Options for ECS struts and other concerns

[DG]

Here's an example of what I mean.

I was a Penske dealer. The boss's C5 had Penskes on it; we developed a coilover kit that basically eliminated the transverse leaf spring and the stock shocks and replaced them with Hypercoils over Penskes. As well, I got rid of all the rubber bushings in the shock assembly and replaced them with spherical bearings. Depending on how this kit was optioned, it would cost you somewhere between $1500-$3000 PER CORNER - and WAY more people opted for high end over low end. So $12,000 for a full set of shocks.

Now when I did my measure and model of the C5 suspension, the OEM springs were pretty much on the money for rate, and the OEM shock was damn near perfect - and the later version of the OEM shock WAS, for all intents and purposes, exactly what my model suggested. The OEM shock was also super-repeatable and didn't fade; so much so that I painted one bright orange and kept it with the dyno as my calibration shock. Every time I fired up the dyno, first I'd run the calibration shock to make sure it read the same as last time, and if ever during a run a shock started reading something I thought was wonky, I'd pull it and double-check the dyno with the calibration shock to make sure the problem wasn't either the dyno or me.

Our kit needed to come with a default setup. Some customers would provide specs, but most just wanted a bolt-on, ready to go kit. So our off the shelf, default configuration came with with springs rated the same as the OEM springs, and the shocks were very carefully matched to exactly duplicate the OEM shock.

Now think about this. You just dropped $12,000 on a set of shocks, and what I sold you was effectively the exact same thing as what GM provided you off the factory floor. There was a slight weight loss with my kit (the coil springs weighed a little less than the composite transverse leaf) and I eliminated all the rubber at both ends of the shock, which improved small movement sensitivity a fraction, but these are small-order things. For all intents and purposes, my shit was IDENTICAL to the OEM stuff.

(true, what you bought with my stuff was capability - any spring could be swapped on in minutes, and the Penskes had huge adjustment range, where the OEM shocks were non-adjustable. But as shipped, performance-wise, identical)

I was totally up front with customers about this. We needed a default setting, and if the default was the same as OEM, then you had a point of reference you could build off of. There was NO attempt to defraud or otherwise hide this - in fact, I shipped a dyno plot proving that your shocks matched my reference OEM shock)

Customers LOVED these shocks. Rave reviews all around. Not ONCE did I have a single complaint and I shipped about a dozen sets. And here's the kicker - most never touched the knobs or changed the springs. Some racers who fit R compounds went stiffer and matched the shocks to the new springs, but almost everybody who had street cars left them as shipped. One guy I remember in particular told me he had played with the knobs, hadn't found anything he liked, and went back to my default setting.

Which, I remind you, was the same as OEM.

Part of this lesson is that GM really did a fantastic job on the Z06 suspension... but the other part is a lesson in the power of placebo effect, and the cognitive dissidence that comes with having spent a shitload of money on something shiny.

DG

[j2k4]

I will continue to read everything DG has to say about suspension generally, and the 3S platform specifically, but I will take away from this latest set of discussions the conclusion that stock (functioning) ECS/w lowering springs is the zenith of affordable options for our cars.

While I definitely wanted to drop the car a bit to deal with the almost "lifted" appearance of the OEM setup, I feel the springs I installed give me what I desire; going lower for it's own sake has the sole effect (in MY opinion) of pointing up the mismatch between the wheel-well arc and the tire - the lower you go, the worse it gets.

I also subscribe to the idea that genuine race stuff will almost always screw up the real-world experience - as DG has pointed out, the redeeming aspects of these cars all have to do with it's GT flavor; I learned this right away, as my first experience with my car was the 1400-mile trip home, in the worst frigging snow storm I have ever driven in - I identify with that deduction 100%.

So, I am not inclined to try to make the car something it is not, but rather do everything within reason to enhance it's ability as a GT car.

If I went down another path, it would likely be to emulate/duplicate Austin's or Matt's efforts, but while I want to have several more of these cars eventually, I am not inclined to throw cubic dollars at them in unrealistic endeavors.

[J. Fast]

Not everything he says is the "end all / be all". There's general rules of thumb, and testing. He's never done ANY testing on 3/S so most is speculation based on professional experience and supporting other platform R&D.

He paved his own roads which is what my camp has been doing for some time which is why I have to disagree you can't make a 3/S a race car. No one's ever tried but PRM and for some strange reason they do really really well. It's quite possible to build a very very competitive car for less than the price of a Z-06, one that will outperfrom a Z-06 in handling, straight away speed, braking, and aero. This year (3) 3/S cars will be emerging from the Rocky Mountain Region camp. All of them will be competitve race cars. I'd hate to admit what I'll have spent to build mine, but I will say it's less than 20K and it can be replicated in less than 90 days. If I put another 20K in it HOLY SHIT! Motec, Penskes, and a 4 corner AP Racing Brake kit = the end!

Anyway, stock ECS with a good ride height and frequency has good manners.

[j2k4]

Not everything he says is the "end all / be all".

Not saying it is - I wouldn't extend that status to anyone, including Ray, Matt, Chris, Von, or whomever else; I mean to say, however, that whatever any of them has to say has general relevance, and it just happens that I have read lots of DG's stuff.

[J. Fast]

I know and have studied in depth the ride frequency ans full stock suspension. Even collaborated on a full on customizable ECS system. It was developed over 2 years ago. Allows independant or fully customizable suspension control suspensio. Manually overide to select soft, medium, and hard with programmable AI.

http://www.3sgto.org/f17/ecmcu-proje...ystm-1765.html

[J. Fast]

Watch video... 3000gt Stealth Custom ECS Controller SW demo - YouTube

Keep in mind. This is on a vehicle model and year that did not have ECS either. 98 VR-4

[j2k4]

I seem to have stumbled into big-dick competition.

Hey, you're all experts to me, so.

[J. Fast]

Not really a dickswinging contest but more of a reiteration and proof about how much support our platform really lacks. You have to R&D your own suspension parts because nearly everything off the shelf that isn't stock is shit. You either go full custom or you hybrid adapt the stock system.

[j2k4]

Not really a dickswinging contest but more of a reiteration and proof about how much support our platform really lacks. You have to R&D your own suspension parts because nearly everything off the shelf that isn't stock is shit. You either go full custom or you hybrid adapt the stock system.

All of that is perfectly clear - these cars had a rep as rolling grenades right out of the gate, and their following suffered for it.

The dynamic that has played out has pretty much been one of pure redemption, owing to a late-developing appreciation of what the cars were intended to be, as well as the efforts of the enthusiasts like yourself and DG.

I think that, oddly enough, the current level of interest is largely due to the fact they've been regarded for years as tremendously risky, maintenance-wise, which makes them affordable - cheap enough to sink the hook, but expensive enough after-the-fact to empty your piggy-bank.

Good thing they aren't ugly as well.

[DG]

I'd hate to admit what I'll have spent to build mine, but I will say it's less than 20K and it can be replicated in less than 90 days.

MY time is worth money; that labour ain't free.

Take one C5 Z06 in good condition (~$15-20k - not the "collector cars" that are starting to come out of the woodwork)

Fit 335R18 race tires with the appropriate wheels.

Stiffer springs to acommodate the massive increase in lateral grip. A set of Bilsteins matched to springs (could be coilover or not)

A set of Pratt & Miller T1 suspension arms (off the shelf spherical bearing control arms) to eliminate a set of overly squishy rubber bushings.

Open the exhaust.

Install an off-the-shelf cage, race seat, and harness.

Put in proper racing brake pads.

Less than a weekend's work. And that car will be stupid fast, mechanically reliable, and insanely easy to drive. It will have no bad manners, will accelerate, turn, and brake, and it will do it all weekend.

It has factory adjustable ride height and corner weighting. Tons of factory caster and camber adjustment.... basically 90% of the stuff you will spend fixing or working around on a 3S is already done right on the bone stock car.

The sweet spot in the factory camber and bump steer curves are at 1" lower than the factory ride height. It has near perfect weight distribution. It's just an incredible car. If it wasn't for the twin facts that 1. It won't haul as much shit as a 3S and 2. After fixing my boss's car about a billion times after he kept hitting a variety of solid objects I'm so sick of working on them that the very sight of a blue one drives me into a fit of rage, I'd own one myself.

Of course, then I'd probably disappear down the race car rabbit hole again and that is considered "grounds for divorce".... So I'll keep my 3S.

If you have never driven one on a track, try it. You will quickly lose any illusions you have about what kind of race car a 3S makes.

And if you really want a life changing experience, drive a Ralt RT-4 or something similar.

DG