1994 VR-4 needs resurrection or...

Greetings everyone! I'm new to the forum, and I like the atmosphere and level of technical knowledge here, so I decided to post about my dilemma.

I have a 1994 3000GT VR-4 with 93,xxx miles, almost 94,000. It's black with black leather interior, has the glass roof, Active Aero, Active Exhaust, factory adjustable suspension, factory chrome 17"s, etc. Pretty much the same way all the '94 VR-4s came. I bought it around 12 years ago, drove it for a while and then blew the engine. It's been sitting in my garage ever since... for the last 10 years. Maybe even more than that by now. I never got a chance to take the engine apart to see what happened because my life took a sharp left hand turn shortly after the engine blew. Then over time it became a garage fixture/shelf/conversation piece/day dream materiel.

Now I'm moving across the country and I've got to do something with it. So I either have to fix it and keep it, fix it and sell it, or sell it as is. I'd like to fix it and keep it, but I already have three cars to bring with me when I move. Adding a fourth to the move probably means paying to have it shipped, which may not be financially feasible. That means if I fix it, I'll only be keeping it stock with no mods, because you never get the value of your mods back when you sell a car.

What's wrong with it? Oh, well the engine went rata-tat-tat-tat for a while, then it went klang-klang-klang-klang for a little bit, and then it went no more. At the end, the knocking sounded like someone hammering impatiently on something large and metal, but without the bell-peal of hammered metal. Then it seized. Then after several months of sitting, flicking the key repeatedly got the engine to turn over and fire briefly like it was going to start, and then die. All the while sounding like a coffee can full of main bearings. I know these engines often have problems with the main bearings around 100k miles, so it probably spun a main bearing which was the rata-tat-tat-tat sound, then it spit the bearing out, and then something snapped or welded itself. That means I'm likely looking at refinishing the bearing journals on everything, and/or replacing the crank, and/or replacing a rod, or all the rods. That's in addition to the usual honing, decking, and a rebuild kit with rings. And in addition to replacing half the fuel system because it's gonna be all turpentine and molasses in there.

So with that background, what do you guys think? Any ideas on what it's worth as is vs. what it's worth in running condition? It's a Florida car that's been kept indoors for the last 12 years, and probably before that as well, so no rust issues. The chrome on the wheels is bubbling on two of them. The paint is intact, but scratched. I'd drive it that way after a lot of buffing, but it doesn't do the car justice. I'm leaning heavily towards fixing it unless all the parts will be prohibitively expensive. I can't open it up to investigate the broken bits yet because I have to get rid of a half parted out motorcycle that's in the way before I do anything. Also, any suggestions on where to get a rebuild kit and bottom end parts for a good price? Or a good place to get machine shop work done? There's some places here in town, but perhaps a specialist out of town would be better? I remember there was a specific go-to guy, in Indiana or something, to do block work when I had my Starion.

Any suggestions and advice are welcome.

I like the "rata-tat-tat-tat, klang-klang-klang-klang" description. Sounds like you may need some serious engine work even a new engine depending on the damage done.

Depending on how contaminated the oil got the turbos and oil cooler may need some work too.

If the rest of the car is in good shape I wouldn't hesitate in getting the engine fixed. You guys in the US of A got plenty of good vendors like Chris Hill and Ray. Here in Europe the situation is very different...

Sell it to 92VR4Widebody for whatever you can get. It's definitely a partout. It will cost more to fix than it's worth unless you have time and space to do all the work.

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Originally Posted by DrvLikHell

Greetings everyone! I'm new to the forum, and I like the atmosphere and level of technical knowledge here, so I decided to post about my dilemma.

I have a 1994 3000GT VR-4 with 93,xxx miles, almost 94,000. It's black with black leather interior, has the glass roof, Active Aero, Active Exhaust, factory adjustable suspension, factory chrome 17"s, etc. Pretty much the same way all the '94 VR-4s came. I bought it around 12 years ago, drove it for a while and then blew the engine. It's been sitting in my garage ever since... for the last 10 years. Maybe even more than that by now. I never got a chance to take the engine apart to see what happened because my life took a sharp left hand turn shortly after the engine blew. Then over time it became a garage fixture/shelf/conversation piece/day dream materiel.

Now I'm moving across the country and I've got to do something with it. So I either have to fix it and keep it, fix it and sell it, or sell it as is. I'd like to fix it and keep it, but I already have three cars to bring with me when I move. Adding a fourth to the move probably means paying to have it shipped, which may not be financially feasible. That means if I fix it, I'll only be keeping it stock with no mods, because you never get the value of your mods back when you sell a car.

What's wrong with it? Oh, well the engine went rata-tat-tat-tat for a while, then it went klang-klang-klang-klang for a little bit, and then it went no more. At the end, the knocking sounded like someone hammering impatiently on something large and metal, but without the bell-peal of hammered metal. Then it seized. Then after several months of sitting, flicking the key repeatedly got the engine to turn over and fire briefly like it was going to start, and then die. All the while sounding like a coffee can full of main bearings. I know these engines often have problems with the main bearings around 100k miles, so it probably spun a main bearing which was the rata-tat-tat-tat sound, then it spit the bearing out, and then something snapped or welded itself. That means I'm likely looking at refinishing the bearing journals on everything, and/or replacing the crank, and/or replacing a rod, or all the rods. That's in addition to the usual honing, decking, and a rebuild kit with rings. And in addition to replacing half the fuel system because it's gonna be all turpentine and molasses in there.

So with that background, what do you guys think? Any ideas on what it's worth as is vs. what it's worth in running condition? It's a Florida car that's been kept indoors for the last 12 years, and probably before that as well, so no rust issues. The chrome on the wheels is bubbling on two of them. The paint is intact, but scratched. I'd drive it that way after a lot of buffing, but it doesn't do the car justice. I'm leaning heavily towards fixing it unless all the parts will be prohibitively expensive. I can't open it up to investigate the broken bits yet because I have to get rid of a half parted out motorcycle that's in the way before I do anything. Also, any suggestions on where to get a rebuild kit and bottom end parts for a good price? Or a good place to get machine shop work done? There's some places here in town, but perhaps a specialist out of town would be better? I remember there was a specific go-to guy, in Indiana or something, to do block work when I had my Starion.

Any suggestions and advice are welcome.

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With the kind of noises you are describing you probably did actually spin a bearing or pound it out. In any case, drain the oil and check for shiny or hard pieces. You can also cut open the oil filter to look as well. IF that's what you did, you get to replace the crank and rods (or have them all machined), get the block completely flushed out, probably line bore the mains. Your oil cooler likely has material stuck in it now too and should be replaced, and the turbos should at least be sent off to be checked out and rebuilt as they likely ate it as well. Of course reassembly means a complete gasket kit (around 400 bucks), your cylinder walls may need to be bored but will definitely need honed, and you would need new rings for the pistons (around $100 for that.) Whether or not this is affordable for you would depend entirely on how much of it you can do yourself. There's no escaping the machining costs though which would likely be 500-600 bucks.

As is vs running is a moot point if you find it like that given you'd need to spend several thousand to fix it and the current market value on these cars isn't great even in mint condition. Realistically, you'd probably get about 1500-2000 for it as it sits since the block itself will need a few hundred worth of machining work to be reused, and maybe 5 grand to 8 grand after you have it running again. Considering that your tires are probably dry rotting, most of your rubber bushings are probably not looking too pretty either, and any fuel left in the system has probably varnished your gas tank, pump and lines (if not rusted internally) it could get VERY expensive.

Well let's just cut to the chase. If you think the car is worth spending a minimum of $5000 on, then proceed to fix it. You WILL have a hard time getting any 'more' money out of it even if you fix it back to stock then sell it. On top of that, this is all assuming everything goes to plan... all the time and energy involved...

Point is, you need to get out from under it. If you want a VR4 in the future then get one, but this one is going to kill your bank account and you'll be left with a mediocre (from the sound of the paint, etc), stock VR4.

Not trying to be a turd, just giving it to you straight.

The fact that you gave 3 options says a lot. As mentioned this is not $500 in parts and a weekend ordeal.

You are $500 in 60k parts alone. Realistically your best option. Is a Pamp short block, and supporting assembly items.

On the cheap you are looking at $3500, proper around 4.5-5k with all fluids, and assorted bushings in need.

Your dream car, and emotionally attached, go for it. Any other answer, or hesitation, sell it. Pick something up in the $5 to $8k range once you settle, and get an itch.

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Thanks for all the replies and advice. I've been doing some more research into parts, and as long as I don't need a new crank (because they're $1000+) I think it's feasible to do a rebuild.

I have the time, space and ability to do all of the work myself except for the machine shop work. I can get a "rebuild kit" which includes a full upper and lower gasket set, piston set, piston rings, main bearings, rod bearings, thrust washers, freeze plugs, oil pump kit and timing belt for under $550. Or, if I don't need pistons, which I doubt I do, a non-OEM gasket kit from 3SX is $190 and a full set of Clevite bearings is $100. Then a new oil cooler and lines is around $100. Add probably a new fuel pump, FPR, filter, injector o-rings and some rubber fuel line for $150. A 60k service kit is $300 for non-OEM. Plus fluids and cleaners and I'm starting at roughly $1000 before machine shop work and unforeseen broken stuff. Sergechronos estimated machine shop costs at $500-$600, which I can live with. And then there's having the turbos serviced.

Alternatively, I'm considering a JDM engine from JDM Engine Corp. I've seen 6G72TT engines on their site for between $2200 and $1800 including shipping to a residential address. But then I'd still need an oil cooler and fuel system parts, and to have the turbos serviced. But then it would just be a swap instead of a month(s) long rebuild. Any opinions on that?

I attached a couple pictures so you guys can see what I'm working with. These were taken just before the engine blew, so it was entombed in my garage looking just like that. Currently it's under a layer of sheets and blankets acting as a dust cover.

Attachment 8665 Attachment 8666

The last "low mile Jdm" block I saw had a cracked piston, and smoked like James Bond out the gate.

I do spun bearing rebuilds for people all the time. I usually source a good used crank, ditch whatever rod spun the bearing and get a replacement, then have all the rods resized, new bearings, at least new rings and a hone, new oil pump, new water pump and timing set, always new lifters, new valve seals, lap the valves at least, and a new gasket kit. Then the oil cooler needs thrown in the trash and a new one with new lines sourced.

Donniekak, when you do that kind of rebuild, how much does it run with and without labor? And why the used crank? The original isn't salvageable after a spun bearing?

Crank depends on damage. If caught, and not drove/started soon enough there is only a turning, and polish needed.

Also do not save money on non oem TB, water pump, and tensioner accessories. I have witnesses, and replaced what happens when trying to save on a tensioner, and water pump. There are many threads on both sites of a quick freshen rebuild, or a 60k done to save money that cost twice as much in the end.

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Originally Posted by CoopKill

Also do not save money on non oem TB, water pump, and tensioner accessories. I have witnesses, and replaced what happens when trying to save on a tensioner, and water pump. There are many threads on both sites of a quick freshen rebuild, or a 60k done to save money that cost twice as much in the end.

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What Coop said. If you're going to do the rebuild don't try and save money with non OEM parts.

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Originally Posted by DrvLikHell

Donniekak, when you do that kind of rebuild, how much does it run with and without labor? And why the used crank? The original isn't salvageable after a spun bearing?

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I get good used cranks for about the same money it takes to properly grind and check a stock crank. A spun bearing crank has to be checked for cracks, cleaned, ground, polished, then the galley balls pulled and tapped for plugs. After all this you probably won't have the proper fillet radius, or be sure the journals will be as hard as stock.

It's usually around $3,000 for me to properly fix a spun bearing car, and that's cheap.

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Originally Posted by CoopKill

Also do not save money on non oem TB, water pump, and tensioner accessories. I have witnesses, and replaced what happens when trying to save on a tensioner, and water pump. There are many threads on both sites of a quick freshen rebuild, or a 60k done to save money that cost twice as much in the end.

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I always use oem tensioners and pulleys, but gates, continental, or mitsuboshi belts are as good as stock. Also a gates belt kit comes with oem pulleys. It's a solid savings over Mitsubishi sourced parts, and the quality is the same.

I do like oem water pumps for the simple fact that you get the whole pump.

I have seen an itm timing belt rip in half, and the dayco store brands aren't any better.

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Originally Posted by donniekak

I always use oem tensioners and pulleys, but gates, continental, or mitsuboshi belts are as good as stock. Also a gates belt kit comes with oem pulleys. It's a solid savings over Mitsubishi sourced parts, and the quality is the same.

I do like oem water pumps for the simple fact that you get the whole pump.

I have seen an itm timing belt rip in half, and the dayco store brands aren't any better.

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Was not aware Gates had a kit. I use the Gates belts. LOL, I've installed 3 aftermarket water pumps of which 2 were cracked/leaking out of the box.

And the only way to tell is to pull it, so I that's moving to the top of my agenda. I gather you guys will be hearing more from me when I start that process.

I would start fresh with a new(er) engine. There's a longblock for sale on the other site right now for 2500 that was a new OEM short block and refreshed heads. Have your turbos rebuilt (or converted to 15gs) and throw an oil cooler on it and call it a day.

I've bought two JDM import engines before. Both of which had bad VSS but otherwise ran fine. Also a good starting point for rebuild.

Pampena Motorsports Stage 1 Engine - Pampena Motorsports

Thanks for all the advice guys. And thanks a lot for the link to that stage 1 engine link CoopKill. That's definitely an option. If $3000 is cheap for a rebuild after a spun crank, and new(er) engines can be had for less than, or the same as that, then I think that's the way to go.

It's also looking like, no matter what, I won't be able to keep the car. There's just too much going along for the ride as it is. I may end up selling my truck too. So, with that in mind, should I just sell it as is instead of putting a whole lot of work into it for somebody else? I won't get much for it though, and that pains me, especially after all these years.

Sell it as is. I won't throw 3k at it to possibly get 5k for it.

I've been checking Autotrader and very few VR4s go for as low as 5k, most of which are 91-93 and/or have 200k miles on them. And if I sold it right now I think I'd have a tough time to get 2k as is. So I believe fixing it is the best way to go.

Something being listed for 5k, and sold for 5k are two different things.

although, I do enjoy working on the vr4, I don't think I'd do all that work to possibly brake even.

like someone already said, you can probably get a long block for 2500ish more turbos will be between 15o and 300, you can probably source the fuel stuffs for pretty cheap, but still, it's smelling like 3000 doll hairs, and you doing the work yourself to possibly make a profit.

however, she does look very clean, and if she was running well, you might be able to hit that 6k mark, but it is kind of s gamble.

if I thought I wasn't going to get what I thought she was worth, I'd destroy her, or give her to someone that will fix her, like there will be blood if I see that you sell her to some idiot that's not me.

or, if you have time, you might part her out, which is lame, but that drivetrain should fetch a grand alone

good luck. sorry.. where ya movin' to?

It seems like fixing the car is not going to be an option. The year is almost half over and I haven't even been able to make space to work on it. Too many other things keep demanding my attention. So I'm gonna have to sell it as is, or part it out. Unfortunately, its worth more in pieces, but does anyone have an idea how much more?

Btw, I'm moving to CA.

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If you don't have time to work on it, you certainly don't have the time for a part out. Sell it to Emilie@gzp. She's always looking for 2G VR-4 projects cars.

Jeremy

Removing parts and putting them in boxes is a lot easier and less time consuming than removing parts, installing new parts, trying to make it work, and then trying to figure out why it's not working. Granted, it's even easier to just sell it as is, but I don't want to give it away for the same amount that I could get by selling just three or four parts. I'll contact Emilie@gzp and see what she says. Thanks for the tip.

I'm taking it you've never parted a car? Parting a car is VERY time consuming and the parts market is very down right now. You're not going to make as much as you think Parting it.

Drag to Comifornia with you, I will run down, and drag it back. You pay fuel? :lmao:

OK no really, good luck!

I sent her a PM with link to this thread. Like Stealthee said, parting one out is a lot of work and takes a considerable amount of time to really make any money.

Jeremy

I just finished parting out my motorcycle and I spent far less time removing parts than I ever did working on it and trying to figure out how to fix it's issues. I'm not saying that it doesn't take much time to part something out, just that it takes more time to take something apart and put it back together and make it run than it does to just take something apart.

Parting a car is a totally different animal than parting a motorcycle just due to sheer size and amount of parts. I have parted 6 or 7 cars over the years. Trust me, if you don't have time to work on the car now, parting is not even close to an option.

I sent you a PM about the car. Let's try to keep this car in one piece :)