Or even within a closer vicinity to the turbos.
Discuss! :bigthumb:
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Or even within a closer vicinity to the turbos.
Discuss! :bigthumb:
Bad idea, even water particles into a turbo wheel spinning at 35K will cause damage. From everything I have read anyway.
If you can get the meth fully vaporized before going into the turbo it's ok. Be careful though, like green-lantern said, droplets of meth/water hitting compressor blades spinning at 100k is going to do a lot of damage. Same reason they didn't launch the shuttle when it was cloudy :p Besides, the turbo is still going to do a good job of heating the air right back up.
bad idea all around
This was talked about on the other site and I don't like to point someone there but it was a pretty in depth thread. It was in the advanced area. I don't know if they still have that area or not but you might be able to dig that thread up.
Not something I would ever do, but a good conversation starter. It seems that spraying 100% meth about 1" from the compressor yields the "safest" results. Nozzle has to be aimed directly at the nut, with a .75 or .1 GPH nozzle. Don't get it wrong or else... :eek4:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...2/DSCF2376.jpg
I'm more interested in post turbo spraying, say a couple inches away from the outlet on both turbos. Hopefully giving the liquid time to atomize before it gets to the intercooler, preventing the liquid from pooling. In theory. :rolleyes3:
Ouch!
I was getting ready to ask why you wanted to do this.
Even if atomized well before the inter cooler, would the cooler not act as a condensate zone due to temp change?
Have a look on Aquamist uk forum, there is a 50 page post on it!.
People have mentioned the compressor wheel wear problem, but it seems most of the damaged turbos that were posted up were also running WITHOUT air filters, so not a direct comparison.
I tested it out on the 9b`s, found no real gainst at the time with 125cc/min nozzles.
You have to aim for the compressor centre nut for best results and have good quality nozles with good atomisation.
It has been used in racing cars for decades nowadays widely used in drag racing and tractor pulling just to name few ..... . In F1 they used pre turbo injection that they could use a slightly smaller turbo and get a better response, it was banned shortly after though(some of the turbo era F1 cars used intercoolers too, combined with pre turbo WI).
Water injection was so successful with World Rally Cars too that it was banned shortly after :)
Good atomisation was the key to succeed in the long run
There were some road vehicles with large-displacement engines that used a water injection pre turbo but about when an intercooler was introduced the interest in water injection almost disappeared.As for road cars, saab, for example used a pre turbo water injection in the Saab 99 Turbo(1977–1980)..
It was and still is widely used in the military. some old examples below(many more examples out there).
Allison V-1710 Engine
LIGHTNING AMERICA: VEE-ENGINES V-1710 SERIES
Pre turbo injection really shined in the experimental turbo-compound engine which was at the time(1950īs) way ahead of its time.
Pre turbo injection was very successfully used for more than twenty years in INDY and Champ cars (still is) !
this is how cosworth did it (lola champ car)
http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/REM0768.jpgQuote:
They called the system Pre-Compressor Injection or PCI and they introduced it into competition on the XB. I think this is one of the factors contributing to Mansell's success.
http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/X...ctures/PCI.jpg
http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/PCI%20Fueling.jpgQuote:
It is a 2.65 liter V-8 burning methanol and producing in excess of 750 horsepower at 12,000 RPM and 45" of boost.they were run to 13,200 RPM in their day,
The XB uses sixteen primary Bosch Motorsport injectors, two per cylinder http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/X...B%20Intake.jpg , and four side feed Bosch injectors arranged in a ring, called the PCI, at the turbo compressor inlet. Fuel rail pressure is 8 Bar or approximately 120 psi! Atomization at this pressure is a sight to behold.The compressor inlet injectors serve to cool the incoming mixture as it is compressed. Fuel is supplied by a mechanical fuel pump located in the fuel cell
also note that they injected almost 50% of the fuel pre-compressor and thats a shit load of methQuote:
The system works remarkably well. When I first started looking at engine data, I really thought the inlet air temperature sensor was broken. It just sat on 68 DegF which just could not be so given that there was a turbocharger and ambient temperatures were up around 90 DegF. I then expanded the data session to look at all the data from the session including firing up in the hot pits. As you can see below, inlet air temperatures start off at about 130 DegF then rapidly fall when the PCI ring fires. With heat soak, I've seen these temperatures up in the 190s and yet they fall like a rock when you stand on the gas. Neat trick Cosworth!
another great example:
http://image.gmhightechperformance.c...ace_launch.jpgQuote:
the worlds fastest C6 Z06 Corvette running on pump gas using one of our The Best Water injection system and water methanol injection systems at AlcoholInjectionSystems.com tri nozzle systems, 2 at the charge pipe and one directly before the supercharger inlet..
This is a street car. A street car with air conditioning, heated seats, and no rollcage. It runs on pump gas, drives to the track and runs 8.81 at 154 miles per hour.
Car went 8.80 first day at the track.
http://image.gmhightechperformance.c..._component.jpg
http://image.gmhightechperformance.c...gine_parts.jpg
The Corvette above is running an air to air intercooler.
waterinjection.info - Powered by vBulletinQuote:
However, when intercooled we make sure that we size the nozzle only large enough so that everything that is sprayed is completely evaporated in the turbo or supercharger. No fluid is exiting the compressor. Only a cooler air charge and a slight increase in boost.
Add a nozzle pre-compressor and we can bring those temps down slightly further and depending on how much boost your running you can pick up some boost by doing so as well.
Look in the Gallery section and you will find many successful examples.
i have done my research on the subject .I find is that almost everyone that has tried have had good results.Still I find that not very many people have tried this and I see why it is precision work and there are great risks involved. I have also found numerous people that have had impeller damage,mostly in these cases they were using large amounts of water and usually had the nossles in a poor location like below.
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...2/DSCF2379.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...2/DSCF2376.jpg
conclusion :
Quote:
99% of set up's have zero problems. Your is a combination of bad location, bad shape of intake, non-metal (those rough plastic surfaces grip water droplets) No space for the fluid to properly mix with the airflow (it just settled out of the airstream)
So basically the bad location was like running a stream of water into the blades.
The most correct way to do it is something like:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/rice/1.jpg
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/atta...ur-take-11.jpg
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gall...ecooler/17.jpg
I believe aquamist makes them .
You can order them here too.
Pre-Compressor Jet Holder - Howerton Engineering, LLC
Bad thing is your limited to one injector per turbo.
The other way to do it would be like this below.This way you could use multiple smaller nozzles to yield better atomisation
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...e_silicone.jpg
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gall...aptor/bore.jpg
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/adaptor/jet.jpg
And of course, you could weld a bung(s) on the preturbo pipe.
Just make sure the nozzle is long enough to extend far enough inside the nozzle adapter its vital to allow it to spray properly and place it not too far away from the turbo inlet !
Interesting, I'd still be fearful of a setup that isn't proven. In other words I wouldn't want to go through 2 sets of turbos getting it right. Seems like the risk is to high for the pay off.
Edit: the thing above looks pretty cool
better start with the DR750īs :awesome:Quote:
Originally Posted by green-lantern
:lol: of course
Wow interesting! It make sense (if it works) cooler air before being compressed would help making boost, like when it's cold out there. Make me wanna try a very small nozzle for each turbos. I was thinking (not sure) to try direct port injection like 6 x 175ml/min, that could be a good match with pre compressor injection.
25$ each for those nozzle holder though!
Eric
i can see where the benefit would be, but for a DIY person, i think its a terrible idea unless you just have lots of time, money, and knowledge on the subject. interesting that its so widely used though.
on a dif note, i always thought meth injection was more desired to keep the pistons cool. you would not get that from pre turbo injection. making more boost is easy, keeping pistons cooler is not so easy
might be a dumb question, but doesnt the water meth injection go after the maf? wouldnt water or meth getting on the sensor mess with the airflow readings?
All the above mentioned setups are after the maf sensor. The main topic Is about locating the nozzle between the the maf sensor and the turbo (right before the turbo).Quote:
Originally Posted by thor'svr4
i'm confused as to how this would help cool intake charge any more successfully than POST turbo injection.
It doesnt, Its a combination of both that yields the best results 'Staggered injection' (on most cases...if primary fuel is gasoline... )
I guess I should add this info here.
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3259/sdc11906.jpg
Pre-Turbocharger/Centrifugal Injection
By placing the water methanol injection nozzle or nozzles pre-turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger and injecting a fine precise amount of water methanol into the air inlet of the compressor can have a dramatic positive effect on compressor efficiency (particularly with turbocharger systems and high boost centrifugal applications) while substantially lowering discharge temperatures at the source of compression. On 8-25 psi applications, users can expect to see a 70-160+ degree drop in compressor discharge temperatures. While reductions of 160-240+degree's can be had on 25-60+ psi high boost applications such as diesels.
How is this possible?
When water methanol is first injected, we're able to begin slightly cooling the incoming air entering the compressor. This air is already relatively cool in relation to the ambient temperature of the day as it has yet to be compressed and heated. Depending on the temperature of the day and how the air inlet is plumped and where the air is being drawn in from, the incoming air entering into the inlet of the compressor commonly ranges between 5-20 degree's above ambient. Only minor cooling of the air charge occurs at this stage before it enters into the compressor. More importantly, we are about to dramatically cool the air that is being compressed and heated within the turbocharger.
It's important to understand it is here that the heat is being generated.
A turbochargers impeller can spin at an astonishing speed between 100,000- 150,000 rpms. While centrifugal supercharger impellers spin between 40,000-65,000+ rpm. Between each pair of blades on an impeller exists a wedge shaped open space which the air fills in. As the impeller is spinning, this wedge shaped air pocket is subjected to tremendous centrifugal forces and is forced outward away from the center of the impeller to the outer edges. It is here where the air begins to stack up and compress against the compressor housing forming the heat as it makes it way into the scroll.
As the compressed air heats up, it tries to further expand, making it now more difficult for the heated compressed air to pass through and exit the compressor thereby lowering the compressor efficiency. In addition, this compressed air is taking up more space within the compressor limiting new incoming air from being processed. Furthermore, the hot compressed air exiting the turbocharger is less dense as it has been heated significantly. Therefore, containing less power producing oxygen while making the engine considerably more prone to detonation.
By cooling the air as it's being compressed within the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger, the compressed air is now substantially cooler, more dense, taking less space and moves more efficiently through the compressor allowing us to pack and process more air through the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger. This leads us to our second benefit. Improved compressor efficiency.
All of this results in improved compressor efficiency. Because of this improved efficiency the compressor does not have to work as hard to produce the same amount of boost as without the water methanol injection. In turn it raises the maximum mass air flow of the compressor. Thereby, making a smaller turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger now perform like a larger turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger with the addition of the water methanol injection.
Lastly, as already mentioned above, pre-compressor injection substantially lowers the discharge temperatures exiting the compressor. The engine is now less prone to detonation through this reduction in air charge temperatures. Furthermore, the use of an intercooler is dramatically reduced and in some applications no longer needed as it may not offer substantial further cooling effects in return for the pressure drop caused by it. Removal of the intercooler could now offer a further increase in boost pressure at the engine as well as compressor efficiency.
While all of this sounds very exciting. To do this properly requires proper sizing of the nozzles in relation to the compressor size and output. Additionally, the type fluid being used also effects the size of the water injection nozzle selected. When done properly, very little of the water methanol mist injected into the inlet of the compressor survives the process. Thereby, discharging a much cooler air charge with a relativity high humidity with very little or no water methanol droplets present.
When injecting water, we can quickly over saturate the air charge and have an excess of fluid discharging the compressor. Water has a much higher latent heat of vaporization, nearly double that of methanol, and does not flash (instantly evaporate) like that of methanol or other alcohols when injected into a hot air stream. Therefore, a smaller nozzle must be used when spraying pure water.
A better choice for pre-compressor injection is a greater concentration of methanol vs. water or pure methanol. Methanol instantly flashes (evaporating) as soon as it enters into a hot compressor and meets the heat within it. By using an alcohol, this dramatically reduces the amount of actual fluid exiting the compressor due to it‘s fast evaporation. Additionally, methanol offers much greater cooling effect then water. Furthermore, methanol is also less dense then water thereby having a softer impact on the impeller. The specific gravity of pure methanol is .792 @ 68° F compared to water which is 1.00 @ 64° F.
One major concern associated with pre-compressor injection is erosion of the impeller. This is only likely to occur when injecting solid stream of water at the impeller of a turbocharger or using an excessively large nozzle. Impeller erosion is highly unlikely with centrifugal supercharger as they spin at a considerably slower speed then turbochargers. Impeller erosion is of little concern with centrifugal superchargers.
http://photos.motoiq.com/MotoIQ/Tech...31_yPiDN-L.jpg
Pre Throttle Body Injection
Positioning the water methanol injection nozzles or nozzles just before the throttle body or carburetor on turbocharged and centrifugal supercharger applications is by far the most common position and one of the most beneficial of all. Furthermore, most every application can easily be fitted in this manor. With injection taking place just before the throttle body/carburetor, inches before the intake of the engine, significant cylinder cooling and detonation suppression is achieved. Additionally, air charge temperatures are significantly reduced through the intake manifold.
Care should always be taken concerning adequate distribution. In many cases intake manifolds can have individual intake ports beginning right after the throttle body. In applications such as this, the nozzle need only be pulled back away from the throttle body 4-5 inches to ensure proper distribution between all intake ports and not feeding one more then others.
Many of our concerns are eliminated when injecting in this location such as injecting prior to the mass air meter, intercooler or being excessively to far away from the intake of the engine. With injection taking place right before the intake of the engine, the effects are maximized.
As already mentioned, positioning the water methanol injection nozzles or nozzles just before the throttle body or carburetor on turbocharged and centrifugal supercharger applications is by far the most common position and one of the most beneficial of all as it offer excellent air charge cooling and exceptionable detonation control and cylinder cooling.
Staggered Injection
Staggered injection involves combining pre-compressor injection with an additional secondary nozzle positioned further down the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger, such as pre-throttle body/carburetor injection. By combining pre-compressor injection with pre-throttle body injection, were able to improve the efficiency of the compressor while dramatically reducing air charge temperatures at the compressor and again at the intake for a combined synergistic effect. Furthermore, the secondary nozzle provides the necessary cylinder cooling, detonation control, and reduced EGT's which the pre-turbocharger nozzles does not.
Best of all, installation remains essentially the same and costs are only marginally more as the addition of a secondary nozzle and tee fitting are all that is required. We highly recommend the staggered injection for all turbocharged applications and high boost centrifugal applications.
For complete details on Pre-compressor injection and Pre-Throttle Body/Carburetor injection these are listed above individually.
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...tion_turbo.jpg
Post Intercooler Injection(3)
Post intercooler injection technically refers to injection anywhere after the intercooler. However, in this discussion we are specifically taking about post intercooler injection which takes place directly after the air-to-air intercooler on an application which has a considerably lengthy discharge tubes
Here the user has numerous locations and plenty of space available to inject after the intercooler. Often times users will believe by placing the nozzle further away from the intake of the engine, they will have better atomization, better charge cooling and ultimately better performance. In a case like the engine above, placing the nozzles directly after the intercoolers is not as desirable as placing them directly inches away front of the throttle body or carburetor, as this is excessively further away then needed.
While this will result in a well atomized, cool air charge entering into the intake manifold. Much of the water methanol injection would have already evaporated leaving little injection available for internal cylinder cooling, added detonation control and reduced EGT's. Additionally, In some case's the air charge can actually begin to heat back up due to excessively long discharge pipes being routed around hot radiator, turbocharger, hot pipes and exhaust.
Location of the mass air meter and IAT or ACT sensor location should always be considered. Never inject pre-mass air. Only in pre-turbocharger applications when done properly can one inject prior to the mass air.
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7...port2la0np.jpg
Direct Port Injection
Direct port injection involves positioning a water/methanol injection nozzle in each intake port of the manifold. This allows for the use of several smaller injectors to be used in each intake port as opposed to one larger nozzle located upstream of the intake manifold servicing all the cylinders. Unfortunately, direct port injection generally requires the removal of the intake manifold to complete installation. Thus making for a considerably longer and more complex installation.
While this does offer the benefit of better atomization, more uniform and even distribution through out the cylinders. In addition to possibly better detonation control, cylinder cooling and reduced EGT's. It's generally not needed as other nozzle locations can be nearly just as effective requiring considerably less work and costs involved. Furthermore, one problem with running direct port injection is users are not likely to monitor differences in IAT's (intake air temperatures)
Port injection is more common on 4 cylinder engines as added cost's for additional nozzles and fittings is acceptable and removal of these type of intake manifold is generally much easier. In general, we do not recommend port injection as we have achieved excellent results using other less complicated and costly nozzle arrangements and locations.
Pre-Compressor Injection Precautions
Never place your water methanol injector before the mass air meter. The only time this may be allowed is with pre-compressor injection. When done properly, little or no fluid is exiting the compressor. Only a cooler denser, high humidity air charge with little or no actual fluid remaining in the air charge after the compressor.
When installing your water methanol injection system on a EFI vehicle, it's best to first determine where the IAT or ACT sensor is located before deciding on a nozzle locations. Often times we can position the nozzle before the factory IAT (intake air temperature) or ACT (air charge temperature) sensor location without having to relocate it. This allows us the ability to better use the IAT or ACT sensor for retuning the ECU for the addition of the water methanol injection system.
Unfortunately, many of our newer vehicles have now incorporated the IAT sensor in to the mass air meter. With most applications we can disable this IAT sensor in the mass air meter and install a new separate IAT sensor in a new desirable location.
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html
sorry im so used to running a blow through setup that i forgot the stock maf was draw through and before the turbo. my bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by vr4tune
You probably mean .75 to 1.0 GPH I guess ?Quote:
Originally Posted by mb3000
Eric
Yeah I would go staggered, not just pre-compressor.Quote:
Originally Posted by futurevr4man
Eric
i'm thinking since methanol has tendency to absorb heat , it also would help to drop the charge pipe temperature even more after the air going through IC.
I would start with a 1gph(63 ml/min) per turbo to be safe and then work my way up from there by adding more nozzles/ or a bigger nozzle. Just make sure it atomizes perfectly the droplet size is key to safe pre-turbo injection. People seem to have best results with 130ml/min - 175ml/min per turbo at 400chp or about 610cfm at compressor Inlet Conditions...
Yes that's what I meant. Sorry about that. :Doh:Quote:
Originally Posted by TT Eric
this one ?Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithMac
Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers - waterinjection.info
I've looked into those jet holders and personally I would not bother with that, especially with small TD04's inlet, what a restriction it would make, plus we would need to find a way to introduce a line into the intake pipe to go to the holder...
About this picture :
I've talk with Rodney at AIS (alcohol injection systems), very very nice guy and he told me that this picture has been floating around the internet for sometime now. That impeller was not ran with any water methanol injection. Had it been using water methanol injection the impeller would be totally clean and not dirty. This damage was caused by not running an air filter in a really dirty environment...Quote:
Originally Posted by mb3000
I was asking him if they were selling .75GPH and he said that they do not offer nozzles this small, so I though maybe 1GPH... So I told him what I actually run (1000ml/min pre-throttle) and asked him what he would recommend me as pre-compressor nozzles, he said to not bother with 1GPH as it would do nothing, more like 4-5GPH (250-300ml/min) before each turbos... and this is additional to the 1000ml/min I'm already injecting before the TB. 1'' to 6'' before the turbos would be best.
Eric
hmm interesting . I have noticed that most WI kits max out at 1600-1800cc(after that the line pressure is going to drop drastically) or so in that case you are very near the flow limits
here is the thread: pre-turbo compressor damage - Devilsown Methanol Alcohol Water InjectionQuote:
Originally Posted by TT Eric
If you continue to read the thread there is some explanation to why it could have happened. Many factors didn't help. Still I would be very prudent to do it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by mb7050
Rodney at AIS told me they installed about 3-400 pre-compressor system, and they never saw yet one that caused damage.
Eric
I didn't knew 1800cc was the limit! What size pump ? 220psi ?Quote:
Originally Posted by mb7050
I would be around 1500-1600ml/min, glad I have a custom tank of 2.75g :D!
Eric
most (standard) kits , using a 150-200 psi pump IIRC
just make sure yours can flow enough
Might want to get this:
250psi Methanol-Water Recirculation Pump
Or run two!
Great thread guys!
Yeah bigger pressure = better atomization!
Eric
it has been stated by many sources that spraying it before an intercooler should not be done as it will cause water to condense in the intercooler.Quote:
Originally Posted by mb3000
;)
from : http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html
Quote:
2. Pre-Intercooler Injection
While pre-intercooler injection may at first seem like a logical approach. Thereby, combining the effects of water methanol injection within the air-to-air intercooler for an increased synergistic effect. It is not so. Matter of fact, it's the opposite. The cooling effects and benefits offered by the water methanol injection are less when injected here then in all other locations. Further, more other issues arise such as puddling which can form in the bottom of the intercooler. Additionally, pour atomization will occur as the fluid will accumulate in the individual air to air intercooler core walls of the intercooler forming larger droplets which will eventually break away resulting in pour atomization. We do not recommend pre-intercooler injection.
2 more nozzles + 250psi pump ordered! :)
Eric
Can't wait to see the results! :bigthumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by TT Eric