Turbo/Efficiency Discussion

[sergechronos]

I have external gates already.

With open dumps... man, they are so loud though! I'm not sure I could put up with that haha

With the manifold set up you have, even modifying the existing wastegate set up to merge farther down stream as nearly as parallel as possible would go a long way towards helping efficiency. Original set up for the 3SX kit merges too close to the turbine wheel, and at poor angles.

Obviously not some easy to do thing to patch that yourself, but between that and fixing the exhaust leak stuff would go a LONG way towards improving the efficiency of your set up.

[Permanent grin]

I don't know if this would be of any use to you?

Dynomite - a collection of 3S dyno charts

André

[Streamln1]

Reviving this thread.

I have the 68HTA new version on its way, 51lb / min turbo. After extensive research, other than a $1600 turbo from garret or $1k+ from PTE, these fit the bill the best balance of power vs spool we can get and it bolts up to a td05.

I have E16g's now and I agree with all of the above, on a 3.0 liter 650 ish seems to be where they start tapping out. With the 68HTA's that's nearly 20lb/min more of turbo and if the DSM crowds numbers are anywhere near accurate, spool shouldn't be much more than 500rpm later.

My goal is also 8xx awhp, so if these 68hta's will support 35-37psi which they should in theory, which I plan on attempting to prove, should be a problem. And at $600 per turbo, what we got to lose Cams of course and head porting of course ontop.

The problem with the 3/s power vs boost equasion in the higher realm I believe has everything to do with the heads, compare it to a dsm head and you can see why they make more hp per lb/min than we do.

Secondly, most of the manifold options for us SUCK. Im switching to external gated custom made in house.. the old 3SX design is a bastard, the IPS ones are not much better with the thin walled SS. The new UPP externally gated design looks promising, but im not a big fan of their gate placement.

[futurevr4man]

Reviving this thread.

I have the 68HTA new version on its way, 51lb / min turbo. After extensive research, other than a $1600 turbo from garret or $1k+ from PTE, these fit the bill the best balance of power vs spool we can get and it bolts up to a td05.

I have E16g's now and I agree with all of the above, on a 3.0 liter 650 ish seems to be where they start tapping out. With the 68HTA's that's nearly 20lb/min more of turbo and if the DSM crowds numbers are anywhere near accurate, spool shouldn't be much more than 500rpm later.

My goal is also 8xx awhp, so if these 68hta's will support 35-37psi which they should in theory, which I plan on attempting to prove, should be a problem. And at $600 per turbo, what we got to lose Cams of course and head porting of course ontop.

The problem with the 3/s power vs boost equasion in the higher realm I believe has everything to do with the heads, compare it to a dsm head and you can see why they make more hp per lb/min than we do.

Secondly, most of the manifold options for us SUCK. Im switching to external gated custom made in house.. the old 3SX design is a bastard, the IPS ones are not much better with the thin walled SS. The new UPP externally gated design looks promising, but im not a big fan of their gate placement.

I actually have a set of those coming my way as well . We have similar power goals, the only difference being my stroker motor. I expect the 68HTA's to have nearly DR750 spool, but with 800hp potential. Should make for the perfect 'street car' turbo... and a vast improvement over 16g's and my 20g's... I hope!

And agreed, manifold options suck for us. Can't seem to find an affordable manifold that is quality work without getting cheated out of our money. DR's stuff is good, no doubt, but good grief it is so expensive! At some point, it's diminishing returns when you 'pay for quality'. At least in my opinion...

I tried to be clear earlier that Jrink made his power on the OLD STYLE 68HTA's but I think it fell on some deaf ears. JRink last said he made 755AWHP on something like 65% duty cycle on the NEW STYLE 68HTA's (the one's you and I bought)... lots of room left in the turbo's for sure. I could definitely see some mid 30's psi being pushed out of them without issue. DSM guys have broken 500hp with just one.

On that note, let's revisit this:

I wouldn't dismiss the td06h4 results. I know donniekak was a huge fan. Aero looks similar to the 9 blade td05 but td06h4 has more blades. Obviously larger...
9 blade td05
Inducer: 55.8 mm
Exducer: 49.1 mm

Td06H4
Inducer: 67.2mm
Exducer: 58.8mm

Would be an awesome back to back to back. 20g td05, 20g td05 aftermarket (9blade), 20g td06h4. Maybe even throw a td06sl2 in the mix, but I doubt the results on that are revolutionary based on my experience and the lack of outstanding results in the dsm world.

Back to the original post with a stated goal of 4-8k powerband, but no hp goal, plain ole evo3's fit the bill. Very impressive turbo.

The measurements taken direct from FP's website
CW Measurements -51.2MM Inducer / 68MM Exducer
TW Measurements - 60.8MM Inducer / 54MM Exducer

The Turbine wheel isn't quite a TD06H4, but it's bigger than the 9 blade td05's. The turbine housing itself is supposed to flow MUCH better than the TD05's as well. I've heard nothing but great things about these 68HTA's and for the $570 price they were selling at... you can't beat them!


Serge, I 100% agree with the way the wastegates are merged back into the manifold being a crap design. I plan on having someone that has fixed that before *hint hint* help out when I get my motor out over the winter... I may end up taking a trip to come visit right after Christmas... but we'll see. Time will be tight.

[NOMIEZVR4]

I was tempted to pick up a set but I don't have power goals anywhere near what you guys are wanting. Additionally I don't think I could live with a potential +500rpm later spool...that would make for a pretty narrow power band considering my 16g's with cams are at full tilt by 4100rpms as-is.

Good Luck and let us know how it goes

[NOMIEZVR4]

I was tempted to pick up a set but I don't have power goals anywhere near what you guys are wanting. Additionally I don't think I could live with a potential +500rpm later spool...that would make for a pretty narrow power band considering my 16g's with cams are at full tilt by 4100rpms as-is.

Good Luck and let us know how it goes

The guys that are upgrading, do you have numbers for your current setups?

[futurevr4man]

The guys that are upgrading, do you have numbers for your current setups?

I have track times (at 16psi), but no, as I've said before... I don't care about dyno numbers. I may eventually get my car dyno'd just out of curiosity, but I wouldn't lose sleep if I never did.

My car had so many stupid things I did wrong, that it won't be an apples to apples comparison anyhow.

[Streamln1]

Only 16psi? That's not a whole lotta boost there. Try 24-25 and that will make you giggle.

There is a lot of debate going on in regards to spool time with the 68hta. But I hit full boost currently at about 4200, and they are coming on hard by 3800. Most of the dsm guys are reporting little to no lag difference with the 68hta. Granted that's on a 2.0-2.4. Its a 500hp turbo and most are reporting that it OUTPERFORMS the FP Green. All the same boost and power, less lag. And cheaper too, who knew!! But among the DSM guys the Green is kind of Meh.


Personally I believe every single manifold setup for the evo16g's thus far have been poop. Sorry to those who put the hard work and r and d into it, but 3sx's pie cut nightmare manifolds and ips thin wall 16ga set? Also one MAJOR flaw on both is port matching, even with doing my own matching there is a BIG shelf between the exhaust ports and the headers. That's just killing velocity before it gets to the turbine wheel. Gilbert was the only guy IMO who made a good one, and he cant be counted on.

But my plan is to do this, peak out the 16g's and then do a REAL deal manifold setup with the hta turbos, none of this internal wastegate garbage, I truly think to unlock the potential in there we need to bump up to external gates. Funny how cheap the IPS/Fabberge manifolds are going for now lol. Not that they are bad, but they have a lot of room for improvement too. And theres some new technology for making manifolds these days, so its not as much of a guessing game and massive time suck.

Schedule 10 SS, external gates, proper runner diameter, CNC port matched flanges, ETC..and I have one of the best manifold builders around here to help out. Its going to make all the other manifolds look like a toddler designed them. Im sick of half ass garbage. Its also why I have probably the best fitting FMIC kit ever designed for these cars since DNP, because I pay attention to detail. We can sit here and debate lb/min vs hp all day long, but I truly think we cannot close the door on that discussion until we give the turbos their best fighting chance to build boost and hold it. The way my 16gs behave at higher boost suggests theres something going on with the exhaust velocity IMO.

[Streamln1]

BTW probably the final dyno day on my current 16G Evo3 GT will be Tuesday it looks like, cranking up the boost to 28 and gonna advance the timing a bit, hoping for some high 6xx's. I figure it will be a while before I get around to getting the 68's in there.

[familyMAN]

With all that boasting, you better crack 700+ on 16gs.