tearing apart engine.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Wow I've heard of old timers shimming stuff like that during model t times, but never seen it before. That's about the most shady thing you can do.
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[shmoo]

Isiah, download the factory manual off 3SX's website. You WILL need it.

i've got the service manual. volumes one and two, not sure if there are more. it's the first picture in my last post. is that the manual you're speaking of?

Wow I've heard of old timers shimming stuff like that during model t times, but never seen it before. That's about the most shady thing you can do.
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yeah, pretty awesome, i chalked it up to shotty mechanics.

and, i had someone on the other board tell me that was a non turbo block. anyway i can tell? i'll look though my manual tomorrow at the office.

thanks

_isiah

[Memphetic]

Nothing wrong with turned cranks as far as I (and Ray Pampena) am concerned. Every 6G72 3.5 stroker he has built was with a 3.5 Diamante crankshaft turned to stock journal 6G72 pin diameter. People will complain about the loss of nitriding - which is just a SURFACE hardener and has nothing to do with the ability of the crank to withstand stress. You can't honestly believe that 49.75mm vs 50mm will make a difference in strength - it's only a .5% difference. The reason I bring this up is because a crankshaft for these things costs a *lot* of money.

As long as your machinist can maintain out-of-round less than 0.003 mm, and taper of less than .005 mm and you end up with an oil clearance of 0.020 - 0.050 mm. Also, ensure that the balls at the end of the journals (you will see them on the crankshaft) that are used to plug the line bored oil holes are drilled out and replaced with a tapped hex cap nut. These act like sludge traps. Either you can do it yourself by filing them flat, using a center punch, then drilling them out, or by having your machinist do it for you. If you intend to put the engine back together yourself, I have some tips for that as well, and can more or less walk you through the process. Let me know.

EDIT: That is, indeed, a N/A block. You can tell by the lack of braces on the main girdle. In addition, if you look into the block you won't find any oil squirters.

EDIT 2: Those slivers you pulled out are the thrust washers. They maintain an oil clearance between the crankshaft and the block laterally and prevent it from moving in and out. They're annoying to install, at best, and the first time I did it many years ago, I ended up crushing one. But yes, they just sit in there (that's what makes them hard to install - they're going to want to fall)

[sergechronos]

TT girdle. Note the smaller braces alongside and how the girdle has a small bit cut out for access to the bolt.

As far as turning the crank Memphetic, if you have a good machine shop (like Ray does) its not a big deal. If you don't have one or don't know yet if yours is good, that's a horse of a different color IMO. I personally have spent several months looking for a machine shop to do the machining for my forged motor that is going to do it the way that I want it (ie. Clearances shouldn't be at .035 and piston to wall clearance of five thou is madness.)

Shmoo ask local 3S owners to see if there's a local shop that they use or recommend.

[shmoo]

Nothing wrong with turned cranks as far as I (and Ray Pampena) am concerned. Every 6G72 3.5 stroker he has built was with a 3.5 Diamante crankshaft turned to stock journal 6G72 pin diameter. People will complain about the loss of nitriding - which is just a SURFACE hardener and has nothing to do with the ability of the crank to withstand stress. You can't honestly believe that 49.75mm vs 50mm will make a difference in strength - it's only a .5% difference. The reason I bring this up is because a crankshaft for these things costs a *lot* of money.

As long as your machinist can maintain out-of-round less than 0.003 mm, and taper of less than .005 mm and you end up with an oil clearance of 0.020 - 0.050 mm. Also, ensure that the balls at the end of the journals (you will see them on the crankshaft) that are used to plug the line bored oil holes are drilled out and replaced with a tapped hex cap nut. These act like sludge traps. Either you can do it yourself by filing them flat, using a center punch, then drilling them out, or by having your machinist do it for you. If you intend to put the engine back together yourself, I have some tips for that as well, and can more or less walk you through the process. Let me know.

EDIT: That is, indeed, a N/A block. You can tell by the lack of braces on the main girdle. In addition, if you look into the block you won't find any oil squirters.

EDIT 2: Those slivers you pulled out are the thrust washers. They maintain an oil clearance between the crankshaft and the block laterally and prevent it from moving in and out. They're annoying to install, at best, and the first time I did it many years ago, I ended up crushing one. But yes, they just sit in there (that's what makes them hard to install - they're going to want to fall)

damn, i'm surprised that no one pointed that out earlier. maybe i didn't point out that i thought it was a tt block. so, what do you think? this engine is supposed to be for my car, and someone on here posted that it'd probably be around two grand to get that engine back up and running perfectly. since i just want a stock tt engine, i'd be better off just finding a stock engine somewhere else.

and, it's not like i'm gonna throw this engine away, so i'll probably try to rebuild it at some point, but for now, it's just a pile of extra parts.

to be clear: i should not attempt to put these na internals in my car? or i should and just change out the pistons/rods and cradle

TT girdle. Note the smaller braces alongside and how the girdle has a small bit cut out for access to the bolt.

As far as turning the crank Memphetic, if you have a good machine shop (like Ray does) its not a big deal. If you don't have one or don't know yet if yours is good, that's a horse of a different color IMO. I personally have spent several months looking for a machine shop to do the machining for my forged motor that is going to do it the way that I want it (ie. Clearances shouldn't be at .035 and piston to wall clearance of five thou is madness.)

Shmoo ask local 3S owners to see if there's a local shop that they use or recommend.

there aren't really any local owners, but texas is Huge, so i'm sure there's something within an eight hour drive.

thanks for the helps y'all. i have a lot to understand..

_isiah

[sergechronos]

NA internals for a TT build is fine...For stock turbos and stock boost levels. They don't take kindly to much more than that. It's not as simple as changing out the pistons, rods and cradle though. To use a TT cradle, you'd need a TT block.

You may want to check your heads and make sure that you've actually got turbo heads and cams, could be that the original engine was blown and the original owner just swapped an NA long block in there.

I'm selling that block pictured which has already been tanked, honed and new piston rings for 450 shipped if you end up just needing the block and internals. With a forged crank in there, the two bolt engine and internals are good for most bolt on turbos. I've got a forged crank at a local shop that has a reputation for good (if slow) work that needs turning. Could basically rebuild the shortblock for 300 plus cost of new bearings, machine work to turn the crank and cost of shipping. Probably end up somewhere in the $700-800ish range.

[sketch]

these are also NA (10:1 compression ratio) pistons.



compare to turbo (8:1 compression ratio) pistons here:

[shmoo]

NA internals for a TT build is fine...For stock turbos and stock boost levels. They don't take kindly to much more than that. It's not as simple as changing out the pistons, rods and cradle though. To use a TT cradle, you'd need a TT block.

You may want to check your heads and make sure that you've actually got turbo heads and cams, could be that the original engine was blown and the original owner just swapped an NA long block in there.

I'm selling that block pictured which has already been tanked, honed and new piston rings for 450 shipped if you end up just needing the block and internals. With a forged crank in there, the two bolt engine and internals are good for most bolt on turbos. I've got a forged crank at a local shop that has a reputation for good (if slow) work that needs turning. Could basically rebuild the shortblock for 300 plus cost of new bearings, machine work to turn the crank and cost of shipping. Probably end up somewhere in the $700-800ish range.

well, i've already got 13t turbos. , so, you're telling me that for 800ish, i can have a two bolt that's all together from you? what was the 450 shipped for? i'll pm you.

these are also NA (10:1 compression ratio) pistons.



compare to turbo (8:1 compression ratio) pistons here:

uhhhhhhh, something about newts, thanks.

_isiah

[shmoo]

alrighty,

so..

how can i tell the difference between the turbo heads and the non turbo heads. my service manual said that one difference is something about when the exhaust valve opens, or something..

and, they came with the same cam angle sensor. like the motor i just tore apart has the same sensor as the engine that is in my car, well they look the same.

what the hell should i do? i just want a stock build.

i'm not trying to cut corners, i just want to know the most cost efficient way to build this thing. to handle the 13t's that i already have.

i'm getting the vibe from serge that i shouldn't just throw tt pistons in there.

it seems like i should just be looking for an engine that's ready to drop in, well minus the accessories.

if***..

i get just a tt block that's complete. as in pistons and the surround, will i be able to use the heads that i pulled off of this block?

my number is 575 441 5701 shoot me a text or call whenever, i'll be sitting in the storage unit for a while, well until monday night.

_isiah

[sergechronos]

alrighty,

so..

how can i tell the difference between the turbo heads and the non turbo heads. my service manual said that one difference is something about when the exhaust valve opens, or something..

and, they came with the same cam angle sensor. like the motor i just tore apart has the same sensor as the engine that is in my car, well they look the same.

what the hell should i do? i just want a stock build.

i'm not trying to cut corners, i just want to know the most cost efficient way to build this thing. to handle the 13t's that i already have.

i'm getting the vibe from serge that i shouldn't just throw tt pistons in there.

it seems like i should just be looking for an engine that's ready to drop in, well minus the accessories.

if***..

i get just a tt block that's complete. as in pistons and the surround, will i be able to use the heads that i pulled off of this block?

my number is 575 441 5701 shoot me a text or call whenever, i'll be sitting in the storage unit for a while, well until monday night.

_isiah

For a stock build (er..rebuild) finding a complete OEM long block that has had 60k/120kservice recently done is probably your best bet for doing it reasonably. Having one built is expensive, and not something I'd do again for my personal car outside of building forged. If you can find a long block even if it hasn't had the 60k or 120k done for say a thousand bucks with less than 120k, figure bout 200-300 in shipping costs and spend about a 700-800ish to do the 60k, oil pump and bearings, you should be pretty well set. If possible, replacing the VSS while you're at it (which is doable with just a $50 tool and a compressor) and you've basically done everything that should be done for a long while.

While you COULD just put TT pistons there, I'd be leery of not having those extra girdle stays to help keep the girdle in place. If you got a complete TT short block (pistons, rods, crank) you can use your heads off of that block either way, NA heads aren't quite as efficient but with forced induction that doesn't make as much difference as you think unless you're chasing the bleeding edge.