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I know there is a big believe/possible myth out there that widebands will die very shortly if installed in the stock o2 housing locations, but does anyone have first hand experience with this?
I want to go to dual widebands now and the stock locations are optimal if you are running a standalone. Faster response time, nice and neat wiring possibilities, don't have to mess with them every tine you pull the down pipe, decent angle for water to run off of them, etc.
Just curious what you would do with the narrowbands? Or does an AEM let you use the wideband signal for them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimvr4
The narrowbands are gone already, plugged. The aem works from wideband feedback, there's a map you set the afr all the way from vacuum to full boost. 3d map by rpm and psi/load. With dual ones it can assign certain cylinders to the right wide and does dual feedback. You can trim individual cylinders as well, so if one bank is lean you can tune it out.
Look at where oem widebands are located.
I've had mine in for 2yrs and they seem to be fine, but I probably only have 4k on them.
Hmm. I seem to recall Trevor or Phalse had tried it and burned up their sensors. I know the AEM states that it's supposed to be 24" or 36" away from the turbo, can't remember which.
There are no oem widebands...
Innovative says they want their sensors 24 inches after the turbo. Also this: The maximum temperature of the sensor
at the bung (the sensor mounting location) should not exceed 500C or 900F. If these temperatures are exceeded in your application you should install the Innovate Motorsports HBX-1 heat sink bung extender. (p/n 3729.)
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2
AEM says they want their sensor 18 inches after the cyl heads and after any turbocharger.
I guess it would work but is it worth potentially having the problem of inaccurate readings or massively reduced sensor life?
My car hits 1600-1700 deg F in the front manifold. I know the turbo sucks away a lot of heat as the gas loses energy spinning the turbine but I would venture to say that 02 housing temps are still very high. Maybe the finned bung is all you would need. Some quick searching on pre/post turbo EGT's are showing 3-400F degree drops post turbo
What do you mean there are no oem widebands? The bosch part that aem and others use is used in vw and audi cars and probably a lot of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by R/T93
Apologies this one is for a suburu:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bosch-17018-...=mtr#vi-ilComp
I see, meant for other engines.
I appreciate the literature and have seen it before, but I really wonder if they are either being overly cautious or are basing their recommendations on obsolete information/tech.
Maybe the first widebands had big troubles with them, but with OEMs using them in stock style locations it seems pretty safe to me. I know that narrowbands are a bit of a different tech, but you'd think if the O2 housings got hot enough to kill a wideband it would kill a narrowband. Also, the stock o2's are right next to catalytic convertor material, so surely that saw a lot higher temps than we see with open o2s.
It might make sense to use the cooler things, but I am not sure there's enough room, up front especially.
I'm not confident the open o2 housings hit 1300 degrees, seem's like at that point your gaskets would be on fire and your fans, and your firewall, etc. Maybe erron runs that type of temp :)
I think I recall something similar, he was running them really close to the turbo IIRC. Could have been killed by the heat, maybe leaded fuel, over rich, not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by UTRacerX9
It's worth the $110 for the sensors to try to me. If I kill them oh well, but would suck to setup the wiring neatly and careful and have it not work out. Was hoping more folks had tried this, I guess not a lot of people don't use the narrowbands.
Gas is gas so I'm figuring the rotary vs piston difference wouldn't skew things much.
http://www.rx7club.com/race-car-tech...o-egts-358196/
I moved mine up into the stock 2nd gen locations due to faster response times (there is an issue with lag in the downpipes).
Will be keeping an eye on things but from what I've seen the Bosch is a very robust sensor.
Running closed loop you need the fastest response time you can get.
I have both of mine in the stock location with no problems. If you are worried about it you can buy your sensors from advance auto and warranty them out for free, I think they carry a one year warranty
I ran an Innovative WB + NB02 in the stock rear bung. Worked perfectly except for one big issue. I had to re calibrate it often. Went back to a stock NB and moved the WB to the downpipe.
That said, if you are not using your NB a WB should work there, at least I didn't have issues. But since I use the NB, every time the calibration went off my cars tune would be off.
-John
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=oe...ePEdzIsubkM%3A
Click link above, the Nissan GTR-35 uses wideband sensors just after the turbos (where our narrowbands normally sit). Not common to have a failure and this is an OEM factory application.
I'm not worried now about running in the stock 2nd Gen locations :).
I'm interested in the results as I would mind trying it out in the near future as well.
looks like I may end up replacing both widebands as well, lsu 4.9 sensors are the new thing. The old ones are 4.2.
http://www.ecotrons.com/technology/b...su_42_sensors/
Yep, good call. They should be a bit more durable but more importantly MUCH quicker acting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest Gump
$110? I get my wideband sensors at autozone for $70ish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest Gump
Lots of Dsm guys use wide bands in the o2 housing. The makers of dsmlink recommend this placement. The software in link lets the stock ecu use the wideband for trimming, and let's you log the wideband with the rest of the ecu data. Oh yeah, native speed density on the stock ecu as well.
Yeah I meant for 2, they are $54 right now on amazon.Quote:
Originally Posted by donniekak
That is good to know, I think I will make the switch. Do you see any issues running a lsu 4.2 sensor in one bank and a 4.9 in another? Otherwise I'll just have to sell my current wideband.
FYI: http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/medi...9147659pdf.pdf
Rated for 930c continuous, 1030c max intermittent. o2 housing should not see that temp unless you have some issues.
I received one of the 30-4110 in the mail today and I'm going to run that in the front and the older lsu 4.2 in the rear bank for now until I upgrade it. It should be interesting to compare the response times in logs.
The 4.9 is where it's at. No free air calibration required!
Sent from my iPhone 6s+ using Tapatalk
Those look like the ticket then. No they won't see those temps no way.
I fancy 4.9's but I'd have to start from scratch with another controller..
The 4.2's main issue was sampling under bonnet air as fresh air, if you have no exhaust or oil leaks it shouldn't be an issue.
Watching with bated breath...
The more I read the less actual difference I see between lsu 4.2 and 4.9. The 4.9 was designed to report leaner mixtures originally to support diesels. Bosch changed everything over to it because it worked fine for gas. It has a smaller ceramic heater part, so it can light off quickly and reduce cold start emissions. It should be slightly faster due to less thermal mas.
Either should work about the same in practice though and the controller can have more impact than the sensor differences. The new X-series aem widebands have about a 20ms response time and the older controller types (including the 30-4110 I received) do about 50-60ms.
Based on my datalogs the car doesn't really sweep through that much rpm in 60ms, so I am not sure there is a practical difference. There may be more latency than that in the aem o2 feedback.
I think moving the sensor upstream will have a greater impact on the reaction speed of the o2s than changing to an x-series. If my inline wideband happens to sell I will switch to an x-series on the rear and see if you can notice a difference between front and rear response times, but I doubt it.
I have read some information posted by someone who tests the widebands at aem and he says what really kills o2 sensors is running richer than 11.0:1 and being closer than 5" from the turbine wheel because some actual flame can come past the wheel and scorch the sensor.
The stock o2 sensor locations are 4-5" from the turbine wheel I would say (I will try to capture some measurements later), so should be safe. Extended 2-step operation may be hard on them, but they are rated for 250 hours at 1030 celsius, so I would think you'd melt the o2 housings off the car before you would kill the sensor abnormally fast.
The bosch tech sheet actually recommends running the sensor in as hot of an exhaust as you can without overheating it for best response and accuracy.
If you want to run pre-turbo you need the pressure compensated 4 channel wideband kit from aem or similar though. The accuracy can drift as much as 20% at 30 PSI of exhaust pressure.
Edit: oh and like keith said they eliminated the free air reference chamber on the 4.9s and instead use some current strategy I don't fully understand. This should make the sensors last longer and react faster in the long run. The aem tech and others state that as the sensors age they don't usually fail outright if properly thermally controlled, they just keep getting slower.
Apparently Innovate has a very high number of sensor failures because it seems that their heater control strategy could be improved.
If you get the 4.9 sensor make sure your controller uses Bosch's own control chip, they work hand in hand and will garantee correct readings and heating strategy.
The stoich reference current is generated/ referenced from the control chip from what I've seen allowing a sealed unit (better for oem applications).
I've been dabbling with closed loop correction under full load using a gear position switch so only 3rd 4th and 5th gear allow it, 2nd gear is too quick to allow any meaningful correction.
Still mulling over leaving it like that full time or just for tuning runs..
My Zeitronix ZT-2 has been very reliable, 10 years service without a single issue, would deffinitely buy another (or a pair of zt-3's).
The traditional and the 4.9 AEM wideband uses the bosch chip. The X series is a custom in house design and they have done their homework.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithMac
Will be interesting to see if you find better response with the X, how do you plan to measure it?.
If you have overun fuel cut enabled you could use 0% idc and 22 afr as an idea for gauging response time.
I have decided to return the 30-4110 and get a 30-0300 x series. It doesn't make sense in the future to use 2 different widebands with different response time for o2 feedback IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithMac
Yup the stoich reference is from the internal pump current, and heater control is the absolute most important aspect of a wideband. Accuracy varies widely with temperature, which is why I chose a wideband with sensor temp display.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithMac
There is a great explanation of the differences between the sensors here btw:
http://www.ecotrons.com/technology/b...su_42_sensors/
Sent from my iPhone 6s+ using Tapatalk
OK, so first of all the AEM x series has a MUCH bigger digital display , it is a lot better to look at while driving. In pics you don't really think it is that much bigger, but in real life it is. I think aem says 83% bigger diagonally, and I believe it.
http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/p...83260578824179
They are really fast. Reaction is instant. Easy to install, high quality harnesses, enough sensor wire length to reach the trunk if you felt like it. I have them installed in the stock locations, so far so good. There seems to be a lot less subjective lag to the readings. The other nice thing is these show on the display when they are still heating and has led me to realize that cranking afr's are not readable right now because I am using the cigar lighter fuse for power and that looks like it kicks out while cranking. Need switched power that still works while cranking.
After running dual widebands I am convinced they are critical to getting the best tune on an aem ems. I found the front runs about 5% leaner at idle and 2% leaner at higher rpm. Setting up individual cylinder trims of +5 at idle on cylinders 1,3,5 and 2% at redline, with horizontal interpolation between makes the car idle and cruise smoother than I can ever remember. Rock solid idle. The idle only moves around 15-20 RPM, sometimes as tight as 8 RPM.
Nice! Although bummer you end up having to use up two gauge pod spots.
Yeah, that is a shame. I have to find a place to mount my aem serial gauge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni
Chris, you have anything to say about the dual readout widebands?
Innovate makes one
http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_vi...dProduct=35300
And I believe Haltec makes one as well
some data supplied by aem:Quote:
Originally Posted by futurevr4man
http://www.aemelectronics.com/files/...ison_Chart.jpg
IMO once you start getting much over 50ms, certainly once you go over 100, a wideband is useless for tuning WOT.
Note in the above test 10ms of time can be subtracted from all results, because that was the time their test solenoid took.
I don't know about the DLG-1 specifically, but would guess its about the same speed as the other latest innovate widebands. The lc-1 seems to be the last one they made with good response time.
The other thing is the display on the duage gauge is really small per side. The really big numbers on the x-series are really helpful to see while you are tuning and seeing if a pull is safe.
The final issue is the innovate do not use the calibration resistor, even on the 4.9 controllers AFAIK. They act like this is a good thing, needing to constant air calibrate, but I don't think it is. I don't mean to sound like a salesman for aem, but the x-series now has an option to air calibrate if that is your thing.
I don't want my widebands to take up two spots though... and I need two because I'm running true dual exhaust. Thus, need to find one that has a dual readout
I'll do a little digging to see if I can find anything about the DLG-1