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Thread: Whats needed to go wideband O2?

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    Venom GT... I need a lotto ticket verified Feedback Score 2 (100%) Vince86's Avatar
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    Whats needed to go wideband O2?

    Title says its all basically, 93 rt tt, 550cc, 15g turbs, hotwired walbro safc2 and ARM1. I am useing a palm logger with mmcd and I am finding it impossible to lower or get rid of my knock on high load, not to mention figuring out how to get mmcd to put the graphs on my pc to look at, all i can get is the excel sheets.

    So what will I need to get rid of my narrow band O2 sensors and go with wideband to be able to more efficiently tune and log my car? Assume I know nothing because I cant find enough to educate myself. (finding it hard to look for what I need on 316's site too)

    Edit: for anyone who is looking for the answer to this question you need a Wideband 02 sensor and controller. only 1 is needed downstream or you can put 1 on each bank to adjust front or rear cylinders. Thanks to everyone for helping me with this. read on for lots more info on SAFC2 tuning, and many other misc questions pertaining to fuel, knock, boost, and sensors.
    Last edited by Vince86; 03-28-2011 at 08:38 PM.

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    BAD ASS - I've got one Not Verified Feedback Score 9 (100%) j2k4's Avatar
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    Member Not Verified Feedback Score 7 (100%) mb3000's Avatar
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    For the graphs you might want to try Palm Simulator/Emulator although I don't know why you don't like the spreadsheat version. It's alot more accurate IMO.

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    Venom GT... I need a lotto ticket verified Feedback Score 2 (100%) Vince86's Avatar
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    I like it i just want to be able to glance quickly to see where my knock is starting and visually compare to other graphs. It is real accurate I just like graphs haha. but still I dont know if I can just buy a wideband 02 or if I need supporting mods for them so I can use them properly

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    Member Not Verified Feedback Score 7 (100%) mb3000's Avatar
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    If you just want to glance at your readings while driving than you don't need anything else. I think there is a way to get the gauges like aem and whatnot to be logged with mmcd but I was too lazy to figure it all out & wire it all up.

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    You need the wideband system which is the O2 sensor and the translator/gauge (sometimes the gauge is the translator). It's nice to have a gauge, but if you just want it for logging purposes, you dont need it. Innovate and plx systems use the gauge for display purposes only (isn't necessary) while I think AEM has the translator in the gauge itself. There are a few other companies as well, NGK is supposed to make really accurate units and I would probably go with them if all prices are in the same ballpark. You will need a place to mount it. This can be in place of one of your downstream O2s, or you can weld a new bung on (probably the better option). You can log it with MMCD by inputing the 0-5V wideband signal to the egrt pin (53 for me) on your ecu and setting MMCD up appropriately. MMCD 1.8 displays units assuming the range is 8-22, so keep that in mind. You can (and need to) correct for this in the spreadsheet.

    You can make your own graphs in the spreadsheet, but I mostly agree that the data-sheet view gives you a lot more info.


    You can ditch your narrowbands altogether, but it usually throws a CEL and most chose to keep them. I don't run a narroband because I don't want the ecu messing with my maps. I don't get a CEL for whatever reason.
    Last edited by RL7; 03-26-2011 at 10:23 AM.

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    Venom GT... I need a lotto ticket verified Feedback Score 2 (100%) Vince86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RL7 View Post
    You need the wideband system which is the O2 sensor and the translator/gauge (sometimes the gauge is the translator). It's nice to have a gauge, but if you just want it for logging purposes, you dont need it. Innovate and plx systems use the gauge for display purposes only (isn't necessary) while I think AEM has the translator in the gauge itself. There are a few other companies as well, NGK is supposed to make really accurate units and I would probably go with them if all prices are in the same ballpark. You will need a place to mount it. This can be in place of one of your downstream O2s, or you can weld a new bung on (probably the better option). You can log it with MMCD by inputing the 0-5V wideband signal to the egrt pin (53 for me) on your ecu and setting MMCD up appropriately. MMCD 1.8 displays units assuming the range is 8-22, so keep that in mind. You can (and need to) correct for this in the spreadsheet.

    You can make your own graphs in the spreadsheet, but I mostly agree that the data-sheet view gives you a lot more info.


    You can ditch your narrowbands altogether, but it usually throws a CEL and most chose to keep them. I don't run a narroband because I don't want the ecu messing with my maps. I don't get a CEL for whatever reason.
    Ok so pretty much I dont have to go wideband in order to log properly? my narrowband will give me what I need? Also I only have two sensors and no down stream ones only those coming from the turbos have sensors. The rest is straight stainless 3sx downpipe with closed bungs. Honestly when I was changing turbos and valve stem seals I had the oil pan off and while down there I could find no extra cable to even hook to a downstream sensor.

    The main reason I created this thread was I remember a while back someone said I should get wideband 02 sensors to properly log and tune my car right. thats all I remember.

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    Member Not Verified Feedback Score 7 (100%) mb3000's Avatar
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    Narrowband is useful but only to a certain extent.

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    NB works OK if you know what you're doing. Afterall how do you think people tuned cars before they were available?
    Poorly.

    We tried using narrowbands in the late 90's and all it did was cause problems. We didn't really understand the temperature sensitivity of a narrowband and it lead to all sorts of blind alleys and generally poorly tuned cars.

    Previous to that, you pulled spark plugs to check colour and listened to the exhaust tone. If you were smart, you found a dyno with a wideband or Horiba and used that.

    The wide availability of the wideband O2 sensor revolutionized tuning EFI cars. It is an absolute necessity.

    To use a wideband, you need a wideband O2 sensor and the controller. Sometimes the controller is in an adaptor box, sometimes it is in a gauge, and sometimes it is in a wart on the wiring (newest AEM). Sometimes aftermarket ECUs have built-in controllers that will read a raw wideband signal (Motec)

    Most controller boxes have an option to configure the output as 0-5V or 0-1V. Some provide both.

    If the signal is going to an aftermarket ECU, use 0-5V as it provides more resolution. If the signal is going to the OEM ECU, use 0-1V, as it will work the same as a narrowband for the ECU's fuel trim purposes, which is a good thing that you want.

    I use two widebands, one in each turbo housing, so I can do bank-specific fuel correction with the AEM.

    DG

  13. #10
    Venom GT... I need a lotto ticket verified Feedback Score 2 (100%) Vince86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve68 View Post
    Bigger injectors combined with AFC gives too much timing which in turn causes knock.
    On my own car, several years ago I had 550s with ARC2 and that gave less power than with stock injectors because it was limited by knock, fixed by fitting an ITC.


    Steve
    I guess this would be why i didnt feel much of a difference between the 13gs my car came with and the 15g's I put on it with the injectors and SAFCII... one run i did last year i remember getting over 20 counts... I about freaked.

    And DG my mmcd doesnt have an option for 0-1v only wideband 02 and 0-5v (amongst a few others) not sure if it matters since Im sure I would just select wideband. After what you said I guess im looking to spend about $190 for just one sensor and controller?

    I think im getting a bit over my head honestly because I feel helpless when it comes to figuring this stuff out. Honestly I dont know how I figured out how to hook up and use the SAFCII (probably because there was a detailed install and lots of data to reference.
    I have still been searching how this works:
    -Wiring?
    -What it will do for me in terms of logging how it will help?
    -What to do about my timing, will the WB fix it?
    -Are there diagrams to show me how to hook the system up if and when I buy one?
    -And should I replace both my NB sensors near the turbos? or change one out I have no clue haha. I see you used two but had AEM while I cant control bank specific fuel ammount only rpm based with my controller. (In all seriousness Im still trying to figure out the SAFCII even after I had it installed last year haha)
    Last edited by Vince86; 03-27-2011 at 11:57 AM.

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