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Thread: Injector question for tuners

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    Twin Turbo verified Feedback Score 5 (100%) GTOJOE's Avatar
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    Injector question for tuners

    Hi All,

    This is a question for anyone with tuning experience. I'm after a set of injectors for my 1990 GTO TT. I am aiming for an eventual 600HP and don't want to be replacing things half way through the process. So if I get injectors now they need to be usable now and capable of approx 600HP later.
    I asked this question of my tuner and he gave me this response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Hall Turbo Charging
    Joseph,

    There are a lot of things to consider with injectors, that a lot of people overlook. These are spray cone shape, minimum control mSec.

    The injector position, in relationship to the intake valve and the number of valve per cylinder effect the spray cone type you use. Engines with one intake valve and the injector a long way from the valve need a narrow cone. Multi valve engines with injector close to the valve need twin spray or very wide spray injectors. Using the wrong combination will cause all sorts of werid tuning issues. Engines running at 14.7:1 AFR and black smoke coming out the exhaust is one of these problems.

    Minimum control mSec effects how lean you can tune the engine with big injectors. Some injectors are very very bad in this area. You need an injector that has good control down to 1 msec or lower times. The Injector Dynamics (Bosch) and Xpurt injectors are exceptional in this area. Insight Motorsports: Fuel System - Fuel Injectors and Fuel Pumps

    Ray.
    He knows what he is doing so I assume this is correct. However the injectors he recommended are very expensive in Australia so i'm after a cheaper alternative that is as good.

    So what can you recommend???

    Cheers,

    Joe
    Last edited by GTOJOE; 05-20-2011 at 09:03 AM.
    1990 JDM GTO TT with Vi-PEC plug-in V44 EMS, TD04-13T's, 3SX Downpipe, MP Hi-flow cat, ARC SMIC's, Aeromotive Stealth 340LPH pump, Fuelab 515 FPR, Ninja Performance 75amp hotwire kit, oohnoo fuel loop & rail adapters, Nylon braided ethanol fuel line, NGK AFX Wideband, K&N FIPK, Iridium plugs, HKS Twin Power DLI, Turbo XS racing BOV, 3SX poly mounts, Custom 280km/h speedo.

    Waiting install
    Injector Dynamics 725cc Injectors.

    Build Thread

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    Real drivers don't use speed limits verified Feedback Score 2 (100%) Woz's Avatar
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    RC engineering are good and I have also heard good things about Delphi. I haven't had any experience with both so hopefully someone can add a comment who has had experience.

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    DR750's cool kid club! Feedback Score 0 TT Eric's Avatar
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    Those injectors are really good if you wanna go BIG, like with 1600cc you can still have an idle like stock, DSM guys with big set-up like them. The maximum you will need of injectors is 660cc for a 600WHP build (they are good for 660WHP without meth). Any good cie will do the job. I went with Denso because their reputation is high, but every cie of injectors I tried in the past did the job.

    Eric


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    LW fears my posts Not Verified Feedback Score 1 (100%)
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    ^ What he said. 660cc is probably your best bet, but if you need them to be usable now, with very little to tune with, then 550's may be a better choice. You can also turn up the fuel pressure and make them function like 600cc injectors later if you like, or turn it down to make them a bit smaller.

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    Twin Turbo verified Feedback Score 5 (100%) GTOJOE's Avatar
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    I figured 650 would be enough so thank you for clearing that up. As far as spray pattern and mSec I assume that the injector kits for our cars sold by most supporting vendors will have the correct spray etc?

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    Banned Feedback Score 11 (100%) J. Fast's Avatar
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    You are correct.

    These graphs are actual injector flow curves based on static and dynamic analysis tests conducted and published by Performance Fuel Systems.

    Attachment 2717
    The above illustration depicts basic injector behavior for typical injectors.

    Attachment 2716

    The above graph is the super imposed lower limits and upper limits of the above graph. As you can see the msec region below say 1.5 and above 8.5 becomes very erratic and unpredicatable when raw injector flow demand is very low and when very high (pretty much static). Anywhere in the middle and you will generally have a predictable/controllable flow.

    The different types of injectors are described here

    More useful information regarding EFI can be found here

    Any injector you utilize that is specifically sold by a 3/S vendor within the 660cc - 880cc will work well for you and keep your msec within the predictable region of the graphs I embedded. 1150cc will put your raw below the reccommended limit at idle. Vice versa, 600cc or below will put you well above the maximum flow control limit.

    Should you decide to run alternate fuels you will have to re-evaluate your position and make some compromises.

    Hopefully the info I linked to will help to answer your questions.

    Jeremy

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    One day....it will be on 4 wheels. supporter Feedback Score 2 (100%)
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    to my knowledge ID injectors (as you linked in the evo big turbo thread) are the best on the market. keep in mind that for most injectors you can get more flow with more Voltage and more fuel pressure (look further down the ID specs pages)
    Building a House, Car Mods on hold!
    1996 GTO, Owner since 2003.

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    I actually had a quick look around for some ID 725s but they are not very common. Also I have no idea if they make a compatible [correct size etc] injector for our cars. But I believe ours are the same size as the evo injectors and surely they would make them to suit the evos.

    Edit: This look promising though....

    http://www.t1racedevelopment.com/ind...0gt-turbo.html

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    Banned Feedback Score 11 (100%) J. Fast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTOJOE View Post
    I actually had a quick look around for some ID 725s but they are not very common. Also I have no idea if they make a compatible [correct size etc] injector for our cars. But I believe ours are the same size as the evo injectors and surely they would make them to suit the evos.

    Edit: This look promising though....

    Injector Dynamics 725cc injectors for 3000GT Turbo
    Ahh, new product . Injector Dynamics is definitely one of the best fuel injectors in the business!

    Buy those ID 725cc's designed for the 3000gt. That's the injector you want.

    $115 an injector is a great price too!

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    Twin Turbo verified Feedback Score 5 (100%) GTOJOE's Avatar
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    I asked my tuner about some Delphi 680s that "evotuner" is selling over on 3si and he said this

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Hall
    The injector is a dinosaur. It is 2 ohms, which means it is high current peak and hold injector. To drive this injector correctly requires a ECU with peak and hold injector drivers. Your stock ECU and the Vipec plugin do not have these. They may be cheap, but not what I would use.
    He also said he has instock Siemens 60lbs [approx 630cc] injectors at $85.00 each so might go with them. The ID 725s look ideal but $510.00 for 6 vs $690.00..... I have emailed the ID seller [link above] about their price because they appear to have the sale price mixed up. My understandings is that they should be $500.00 not $690.00. If so I will def get those as that's an awesome price.

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