A1 Studs, Headlift Fix and still lifted - heres why- please read

So last week I was trying to get some final numbers on my e16G kit and I got up to 595 awhp on 100 octane at 24psi and started to see some coolant push, so obviously it was time to call it a night. Head gasket was not compromised.

I have A1 Technology heads, and Ray's headlift fix on DR Stage 3 heads.

I pulled the motor apart the other night with the help from one of my engine builder buddies, and we figured out the problem. The washers that A1 comes with are smaller than stock in Diameter, so they had dug into the head slightly leaving an indentation. He had just been down this road with a Supra build and this is a common problem with them and ARP head studs. We are thinking the aluminum had yielded due to the washers digging in. Every single stud was different torque after the lift.

I had religiously followed the torque sequence provided by A1 using their moly lube, and retorqued them after head cycling on it. So torque was certainly to spec and had been checked since.


We think we need to go back to the stock size head washers so it spreads the load out. 105ft lbs may be acceptable, but do we really need to go to 125 with 30 weight?

I am not necessarily blaming the a1 washers on this, because I had ARP's in the past so its likely their washers were also the cause and I had overlooked the indentions into the head, but the A1 washers are still smaller than stock.

I don't think this is a problem that will present itself until 600 and up HP. I CANT be the only one to see this. And ironically their problems start at around 600hp.

See the Supra thread here- http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...-Washer-debate

Just a heads up for those who have A1's or ARP's and going for big power, check your washers! Were not helping our matters by defeating the benefit of stronger studs on a smaller surface area.

Edited- A1 Washers are fine, I did compare to stock washers same diameter, im thinking the old ARP kit from years back did this. I will post pics of the double indent from the washers Monday when I go by the machine shop.

put inserts in head. read on the 7m supra guys. their heads are soft and this was the fix. dsms are starting to do it also. especially if 1/2" studs are used.

We think a wider washer is just as good. The fact is the smaller washer caused issues, and no issues with wider washers in the Supra. I agree maybe im at the point where its yielded and now no matter what is going to lift even with bigger washers and need an insert put in which your not the first person to say that. But as we speak im having a machine shop mill off a tiny bit to make the seating surface flat again, I will talk to them about doing an insert for added safety though since your the 2nd person to mention that. Stronger cant hurt

Im surprised this has not been mentioned before, with so many people running ARP's, it CANT be only me. Im sure as usual, its been a problem with others, never really discussed or addressed.

Good info, and good catch!

-John

Do you happen to know any other factors that could be related to the peak cylinder pressure? Timing advance at peak torque? EGT's?

Can you also measure the washers so I can estimate the cylinder pressure to exceed compressive yield? Do you also know the depth of the indentation? You might also find that the bolt hole inside diameter on the cylinder head has reduced from the yielding.

Ewan

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You say 600hp and up... but wouldn't it be based off cylinder pressures? That force is what is pushing the head off... and horsepower is not directly related to that.

Also, I have the headlift fix and STOCK headbolts/washers. I wonder what cylinder pressure I should be good up to? I also have 2 68HTA's ready and waiting to go on...

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Originally Posted by chooch

Do you happen to know any other factors that could be related to the peak cylinder pressure? Timing advance at peak torque? EGT's?

Can you also measure the washers so I can estimate the cylinder pressure to exceed compressive yield? Do you also know the depth of the indentation? You might also find that the bolt hole inside diameter on the cylinder head has reduced from the yielding.

Ewan

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

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Timing was not too crazy..18-19 degrees it was about all the 100 octane would take though
i do agree the pressures were prob high, we backed it down a degree or too for safety. The inner side of the holes are mushroomed a little too. I will measure them tonight

Most people dont lift until 700 ish..

ARP's are known to be a waste of money. Stock is worlds better. That's ancient knowledge.

I lifted the heads around 600. Switched to A1 (I convinced them to make the 1st set), and o-ringed the heads. Never had another problem clear into the 8xxawhp/7xxawtq range. However, as the dirty Kentuckian said, power isn't the real factor here, it's cylinder pressure. I wouldn't be scared to recreate my build with stock bolts.

Jeremy

ARP's are stronger than OEM, but not by much, then the next step up is A1, but i believe that good power can be made with OEM head bolts. Here in the UK we've had quite a few people lift heads in the 500- 600 range, with slightly lower grade petrol.

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read a while ago PRM uses different size head gaskets to fix head lift

Pit road M head gasket - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center

http://www.pitroadm.com/public/ENGINE/PARTS/GASKET1.htm

If any part of the gasket hangs into the cylinder you are asking for trouble.

So I went to the shop today and grabbed a stock head bolt and washer..A1 washers are the same size.

There is a clear double indention in my head from a washer, one is stock level, 2nd is from a washer. I think the old ARP's I had a few years back, caused this. All good on the A1's. I am still going to see if I can find a slightly wider washer from maybe ARP, its not going to hurt things.

So heads up, not sure if anyone had old ARP's from maybe 2003-2005 era, but check your head washer area.

All the threads and fixes have left me somewhat baffled over the years. For every anecdotal citation of failure with A,B,C combination of hardware/installation process/tuning set up/power level there seems to be ten cases of just the opposite results from the same combination.................and vice-versa.

In my mind, coolant push is extremely simple..........yet amazingly complicated at the same time. The simple side is that each and every instance of coolant push into the overflow reservoir is caused by exactly one and only one thing: pressure in the coolant system exceeds the rated lift pressure of the pressure cap. The complicated side is: what is the source of the excessive pressure in the coolant system?? And how do I fix it?? For some people, simply jacking up the lift pressure from 13psi to 23psi is all that is needed. For others, some combination of fastener/gasket design/lift fix/etc/etc/etc was required to solve the problem. Some never find the right set of parts/installation/tuning that slays the evil Push Dragon. And for every ten vehicles with this problem, it seems there are 25-30 potential "fixes".

I think one underestimated factor is air pockets in the cooling system. These can be the result of lack of initial fill purging or small coolant leaks that draw in air instead of coolant from the overflow reservoir. Another issue I think is underestimated is the water pump itself. Certainly different non-oem units can more readily induce cavitation leading to hot spots, and system over pressure. And certainly the operating conditions in the environment influence things.

My conclusion? Every case has to be evaluated on its own merits. There is no single cure for the problem. Why do I say this? Because there are too many scenarios that will cause the observed symptoms and too many reports of different combinations that "fixed" the problem.

Just my 1.5 cents worth.

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Originally Posted by Streamln1

Timing was not too crazy..18-19 degrees it was about all the 100 octane would take though
i do agree the pressures were prob high, we backed it down a degree or too for safety. The inner side of the holes are mushroomed a little too. I will measure them tonight

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That's a lot of timing for that boost and octane. The head was compromised, but your tune is what popped it. Can you be more specific on the 100 octane you were running? Most 100 unleaded is only only 95-96 MON, and does not offer a huge increase in knock deterrence over 93, especially if its watered down with a little 93 left in the tank. Was it pure 100 or mixed in with some pump gas? Or did you dilute a higher octane and/or leaded fuel down to 100? There's a huge difference in MON depending on how you get to "100". What WTQ were you making?

Its probably a combination of things, cylinder pressure, non flat washer surface giving me innacruate torque readings on the head studs, etc. While not directly related to power, with my power goals in mind with my build in the process of changing, its actually a good thing it happened at 600awhp when I was about to pull the engine anyways for the new turbos. Even on e85 with my goal of 800-850awhp I bet they would have lifted, and been a lot bigger deal. I wasn't super pissed about it, it was just a learning experience for me.

Fuel was 95% Sunoco 100, we drained the tank down to next to nothing, maybe 1/2 gallon left and 10 gallons of 100. We backed the timing back down to about 16-17, closer to 18-19 was the knock threshold on that fuel though torque was still rising. 560ft lbs was the peak. We scooped the timing a bit in the peak tq area to keep it friendly. the HG was not really damaged much, you could see one spot on the gasket where it had pushed a little under boost, but it was very brief from the looks of it. And the heads are still strait so that's another good thing. The tuner I work with is damn good at keeping a close eye on things and when to abort and back it off. Compared to some I have seen over the years, hes probably the most careful and trustworthy.

Going e85 on much bigger injectors now, so that's going to significantly lower cylinder pressures, plus its cheaper. Doin a flex fuel sensor and map on the AEM as well. E85 was a little scary to me, not because of the tune but the variance in quality out there, but it seems doing a flex map will help keep everything in line with what the fuel will take safely.

Also, im looking into getting the PRM head gaskets, from what I have read they have a superior fire ring design, has to be much better than the cometic gaskets im running. Although there are a lot of success stories with cometic, infact I had run them for 10+ years, but again never at this power level, not saying they were the cause by any means but it cant hurt to step up in that area too.

So eliminating most of the probable causes, and back to it:)

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Originally Posted by donniekak

If any part of the gasket hangs into the cylinder you are asking for trouble.

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They don't hang into the cylinder, they just offer various thickness like the cometic ones.

While I agree, this was clearly lift, the volume of push was definitely caused by overpressured coolant system...if it was just spitting out a little, I would prob up the cap to a 1.3 bar. It has a 1.1bar on it right now.

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Originally Posted by BaadVR4

All the threads and fixes have left me somewhat baffled over the years. For every anecdotal citation of failure with A,B,C combination of hardware/installation process/tuning set up/power level there seems to be ten cases of just the opposite results from the same combination.................and vice-versa.

In my mind, coolant push is extremely simple..........yet amazingly complicated at the same time. The simple side is that each and every instance of coolant push into the overflow reservoir is caused by exactly one and only one thing: pressure in the coolant system exceeds the rated lift pressure of the pressure cap. The complicated side is: what is the source of the excessive pressure in the coolant system?? And how do I fix it?? For some people, simply jacking up the lift pressure from 13psi to 23psi is all that is needed. For others, some combination of fastener/gasket design/lift fix/etc/etc/etc was required to solve the problem. Some never find the right set of parts/installation/tuning that slays the evil Push Dragon. And for every ten vehicles with this problem, it seems there are 25-30 potential "fixes".

I think one underestimated factor is air pockets in the cooling system. These can be the result of lack of initial fill purging or small coolant leaks that draw in air instead of coolant from the overflow reservoir. Another issue I think is underestimated is the water pump itself. Certainly different non-oem units can more readily induce cavitation leading to hot spots, and system over pressure. And certainly the operating conditions in the environment influence things.

My conclusion? Every case has to be evaluated on its own merits. There is no single cure for the problem. Why do I say this? Because there are too many scenarios that will cause the observed symptoms and too many reports of different combinations that "fixed" the problem.

Just my 1.5 cents worth.

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Hopefully you guys back off the timing for e85. You don't need or want the timing at boost hit/peak tq. Up top may be fine at 18-19 depending on your setup.

Well, lets keep in mind peak boost on this pull was 25psi, and at 6500rpms it had dropped to 22-23psi.

We can debate timing all day long but its going to be different for each car. I bet a dollar had my head studs not been compromised it wouldn't of push a drop. As long as you can trust the tuner, and are not going for every last single HP possible at risk of the engine, theres always that safe but powerful zone.

Im far from a tuning expert myself, Im a rookie so I always ask the experts before making any changes, but the guys I work with I trust and have years of experience.. and the cars they have on the road are not blowing up and doing good at the track.

at the torque peak/peak boost, timing was around 10-11, I will have to look at the map to verify but somewhere in that range. we ramped it up after 5000rpm. I have seen guys take it way beyond that, not saying that's smart but I have seen a lot of tunes well into the 20's without lift of pushing coolant. Setup dependant of course. I think Chris was getting all the way up to 28 degrees on E85 up top on high boost.

Chris was running E95.

It's way easier on an engine to crank the boost up over 30-35psi and run minimal timing than it is to try any eek out every last hp at low boost with more timing.

I've blown way more head gaskets at 25-30psi and lots of timing than I have at 40psi and low single digits ramping up to 14-16* at 9,000 Rpms.

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Originally Posted by HilbillyHomeboy

as the dirty Kentuckian said

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:suspect:

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Originally Posted by HilbillyHomeboy

ARP's are known to be a waste of money. Stock is worlds better. That's ancient knowledge.
I wouldn't be scared to recreate my build with stock bolts.
Jeremy

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I was asking chatbox this... no one could remember for sure. Didn't Ray have stock headbolts (along with other modifications done) on his chameleon car? Or was it Chris Hill who runs stock headbolts?

I am all for making improvements, but I think car people (and especially guys from this forum... I'm not calling you out Streamin, just talking generalities) have a bad habit of trying to make things "better" before they ever come close to the current limitations of stock/simple. I am sure I'm guilty of it as well. Just seems to further over complicate an already fairly complicated system IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Streamln1

Its probably a combination of things, cylinder pressure, non flat washer surface giving me innacruate torque readings on the head studs, etc.

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Were your washers upside down by chance? I know stock has a flat side and a rounded side; could be a silly mistake like that.

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Originally Posted by Streamln1

Going e85 on much bigger injectors now, so that's going to significantly lower cylinder pressures, plus its cheaper.

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I'm not meaning to nit-pick, but how is e85 and bigger injectors going to lower cylinder pressures? Wouldn't your static cylinder pressure, and your boost, be the driving factors here and not injectors? I can see fuels reacting to pressure differently for sure... especially e85... but the fuel itself shouldn't have an effect on the pressure should it? Maybe I'm missing something fairly obvious here?

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Originally Posted by donniekak

It's way easier on an engine to crank the boost up over 30-35psi and run minimal timing than it is to try any eek out every last hp at low boost with more timing.

I've blown way more head gaskets at 25-30psi and lots of timing than I have at 40psi and low single digits ramping up to 14-16* at 9,000 Rpms.

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I've often wondered (and I might have made a thread on it once upon a time?) if there is any data,if plotted, that would show an intersection on HP output when you compare high boost/low timing to low boost/high timing. Obviously I don't mean extremes cause more air will very often make more power, but like 35psi/22 degrees vs 40psi/12degrees. I would be pretty interested in the power delivery/RPM's, and how the engine behaves as well. Lots of factors at play.

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Originally Posted by futurevr4man

:suspect:




I was asking chatbox this... no one could remember for sure. Didn't Ray have stock headbolts (along with other modifications done) on his chameleon car? Or was it Chris Hill who runs stock headbolts?

I am all for making improvements, but I think car people (and especially guys from this forum... I'm not calling you out Streamin, just talking generalities) have a bad habit of trying to make things "better" before they ever come close to the current limitations of stock/simple. I am sure I'm guilty of it as well. Just seems to further over complicate an already fairly complicated system IMHO.




Were your washers upside down by chance? I know stock has a flat side and a rounded side; could be a silly mistake like that.




I'm not meaning to nit-pick, but how is e85 and bigger injectors going to lower cylinder pressures? Wouldn't your static cylinder pressure, and your boost, be the driving factors here and not injectors? I can see fuels reacting to pressure differently for sure... especially e85... but the fuel itself shouldn't have an effect on the pressure should it? Maybe I'm missing something fairly obvious here?




I've often wondered (and I might have made a thread on it once upon a time?) if there is any data,if plotted, that would show an intersection on HP output when you compare high boost/low timing to low boost/high timing. Obviously I don't mean extremes cause more air will very often make more power, but like 35psi/22 degrees vs 40psi/12degrees. I would be pretty interested in the power delivery/RPM's, and how the engine behaves as well. Lots of factors at play.

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Theres a happy medium, too much timing will kill an engine in a hurry, not enough it will be slow... a good tuner will find you that sweet spot of safe vs power. Some tuners g E85 likes timing, but the problem is by the time you see the knock sensor start to make noise your already past the safe zone...so its good idea to keep an eye on that torque number.

Some pretty famous fast 3/S guys have run a lot of timing in their cars, Chris hill and Matt Monet for example.

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Originally Posted by futurevr4man

:suspect:




I was asking chatbox this... no one could remember for sure. Didn't Ray have stock headbolts (along with other modifications done) on his chameleon car? Or was it Chris Hill who runs stock headbolts?

I am all for making improvements, but I think car people (and especially guys from this forum... I'm not calling you out Streamin, just talking generalities) have a bad habit of trying to make things "better" before they ever come close to the current limitations of stock/simple. I am sure I'm guilty of it as well. Just seems to further over complicate an already fairly complicated system IMHO.




Were your washers upside down by chance? I know stock has a flat side and a rounded side; could be a silly mistake like that.




I'm not meaning to nit-pick, but how is e85 and bigger injectors going to lower cylinder pressures? Wouldn't your static cylinder pressure, and your boost, be the driving factors here and not injectors? I can see fuels reacting to pressure differently for sure... especially e85... but the fuel itself shouldn't have an effect on the pressure should it? Maybe I'm missing something fairly obvious here?




I've often wondered (and I might have made a thread on it once upon a time?) if there is any data,if plotted, that would show an intersection on HP output when you compare high boost/low timing to low boost/high timing. Obviously I don't mean extremes cause more air will very often make more power, but like 35psi/22 degrees vs 40psi/12degrees. I would be pretty interested in the power delivery/RPM's, and how the engine behaves as well. Lots of factors at play.

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From my understanding, the higher the octane rating the cooler it burns and is more stable, which lowers the cylinder pressure at a given boost number, e85 burns even cooler than race fuel too. And is much less likely to pre detonate which is hard on everything obviously and those cylinder pressures under a knock event are through the roof. So my comment was specifically about the fuel choice, the injectors are a given since I need a lot more fuel... I doing a lot of research myself on the subject. Although one would think that boost and power are directly related to the cylinder pressure its a lot more complex than that.

Washers were definitely right side up. I will snap some pics tomorrow at the machine shop when I stop by.

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Originally Posted by futurevr4man

I'm not meaning to nit-pick, but how is e85 and bigger injectors going to lower cylinder pressures? Wouldn't your static cylinder pressure, and your boost, be the driving factors here and not injectors? I can see fuels reacting to pressure differently for sure... especially e85... but the fuel itself shouldn't have an effect on the pressure should it? Maybe I'm missing something fairly obvious here?

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I'm guessing since E85 burns slower it reaches peak cylinder pressure later in the cycle (longer after TDC) assuming you keep timing the same.

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Originally Posted by familyMAN

Chris was running E95.

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Yeah, I remember reading that. A lot of people are still up in the 20's on ethanol..I don't plan on going to the ragged edge however.

I looked at the map from the coolant push, timing at 4000-4500 was at 12 degrees, at 6500 it was at 18, backed that entire area back down by 2 degrees for now.

Don't get pit road m head gasket. Get a hold of Saph. He made fire ring head gasket. Worked great on his gallant vr4 v6 which have massive head lift issue.

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Originally Posted by Streamln1

From my understanding, the higher the octane rating the cooler it burns and is more stable, which lowers the cylinder pressure at a given boost number, e85 burns even cooler than race fuel too. And is much less likely to pre detonate which is hard on everything obviously and those cylinder pressures under a knock event are through the roof. So my comment was specifically about the fuel choice, the injectors are a given since I need a lot more fuel... I doing a lot of research myself on the subject. Although one would think that boost and power are directly related to the cylinder pressure its a lot more complex than that.

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Hmm. Makes sense. Fair enough.

E85 is more prone to pre-detonation than any other high octane fuel. The 15% 87 octane helps cause that.

E85 burns slower than gas so it doesn't have that sudden explosion like gas.

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Originally Posted by mehrshadvr4

E85 burns slower than gas so it doesn't have that sudden explosion like gas.

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It can pre-ignite like Forest said which will wreak major havoc. That's why it's suggested to use a colder, non-projected plug.

There is some over simplification of ethanol vs gas on the last couple of pages that isn't entirely correct. If I have time, I'll try to dig up some of the links to MIT papers I have read on ethanol that will help the conversation.

That would be awesome. I've heard a lot of talk about ethanol but all too often it's just based on what people have heard from other non-experts (which I am of course guilty of myself).

On my original DR 800 build with a forged 3.1L, I pushed coolant like crazy with ARP studs and cometic gaskets. I was told by Matt Monet to put stock gaskets and stock bolts and it. That stopped the coolant push until I started running and 30 psi and nitrous together. Once it started pushing coolant it did a little bit frequently. After putting some fresh stock gaskets on I had Von Morgan tune it with a flashable ECU. Von made the engine happy by moving fuel tables around and timing adjustments.

Heads are back on now with the washer area machined flat and I used a larger washer, they are not going anywhere this time. Engine going back in next week