Let's talk coilovers

**JustinIsLegend** · 02-09-2012, 02:39 AM

So...for being able to still take normal turns...not punching it around turns, driving normally on the freeway, mostly on flat roads...etc what do you think the lowest you could lower a car on coil overs without messing everything up would be, VS stock ride height...would 2" be alright? or 2.5" maybe? I just want it at least a little lower, and need new shocks anyway...and like the idea of getting some bilstein shocks, and at that point may as well just make some coil overs for a few hundred extra..

This is my car right now on Tein S Techs...

There are angles where it looks very flush but just being next to it there's like 2-3 fingers gap, and not from the top of the sidewall, from the top of the tread

**JustinIsLegend** · 02-09-2012, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by IPD

completely missed the part where the non-audiophile buys the $20 component cable to replace the non-functioning OEM $10 cable because it provides a signal acceptable to him--regardless of factors that require a degree in electronic engineering to compute.

i'm happy for you that you "test your shit". and when someone is looking for the absolute hard-line facts about what is unequivocally "the best hands down", i'm sure your input will be of indispensable value to them. meanwhile, there are people who don't have OEM shit to use, and to whom going down to wally-world & buying a cheapo analog cable is sufficiently capable enough to outweigh the hassle of assembling piecemeal. perfect solution? no. acceptable performance for non-discriminating people who don't want to dick with the time and possibly expense of piece by piece assembly? most certainly.

it's the same reason why most computers are sold pre-assembled still today. can you get faster/better by doing it yourself? possibly. does that invalidate the market for pre-made computers? last time i checked, dell & HP were still far outselling newegg & tiger-direct.

again, i'm glad for your input. what i don't care for--and isn't serving any purpose other than to thump your own chest--is the elitist attitude that anyone who DOESN'T shop like you shop...is an idiot.

This guy has more experience with suspension than you have with breathing air i'd bet, just let this die, he has a lot of verifiable evidence to support his claim that stuff made for the masses sucks...and I will even go as far as to say if you spend 2x as much on junk that you haven't tested yourself that you are in fact an idiot, at least he says it nicely and shows charts to ease people going down bad paths back onto the right one

DG · 02-09-2012, 07:21 AM

I haven't measured the 3S suspension specifically, but you can typically get 1" to maybe as much as 1.5" lower without compromising handling. That's the range of travel intended to compensation for load variations. Remember, the car was designed to handle well both with a tiny chick driving on a nearly empty tank and with 4 Americans in the car, a full tank, and a full load of luggage.

Once you get much lower than that through, the suspension starts moving into an operating range where the designer thought you would only get to with a fully loaded car plus a violent manouvre and possibly a big bump. The geometry is going to become increasingly compromised, handling will go off, tires will be chewed (especially if they are wide) and on top of that, you'll find there are driveways you can't enter any more.

If you look at modern cars, you'll see that the fender bodywork extends lower than it did on cars from the 90s. A modern M3, for example, has just as much suspension travel as an older one, but they've extended the fender lip down to cover the wheel gap.

The true solution to reducing wheel gap IS NOT lowering the suspension - at least, not below that 1-1.5" range I mentioned earlier. The true solution is some custom body work to do a set of fender flares (or something similar) to cover the gap while leaving the suspension travel unmolested.

If you look at pictures of my race car, you'll notice that is wasn't slammed. I DID measure and model that suspension, I knew exactly how much travel I needed (I had sensors on each wheel measuring it) and the car was set at exactly the right height to give me this travel without compromising the geometry and making the car worse. That wound up being higher than expected, and much higher than the typical slammed out riceboi. Plus it made the car easier to load on the trailer.

If you want the slammed look, you don't want to lower the suspension, you want to change the bodywork.

just let this die

I knew he wouldn't. In fact, he is so predictable that a won a bet. Lunch is on IPD!

DG

**J. Fast** · 02-09-2012, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by IPD

completely missed the part where the non-audiophile buys the $20 component cable to replace the non-functioning OEM $10 cable because it provides a signal acceptable to him--regardless of factors that require a degree in electronic engineering to compute.

i'm happy for you that you "test your shit". and when someone is looking for the absolute hard-line facts about what is unequivocally "the best hands down", i'm sure your input will be of indispensable value to them. meanwhile, there are people who don't have OEM shit to use, and to whom going down to wally-world & buying a cheapo analog cable is sufficiently capable enough to outweigh the hassle of assembling piecemeal. perfect solution? no. acceptable performance for non-discriminating people who don't want to dick with the time and possibly expense of piece by piece assembly? most certainly.

it's the same reason why most computers are sold pre-assembled still today. can you get faster/better by doing it yourself? possibly. does that invalidate the market for pre-made computers? last time i checked, dell & HP were still far outselling newegg & tiger-direct.

again, i'm glad for your input. what i don't care for--and isn't serving any purpose other than to thump your own chest--is the elitist attitude that anyone who DOESN'T shop like you shop...is an idiot.

He's not saying everyone's an "idiot" Thadd. He's plainly stating suspension companies have done a fantastic job with their marketing. The customer base has been ill informed. If you push past all the smoke and mirrors and look at the shock dynes and piles of damaged ball joints, subframe bushings, and suspension end links, not to mention the truck loads of tires that get thrown out after being used for 25% of their MFR specifed mileage, it's plain as day. Add to that, shock manufactures are so smart... they even post tire data that leads consumers to believe they've shitty tires, when in fact the wear is likely caused by a poorly setup or maintained suspension. If it isn't bad enough, the tires guys get you for a set of replacement tires and come right back and blame it on the shock guys.

Being ill informed doesn't make you an idiot. It makes you "ill informed". Additionally, consumers who rock cheap coilovers quite often are function/performance driven. It's okay to be informed and not care or willing to drop the coin for something with more performance, as it's a tradeoff for some. However, don't try to argue their "awesome" or "okay" with consumers looking for performance who consider words like "great" and "exceptional" to mean more than "good enough".

Originally Posted by JustinIsLegend

So...for being able to still take normal turns...not punching it around turns, driving normally on the freeway, mostly on flat roads...etc what do you think the lowest you could lower a car on coil overs without messing everything up would be, VS stock ride height...would 2" be alright? or 2.5" maybe? I just want it at least a little lower, and need new shocks anyway...and like the idea of getting some bilstein shocks, and at that point may as well just make some coil overs for a few hundred extra..

This is my car right now on Tein S Techs...

There are angles where it looks very flush but just being next to it there's like 2-3 fingers gap, and not from the top of the sidewall, from the top of the tread

With the drop you're looking for you're basically sacrificing nearly 75% of the designed wheel travel. To keep the shocks off the bump stops it's going to be a rough ride. You can do whatever you want if you can afford to put tires on every other oil change because they wear excessively. Also plan on nut and bolting your car every couple of weeks and increasing your mainenance intervals on the chassi and suspension links as well. IMHO if you're looking for a drop that robs you of 25% of the effective wheel travel you need to change more that just the shocks if you want to see any performance gains.

**a2j** · 02-09-2012, 10:11 AM

so, Tein coilovers with EDFC or stock ECS with Stein sprints for DD and occasional "light" road course?
PS: I also have '06 civic with tein suspension. I really like ride and handling.

**B-Man** · 02-09-2012, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by J. Fast

Wouldn't you know it on that Bilstein link DG posted Mitsubishi has an off the shelf Evo PSS9 (B12). You can customize the valving and springs

. That's about as easy as it's going to get unless you want to modify a perch or take a strut apart if you want to adapt a Bilstein.

F4-GM5-8642-H1 MITSUBISHI VII/VIII PSS9 $2,948.00

Not exactly the cost effective option.

**J. Fast** · 02-09-2012, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by B-Man

F4-GM5-8642-H1 MITSUBISHI VII/VIII PSS9 $2,948.00

Not exactly the cost effective option.

They are $1800 shipped thru Rally Armor

**Jimvr4** · 02-09-2012, 11:06 AM

I'm on stock ECS with Tein S Tech fronts and Tein H Tech rears, the mix is intended to keep the rear from squatting to low on the Spyder:

Initial application retained the stock upper control arms which allowed less than -1 degree of camber on the rears. I kept having a problem with the passenger rear corner on bumps and hard acceleration where the inside edge of the fender was cutting into the sidewall of my 255x18x40 RE760 tires.

Last month I installed 3SX adjustable upper arms and adjusted camber to -2.5 degrees and I no longer have rubbing in the rear. I might be running a little more negative than required. The way I sorted out the rubbing was to put the car on jackstands, disconnect the rear strut and jack the wheel up until it started touching the fender and I could see the geometry wasn't working.

I don't think I can possibly go any lower without needing even more negative camber to avoid rolling the fender. But I don't need to anyhow - with the current setup and camber I have only 1 finger gap. Here are recent pics showing my stance. Ride and handling are great now and I like the look too.