MOTOR OIL ?WEAR PROTECTION? RANKING LIST | 540RAT - Tech Facts, NOT Myths
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Holy tl;dr. I'll have to come back and see if I can interpret that later
Yeah that shit is way too long to even consider reading. There needs to be a major cliffs done up.
Is that one of those wear bearing tests?
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I pulled that I should just keep using:
And not worry about it being too thin (10W30 vs W30)Quote:
Originally Posted by from article
Oh and a product: Prolong Engine Treatment is a motor oil additive that testing showed significantly improves an oil’s wear protection capability.Quote:
Originally Posted by from article
Reasonable summation, GU.
That captures the nub of things, apart from the guy's bonafides and the results/rankings.
I actually feel pretty good that I've been using Castrol GTX 5w30 (which he ranks #2 out of 133) - however, I'm glad I read enough of it to catch the discussion of weights/viscosities; I was about to do an oil change and switch to 10w40.
I think I'll stick with the 5w30. :)
His viscosity conclusions are a gross oversimplification.
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That's what I normally use. That or 10w30 in the summer.Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Edit: my god! he wrote a f-ing book didn't he? took up half the net :lo5l:
He DID make some concessions re viscosity in race situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest Gump
What's your view, Chris?
The point of running more viscous oil is to keep the film thickness between the crank and bearing shells. High power cars with marginal crankshafts like ours are trying to squeeze that oil out. Once it gets squeezed out the crank can touch the bearing and beat it up.
The higher the oil pressure the harder it is for the oil to get squeezed out. I think of it like a stiffer spring. I don't know if that is technically correct, but ray says the high power cars live longer with more pressure.
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Unless bearings get worn and need a thicker oil to maintain oil pressure, I still don't think I'd go above a 10w30. As far as the additives he recommends, I'm not sure how I feel about his rankings including them with the non additive oils.
Mobil1 VR1 10w30 ranks pretty highly on the list without any additives at #16, but there is no ranking for it with additives. Most of the oils ahead of it are either more expensive on their own, or have the oil additives (which cost about $20 plus shipping) or both. VR1 at $35 for 6 quarts and ranking that highly without any other additives would seem like a pretty good bang for the buck deal. Most of the other oils ahead of it on the list as well are a 0w30 or a 5w30, which is thinner than OEM recommendations already. Throw in how these cars love to squeeze the oil out and have the crank kiss the bearings, and I wouldn't want to run any thinner than a 10w30.
Since you guys started an oil thread...
I'm considering once I go through another change with the Valvoline vr1 20w50 that I may switch to redline 5w-50. I'd just like to do that to get a little more cold flow since I take some fairly short trips. I'm concerned about the wide spread and how many viscosity improvers they must have used, but it seems that the true group IV oils may be different. I'm also concerned that its actual viscosity is even a little thicker than the vr1 20w50 and I already have a ton of oil pressure.
I did see Trevor ran this oil on his very last setup and didn't report any issues. Does anyone have an UOAs on this or other credible information? I don't consider a Timken bearing test to be representative of what actually happens in an engine with a roller valvetrain.
Oil is a bit more complicated than "rub these metal pieces together, and the one that have less friction is the oil you should use". It gets more complicated once you are pushing an engine past it's design HP, like 90% of us. Like it or not, our engines fall under the race category, lol. My engine hated Castrol and Valvoline VR1, among others. It sheared both into water in under 500 miles, then the hot oil pressures dove under 10 psi at idle. Also, Rotella and some others that have a JASO rating would look bad in this test because they have friction modifiers in them required for the JASO SM rating, which I didn't see him making any mention of. The way they work inside a real engine means they don't cause more wear on bearings and such, but are vital for internal clutch systems to work.
I mean, I don't know of any F1 teams putting Prolong into their multimillion dollar engines.
Just read the whole thing, apart from some extensively repeated paragraphs in the article, it was a good read. I won't take it as the end-all be-all for oil testing just because there is so much contradictory information out there for oils but I'll definitely consider the test results when shopping for oils in the future.
Cliffs:
- An oil additive called Prolong Engine Treatment allowed some non-designer brand ordinary oils to rank #1,2,3 out of 133 oils tested.
- Motul 300v 5w30 was the highest rated stand-alone oil (no additives)
- Ordinary Mobil 1 5w30 was the 4th highest rated stand-alone oil above Amsoil, Redline, Rotella-T. (hate reading this as I told myself I would never run Mobil1 again after spinning a bearing with it).
- Another 125+ oils tested, with a lot of "the best ever" oils not doing as good as you would expect them to compared to some ordinary oils that are available locally.
- Thinner oils > thicker oils when considering oil temp, flow, drain-back capabilities. (I wish the entirety of the internet could just decide on thick or thin oils as this is the biggest controversy to me and the more I read about it, the less I know).
- Higher zinc content doesn't = better oil.
How can a spun bearing be attributed to a particular brand of oil? Bearings don't just spin because of oil brand. They can spin from a variety of different reasons, most likely none of which are related directly to the brand. Was the oil broken down (sludge), fuel diluted, or water diluted? Was the oil pump tired? Dented oil pan? Was the engine ran hot previously? Deformed rotating parts? All of these questions are precursors to the real reason bearings spin, oil starvation. Read any article about oil viscosity choice and the decision is made solely on usage. More specifically, anticipated oil temps. Normal street driving really doesn't justify high viscosity oil as this article clearly points out why. Road coarsing where there is a bunch of WOT going on for extended periods of time would be a good reason to raise the hot viscosity number.Quote:
Originally Posted by 99ishVR-4
I thought it was really cool to hear him talk about high viscosity oils causing the filters to bypass when cold because of high pressure. That point should really be ephasized. I never thought about it that way but, it makes sense. Thanks for sharing OP.
Jeff
Yawn.....not this shit again.
Threre is no logic involved for me disliking Mobile 1, it just happened to be the brand I was using when it happened. It was also around the same time Mobil1 was getting alot of bad publicity for not being a ” true synthetic.” So it just left a bad taste in my mouth. This happened back in the days before dented oil pans were discovered to cause spun bearings and people constantly related it to oil brand or weight. Enough off topic about my car history though, back to the oil discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by kywhitelightning
Any mention of oil pump protection on thin oils? (Serious question.)
So thin oils flow better, offer hp increases and keeps the oil cooler....who knew? :cool:
5W30 Mobil 1 looks pretty good. I'm persuading my dad to stop using it and use Rotella instead. Maybe I should reconsider.
Then again, I remember lawdogg did Blackstone analysis and had Rotella be far superior. And you have Ray recommend 50 weight oil.
Also this tidbit:
:(Quote:
Diesel oils rank overall between number 17 and 113. But, if you omit the highest ranked Diesel oil which is FAR, FAR MORE CAPABLE than all the other Diesel oils, the rest only rank between 60 and 111. The poor wear protection performance of all but the one particular top ranked Diesel oil, makes it very clear that in general, Diesel oils are a poor choice for High Performance gas engines.
Hmmm. I have a few questions.
I use Castrol GTX 10w-30, which I did not find on the list. However, the other Castrol GTX oil weights were around 95,000 psi consistently. Which although is not in the "incredible" wear category, is still pretty bad ass when considering cost and their ranking on that list.
I have 6k miles on my engine. I change my oil every 1500 miles max because I have Clevite race main bearings. Clearances are pretty tight, with the main bearing clearances at .0015" and rod bearing clearances at .0018"-.002". Oil pressure is wonderful across the board: around 20+psi at idle, 30 at 1000, 40 at 1500, 58 at 2000, and 76 at 2500.
However, on cold start up, pressure is pretty high. 90-95 psi is pretty normal. Even now with it being 100 degrees outside. When it gets colder (around 30-40 degrees), 100+ psi is not uncommon. I always let the car warm up to at least 120 degrees before moving it and never bring it over 3k until oil pressure reaches normal range.
I've been wanting to switch to 5W-30 for a while to lower the startup pressure. I haven't because I have learned "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
I'm wondering if you guys would recommend the switch to 5w-30, when taking in consideration the hot temps outside, start up pressure, film thickness, etc.
What pressure difference can I expect to see between the two weights at cold start up?
I am also wondering what the pressure difference in the two weights would be when the oil is hot. That has been the primary reason I haven't switched. 10w-30 works just fine. With my luck, I'd switch to 5w-30 and throw rod before I backed out of the driveway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kywhitelightning
As well as oil pump relief valves on various engines.
Bypassing the oil pump to keep from exceeding a designated pressure wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as bypassing the oil filter. Especially since oil pump bypasses just dump the excess back to the pan. Bypassing the filter media in an effort to reduce high pressure could be devastaing over time.
Jeff
Has anybody proved the oil filter bypasses on 15/50w oil?, only thing that causes it to open is the pressure differential between the twk sides.of the filter media, not actual oil pressure..
Quote:
Originally Posted by kywhitelightning
But see... that's the thing. It is worse. I'm not worried about over pressure... I'm worried about under pressure.
Here is the deal. Its oil flow that provides the lubrication. Your pressure gauge isn't measuring oil pressure in the bearing. It measuring it far upstream.
So... if you could imagine, having a higher viscosity oil means you will achieve the critical pressure for the relief valve, sooner.
In essence, your oil pump is providing less mass flow of oil to the bearings.
When you are doubling or tripling the pressure load on the bearings, you are going to want as much oil flow to them as possible. Which means, the proper oil viscosity at the correct operating temperature.
Even if the pump bypasses, it is at an already high pressure in which the only way to maintain that pressure is with continued flow. You are not sacrificing any more flow after the pump bypasses vs before it bypasses. Once bypassed pressure will maintain and not continue to climb. It will not be reduced unless the downstream restriction is removed (bearing failure) or the rpm's are reduced. Not quite sure what you are trying to say but, at the point of bypass the only thing restricting additional flow is the viscosity of the oil which goes back to the age old question; what viscosity oil should I use?
The absolute correct answer to that question is published everywhere including our service manuals and is exactly what you said, base your viscosity off of your anticipated operating temperature range.
Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by kywhitelightning
Yes... You have to match the oil temperature with the viscosity... with the required oil flow in the bearing to float the shaft, all when there is even more pressure being applied to crush the oil film on the power stroke (for modded guys anyway.)
Just remember, oil mass flow is what keeps the crank floating and lubricated. Not oil pressure (measured at the pump regulator.)
Bump.Quote:
Originally Posted by familyMAN
best of luck, I can't even get someone to respond on redline 5w50. No facts in this thread, only conjecture.Quote:
Originally Posted by familyMAN
Yeah, kind of my point:D. Flow and temp are only part of the equation in a high hp, higher than stock redline, possibly different clearance than stock, build. Maybe low viscosity, high zinc oil is great for oil pump gears....maybe it's not....where's jfast when you need him to wiki search for me:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest Gump
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest Gump
Facts? Well... sadly, you probably won't ever get any real data on this. Unless one of us joins an oil pump company or engine manufacture in the lubrication group. Or the community puts together some money and donated engines to have a lab run some tests.
Your question on whether or not 5W-50 is ok. Well... Test it.
Send a sample of your fresh oil to have it analyzed.
Measure your bearing clearances and then go hit some serious dyno time (or 0.5 Mile or 1 mile racing at full tilt.)
Monitor oil temps, keep them consistent if possible.
Then tear down and re measure after 50 passes. See what the measurements show.
Send used oil to get analyzed.
The reason that oil threads all over the internet are never conclusive is because the only info out there is peoples saying... "I've run XXX oil some... its fine." No one has any real evidence nor a well made experiment.
The M5 community has shitstorm threads over it. 5w-30 vs 10w-60 and the link to the bearing failures in those cars. (They wipe bearings... BAD.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by familyMAN
Unless you are worried about corrosion. The only thing I can think of with oil pumps are the stresses on the gears. In that case... I would imagine the cold viscosity has a higher influence on them than anything else.
As far as raising the rev limit? Well... You just completely changed the operating characteristics from the original design of the pump. I would say its all bets are off at 9k revs and higher. Unless someone does some serious testing.
I was at least hoping someone had a UOA done already on it. It isn't like its hard or expensive. Instead we get, "oh I feel great now about running the oil I already did because a timken bearing test proves its good", So, far the vr1 20w50 showed a good UOA, but it was too soon in the engines life to really know. Sending off another one once I accumulate some more miles.Quote:
Originally Posted by VR4Drive92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest Gump
Well, If I switch to it, I will definitely send it off and let you guys know the results of the UOA.
So we are all running completely stock setups on a 3S enthusiasts forum? How many have changed bearing clearances, different weight internal components than stock, higher rev limits....many.Quote:
Originally Posted by VR4Drive92
And directly to my point......A general statement can't be made that low weight oils are better because it will keep more flow to bearings to keep them cool with no statement on the exact components and clearances to the engine build. Oil weight should be chosen for the clearances and intended use of the engine, along with other factors particular to that car.
You also have to factor most oils are going to shear some and I'd rather have a 50 weight shear to a 40 than a 30 sheer even further.
Decided to read this for myself instead of relying on the cliffs posted earlier. Wow, that was tough to stomach. An advertisement for engine additives. I think I'll stick with my VR1 10w30 and 20w50 depending on the weather.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcshooter
Edit: Love his "references" without actually listing the reference! Maybe his testing is accurate, but it reads like a snake oil advertisement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by familyMAN
I'm not assuming people are running stock stuff. Once you change something from the original design intent... Its all on you to take care of any ill effects that arise from that change. Oil pump cavitation... Rod bearing cavitation erosion... et cetera...
However... I would say, that if you are using a 20w-50 or 10w-60 oil. Get those oil temps up.
I wouldn't run a high grade oil in a car that is to just derp around town in and make big power 5 pulls a year.
When doing your research, you may find that sticking with a 5w-20 or 10w-30 with 500-1000 mile oil changes could be better than a standard 3000 mile oil change with a 20w-50 of whatever brand.
Lots of variables to match out and play with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by familyMAN
I agree.
That was my thinking. There was way too much of him talking about why we should trust him and not enough of him explaining why what he did was correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by familyMAN
good read! think i might try out 0w30 in my SBC 383ci mechanical roller setup, as 5w30 is still hitting 80psi on cold start up with a high volume pump.
ill stick with 5w30 in the stealth, but I'm glad castrol is high in his rankings!
edit* the oil biz is big money, so i dont find that his support wishing to remain anonymous, that hard to believe. also he used multiple additives on top of base line tests, so he isn't exactly pushing advertisement for a certain additive company.
given the length and info in the write up, i think he may be on to something that is very beneficial to those willing to think outside the zinc box, but that said, i was pretty thrown off by penz oil being #1...... i thought that stuff was crap