shown):



Use reinforced high temp hose 5/8" ID. Their will be a port on the top of your block which normally connects a line to your PVC chamber. You can either seal this or T it off one of your ventilation lines. The last thing to do is place a small filter on your breather port located on your valve cover.

I ran this above setup for approximately 1 year with no problems. My car was daily driven hard boosting 17-18 psi. I tested this setup using the following configurations:
1) Drain-back feature to the one of the original lines
2) Back to the oil pan
3) Without the drainback feature.

When I removed the drainback feature I would fill the catchcan half full every 2-3 weeks. The evacuation lines would dis-color but never suck oil even when I used the stock Honda fittings without an anti-siphon tube. The contents of fluid collected inside the catchcan was mostly unburnt fuel and contaminants with very little oil. If you are experiencing excessive oil consumption in the catchcan I suggest you place your catchcan higher or do a leak-down test.

I suggest manually draining the catchcan instead of using the drainback feature to eliminate gasoline and contaminants from re-introducing themselves to your oil.

Bottom Line

Cost: 20-150 dollars(dependent upon open filter lines or use of catchcan)
Performance: Good(as long as their is enough ventilation)
Reliability: Good.
Environment: Horrible(no catchcan)- poor(Catchcan)

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Intake Manifold Vacuum Assisted Ventilation
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Turbocharged vehicles the Intake manifold sees both vacuum and boost pressure unlike in naturally aspirated cars. The PCV valve acts as a check valve blocking any pressure in the rare occasion their is backfire in the Intake Manifold. I have heard that some individuals placing a check valve in-line and allowing the Intake manifold to assist in ventilating the crankcase. The check valve insures that boost pressure doesn't enter into the crankcase through this line.

Ideally one would want to induce a gradual amount of vacuum up to 15 in/hg under full load. Connecting the evacuation line to the intake manifold would do the exact opposite of this. On a boosted vehicle the Intake Manifold will read 25in/hg at idle and 20-15in/Hg in low load conditions and quickly disappear when any moderate to high load conditions appear.

In a stock vehicle this is acceptable because the PCV valve meters the vacuum as shown:

Idle, Low load--- high vacuum pressures fully retract the pintle causing only a small vacuum draw on the crankcase.

Mild load conditions--- vacuum present in the intake manifold is not as strong so the pintle sits in the middle of the pcv valve allowing more vacuum to evacuate the crankcase.

High load + WOT conditions--- their is almost no vacuum present and the pintle is almost completely extended allowing the most amount of gasses to be drawn into the intake manifold.

Engine backfire--- the pintle fully extends and seals to eliminate any gasses from flowing from the intake manifold to the crankcase.

Not only are you pulling excessive vacuum at low load conditions you are contaminating the Intake charge with oil and unburnt fuel blow-by.

I cannot recommend this setup to anyone.

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Intake slashcut evacuation
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Using a slashcut tube to create vacuum is an old trick which works on the Bernoulli effect as air rushes past the tube at high velocities. Make sure you place the slash-cut opening in the opposite direction of the airflow.

One method for evacuating the crankcase is to allow the Intake(pre-turbo) to draw out these gasses. In my tests their was a linear load dependent vacuum drawn using this method. None to insignificant amount of vacuum drawn at idle and low load conditions, moderate load created 0.25 psi(0.5") of vacuum, and high load/WOT created a maximum vacuum of 0.5 psi (1") vacuum. One does not need to use a check valve with this approach as their is never any reason for pressure to force its way into the crankcase.

Their is a positive and negative aspect to this approach. The great thing about this method is that it is the only method which allows one to completely eliminate any blow-by gasses from contaminating the environment. The downside is that it contaminates the Intake charge with oil/fuel/contaminants.

Judging from the amount of contaminants I collected in my open breather catchcan every 2-3 weeks it would be absolutely insane to use this method without a sealed(no open breather element) and baffled catchcan in-line between the crankcase /valve cover and the intake. Keep in mind that most of the contaminants will be sucked into the intake as opposed to only some contaminants trapped in an open breather catchcan while the rest pollutes the environment.

Some good news is that the Intercooler piping and intercooler will act as a very large catchcan and trap most of these contaminants before they reach the engine. The bad news is that I suggest you periodically clean the inside of your intercooler and intercooler pipe.

Bottom Line


Cost: 20-150 dollars(dependent use of catchcan and welding)
Performance: Good(as long as the compressor housing/Intercooler are cleaned
periodically and a catchcan is used)
Reliability: Good.
Environment: Excellent(provided that you use no other open breather elements)

[mb7050]

and the rest




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mechanical Vacuum
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only people right now that make this for Hondas is:
http://www.z10eng.com/.

The great news is that this is the best setup from a performance/reliability perspective bar-none. The bad news is that it is extremely expensive and you have to run their complete oil pump setup thus loosing your AC compressor. My conversation with one of the owners a while ago led me to believe these guys are extremely knowledgeable and will customize your complete setup specifically to your needs. You can choose between a dry sump, wet sump oil system, or even add on a mechanical fuel pump. The vacuum generator can be manually adjusted for desired amount.

Expect to free up more whp then the standard 2-5% because this setup goes way beyond simply inducing vacuum in the crankcase.


Bottom Line


Cost: Variable. Expect around 2 grand.
Performance: Excellent.
Reliability: Excellent.
Environment: Poor.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Electric Vacuum pump
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have studied and tested the idea of using old electric brake booster vacuum pumps which were made for old GM vehicles to induce vacuum in the crankcase. Using an off the shelf electric vacuum pump to draw a specific amount of vacuum is tangled with complex problems.

These pumps run 16in/hg of vacuum at 13.7 volts and 19in/hg at 16 volts. Remember you don't want to draw more than 14-15" of vacuum and it is preferable that the vacuum is gradually increased in a linear fashion with load which these will not do without some tricky electronics.

I have studied both mechanical and electronic approaches to solving these dilemmas to no satisfaction. After all the problems I had wrestling electrical gremlins in an electric water pump I simply don't trust my engine on this device. Another cause of concern I have is when my alternator failed while I was driving I recorded very unusual voltage numbers jumping from 10-16.8 volts in odd patterns which could case problems for an electric vacuum pump.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exhaust slashcut evacuation
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is based upon the same Bernoulli effect mentioned before but uses exhaust gasses to draw out crankcase gasses instead.

Their are 2 ways of doing this:

1) Weld a slashcut tube in your waste-gate dump-tube
2) Weld a slashcut tube in your exhaust



In the first test I connected my Dewyer Magnehelic Pressure Gauge to the slashcut in my wastgate to measure the vacuum draw. As expected I only saw maximum vacuum drawn when the wastgate was open after reaching my maximum boost pressure set on my boost controller. The amount of vacuum went up from 0.25psi(0.5") to 0.4(0.8") vacuum. The numbers shown here were very similar to those shown with the Intake slashcut with the exception of being present when the wastgate started to open.


I chose to connect my valve cover breather and top port (oem- not modified plugs) on my block to the waste-gate slashcut tube. Check valves aren't really needed here but you can use one if it make you feel better.


For my second test I welding in a slashcut tube in my downpipe(12" from turbo). At first I had problems melting my high temp tubing with the heat from the downpipe and exhaust so I soldered together some copper pipe to solve this problem. I placed a check valve in-line on the top 6 inches of hose and wrapped it in reflective heat wrap as you can see.



At Idle the Dewyer Magnehelic Pressure Gauge showed 0.1-0.2psi of vacuum. Driving around town was more unpredictable. The gauge would oscillate between positive pressure(when i tested without the check valve) to 0.5 psi (1") to 1.1 psi ((2.2"). It rarely displayed positive pressure but I could find no simple pattern either rpm or load dependent. Typically it would bounce around 0.6psi to 1psi.



Here is a picture of the hose connected to the valve cover port without being tested. You definitely want to run a one way check valve in-line here.

I purchased the check valve for 1 dollar at a local junkyard. You can find the check valve in-line on the brake booster line on any honda.

Another source for a check valves and slashcut tubes(In case you don't feel like cutting your own is Moroso:


Bottom Line


Cost: 20-80 dollars (dependent upon if you have it welded or not)
Performance: Great.
Reliability: Great.
Environment: Poor.
Read more at http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1199935

[green-lantern]

Good read

[Intropy]

I have run pressure gauge hooked to my crankcase since 2005 :D

Dude, post up some numbers. Very few people have pressure sensors in their crankcase, it would be interesting to see what you show under different conditions.

[mb7050]

What do you want to know ? With 13 G ´s at 18psi I started to se some pressure in there ~~1psi when I ran completely stock pcv system back in 2005.

In the spyder I have tru boost hooked to the cc and I have alarm set to 1psi I can hardly see ~0.2-0.5 psi, only when I do looong 4-5 gear pulls (14.5 psi) . The weird thing is that in the spyder I can see some vacuum ~0.5 " beetween shifts Which is a good thing ..


.

[CoopKill]

In for further study!

[green-lantern]

Have you read this?

http://www.diyefi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=357

I very much doubt that you're aware that the TT PCV valve is different from the N/A PCV valve even though they look the same. The N/A valve is 2 way, the TT valve is one way.
It's easy for people to get them mixed up.

Looking at the the pic that MB7050 posted, the whole system is screwed up with no air entering the motor to remove the unburnt fuel along with the water.

Steve

I'm pretty sure OP knows the NA is different as most that are familiar with the platform. I'm not sure what you mean about screwed up? The air is coming from the intake and the vacuum pump is pulling the unburnt fuel water gasses ect.

[RL7]

I don't think you would want a breather if you were using that vacuum system. If you did that you would just be flowing fresh air through the crankcase. This isn't a bad thing, but I don't think any vacuum would be created unless that was a pretty powerful pump. That may be how it is designed to work though. The biggest challenge I would see here is keeping the vacuum at the right level since too much can actually do harm. This would probably make the a/c compressor unsuitable to the job. You probably would want something that takes significantly less power to spin.

I don't think you should be seeing any crankcase pressure with the stock system and a properly working pcv valve. Isn't the intake bubble under a little bit of vacuum when the turbos are boosting? I never really understood the krank vents. The main problem being if the extra pcv valve (oh, I mean "krank vent") clogs somehow, the crankcase will be pressurized. I mean, if you really want to do that, go get a couple of generic in-line pcv valves from autozone for $10 and have a custom set of "krank vents."

[green-lantern]

Going back to the factory system, 3SX list a PCV valve on their web page, but only one. Which one is it? if it's for an N/A and you put it on a TT, you'll pressurise the crankcase with boost and cause problems.

It's listed as a TT but is it?

If you want vacuum, why don't you just use the aircon pump?

Steve

http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=24320

They show three :confused:

[J. Fast]

I like the slashcut reference. I've seen a few different test results on Turbo Forums. Really cheap, no moving parts or clogged breathers, positive evacuation in all driving conditions. Just a really good idea unless you want to save the wales... :D

Jeremy

[RL7]

Found that you can use a vacuum relief valve to control the amount of vacuum:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/CDI-CONTROL-DEVICES-VacuumPressure-Relief-5Z764?Pid=search

I'm thinking mabye use an additional small turbo somewhere in the exhaust to pull vacuum..... A turbocharger shouldn't be hurt by blowby and they have been proven to last in an automotive engine environment, but you would have to run oil to it.

Has anyone actually seen proof of significant vacuum numbers produced by the slash cut method? The numbers I have seen (and the one's posted above) don't really make it look like it would be a worthwhile modification. I wouldn't be suprised if the stock pcv system pulled about the same vacuum as the slash cut method.

[mb7050]

If you look at those vacuum pump sets that gz sells there is always breather or breather tank and airflow / vacuum control valve plus you need to pick right sized vacuum pump .
http://www.gzmotorsports.com/vacuum-control.html
that vacuum relief valve is one option

I wish there would be a kit like this for our cars.
http://www.gzmotorsports.com/LSXVPK.html
http://www.gzmotorsports.com/4G63T-kit.html


Those vacuum pumps that gz sells should have no problem pulling good vacuum and some fresh air through valvecovers.

I wouldnt personally use slash cut in my car althought I know few 1000hp supras that do so but there is no power gain and no noticeable vacuum .

I wouldnt personally use a stock pcv valve if you plan to run more that 18psi of boost it may leak.

this is how the pcv valve (turbo) is supposed to work but I have noticed that it leaks ocassionally.

http://www.stealth316.com/images/pcv-operation.gif


I use stock pcv valve and a smaller krank vent. Like in this picture. I dont use the bigger one .
http://www.stealth316.com/images/kv-front-kv-detail.jpg



http://www.stealth316.com/images/kv-kit.jpg

[mb7050]

Looking at the the pic that MB7050 posted, the whole system is screwed up with no air entering the motor to remove the unburnt fuel along with the water.

Steve

There is air circulation in there and vacuum...
I have contacted gz I´ll see what they recommend...

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/812/vacuumpump.png

[gltasn]

i was running the stock pcv valve in tandum with the krankvents and popped my dipstick one day, after 2000 miles of hard driving without popping it. removed the stocker and now when i shut my car down it doesnt sound like a jet engine slowing down. the stock pcv was very restrictive when used with crankvents. was at a car show and asked someone that builds engines and he said with turbos some cc pressurisation will happen and to run a breather off the dipstick tube. so is anything gonna get fuct if i try that?

[mb7050]

There is a risk of lots of oil coming out from oil dipstick tube if cc is being pressurized which shouldnt happen as you know so I dont think putting a breather there is a good idea .

There is a good read about krankvents at http://www.stealth316.com/2-krankvents.htm

[RL7]

There is air circulation in there and vacuum...
This is just a some idea of mine I have contacted gz I´ll see what they recommend...

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/812/vacuumpump.png

This is pretty much what you want, except you would want the check valve on the line between the pump and the crankcase. That vacuum/pressure releif valve I posted can work either way, so you could actually use two of them- one set at 15 in Hg to prevent over-vaccuming and the other set to open at the lowest pressure setting to prevent crankcase pressurization in the event of a failure.

[J. Fast]

2388I really like this GZ Motorsport Kit... Best setup I've seen hands down. Mechanical vac pump, lock on breather on front and rear valve covers, equal length and diameter front and rear balance tube, end breather tank.

That's how you keep vac in the crankcase and a good ring seal!

[mb7050]

what I did and it worked pretty well, I removed all 3 valve cover vents to sent them to a catch can. Left the one pass front to lower intake with a higher flow PCV valve in place. This gave me good vacuum to evacuate while under vacuum (no boost) but LOTS of breathing room to evacuate the crankcase under boost.

^
this is what I´m going to try next

BUT I would route (see pic) to a dual exhaust slahcut (no catch can used). what do you think ?
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o310/hptech4564/AWD%20conversion/DSCF8794.jpg

[green-lantern]

^
this is what I´m going to try next

BUT I would route (see pic) to a dual exhaust slahcut (no catch can used). what do you think ?
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o310/hptech4564/AWD%20conversion/DSCF8794.jpg

LOL I kept reading this thinking I don't remember posting this but finally realized it wasn't my post just my pic. :awesome:

[mb7050]

thank you very much for that pic :)

[mb7050]

This here is a good read. It's very old but 100% accurate.

RTEC / 3000GT Engine problems due to overboost (http://www.rtec.ch/engine_problems.html)

Steve

brokenringlandiguess

[J. Fast]

This here is a good read. It's very old but 100% accurate.

RTEC / 3000GT Engine problems due to overboost (http://www.rtec.ch/engine_problems.html)

Steve

Steve, the setup we're discussing has nothing to do with busted ringlands. It has to do with keeping good seals and extending the life of an engine. Perfomance upgrade, not performance mis-hap. There's a number of proven benefits to vac pump and exhaust slash cut feeding the crankcase. Lots of power, lots of boost, and just another small piece of the upgrade puzzle.

Who gives a shit about busted ass ringlands and overboost. We're discussing simple performance upgrades to extend heat and pressure design limits of the top end and bottom end seals. This is not a band-aid or temp fix, it's an upgrade!

[green-lantern]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/54/picard_facepalm.jpg


Brokenringlandsagain

[J. Fast]

http: /www.brokenringlands/againagainagain/info/steve68/blowyourengine/techfordummies.com

[green-lantern]

lol......

[MR2]

The RX7 uses a air pump...dumps the air just before the cat so anything it dumps is burnt by the cat. nowhere to fit it though so I guess electric is the only option, if you fit electric your going to want some sort of variable speed control...I'm assuming you'd want a filter on the intake and to dump it as the RX does just before the cat.

[mb7050]

no electric pump is able to pull a vacuum in there but its good for positive or negative ventilation..

[MR2]

why is no electric pump able to pull a vacuum in the crank case? too much blow by or something? from what i can see you just need pressure restrictive PCV on each head and off you go?

couse always just go dry sump and use the scavangers :p

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/234420-crankcase-evacuation-lt1-smog-pump-how.html

[mb7050]

I mean significant vacuum under boost is unlikely with electric pump and i cant imagine it would last very long.

http://www.3si.org/forum/f42/electronic-pcv-system-255416/index34.html

[MR2]

would you really need that much vaccume though...

Thinking about it the head vents would be best vented outside the engine as opposed to being drawn back into the oil through the dry sump oil pump...unless you could get the oil pump to pump whatever it gets from the cases out into the exhaust(Via a catch can) as opposed to back into your tank?

seems like a pretty interesting balancing act between allowing fresh filtered air into the cams. stopping pressurised air getting back out that vent and keeping it all in the enclosed system.

and I'm assuming your saying that under far higher boost there is lesser of a vacume condition in the engine itself so the system gets overloaded?

I guess if you ignore the whole getting the piston rings to seal better bit and go with just attempting to have the engine vented to remove the contaminents in the oil you'd be making progress? from what I've seen of the loooong wording and diagrams under boost the car does not vent from the crank case/heads at all?

Edit: and ROFL at the ringland jokes going around...

[MR2]

well, GTO_Nemesis on GTOOC was making up a dry sump...or talking about it...
GTOOC - GTO/3000GT Owners Club • View topic - DIY Dry Sump (http://www.gtooc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=876)
seems like way overkill though.

still if you could get the sump +pump + pulley and belt for 2K that'd be an ok deal, pretty much put you on par with the SCE one, anyone got pictures of how the SCE one attach's? I have no idea how they attach the pump to the crank while retaining the stock balancer :| I guess if you totally removed the stock pump you could have it's area to connect your belt in.

[MR2]

Can you supply just the non-AC pump, bracket/mount, drive belt, drive sprockets and crank sprocket adapter separately from the complete package?

If so, how much for that lot with delivery to the UK please?
So you do not want the Oil tank, the oil pan, oil cooler, and fittings/hoses? Subtract $1,200 from the total then. You still have to have a remote oil filter and the oil thermostat. That makes it $2,300 total. I will thrown in free shipping. That's a pretty good deal.

The items list will be:
- Three-Stage Dry Sump Oil Pump for the non-A/C setup
- Drive Belt
- Drive Sprockets
- Crank Sprocket Adapter
- Remote Oil Filter
- Oil Thermostat
- Mounting hardware and brackets

Philip



Job done...no more talk needed aye.

[KeithMac]

This here is a good read. It's very old but 100% accurate.

RTEC / 3000GT Engine problems due to overboost (http://www.rtec.ch/engine_problems.html)

Steve

What`s a story about and idiot with a boost controller and no way to monitor knock got to do with this thread?.

[green-lantern]

The RX7 uses a air pump...dumps the air just before the cat so anything it dumps is burnt by the cat. nowhere to fit it though so I guess electric is the only option, if you fit electric your going to want some sort of variable speed control...I'm assuming you'd want a filter on the intake and to dump it as the RX does just before the cat.

I have an rx7. I need to check it out.

Btw there’s always a way :p

[MR2]

Check out the FC RX7, it's on the top left of the engine, not sure where it pulls it's air from, but dumps it just before the cat.

[green-lantern]

I guess this is what you are talking about?


Remove Air Pump (http://www.rx7.org/Robinette/air_pump.htm)

[MR2]

I think so, that one seems to have a clutch..I'm not sure the one my friend has on his car does though.

[i3igpete]

in the case of indian engine makers, they pumped air straight into the exhaust purely to reduce the HC percentage by increasing the total air flow (no intent of actually burning the HC's). a whole bunch of indian carmakers were doing that until they updated the emissions laws recently forbidding this workaround.

[MR2]

that's funny shit :p (the indian thing) I guess that's what Mazda were doing too.

so, back to the origional discussion, the stock system uses vacume in the intake manifold to suck crank case air/contaminents into the engine itself and burn them..all well and good during boost this system no longer works..and instead the crank case is vented before the turbo's which at this stage have negative pressure before them?? so the crank vents switch between where they dump the crap to? am I on the right path here?

sooo to stop everything getting much more complicated and expensive you need what...just to increase the diameter/flow off the stuff that operates under boost?

[green-lantern]

sooo to stop everything getting much more complicated and expensive you need what...just to increase the diameter/flow off the stuff that operates under boost?

Pretty much, the way I have mine now just gives extra places to vent under boost. When not in boost the valves close and the system is basically stock.

[MR2]

and if you wanted to get even fancier you could just put a filter on the lines that run into the vacuume sections...

[green-lantern]

and if you wanted to get even fancier you could just put a filter on the lines that run into the vacuume sections...

Well no, you run the risk of valve stem seals leaking when you do that. Like mine did.....

[MR2]

sorry, I mean an inline filter so the line continues at each end to where it's meant to?

[green-lantern]

I guess I don't understand what you mean.

[MR2]

well, the line from the rear head goes straight into the intake from memory (it's been 2 weeks since I've pulled the manifold off..my memory of it is fading hahaha) as opposed to disconnecting this line totally I'm just saying shove a filter in the middle of it :)

[MR2]

I suppose if you filter it that it pretty much only leaves you with exactly how much hot air is it adding to your intake...and if that's really a problem...could always have a mini intercooler for that air...but really that's just getting stupid :p

[green-lantern]

Oh OK gotcha

Mine is hooked up to the bubble again but the line has a one way valve. I wouldn't recommend unhooking that hose unless you do away with the PCV system all together like mine was because you would be pulling unfiltered air in and I believe it's designed to pull some vacuum on that line anyway. Just like hooking to the exhaust to get a vacuum I think the air running through the bubble puts a tad bit of vacuum on that line. I had all four corners of the valve cover vented so it just let air out but really didn't pull any in. After I did that my VSS started leaking though.

[MR2]

hmm sheeet! well I probably won't change anything for a while...but it'll be interesting to see if anyone else takes this up.

[RL7]

The electric pumps referenced a little earlier are designed for emissions and are on many cars. They usually pump fresh air into the exhaust during the first couple minutes of operation. For the hell of it, I tried to use one for crankcase evacuation on a BMW. Lasted mabye 20 minutes. I don't know if it broke because of the oily air or because it isn't designed to run continuously, but it didn't work.

[mb7050]

I ran across this and have to share :





Heres what I designed for my electric crankcase evacuation system. For boosted Apps It is programable to come on from 1-30 psi of boost. It's going on my 402@15psi. It fits in the stock battery tray. My battery is going in the rear compatment like the Z06
http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/8901/vacpumpcopy5ll.jpg
ELECTRIC CRANKCASE EVACUATION SYSTEM
Apply a vacuum source to the crankcase. Rather than putting a breather on the valve cover to let crankcase pressure out, pull the air out with a pump to create a vacuum.
Benefits of Negative Crankcase Pressure using an Electric Pump:

1) Prevents oil leaks from seals and gaskets by eliminating crankcase pressure.
2) Reduces parasitic losses from pistons pumping against crankcase air.
3) Improves piston ring seal.
4) Increases HP and makes your engine last longer.
5) Eliminates your PCV system and the possibility of oil being sucked into your engine keeping your intake system and combustion chambers clean.
6) Eliminates the need for mechanical belt driven evacuation pump that robs some HP and needs rebuilding frequently.
7) Superior to valve cover breathers and exhaust path suction type pcv systems which contaminate your exhaust system and mufflers with oil.
8) Pump can be set up with the filtered crankcase exhaust routed to air filter housing instead of out to breather if desired for a closed loop system (emission friendly).
9) Fits in factory battery tray for easy access to engine. (Battery must be relocated to trunk or rear compartment).
10) Ideal for Turbo, Supercharged and high compression engines which create higher crankcase pressures at high RPM’s/Loads.
11) Creates 5 inches of vacuum in your crankcase with a very high CFM air flow when needed at high RPM’s, exhausting and filtering all blowby, while still maintaining its vacuum for ring seal.
12) The waste oil level is easily seen through sight hose and drained through a valve on the side of catch can. If any oil vapors pass the modified Catch can, they will be condensed and caught in the Air Dryer before reaching the pump to ensure long pump life.

The Current draw is 7 amps. The Motor is a modified Bosch BMW M3 secondary air injection pump. I don't know the exact CFM rating,but it pulls a lot of air and hard. I have a 0-30 psi adjustable boost switch and a relay to activate it so it gets direct power from the battery.It's a lot more reliable than the GM air pumps some people are using and burn up with a couple drops of oil. It will definitely take care of any blowby and create about 5 inches vacuum in your crankcase.

It also acts as a breather when it's not running during idling or mild highway cruising with little or no boost.I think I will activate it at 3psi of boost to start and go from there The catchcan is shortened and modified inside to create 2 chambers.I took 2 months of testing to come up with this setup. I am going to put it on my car next week when the blower goes on my LS2 402@15psi. I will keep everyone updated with a new thread and post some dyno results .

Here is a pic with it in the car guys.I ran the exhaust up to the air intake of the blower so when I am Idle or not in boost I still have crankcase evacuation. It increases the pumps output at WOT and efficiency by adding vaccum. It also makes it emission friendly.
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1264/dsc01251copy6ru.jpg
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/9912/dsc01392copywo1.jpg



I think some modern water/meth controller would be better to control something like this..

[Ninja Performance]

The big problem comes about with HIGH boost. I run 36psi. I have not found a good PCV system that also allows good ventilation at high boost. Period. So I vent all 4 to catch cans. And no, I don't have broken ringlands. And it's stock bore. And my rings are perfect.

-Chris

[green-lantern]

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/8901/vacpumpcopy5ll.jpg

I've seen this contraption before. I think I was searching around on this subject.

What about running the setup like yours Chris but running the catch cans to exhaust to get some vacuum? Is anybody running to exhaust here?

I think Chris is just in denial about his broken ringlands.

[Ninja Performance]

damn ringlands

-Chris

[mb7050]

aftermarket ricer parts is the cause

[Ninja Performance]

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUDGEEEEEEEE /end christmas story

-chris

[MR2]

just increase the size of the pipes before your turbo's ..that's where it's getting vacume from during high boost? I'm assuming it does not need MORE vacume, it just needs more CFM capability, so if you put whatever in...and maybe even more of them?...maybe even a Y pipe connecting each header to the intake..would need a one way valve though (from memory)

[mb7050]

just increase the size of the pipes before your turbo's ..that's where it's getting vacume from during high boost?
yes
turbos really suck as vacuum pumps so if there is any too noticeable vacuum at the pre turbo intake pipe its bad. Air flow in the pipe may help to create some suction(bernoulli's principle) kinda same way as exhaust slashcut works but I doupt it will .. I have tested and there is absolutely no difference in cc pressure/vacuum whether you run the line open to athmosphere or pre turbo intake. But it will pull unmetered/unfiltered air in thru that pipe under intake vacuum conditions if you run it open to athmosphere .

I think im going to try a single exhaust slahscut first as an extra "vacuum" source under boost will see how it works. its very inexpensive to try .
check valve $17.95 + weld in nipple $9.95 lol
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOR-97800/

btw. the pcv system layout
http://www.3sx.com/store/catalog/stock-valvecover-vac-hoses-dohc-diagram-600.gif

[green-lantern]

yes
turbos really suck as vacuum pumps so if there is any vacuum at the pre turbo intake pipe its bad. Air flow in the pipe may help to create some suction kinda same way as exhaust slashcut works but I doupt it will .. I have tested and there is absolutely no difference in cc pressure/vacuum whether you run the line open to athmosphere or pre turbo intake. But it will pull unmetered/filtered air in thru that pipe under intake vacuum conditions if you run it open to athmosphere .

I think im going to try a single exhaust slahscut first as an extra "vacuum" source under boost will see how it works. its very inexpensive to try .
check valve $17.95 + weld in nipple $9.95 lol
Moroso 97800 - Moroso Replacement Check Valves - Overview - SummitRacing.com (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOR-97800/)

I think I might try something like that. I have a few ideas in my head.

[MR2]

I guess :)

my way of looking at it is you don't NEED much suction...you just don't need it to start pressurising...so if you have much larger pipes from the heads ? and maybe crank case?

[green-lantern]

I guess :)

my way of looking at it is you don't NEED much suction...you just don't need it to start pressurising...so if you have much larger pipes from the heads ? and maybe crank case?

The one on the rear head is smaller than the ones that connect the heads together. I assume they designed it to be smaller to be a bit of a restriction to keep some negative pressure when idle or off throttle. I'd like to hook up a sensitive gauge that reads out in tenths of a psi to get a better idea what is going on. I trust what mb7050 says about his results but I wonder if you need something more sensitive.

[MR2]

definitly need some pressure/suction guages...you can even buy the sensors for a logger.

I've just nnnnever gotten around to it :)

[green-lantern]

definitly need some pressure/suction guages...you can even buy the sensors for a logger.

I've just nnnnever gotten around to it :)

Linkie? Where can you get sensors for a logger?

[green-lantern]

Like this?

Vacuum Pressure Sensors with a Millivolt Output Signal (http://www.sensorsone.co.uk/products/244/Vacuum-Pressure-Sensors---Millivolt-Signal.html)

[MR2]

Pressure Transducer, Transmitter, Sensor, Gauge, Logger and Calibrator (http://www.sensorsone.com/)

it's pretty basic stuff, almost all loggers just log the voltage comming in, you calibrate them convert voltage to airflow or pressure or temp that your pulling in, so you just get a very sensative pressure sensor and connect it's two wires into your logger, there are 8 channel loggers on ebay and all sorts of sites, they just have a USB connection to a laptop where you pull the data back off.

you just have to make sure the output of the sensor IS rising voltage not something annoying like altering frequency or something! :p (or get it compatible with your logger atleast)

[MR2]

Like this?

Vacuum Pressure Sensors with a Millivolt Output Signal (http://www.sensorsone.co.uk/products/244/Vacuum-Pressure-Sensors---Millivolt-Signal.html)

yes! I saw some on ebay a while back for like $50...output was just 0 to 5v can't see them now though.

[mb7050]

my current gauge reads negative pressure per 0.1 inches Hg (0.049109778 psi) and is quite sensitive.

hmm. mayby next time I hook it up to my logger

[mb7050]

I had some bad oil seals(camshaft, valvecover) back when I did the testing tho. I´ll post some result when I go for a drive next time .

[MR2]

sounds good, honestly though, why would mitsu restrict the air comming out of the engine cavities? I don't know...just asking the question, when your measuring negative pressure measure your measuring from the normal pipe location? maybe temporarily disconnect the pipe? (block it off if you have to?)

[Ninja Performance]

sounds good, honestly though, why would mitsu restrict the air comming out of the engine cavities? I don't know...just asking the question, when your measuring negative pressure measure your measuring from the normal pipe location? maybe temporarily disconnect the pipe? (block it off if you have to?)

Most (all) higly boosted aftermarket vehicles need to increase the stock evac system. In stock for it is fine. They can't build it and make the PCV efficient AND capable of getting rid of blow by from aftermarket forged pistons (larger skirt clearance) and aftermarket rings, and HIGH boost 2X plus stock boost numbers.

-Chris

[MR2]

right, so next question is how much will it be hurting your engine/performance if ALL the gasses from your engine that get forced out during high boost operation get sucked back in through the turbo's and all that.

this does happen normally, but if you open up the PCV system's you'd in theory get getting a whole lot more right..?!

[RL7]

just increase the size of the pipes before your turbo's ..that's where it's getting vacume from during high boost? I'm assuming it does not need MORE vacume, it just needs more CFM capability, so if you put whatever in...and maybe even more of them?...maybe even a Y pipe connecting each header to the intake..would need a one way valve though (from memory)

The vacuum in the pre-turbo pipes is due to restriction, so you would actually want to reduce their size to increase any vacuum that may be present. This is not a good idea.

Slashcut scares me a little due to the threat of exhaust gasses traveling into the crankcase or a clogged check-valve.

[MR2]

well, depending on HOW that pipe flanges into the intake pipe you could force it to generate more suction due to the air passing by it, and I share your issues about the exhaust idea...but an exhaust pump would most likely resolve the issues