Chrome ECU - Front bank stuck rich

So I'm working on getting the idle down and having an issue with the front bank always being rich. Low Trim is stuck at -12.5 and feedback sits at -15. I have 550cc injectors installed and I have the injector size in chrome all the way up to 647cc. Adjusted the VE table in the idle range 0-100 to the below:

0 - 86.7188
25 - 86.7188
50 - 83.5938
75 - 87.5
100 - 89.8438

I bumped the accel enrichment down to 9.5

Rear bank O2 is cycling as it should, front bank sits at .78-.80 and only moves if I give it throttle. Then eventually goes back up. After some time the front O2 feedback goes to 2.5 and just sits there.

I have done a boost leak test and it is all good. all exhaust gaskets where replaced when I did installed the new turbos. All three front injectors are black so it's not a single stuck open injector.

Anyone got a clue as I must be missing something somewhere??

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x82sav1m9z...g_ROM.zip?dl=0

Does not allow d/l for some reason.

Check the plugs to see if actually rich? Has to be an injector, or an O2 sensor issue. Set Chrome to pull off one sensor, and see what it does. Or swap the sensors?

Added a new link.

Checked the front plugs and they are all black so it is rich. So it's the entire front bank not a single injector. O2's are fine, cycled and worked normally before adding the new injectors. I can see them cycle if I give it gas, but once it idles back down the front goes rich.

Was Chrome in there before?

Yep, I ran chrome in the car for a couple months with nothing but the proprietary bits turned off. Car ran great with stock injectors and stock 99 tune.

Front O2 is not cycling no where near like the rear. Even if rich it should bounce (like the rear), and not produce the same number. I am still suspect of the front O2.

IIRC if you set Chrome to read off one O2 it reads off the rear. See if that changes things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CoopKill

Front O2 is not cycling no where near like the rear. Even if rich it should bounce (like the rear), and not produce the same number. I am still suspect of the front O2.

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I think that's because it is just that rich in the front bank. when I give it throttle you see the front O2 move so it's not dead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CoopKill

IIRC if you set Chrome to read off one O2 it reads off the rear. See if that changes things.

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Not sure what that is going to do. If it does read from the rear and the rear is working and cycling fine, what it that going to tell me about the front?

Funny thing is that even with it like this it idles fine, rev's fine and the WB is showing around 14.5 AFR as seen in the logs.

Ok So I disabled "Dual Narrowband Fuel Bank Trim" and checked it with the injectors scaled to 550cc. Front trim is at -25 and not moving. Rear is rich at -15. Bumped the injector scaling to 650 and 750 and the rear is still sitting at -15.

After about 7-8 min of running it just randomly died....

Started it back up and the rear trim is not in the positive between +1-5 and slowly moving back into the negatives. WB reading between 13.5-14 AFR.

After looking at your log again it looks like your front, and rear sensor wires may be swapped on the patch cable.

Front reads rich at idle, the rear very lean. Stoich should be reading +/- .4? on the narrow. If the f/r are reversed the ecu thinks the rear reading is the front, and keeps adding fuel to compensate , and oposite for the front O2.

Might check the pinout for the O2's on the ecu. This is what happened with mine.

http://www.daytona-sensors.com/Bosch_LSU4_Vsense.gif

I turned back on the narrowband fuel trim and disconnected the rear O2 sensor. The rear on evoscan stopped logging so the leads are not swapped.

The sensor itself is probably gummed up with carbon. A taco says the heater in it is bad.

it was a whitish brown color when I pulled it doing the turbo swap. not all black and sooty.

Was talking with Adam on FB and we starting reducing the injector latency with closed loop turned off to try and get the sensor to cycle. After reducing it to a little over half across the entire range the sensor still didn't want to cycle as it should and the rear bank was completely bottomed out. So it looks like the sensor did take a crap out of nowhere. running into town now to get a new one and swap it in.

Installed the new O2 sensor and no change... So it's not the O2 sensor.

How confident in the front injectors are you?

Yeah that is my next guess. Going to swap the front and rear injectors tomorrow to see if the issues moves to the rear bank. I'll run them through my ultra sonic cleaner first to see if they are gummed up. Adam thinks it may be a leaking or slow closing injector. I have a few tricks for cleaning out injectors...LOL

I'll know more tomorrow. For now I'm done in the garage. 7 hours of exhaust fumes, even with the garage door half open, is enough for one day.

Got the front injectors out and none where stuck open or leaking. Pressure tested them up to like 60 psi. Cleaned them out in the ultrasonic cleaner and cycled some cleaner through them. Made no difference...

I thought I found an issue as I noticed when you first start the car the front o2 cycles as it should, but as the idle drops down it climbs back rich and stays there. Found the TPS idle switch was not engaging as it should. Went through and adjusted everything on the throttle body again and got the TPS set as it should be. Still having the same issues.

So now I'm letting the car cool and I'm going to swap the front and rear bank injectors to see if it is indeed an injector issue or if it's something else causing it. Should know here in a hour or two.

I got the front and rear injectors swapped, on start-up everything looked good. Once it got to idle at 750 rpm's the rear started going rich and the front dropped out completely but slowly started cycling. just not very much. I went in and turned on long and short fuel trims and started it back up. Again everything look good and then the rear started going rich and the front lean. But then they started to normalize some and the more i ran the better it got. It still have spouts where the rear goes rich but after a min or two it seems to calm back down. I am seeing the front O2 drop out which I don't know why. You can see in the log it drops to straight zero a bit but then comes back. IDK what the hell is going on there.

So below are the logs and the tune I have set just for idle. I have not even driven the car yet as I need to get idle down first. There is only so long I can idle the car before the fumes are just too much even with the garage door half open. So for the night I'm done working on it. If anyone seems anything out of place in the logs or tune please let me know.

Thanks

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bhuf4si5kq...Rom_2.zip?dl=0

Graphed out the front vs rear O2's against the rpm's. this is a two min excerpt from the log I posted.

Black Line - Rear O2
Pink Line - Front O2
Green line - RPM's

http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/...psu2asrrbu.jpg

Front is cycling as it should. Rear slowly creeps up then drops out, does it again and drops out and stays lean the rest of the time. The drop it RPMS was also something the ECU did and I had to adjust the BISS screw to get it back into normal idle range again. TPS stays at 7.45 the entire time and is never moved. throttle cable is disconnected.

That log is all jacked up.

I can only think of a couple things that could be the issue with the readings, but they do not solve all of the issues.

Going to a zero reading could be wiring, but match that with the constant 0.1**** on the rear says no. ECU?

Odd that the wb is now going lean as it compensates, and the nb are polar opposites f to r. My f/r o2 feedbacks were always close.

You might eliminate an issue with the injectors, and swap the 360's back in to scratch them off the list. If all goes back to normal you have your culprit, if not you can eliminate them out of your diagnostics questions.

Losing ideas here...

Yeah, I'm all sorts of confused with what the hell is going on here. Especially since the car ran fine until I swapped in injectors and turbo's. No wiring was touched.

I agree with swapping in the old 360's and I'll be doing that tomorrow and will update.

I have been reading a lot where people have had all sorts of issues with idle on EVO and these Lucas 550cc Injectors. Seems to be an issue with our ECU compensating for the injector deadtime and pulse width of these injectors.

Swapped the injectors back to the stock 360cc and everything is running fine. Both O2 Cycling as they should, no more rich bank, etc. So I just have to keep the boost down until I can get more fuel.

So now my question is do I send off my 550cc injectors to like Injector Rehab to have them looked at or just ditch them and try to find some other ones??

I'd go for a set of evo 560's instead they are cheap, readily available and proven to work very well with chrome ecu's. Bought my set cleaned and flow matched from the guy on 3SI that has been selling these sets for years.

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Originally Posted by Unlogic

I'd go for a set of evo 560's instead they are cheap, readily available and proven to work very well with chrome ecu's. Bought my set cleaned and flow matched from the guy on 3SI that has been selling these sets for years.

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I saw a bunch of threads in regards to the evo 560's regarding people having issues getting the car to idle properly. I'm guessing it was before Chrome and the ability to adjust deadtime.

Do you have the guys username or a thread you can point me to for the injectors?

I bought mine from this guy:

3000GT/Stealth International Message Center

Unfortunate you had to go through all that you did, but congratz on finding the issue. I'll have to look back at my logs with the DW's and see if they were doing similar at first. (I don't beieve so). I had one hell of a time figuring out the offsets, and finally ditched them at a loss.

I pinged him on the other site to see what he's got. He hasn't been online in a couple months so not sure if busy or not doing it anymore..

Coop - this is not normal so something is going on with them. I had Adam on Facebook for like an hour going over things and messing with the injectory latencies and the one bank would just not cycle. So there is something up with the injector/s on that bank causing the issues. I am glad the 360's are running in it but that means I have to wait again before pushing the new turbos.... :(

I use the pte 1000s great inj.

I bought a set of 1000cc Bosch EV14 high impedance injectors from NZefi.com, best thing I've bought for the car!.

They come with the EV1 connector and spacers so straight fit (apart from deleting the resistor pack), well worth the investment..

Greg, it's probably too late now but I had another thought. In your logs (engine full warm at idle) what IPW value were you seeing?

The code has a minimum IPW value and sometimes guys hit that floor with large injectors on pump gas. You can lower this value in the code (it's a single cell table in the fuel section).

I typically only see this in 1000+cc cars but there's always a first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greg E

Greg, it's probably too late now but I had another thought. In your logs (engine full warm at idle) what IPW value were you seeing?

The code has a minimum IPW value and sometimes guys hit that floor with large injectors on pump gas. You can lower this value in the code (it's a single cell table in the fuel section).

I typically only see this in 1000+cc cars but there's always a first.

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I wasn't logging IPW so no way to tell and I have already pulled the injectors and swapped the 360's back in.

Even if the IPW was off, that would affect all injectors not just a certain bank. Since swapping the front and rears moved the issues to the rear bank it has to be something with the injectors. I think Adam was on track that either one is leaking or is closing slowly and causing all of the issues I'm seeing.

I got in touch with Allen at Evolution Injection and will be sending the injectors off to him to look over and do a flow test and rebuild. Hopefully that will shed some light on what is going on. Cost would be $97 which I'm willing to drop to see if these 550's are salvageable or not before I have to drop cash on getting all new injectors.

Here is a question that always seems to boggle my mind that you may be able to shed light on. So I found that Evoscan is not picking up the Idle Switch properly. It always stays at 0 no matter what. So I set the Idle Switch on the Throttle Body with a Multimeter. Basically just adjusted it until the circuit closed. Now my TPS is old and I do start to get slight continuity when adjusting it before I get full continuity on the multi meter. So I set it so that I get full continuity. Now the issue is that my TPS shows 7.8% when fully closed. I finally got my LCDBC installed and noticed using it that the Idle Switch is triggering a bit before the throttle is all the way closed, but more interesting is that when I went to drive the car, just putting it into gear the idle jumps up and down. Like between 700-1000 rpm's over and over again until I get moving. Once I let off the gas it starts it's up/down again. Now in the past I have found that the ECU does not like the TPS to be below 10% and that is what causes the issues. But why? Why is the ECU so picky about the throttle percentage and why does >10% seem to be the sweet spot?

Your tps is worn out (the idle switch part of it).

I bought a 2nd hand throttlebody where the idle switch showed the same behaviour.

You should be around 14% tps with a correctly working and set up switch.

Iirc Evoscan looks at the wrong bit to see if idle is active on our cars (you have to change where it looks for the idle flag).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KeithMac

Your tps is worn out (the idle switch part of it).

I bought a 2nd hand throttlebody where the idle switch showed the same behaviour.

You should be around 14% tps with a correctly working and set up switch.

Iirc Evoscan looks at the wrong bit to see if idle is active on our cars (you have to change where it looks for the idle flag).

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Yes, IIRC the data field formula needs to be set to x bit 1

http://www.3sgto.org/tuning-engine-e...tml#post229013

Ahh, cool thanks for the info on that. I'll be sure to update mine as it makes it much easier to set it just by staring at the laptop screen...LOL

Yeah for some reason that value is wrong. Don't know why or how that happened.

I thought I corrected it but it maybe still that one of my servers is still handing out the XML where that is wrong or maybe you're just one of the unfortunate guys that got the old file before I updated it.