6g74 / built atx

[IPD]

chris is going turncoat from the days of being a fan of the panda.

[SOHC]

What did it run in the 1/4?

[whitedragon]

What did it run in the 1/4?

Are you asking me?

At my car's fastest ever, it ran 15.7. It consistantly ran 15.8-16.2 every time down the track, regardless of what other mods I had, or how I was launching.

I went through several different exhaust setups, headers, manifold and downpipe, MSD DIS-4, and a few other things, and the car never ever went faster than 15.7.

It was pretty disappointing for the money I invested. I'd never do an ATX sports car ever again.

[SOHC]

Are you asking me?

At my car's fastest ever, it ran 15.7. It consistantly ran 15.8-16.2 every time down the track, regardless of what other mods I had, or how I was launching.

I went through several different exhaust setups, headers, manifold and downpipe, MSD DIS-4, and a few other things, and the car never ever went faster than 15.7.

It was pretty disappointing for the money I invested. I'd never do an ATX sports car ever again.

Yeah I meant to quote you.

Dang thats slower then I thought it would be do you remember what it trapped? Do you think ATX and MTX are about the same from a roll? I think it might be the first gear that messes up the ATX its too damn long.

If my trans goes you think it wold be cheaper to do a 5 speed swap or rebuild (around $2000).

[IPD]

Are you asking me?

At my car's fastest ever, it ran 15.7. It consistantly ran 15.8-16.2 every time down the track, regardless of what other mods I had, or how I was launching.

I went through several different exhaust setups, headers, manifold and downpipe, MSD DIS-4, and a few other things, and the car never ever went faster than 15.7.

It was pretty disappointing for the money I invested. I'd never do an ATX sports car ever again.

and this is why the ATX gets such a bad rap on this platform. i love it when people take what happens with ONE SPECIFIC CAR and generalize it to every car, ever made. yes, 3s n/a atx is SLOW. that's a specific setup on one specific model of car. you cannot extrapolate the performance of a mclaren SLR from that.

if you are disappointed with the results, you should have saved the extensive trial & error with different setups & gone straight for a tt conversion. it's already a well-documented fact that n/a mods for the 3/s are nigh worthless (save nitrous). there's INFINITELY more bang for the buck with swapping in stock vr4 forced induction parts. if you're pissed about a cost/benefit; blame the fact that you thought the additional .5L would fix everything--rather than going for some 9b's or better. the fault is in how you went about it, NOT with the transmission you used.

Yeah I meant to quote you.

Dang thats slower then I thought it would be. Do you think ATX and MTX are about the same from a roll? I think it might be the first gear that messes up the ATX its too damn long.

If my trans goes you think it wold be cheaper to do a 5 speed swap or rebuild (around $2000).

if you prefer a mtx; then do a swap. if you prefer an atx; rebuild it. if you're indifferent; go with whatever is cheaper.

of course....in this case, the FWD mtx is made of balsa-wood and glass. you really need an awd > fwd converted one. either way though, the atx trans's are cheaper. some by a WIDE margin. if you feel mechanically inclined, an ATX rebuild by yourself isn't that difficult. the internals are identical to those on DSM's, and there is a LOT of knowledge and support for it in that community (unlike the unwarranted negativism that it gets in the 3/s community). you can buy everything you need to make a VERY sturdy atx for less than 2k. less than 1k if you decide to keep the stock converter. all it really needs to "shine" is some upgraded clutch packs, upgraded end clutch, a shift kit, a trans cooler, and a secondary filter (magnetic).

i don't know what all was done to whitedragon's "built ipt transmission". i also don't know anything about how he launched it, what his converter stall is, or anything. regardless, hooked to an n/a 6g7x...it's going to be relatively slow; and yes, the mtx will be faster. but that gap between them (.5-1.0 seconds in stock form) all but disappears when you start talking about forced induction and a properly modded atx. there is a reason dsm atx's are running in the 8's regularly.

i'm not going to argue for or against your personal decision to keep or replace your atx. i do think you need to have all the FACTS before you do it--not biased, jaded anecdotes--which is what my blog entry is about. i'll also point out that until critical mass was reached for the 4th gear output shaft, the ATX in T4 was regularly trumping the MTX in the 1/4. take that for what it's worth. yes, it has an achilles heel. if you plan to have your car make > 800whp, then perhaps that's a legitimate gripe. but let's be honest. we can probably count the number of 3/s owners with >800whp without even taking our socks off.

p.s.
my fwd-tt (as it WAS but is no longer) with 9b's and 8psi ran dead even with a modded GTI turbo mtx in the 1/4. no wideband, no datalogger; no tt-ecu. and that was with an 8:1 engine. i could probably have busted mid 13's on a 10:1 and 13g's with some good engine monitoring.

my new setup will be 3.5L twin 16g setup running ~18psi. i expect low 11's-high 10's. and that's WITH the atx (awd).

[Ninja Performance]

While the ATX isn't bad for low hp setups, I would prefer the MTX.

-Chris

[95gto]

The mtx has lower drivetrain loss, and if you have two cars with the same power and comparable gearing but unequal losses, the car with lower losses will be faster. The only way to make the atx faster would be change the gearing which is a stupid move on a car that isn't drag strip dedicated. And a drag strip dedicated NA atx car is just stupid imo, its like picking a bmx bike for the Tour de France.

If you have the reasources to do an mtx 3.5L setup you will enjoy it more than an atx setup. Of the multiple 3.5L NA cars I have worked on and ridden in the mtx cars are faster. Faster than a 3.5L with a stock NA atx and faster than a 3.5L with a built 'race' transmission from these guys:
MITSUBISHI | EAGLE | DSM Performance Automatic Transmissions

And Inperctdarkness, if its lame to use a single car as an example why did you turn around and do it yourself????????

[jessecain1]

i havent ridden in any atx 3.5, but i can say if you do swap over to mtx you will not be disspointed coupled with the 3.5.

[whitedragon]

Yeah I meant to quote you.

Dang thats slower then I thought it would be do you remember what it trapped? Do you think ATX and MTX are about the same from a roll? I think it might be the first gear that messes up the ATX its too damn long.

If my trans goes you think it wold be cheaper to do a 5 speed swap or rebuild (around $2000).

If I remember, my traps were always between 89-93mph, regardless.

--not biased, jaded anecdotes--

Wow, who's jaded? And FYI, I had my car since '05, and xwire swapped the 3.5L in '06. We never set out to make a track monster, but through trial and error of the 3.5, and regular maintenance etc, I just had alot of different setups on my car. I never claimed to be creating a killer, it just happened that we went through alot of different things through the years.

For example, the 3.5L broke my trans, so xwire suggested I have IPT do the full rebuild on it with all the bells and whistles, so we did that. The 3.5 rubbed on the stock manifolds and downpipe, so xwire suggested headers that would have more clearance. After we did that and it sounded terrible and destroyed my lower end torque, he fabbed me up a different exhaust. He also suggested an MSD DIS-4 (which was pretty cool when it worked) and so on and so forth.

And this was all over the course of several years, and this was my DD, that I also took to the track at every opportunity because it was fun, and reliable.

I loved that car, so I think you have me mistaken with someone else when you imply that I'm "jaded" and that I was ignoring "well-documented" facts (of which, there weren't any about a 3.5 back then).

It just so happens that through the life of the car, I got to try alot of different things firsthand, and the simple fact is, the ATX just doesn't compare to the MTX, in speed and driveability.

And if you're going to talk Forced Induction, then why even bother TT'ing an NA, just buy a VR-4. That's what I did, and while I loved my SL, if I could go back in time and change it, I should have bought my RT/TT first. With less than half the money invested, it puts down twice the power, and handles better. So if you want to save your money, that's the real way to go.

The mtx has lower drivetrain loss, and if you have two cars with the same power and comparable gearing but unequal losses, the car with lower losses will be faster. The only way to make the atx faster would be change the gearing which is a stupid move on a car that isn't drag strip dedicated. And a drag strip dedicated NA atx car is just stupid imo, its like picking a bmx bike for the Tour de France.

If you have the reasources to do an mtx 3.5L setup you will enjoy it more than an atx setup. Of the multiple 3.5L NA cars I have worked on and ridden in the mtx cars are faster. Faster than a 3.5L with a stock NA atx and faster than a 3.5L with a built 'race' transmission from these guys:
MITSUBISHI | EAGLE | DSM Performance Automatic Transmissions

Agree 100% with 95gto, and also I'd like to point out that was the tranny rebuild I got from IPT. It cost almost $4000 when all was said and done to be fully built, heat treated, and with the Torque Converter.

[IPD]

i will agree with you about "buying a vr4 in the first place". if i had to do it over again; i'd do just that. and i'd immediately swap in an atx. much less headache that way, and i don't have a colossal fight with insurance coverage.

i don't feel that having IPT building you a trans is the best way to do things--at least not the most economical. that said, even if you're paying $4,000 for a complete trans, bear in mind the cost of a used 6-speed on ebay. now add in the cost of "building" that. you can chew through a wad of cash real quick with getrags; and since they're specific to JUST the 3/s--good luck with finding a wide assortment of suppliers. i can get aftermarket torque converters and clutch packs from a dozen or more suppliers for my trans.

i totally get what chris is saying when he says he prefers mtx. i get that. it's a matter of choice. he has personal preferences; just like everyone else. just because i'm not a huge fan of corvettes doesn't mean that they're shitty cars. just because i'm not a huge fan of rowing through gears doesn't mean that it doesn't have appeal for other people. what i am saying is that the "bashing" is uncalled for. there's pros and cons to any preferential choice a person makes. if you make a choice, great--i'm happy for you. and while we're at it, let's keep the BS to a minimum.

p.s.

95gto, i'm not basing my opinion off any one car. practically any AMG mercedes with a slushbox is a potent force to be reckoned with (the sl350 amg 7-speed was a tenth faster in the 1/4 than the 05 corvette mtx). many DSM's stick with them because they're known to handle higher HP levels better than the MTX--in that specific car. i drove an ls3 atx corvette today--and it wasn't a slouch by any stretch of imagination. of course, it also had the advantage of paddle shifters...but then again, i don't have anything against paddle-shifters; just rowing gears.

experience has taught me that most people who try "racing" an atx for the first time haven't a clue what power-braking is. it was an easy thing to demonstrate back when my car was FWD-tt. simply mashing on the gas would gradually start the car moving. power braking would spin the tires. pretty easy determination about what's getting more power to the wheels from a dead stop.

so again, don't let just the n/a atx experience of a 3/s make the determination for you that "atx's suck. period". the #1 reason why they have such a bad rap on this platform is because they were never offered with forced-induction stock--unlike the DSM's. a tt 3/s atx is NOTHING like an n/a 3/s atx. i know. i've driven my car extensively before and after. even 9b's 8:1 @ 8psi make it feel like the car is downshifting; even though it hasn't. running it in "PWR" mode (so that it downshifts faster) is a spectacular difference. putting your foot into it will instantaneously slam into 2nd gear and you take off.