Megan Racing Coilovers keep changing height as I drive.

[GTO Assassin]

Great post DG. More worthy of posting in it's own thread. Thanks alot for the info.

Scooter

[IPD]

interesting.

unfortunately, it doesn't address that nearly every single brand available has different types of offerings. tossing out the brand because you "think the economy-level part is garbage" isn't really informative. d2 "rs" and "pro spec" coilovers are vastly different products. granted, i have the rs's on my car (and i love them); but calling any brand "junk" because you looked at one and only one part from the lineup is....misleading at best.

p.s.

you also didn't mention specifically WHICH brands you tried. i would not be surprised to find chinese sets were garbage. i'd be very surprised to learn that the stuff that japanese PROFESSIONAL RACING TEAMS USE is "garbage" (tein, d2, BC, etc).

p.p.s.

there's also no way of knowing if these coilovers you tested were, in fact, the genuine articles; not some chinabay knockoffs which were cloned & plastered with stickers.

[stealthee]

I've gotta side with DG on this one. I would pick a Bilstein w/ground control over a Megan all day long. It's definitely not my ideal setup but for the sake of comparison if they were both corner balanced my decision would be quite simple, Bilstein. Why are you opposed to them Stealthee?

Short answer is Ground Controls are junk and they will wear struts out faster. The ride is also WAY harsher than the ride of the Megan's.

I'll take real world 3.5 years and 40k+ miles of daily driver testing over some "shock dyno test" any day.

[DG]

Did I test every single model of every single shock? No.

I did, however, test multiple models from multiple brands, including JIC, KW, Megan, TEIN, GAB, and Tokiko. Not just their low-end stuff; my customers were racers and some had bought higher-end models.

All of these were JUNK.

Does that mean that every single shock made by these (and similar manufacturers) must be junk? No, it does not. But the trend was very clear. Not a single one of these shocks passed my most basic tests.

Just because I haven't seen every single pig on the planet doesn't mean there isn't one out there that can fly. Perhaps you were lucky, and bought the world's only flying pig. Based on my representative sample, I expect no flying pigs - but it is possible. But the burden of proof now falls on those who claim their pig can fly - and that means dynoing your shocks and providing the plots.

Until then, if you want something that flies, you're better off buying a bird than a pig.

Short answer is Ground Controls are junk and they will wear struts out faster. The ride is also WAY harsher than the ride of the Megan's.

I'm not a huge fan of many things Ground Control has done over the years - their DSM upper shock mounts, for example, are garbage. But there is nothing wrong with their coilover sleeves - in fact, theirs are a little nicer than the straight-up Bilstein or Koni sleeves.

They categorically do not wear out struts faster.

Now harshness is typically either a spring or valving mismatch. It is certainly possible that Ground Control is specifying overly stiff springs and using them on shocks that aren't valved accordingly. But that is a self-inflicted wound; nobody with any experience lets Ground Control specify spring rates for them. You buy their sleeves and get springs from Hypercoil.

I'll take real world 3.5 years and 40k+ miles of daily driver testing over some "shock dyno test" any day.

Sadly, this is a typical reaction from somebody who sunk money into garbage. People have a tendency to internalize their engineering choices like it was somehow related to their self-worth.

Here's the thing - most people are really, really bad at differentiating what makes a "good" and "bad" set of shocks and springs. It takes a fair amount of time to learn what "good" and "bad" feels like (except in the most egregious cases of bad) and if you never experience "good", "bad" feels OK, for the most part.

This is WHY the aftermarket suspension companies have been able to get away with selling junk for so long - nobody can readily tell the difference. It feels stiffer, so it must be better, right?

Hell, I won a major pro championship on shocks that were completely wonky. Car was really fast - except every once and a while it would throw me into the weeds without warning. You never knew if it was going to be spin, or win. Turned out to be way too much rear spring, too little front spring, and shocks that were completely out to lunch (I had to learn this stuff too)

I had a guy with $5000 in Penskes (built by a fly-by-night Penske "tuner") come to me because his car felt "a little odd". When pressed, he thought maybe something was different left to right - and he was slower than he expected. This wasn't an idiot; this was a competitive pro-level driver who was consistently top-5. We dynoed his shocks, and discovered that the left front had 1000lbs of rebound, the right front had 1000lbs of compression - the "super tuner" assembled the right front backwards. That's not a little bit wonky, that's a whole lot wonky. That's an enormous fuck up. And this top level driver could just barely feel that something wasn't quite right.

So why bother getting it right at all?

Because when they ARE right - and only the dyno can tell you when they are - it's like a giant spotlight comes on. The car is smoother, faster, and more comfortable. It is way more consistent, and much, much easier to drive - because the bad habits you had learned to drive around and compensate for without even knowing you were doing it go away.

So to be perfectly blunt, your 3.5 years and 40k+ miles mean jack, because you don't know what good shocks really feel like.

So then, you have a choice: you can get all mad and insulted and make a sad face and go pout, or you can chalk it up to a learning experience and get some real shocks and experience the difference.

No skin off my nose; I won my championships, sold my car, and moved on. I make no money off the truth. But I do hate seeing people waste good money on junk out of ignorance.

DG

[mb7050]

I went thru 3 sets of teins (HA , Super street and Mono Flex) until I realized they dont have good shocks for these cars altho they make excellent rally coilovers today !

[mb7050]

Öhlins
Aragosta
Buddy Club R-Spec
BILSTEIN

[J. Fast]

Don't get all butt hurt Stealthee. He's pretty much spot on. Until you ride in a car with a superior balanced suspension you'd never know the difference.

I posted a basic FYI on the other site awhile back and this seems like a good time to bring this here:

To catch up on the basics. There's basically three different types of suspension setups here. The first type is a standard twin-tube design such as a set of Megan’s, KYB, KW's, Tein's and ETC. The second is a mono-tube design such as a JIC-A2, entry Bilstein, Variant, and etc. The third is an inverted mono-tube such as a Penske, Ohlin, Moton, Bilstein, etc.

KW's, Megan's, KYB's, and etc are examples of conventional twin-tube shock absorbers. The inner piston chambers on twin-tube shocks are surrounded by an outer tube that acts as the fluid reservoir. As the shock pumps up and down, the action of the piston forces the hydraulic oil inside to flow back and forth through valving in the bottom of the shock into the outer fluid reservoir. When exposed to prolonged compression and rebound twin-tube shocks begin to collect heat and cause the nitrogen gas and oil in the shock to cavitate and mix which lead to boiling. Boiling leads to shock fade which if you understand the definition of brake fade you can imagine it's not good!

Essentially a vehicle with shock fade will slowly begin to lose its consistency and absolute predictability in handling. Shocks are responsible for quieting and controlling chassi and suspension dynamics and allow us to predict things like effective front and rear roll angles, tire contact, roll center, center of gravity, corner braking points, body roll, squat, and etc. Well, you want something predictable, which is where mono-tube shocks come into play.

Unlike twin-tube dampers, the gas chamber in a mono-tube damper is separated from the oil by a physical barrier, the floating piston. This separation means that the high-pressure nitrogen gas does not mix with the oil, and thus does not cause inconsistent damping force. This separation also means mono-tubes can be run at any angle, even upside down, which is advantageous because it reduces un-sprung weight by shifting the lighter end with the shaft to the moving suspension and keeping the heavier damper body attached to the chassis. Inverted-shaft Macpherson struts are often used in rally racing for this reason, and because they are harder to bend.

Generally speaking most mono-tube dampers have all the compression and rebound valving in the piston and are much bigger than those of twin-tube dampers. A larger piston displaces more oil, creating more flow through the valves than the smaller twin-tube piston; this makes mono-tubes much more sensitive to small suspension movements. This high flow in turn makes for more repeatable and accurate control of the damping force.

The deflected-disc valve systems found in mono-tube dampers are more precise, repeatable, and tunable than the system of check valves, springs, and orifices found in twin-tube dampers (although a few twin-tube designs do have deflected-disc valves in the piston).

Mono-tubes also run much cooler than twin-tube designs because there is no outer tube and extra layer of insulating gas to block internally generated heat. For these reasons, mono-tubes are the choice for all high-end street and racing dampers.

Additionally, inverted mono-tube allows less camber change under side loading. When a car with Macpherson strut suspension is heavily laterally loaded, the strut will bow due to the pressure and undergo positive camber change. An inverted mono-tube design will reduce this positive camber change (through increased rigidity) and allow you to run less negative camber up front which in turn helps with tire contact and faster cornering speed.

You will find standard manufacturers inverted mono-tube shock in the newer models of Mitsubishi Evo and WRX and will discover their suspensions are more dynamic, rigid, and predictable which is why if you ever tried to follow one with a twin-tube suspension you would find yourself inhaling huge exhaust plumes when your shocks begin to fade and you lose a large portion of predictable vehicle handling.

Additional substantiated testing afforded this general consensus from circle track experts, modified racing experts, and Formula 1 racing experts.

Quote:
ADVANTAGES
In addition to reducing fluid foaming for better ride control (which is the gas-charged mono-tube shocks main advantage), the design has additional advantages over a conventional twin-tube shock:

The mono-tube shock provides better heat dissipation and cooling than a twin-tube shock. There is no outer tube or fluid reservoir to inhibit heat flow, so the mono-tube shock runs cooler and delivers more consistent ride control.
A mono-tube shock is lighter than a twin-tube shock that has the same external diameter. This reduces unsprung weight and allows the wheels and tires to follow the road more closely.

A mono-tube shock can be mounted in any position (right side up, upside down or even sideways) and still work. A twin-tube shock uses gravity to drain the fluid down through the valving in the bottom, and to maintain the gas charge in the outer reservoir. But a mono-tube has a floating piston and no reservoir, so the orientation of the shock does not matter. On racing applications, such as Formula One or Indy Cars, the shocks can be mounted sideways inside the body to reduce drag for better aerodynamics.

A mono-tube shock has a larger diameter piston than a twin-tube shock that has the same external dimensions, which gives the shock greater sensitivity for small piston motions.

Mono-tube shocks are used for many coil-over applications because of their compact design. Many of these applications also feature adjustable valving so the ride characteristics can be fine tuned or changed depending on how the vehicle is being driven.

If you have some time to burn there's a great read providing great suspension technology and progression. The Design Of A Racing Shock - Chassis - Circle Track Magazine ....there's also some great additional reads in the hyperlinks on the right hand side (use Google).

I'd have to second the biggest point touched on by DG. The suspension must be setup correctly and not hacked together.

Great thread. One question I have for you DG. How dramatic of a suspension adjustment is required for track vs. street tire changes? Say you go from a street tire to a track tire, can you usually get away with going back and forth between the two or are you leaving something on the table? Back to your show .

[mb7050]

i find it hard to find compressed and uncompressed specs for bilsteins

[Mike-92RT]

I like the stock ECS shocks lol... i just like to show off to girls, when i show them i can change from sport mode to touring lol... most are amazed by it haha.

Although, most are amazed by the car itself... i WOULD like to lower my car an inch or 2.... whats a good lowering spring to use?

[mb7050]

2. Street car with no ECS? Off the shelf Bilstein with a coilover sleeve and Hypercoils slightly stiffer than stock.


DG

help me out here a lil i want working suspension for the spyder it weights 1850kg and 50% / 50% front / rear weight distribution so any shock / spring made for vr4 will look stupid because front will sit abit too high and rear too low (even stock suspension have this problem) .

I would love to have ECS but 1996 spyder vr4 does not have it

any links where i could start looking for shocks / springs would be nice and if you have some suggestions