Questions about AWD ATX

Let me preface this by saying I am aware of the various ATX AWD threads out there and am familiar with them (specifically, Inperfectdarkness AWD ATX Conversion! - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center. That said, there are a couple of questions left unanswered in those threads that I would like addressed here. IPD, this has your name written all over it.

1) Since the front driveshaft section from an n/a AWD needs to be used, this effectively shortens the total length of the driveshaft. How are you still able to connect the driveshaft to the rear diff and the transfer case? It doesn't appear that the n/a transfer case is longer than the turbo one.

2) It seems the n/a AWD W4A33s are pretty hard to find. From what I hear, the W4A33 bellhousing from the DSM is different than the bolt pattern on the 6G72. Why not just make an adapter plate that mates the DSM W4A33 to the 6G72? Is the bellhousing really that different?

they don't really seem that uncommon on ebay:

MITSUBISHI 3000GT Stealth 6G72 NA Non Turbo Automatic AWD Transmission A38 | eBay

I'd consider one if my getrag I have bought turns out to be a piece of shit, but we burned up more than a few auto's in my old FWD car, so I'd have to beef this up and run a huge cooler.

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Originally Posted by Forest Gump

they don't really seem that uncommon on ebay:

MITSUBISHI 3000GT Stealth 6G72 NA Non Turbo Automatic AWD Transmission A38 | eBay

I'd consider one if my getrag I have bought turns out to be a piece of shit, but we burned up more than a few auto's in my old FWD car, so I'd have to beef this up and run a huge cooler.

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Ah, it appears I just wasn't searching with the right terms! That's a great price, AND it's in the CONUS! Awesome. That gives me hope for future plans.

195 for a transmission and transfer case? That's ridiculous

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Originally Posted by DK77

195 for a transmission and transfer case? That's ridiculous

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I know right? I don't even have a 3S and I want to buy it!

Still looking for a question to #1 though. Also, what prevents the use of a 5 or 6 speed Getrag transfer case? Is it the splines in the output shaft of the transmission? Wouldn't it just be easier to replace the output shaft so you can use the original VR-4 driveshaft?

the atx transfercase is beefy as f*ck. just lop off the front section, weld it onto the stock driveshaft, and ba-boom.

I think we used a 5spd driveshaft. I wrote a build thread when we did mine ancient years ago. It's on 3si, has step-by-step pictures, etc.

and yes, the bellhousing really is different between the DSM trans and the GTO one. It's not worth the time, and expense to fab an adapter plate when you can get the GTO trans at any JDM importer. I think we have 3 here in stock.

BTW, is this stemming from the thread on 3si? Just about every single post in there is mis-information, just an FYI.

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Originally Posted by Emilie@GZP

the atx transfercase is beefy as f*ck. just lop off the front section, weld it onto the stock driveshaft, and ba-boom.

I think we used a 5spd driveshaft. I wrote a build thread when we did mine ancient years ago. It's on 3si, has step-by-step pictures, etc.

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Indeed it is. I have a spare one lying around in my garage from my Talon and VR4Rob was commenting on just how big it is.

But, if you were wanting to go with a lot of power...say, 600+AWHP, you would want an upgraded output shaft. Why not just go ahead and replace the stock output shaft with a 300M, use the Getrag transfer case, and not have to do anything to the driveshaft?

I'll take a look around for your build thread.

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Originally Posted by Emilie@GZP

BTW, is this stemming from the thread on 3si? Just about every single post in there is mis-information, just an FYI.

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Shooter's thread, yes. I approach every thread with caution though, which led me to these questions. :)

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Originally Posted by BigTyla

Shooter's thread, yes. I approach every thread with caution though, which led me to these questions. :)

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OH, I was referring to the recent ATX AWD thread posted up a few days ago on there.

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Originally Posted by BigTyla

Indeed it is. I have a spare one lying around in my garage from my Talon and VR4Rob was commenting on just how big it is.

But, if you were wanting to go with a lot of power...say, 600+AWHP, you would want an upgraded output shaft. Why not just go ahead and replace the stock output shaft with a 300M, use the Getrag transfer case, and not have to do anything to the driveshaft?

I'll take a look around for your build thread.

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You can probably use the output shaft the DSM guys use, I'm sure they make a hardened one.

And I don't recall 3SX or Nelson ever reporting output shaft problems at their power levels.

if someone wants to repost the steps and the info here that would be nice ;)

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Originally Posted by Emilie@GZP

You can probably use the output shaft the DSM guys use, I'm sure they make a hardened one.

And I don't recall 3SX or Nelson ever reporting output shaft problems at their power levels.

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Oh sure, I'm just trying to get around welding a driveshaft. Don't like the sound of that at all. :p Then again, the DSM transfer case might be able to hold more power if we use the assumption that bigger = better.

To me, it seems just replacing the output shaft in the W4A33 with a 300M would be the easiest and most reliable solution. Then again, I don't have first-hand experience with the ATX conversion so I'm just trying to understand what the thought process was behind your car, IPDs, and others.

Any welder or machine shop should have no problem welding it, and relatively cheap. I had no issues with mine at all being welded.

My build thread wasn't really a step-by-step. And it was integrated into an AWD conversion, along with the ATX.

Converting a VR4 to ATX is a COMPLETELY different ballgame.

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Originally Posted by Emilie@GZP

Converting a VR4 to ATX is a COMPLETELY different ballgame.

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Should be easier, should it not? Only difference is integrating the TCU, right?

Yes. It's a bit of a wiring Pain in the ass if you try to retain the turbo harness, and "splice" in the TCU wiring, with a clean fit/finish. We're in the midst of doing it now, it's really the only major part holding up the project, and Hans is just DREADING diving back into this wiring...

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._1336728_n.jpg

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Originally Posted by Emilie@GZP

Yes. It's a bit of a wiring Pain in the ass if you try to retain the turbo harness, and "splice" in the TCU wiring, with a clean fit/finish. We're in the midst of doing it now, it's really the only major part holding up the project, and Hans is just DREADING diving back into this wiring...

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._1336728_n.jpg

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Haha yeah that is definitely not a fun thing to do, but hey, now that the harness is out you might as well do a wire tuck for him!

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Originally Posted by BigTyla

Let me preface this by saying I am aware of the various ATX AWD threads out there and am familiar with them (specifically, Inperfectdarkness AWD ATX Conversion! - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center. That said, there are a couple of questions left unanswered in those threads that I would like addressed here. IPD, this has your name written all over it.

1) Since the front driveshaft section from an n/a AWD needs to be used, this effectively shortens the total length of the driveshaft. How are you still able to connect the driveshaft to the rear diff and the transfer case? It doesn't appear that the n/a transfer case is longer than the turbo one.

2) It seems the n/a AWD W4A33s are pretty hard to find. From what I hear, the W4A33 bellhousing from the DSM is different than the bolt pattern on the 6G72. Why not just make an adapter plate that mates the DSM W4A33 to the 6G72? Is the bellhousing really that different?

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tyla, according to evan (shooter83) the 6-speed and n/a awd driveshafts are nearly identical. he even did comparison pics. we both felt it was at least "theoretically" possible to put the nipple from the n/a driveshaft on a 6-speed shaft, and have it work. it wasn't tried...but that was our hunch.

JDM Engine Depot

i sourced my trans from these guys. i see 6g7x w4q33 transmissions going for ~$300 all the time, so it's really a bargain as far as that goes. i've had zero problems with these guys, so if i bought another, i'd buy there again.


as noted, the price is stupidly low. ah, the beauty of awd atx. :)

you'll need a 6-speed rear end.

the dsm's use 2 different types of output shafts. iirc, 21 and 22 spline (don't quote me). i actually don't even know what type is on my car, lol!

my plan is to run my transmission STOCK and see how it holds up to the higher power levels. to my knowledge, stripping the output shaft is not a big problem for awd atx's...there just isn't the same kind of jolting force being applied as there is in an mtx in most cases.

i agree that vr4> atx is a pita...but it shouldn't be nearly as involved as the awd atx coinversion from fwd atx. there's really 3 key wires that have to be spliced into the tt harness/ecu from the TCU. evan had to wire my fans to be permanently on the "on" position as well. other than that, no real issues.

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Originally Posted by IPD

tyla, according to evan (shooter83) the 6-speed and n/a awd driveshafts are nearly identical. he even did comparison pics. we both felt it was at least "theoretically" possible to put the nipple from the n/a driveshaft on a 6-speed shaft, and have it work. it wasn't tried...but that was our hunch.

JDM Engine Depot

i sourced my trans from these guys. i see 6g7x w4q33 transmissions going for ~$300 all the time, so it's really a bargain as far as that goes. i've had zero problems with these guys, so if i bought another, i'd buy there again.


as noted, the price is stupidly low. ah, the beauty of awd atx. :)

you'll need a 6-speed rear end.

the dsm's use 2 different types of output shafts. iirc, 21 and 22 spline (don't quote me). i actually don't even know what type is on my car, lol!

my plan is to run my transmission STOCK and see how it holds up to the higher power levels. to my knowledge, stripping the output shaft is not a big problem for awd atx's...there just isn't the same kind of jolting force being applied as there is in an mtx in most cases.

i agree that vr4> atx is a pita...but it shouldn't be nearly as involved as the awd atx coinversion from fwd atx. there's really 3 key wires that have to be spliced into the tt harness/ecu from the TCU. evan had to wire my fans to be permanently on the "on" position as well. other than that, no real issues.

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Thanks for the info. Saved for future reference.

FYI, DSMs have 22- and 23-spline transfer cases.

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Originally Posted by BigTyla

Thanks for the info. Saved for future reference.

FYI, DSMs have 22- and 23-spline transfer cases.

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Early automatics did come with a 21 spline.

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Originally Posted by donniekak

Early automatics did come with a 21 spline.

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Just the '90, right?

I am posting this here, in hopes that someone who has gone through this already might help me out:

I installed a brand new end clutch kit yesterday, only to burn it out in less than five miles down the road! I followed the video, step-by-step and it still didn't work right. I keep re-watching the video, but still don't find anything wrong with the way I installed the kit. The only difference was that in my case it was really hard to re-install the retaining clip that holds the steel and clutch plates in place. On the video it seems very easy, while I had to push really hard with a screwdriver and even help myself with hammer taps, in order to get it back into the groove. I heard the guy saying that some end clutches come with three clutch plates and others come with four. I took out four out of mine, so I installed four back into it. However, there was absolutely no clearance left as I was barely able to install the retaining clip back on, as I mentioned above... I wonder if that has caused the new kit to burn up right away. I am also thinking of just using three clutch plates next time, so I can get the clearance into the drum. I am not sure if I am supposed to do that, but I do not want to burn another new kit and I need to do something different this time, if I don't want this to happen again... Any opinions or thoughts? I need this thing fixed asap, because my car is my daily driver! I can still use my old clutch plates for now, so I can drive the car while waiting for the new kit, but when I put them back into the drum and onto the car, I hear some buzzing or whining in all gears, even in park... That is why I am afraid to drive the car like that, because I do not want to burn those up completely as they still worked good enough to keep me on the road... Please help! Thanks!

Whining in gear could be your pump.

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Originally Posted by ilian51378

I am posting this here, in hopes that someone who has gone through this already might help me out:

I installed a brand new end clutch kit yesterday, only to burn it out in less than five miles down the road! I followed the video, step-by-step and it still didn't work right. I keep re-watching the video, but still don't find anything wrong with the way I installed the kit. The only difference was that in my case it was really hard to re-install the retaining clip that holds the steel and clutch plates in place. On the video it seems very easy, while I had to push really hard with a screwdriver and even help myself with hammer taps, in order to get it back into the groove. I heard the guy saying that some end clutches come with three clutch plates and others come with four. I took out four out of mine, so I installed four back into it. However, there was absolutely no clearance left as I was barely able to install the retaining clip back on, as I mentioned above... I wonder if that has caused the new kit to burn up right away. I am also thinking of just using three clutch plates next time, so I can get the clearance into the drum. I am not sure if I am supposed to do that, but I do not want to burn another new kit and I need to do something different this time, if I don't want this to happen again... Any opinions or thoughts? I need this thing fixed asap, because my car is my daily driver! I can still use my old clutch plates for now, so I can drive the car while waiting for the new kit, but when I put them back into the drum and onto the car, I hear some buzzing or whining in all gears, even in park... That is why I am afraid to drive the car like that, because I do not want to burn those up completely as they still worked good enough to keep me on the road... Please help! Thanks!

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Down load the W4A33 transmission manual. You will find clearances for every part of the trans. With 11 ft-lb applied to the end clutch reaction plate, there must be .024" to .031" clearance between the snap ring and the reaction plate. The clearance is adjusted by changing the snap ring with one of a different thickness. Also look at the exploded view of the end clutch to make certain all the parts are installed in the correct sequence/place. I would not expect changing clutch packs, even the upgraded units to cause the kind of bind you are experiencing.

As for the whine, I would drain the trans and look at the oil and filter. If the end clutch deposited much debris, the pump and much more could have been damaged. Just my 1.5 cents worth.

I will change the filter and fluid and see what happens... Thanks for the input!

The noise sounds like a bad pump, and the repeat failure could be a incorrectly installed seal. Did you install the new rubber seals that came with the kit?

Well, the noise comes from the end clutch so I am hoping that it is not the pump. Furthermore, I heard it the first time I started the car and shifted to reverse, after installing the new end clutch kit. There were no noises prior to that moment. I replaced all the seals that come with the kit, but after it burned out, shortly after installation, I realized that something was installed wrongly. So, I called John at IPT and explained the situation to him. He said that the only thing he can think of is that I did not install the piston far enough into the drum. Since that was one thing my friend did, I could not be sure about it, so I decided to open up the end clutch again and double-check. Needless to say, John was right. I reinstalled the piston properly, but I noticed that the outer seal was slightly damaged, so I re-used the old one as I did not notice any damage on it. I had to use my old clutch plates, because the new kit was burned to the metal... I reinstalled everything, but said problems are still being observed. I may open the end clutch again tomorrow, just to make sure it all looks right, but I do not have high hopes that anything will come out of that. I need to replace the filter and the fluid, just to be sure that the problem does not come from there. I already have another end clutch kit on the way, so hopefully, that will resolve the issues.

Well hurry up and fix it so you can finish making my awesome lights. :)

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Originally Posted by IPD

Well hurry up and fix it so you can finish making my awesome lights. :)

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I worked on your lights yesterday and it looks like I will be able to do the pattern you want. However, I think that the brake/turning signal portion of it will look better with arrows instead of with LED strips, bent to the shape you want. I will take pictures and videos of both and post them in my thread here so you could see how it looks and let me know which you prefer.