Whats needed to go wideband O2?

**Vince86** · 03-27-2011, 03:06 PM

Ok cool, Thanks again. I plan to drag a couple times a month not sure if that constitutes a lot though. 350 shipped I think for both the tcase brace and motor mounts from maximal. Friend says to save my money but I want to protect my car as much as possible from the hell it allows me to put it through on the track from time to time.

**Chris@Rvengeperformance** · 03-27-2011, 04:49 PM

Do NOT run 12.5:1 on pump gas. Aim for 11.5:1

**Chris@Rvengeperformance** · 03-27-2011, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by steve68

You can with water injection, so long as there's no knock.

Steve

WOW? No kidding?!!! I never knew that! God thank you Steve.

Here I thought I was talking about straight pump gas! I'm gonna tell everyone to run 12.5:1 afr and when they have ringlands like yours I'll tell them, whoops I assumed everyone ran meth injection!

**a2j** · 03-27-2011, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Forest Gump

Do NOT run 12.5:1 on pump gas. Aim for 11.5:1

well, wouldn't that depend on EGT? if you have egt gauge...

**Vince86** · 03-27-2011, 11:23 PM

Ok so on mmcd i should be watching the fuel marker which I assume means fuel ratio but doesnt clarify and isnt showing up on my logs neither is EGT (there is EGRT but it stays at 228 the entire log). and I want to get that at about 11.5 "without" meth. and I should probably get solid motor mounts and after that the brace is option until i have big power? get the Apexi S-ITC first thing(or another way to change timing in same price range) not worry about wideband for now to pay for the ITC instead and work on my tune and if I have the extra cash get the wideband? is that about how you would do it in that order?

Heres a log, hope it works. I had to cut a ton of lines out to make it the right size to uploadMMCD LOG 1.txt

DG · 03-28-2011, 12:00 PM

Do NOT run 12.5:1 on pump gas. Aim for 11.5:1

Well, that's a little broad-handed.

The leaner you can run, the better. Once you get past 13:1 or so, any extra fuel is being wasted as charge coolant. That hurts fuel economy, it hurts emissions, and it even reduces power when compared to a leaner mixture at that same load/RPM level.

If you have solid control of your timing (with a standalone like an AEM or MOTEC) you can run leaner mixtures, safely.

Plus much depends on the detonation resistance of your local pump gas. My "pump gas" is 94 octane - and even then, two fuels with the same octane number may exhibit different detonation resistances.

As boost increases, you may be forced to run fatter mixtures to keep knock unter control. In fact, it's a pretty safe assumption that you will - you can only pull so much timing before the motor goes flat. But there is no benefit to running any fatter than you have to to keep boost under control.

I'm at about 13:1 at cells around 1 PSI, scaling to 12.5:1 in the low to mid boost cells, and 12:1 at my current boost ceiling (13 PSI) North of that I am at 11.5:1, but that's because those are the "holy shit" cells where the engine shouldn't be operating if the boost controller is working.

Each engine is a little different and will behave differently. Ultimately, you start rich and then lean out as much as you can. When it starts knocking, pull a little timing and see what happens. You can iterate around with different timing and fueling values and see what works best with your motor.

DG

**Chris@Rvengeperformance** · 03-28-2011, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by DG

Well, that's a little broad-handed.

The leaner you can run, the better. Once you get past 13:1 or so, any extra fuel is being wasted as charge coolant. That hurts fuel economy, it hurts emissions, and it even reduces power when compared to a leaner mixture at that same load/RPM level.

If you have solid control of your timing (with a standalone like an AEM or MOTEC) you can run leaner mixtures, safely.

Plus much depends on the detonation resistance of your local pump gas. My "pump gas" is 94 octane - and even then, two fuels with the same octane number may exhibit different detonation resistances.

As boost increases, you may be forced to run fatter mixtures to keep knock unter control. In fact, it's a pretty safe assumption that you will - you can only pull so much timing before the motor goes flat. But there is no benefit to running any fatter than you have to to keep boost under control.

I'm at about 13:1 at cells around 1 PSI, scaling to 12.5:1 in the low to mid boost cells, and 12:1 at my current boost ceiling (13 PSI) North of that I am at 11.5:1, but that's because those are the "holy shit" cells where the engine shouldn't be operating if the boost controller is working.

Each engine is a little different and will behave differently. Ultimately, you start rich and then lean out as much as you can. When it starts knocking, pull a little timing and see what happens. You can iterate around with different timing and fueling values and see what works best with your motor.

DG

thanks, but I'm trying to keep things simple for this guy since he is new to tuning. Aiming for 11.5:1 and going from there is a LOT safer than shooting for 12.5 and picking up the pieces. Our a/f targets are fairly similar:

Again, I was trying to keep things simple, there is obviously a lot of variations in setups and engines, but 12.5:1 is not a safe place to start on 91-94 octane IMHO. Some tuners do not even run that lean on race gas. Again, better safe than sorry.

DG · 03-28-2011, 02:50 PM

Dumbing things down makes Baby Jesus cry.

Give him the full information and let him learn.

Dumbed-down info makes dumbed-down tuners. We have more than enough of those.

DG

**Vince86** · 03-28-2011, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by DG

Dumbing things down makes Baby Jesus cry.

Give him the full information and let him learn.

Dumbed-down info makes dumbed-down tuners. We have more than enough of those.

DG

Boo! haha no its cool I know what you mean. By all means I dont plan on being a dumbed down tuner for very long I am trying my best to learn as much as I can as fast as I can so I dont have to be on here constantly trying to work things out. I would love to be able to just go out and start tuning away. Thing is I just dont have the money to buy this and that and see what does and doesnt work so here I am finding out what has worked best for everyone else.

For instance I am not sure if I am wasting my time and money trying to find and spend 200+ on an apexi S-ITC, I know I need to control timing and as far as I know thats the cheapest and fastest way for me to do it without going crazy on the bank (I have a lot of other things to buy still). However cheap or fast it may be I wanted to make sure its the best option for me. Another thing is the wideband stuff, I dont know if its going to be a nessesity for me to have at this point because to me it feels like timing will have to come first, and when I can I will buy a sensor to put downstream and log whatever it is I need to see so i know whatever it is I have to change. When it comes to EGT's I'm trying to figure out if mmcd even logs that (I dont think it does so now what) and the "FUEL" column on it is not the ratio Im afraid and all I have otherwise is the ARM1 which does me no good other than show me if im rich or lean on the fly.

With that said DG I thank you for your input and take in all I can get. Forest you have helped me so many times on multiple subjects and your knowledge is always welcome in my threads. My goal here is to learn how to do this well so that when I see another noob such as myself I can be the one to help him out while you guys are onto bigger and better things so to speak.

**Chris@Rvengeperformance** · 03-28-2011, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Vince86

Boo! haha no its cool I know what you mean. By all means I dont plan on being a dumbed down tuner for very long I am trying my best to learn as much as I can as fast as I can so I dont have to be on here constantly trying to work things out. I would love to be able to just go out and start tuning away. Thing is I just dont have the money to buy this and that and see what does and doesnt work so here I am finding out what has worked best for everyone else.

For instance I am not sure if I am wasting my time and money trying to find and spend 200+ on an apexi S-ITC, I know I need to control timing and as far as I know thats the cheapest and fastest way for me to do it without going crazy on the bank (I have a lot of other things to buy still). However cheap or fast it may be I wanted to make sure its the best option for me. Another thing is the wideband stuff, I dont know if its going to be a nessesity for me to have at this point because to me it feels like timing will have to come first, and when I can I will buy a sensor to put downstream and log whatever it is I need to see so i know whatever it is I have to change. When it comes to EGT's I'm trying to figure out if mmcd even logs that (I dont think it does so now what) and the "FUEL" column on it is not the ratio Im afraid and all I have otherwise is the ARM1 which does me no good other than show me if im rich or lean on the fly.

With that said DG I thank you for your input and take in all I can get. Forest you have helped me so many times on multiple subjects and your knowledge is always welcome in my threads. My goal here is to learn how to do this well so that when I see another noob such as myself I can be the one to help him out while you guys are onto bigger and better things so to speak.

Thanks man.

The stock setup doesn't have afr or egt sensors, all of that will have to be aftermarket.

For the price of an safc and itc you can almost get an emanate ultimate that can do almost anything when setup right.

Im personally not a huge fan of the itc since you can not base timing on boost or load with it.

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