DG's Bitch Thread

[Gearhead]

I just ordered all three of Carrol Smiths books.

[IPD]

I get what you are saying, but I have to admit I've come away from his writings(primarily his website rather than his forum posts) with a different feeling of what he's trying to say. Primarily that the vast majority of shock systems he's tested are a downgrade from stock... In your above example, it would be like trying to find something that performs worse than a 9B, and calling it an upgrade.

I have no personal knowledge of the validity of those statements, but as he is the only person I know that's ever tested the different systems on a shock dyno, I have no reason to doubt him.

again though, regardless of what dyno results say, if the owner feels that the performance of the new parts is sufficiently satisfactory...why argue with that? sure, if you downgrade from 9b's, you can feel the car be slower. swapping in coilovers isn't like that. the car doesn't "feel worse" to people--and if it did, they'd be liable to change their setup again.

my car, for instance, feels firmer in the corners now; and it doesn't "float" around on the suspension as much as it used to. (not to mention that the reduction in travel has finally stopped shredding my goddamn tires. now you can dyno that shit all you want, comparing it to stock or whatever--but the fact remains that my end-user analysis is that the coilovers are functioning BETTER than the OEM bits that i took off. maybe that's because the OEM bits are past their service live. maybe that's because the AWD conversion compromised the ability of the OEM stuff to work sufficiently well. i don't know. what i do know is that with the coilovers, the car feels and handles better than it did previously.

[GTOX]

So you're saying his shock dyno was a 'mustang' shock dyno?

[IPD]

i'm not making any judgments about the quality/caliber of his tests. all i am saying is that removing the used, OEM stuff and replacing it with the d2 coilovers resulted in much better handling on my car...from my perspective. do better solutions exist? certainly. for about the same amount of money? debatable. but it's not worth it (for me, in this particular case) to invest that level of effort to divine it.

again, from what i can deduce, DG's entire point of creating this thread is because of those (who like me) take issue with how he presents the material--NOT with the content thereof. yes, if you are competing, you certainly should pay attention to the finer details--and DG's advice is most apt. what i have issue with is the notion that "this is the only correct way to do things"--regardless of user demand.

my car is a DD. maybe once per year, it might make it to the dragstrip. i've yet to take it to a road course--and i don't know if i ever will. so yes, from DG's perspective i'm "settling" for performance. and so what? do you yourselves constantly second-guess your personal relationships because you think there "might be someone better out there"? "good enough, and i'm happy with that" is sufficient for me. leave the "high and mighty" pomposity BS out of it.

[vr3.9]

I find this thread very interesting and am all in for more info. I think the above suspension posts may reveal some of what DG is trying to help with. Just because your suspension feels better to you and seems to handle better is still just a subjective perception. Obviously if you like it then on one hand that's all that matters. However, suspension has 2 specific functions, increase traction decrease vibration/movement. Both of these are measurable factual quantities. A well tuned suspension may feel less functional because it's doing its job so well that going through the corner just doesn't feel as fast. Also I believe it's difficult to spend money, time and work on an upgrade to be very objective about it afterwards. I remember after buying a complete upgraded suspension system for my 80 vette it was very difficult for me to objectively back up and admit that it was just way too bouncy and really not good at all.

[AdamVR4]

Where's the data supporting DG's position that Teins suck?

[BigTyla]

Where's the data supporting DG's position that Teins suck?

I would be interested in this as well.

[VR-4ever]

If you have to have the best lap times to be happy, buy the typical spec-miata or C5. Hope that no one on track is faster than you.
If you have to have the fastest ET to be happy, buy a notchback. Hope that no one at the dragstrip is faster than you.
If you simply enjoy being an automotive enthusiast, you're in luck, buy whatever car that interests you / makes you happy.

Sure, there's a difference between great expectations and sobering actual real-life data. Knowledge is good. But knowing why you're in this hobby to begin with is key.

[IPD]

keep in mind that even with comprehensive, convincing, accurate, analytical results...a test is only as good as a snapshot in time. making a judgment call on a brand, unilaterally and without deliberate time-restraints, is as fallacious as thinking that products never improve or deteriorate.

i doubt very much that testing of any given brand of motor oil from 5 years ago will match the same brand of oil if tested today. the same holds true for most every product.

[mb3000]

For racing purposes, the actual racing is the testing. You swap from a quality "stock like" setup DG described in his other thread, to Tien coilover's.

Now your new Tien's might be a total hack job in comparison to other setups, but if you can drop your lap times when using them than they have served their purpose.

Every racer will have a different feeling as to what the "right" suspension feels like. It's up to you to find it.