**** Major Issue with the 3sx Adjustable Cam Gears - Zero is not Zero****

**wraith** · 12-30-2012, 03:42 PM

Waiting to hear about Chris's findings on the Fidanza ones since I am running those zero'd out but I always suspected something was a little off because the car was not as responsive after my build and I could never figure out what it was

**Ninja Performance** · 12-30-2012, 08:49 PM

I wanted to update with more specific information. And to make sure someone doesn't just measure one and think all 4 are the same. Or two and all 4 are the same.

My previous post that all 4 are off not just the rear exhaust timing blade cam gear was only partially correct. I stated all were +2.5 degrees advanced. This was wrong. I had poor lighting and not too much time due to spine pain that day to get real precise info and I am sorry for that.

I found that they were all off so I wanted to make sure others didn't think all they had to check was their rear exhaust cam and they would be good. So I posted ALL 4 ARE OFF by +2.5 advance.

Today I had more time, better lighting etc and a bit less pain so I set it all up to measure exactly how many degrees off from 0 the 3sx adj cam gear set is (the set I have from the engine Greg picked up for me months ago).

Results:
Cam gear #1 +1.5 degrees advance
Cam gear #2 +2 degrees advance
Cam gear #3 +2.5 degrees advance
Rear Exhaust cam (timing blade cam gear) +2.5 degrees advance

So check every one to find true 0 degrees, make that your new 0 degrees and set your advance/retard from there.

Let me know if you have any questions.

-Chris

**Ninja Performance** · 12-30-2012, 08:51 PM

It may be a few days before I can get to my Fidanza's. Did a bit too much today and my spine is killing me and probably will for a few days (cancer can kiss my ass)

But when I do I will post up my findings!

-Chris

**DrGonzo** · 12-30-2012, 09:13 PM

Thanks for checking Chris. I just assumed that they would all be the same on mine also. I only checked one of the gears I had. I'll have to check the rest when I get time to see what the results were.

This does show the variance in manufacturing the gears and that the quality control is just not there. This is the main reason I posted this wanting others to check theirs also. This may show a pattern of how bad the variance really is and that the only way to actually use these is by using a degree wheel.

**Ninja Performance** · 01-12-2013, 02:05 PM

I finally had some time to pull my Fidanza cam gears on my car to check them out. I set them at +1 intake -3 exhaust and locked/pinned them down many many years ago and have used them like this ever since. I think it was 2008. This is an old pair of Fidanzas, and there is no Rear exhaust specified cam gear, they all have the rear ex cam timing blade bolt holes. So I think they will all be the same.

Just spent a few hours getting the front pair off (yes, from running car to pulled off gears, not just hours to get the gears off the cams LOL). I will get the rear pair off maybe tomorrow.

So far I am a little sad. I could probably have made a couple more HP all this time.

Both gears are 1 degree off. When adjusted so that they are true ZERO, they are at -1 degree (retarded). Both are identically off -1 degree.
Meaning the actual ZERO start point is when the gear is set to -1 degree (retarded).

So, given this, this is how I have been running my car for say 5 years

-3 degree retarded exhaust gear has actually been at -2 degrees retarded
+1 degree advanced intake gear has actually been at +2 degrees advanced

So I have been running -2 degrees Exhaust +2 degrees Intake

Time to reposition them and drill the pin/lock down bolt holes and get a little more power.

Will post rear pair results when I get them. I think they will be the same.

-Chris

**J. Fast** · 01-12-2013, 02:20 PM

Will be interesting to see if you lose power, if it stays the same, or if it goes up. Are you expecting a bigger improvement than what you have going on already?

**Ninja Performance** · 01-12-2013, 04:21 PM

I would imagine more power. Running +2 intake -2 exhaust (what I have been running) isn't optimal. And I run stock heads and cams so the +1 intake -3 exhaust is the known best setup. No aftermarket incorrect cam grinds to throw that number off. Or new blanks camshafts that have totally different centers all together. Stock cams, and correctly ground same center cams like +1 -3.

While the "spread" between intake and exhaust is the same, it will be changed in relation to the rotation of the engine (crank and therefore pistons) and in relation in time to the ignition event and fuel timing.

I have all 4 of my Fidanza's off the car now, And as I suspected, all 4 of my Fidanzas have the rear timing blade bolt holes, so there are no designated rear exh cam gear.
And all 4 of them are off 1 degree. I have to set them to -1 to be at 0.

-Chris

**anyonebutme** · 01-12-2013, 04:32 PM

I'm trying to understand where this magical +1 -3 numbers came from if all the dyno testing were done with bad cam gears? Think about it for a second. Do you know for a fact that +2 -2 isn't the sweet spot in reality? How do you know? Were the gears that were used in testing tested for center?

Everyone is screaming to reset the gears to magical numbers without thinking about how those numbers came about.

**Ninja Performance** · 01-12-2013, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by anyonebutme

I'm trying to understand where this magical +1 -3 numbers came from if all the dyno testing were done with bad cam gears? Think about it for a second. Do you know for a fact that +2 -2 isn't the sweet spot in reality? How do you know? Were the gears that were used in testing tested for center?

Everyone is screaming to reset the gears to magical numbers without thinking about how those numbers came about.

Probably came from UR gears, which have been tested and 0 is 0.

Ray knew about the -3 retard on exhaust so long ago, he re-slotted stock cam gears to -3 for his exhaust cams WAY back in the day when he ran his stupid quick 15G car at the track.

-Chris

**J. Fast** · 01-12-2013, 05:22 PM

Seems strange because the overlap is the same for all positions wether it be true zero, +1,-3, and +2,-2. The only thing that's changing is the height of the valves in overlap. The exhaust to intake valve ratio is lower with a +2,-2 ratio meanig the reversion window is smaller. That leads me to believe those settings will produce more top end than +1,-3. I'm thinking the results will differ from Rays because he was using a turbo that produced far greater backpressure. You don't have the same reversion window as Ray did because your reving to 8500rpm+. I would think your results would not be the same as Rays because of that.

Also, it should be noted that Mitsubishi has -1.5 degrees of advance built into our cam gears when set to zero with a .5 degree offset. So your guys cam gears that are one degree over advanced in reality are at true zero. I ran the numbers like 5 times to verify in the cam claculator I posted in the "guide to degreeing cams" thread.

When you enter the data I crossrefenced from stealth316 and add in Mitsubishi's specified -1.5 of retard on the intake and exhaust.... the duration, centerline, and timing specs Mitsu claimed are mathematically proven.