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how's it going guys?
i'm in the process of tearing this motor apart. thus far, i've gotten the heads off, and have been advised to not take the valves or valve springs out, at least not until i take the whole thing to a machine shop.
i'm going to pick up an engine stand shortly, and take the oil pan off, but i'm pretty clueless after that.
i know to label baggies/boxes, as that's what i've done thus far, but i need more advice.
thanks!
_isiah
what do you need advice on? what are you doing?
what are you looking for advice on? so far it looks like you're on the right track - bag & tag everything you take off/out. got any specifics you need pointers on?
it's just thaT i'm about to start with the crank, and i haven't a clue what it even looks like down there. is there anything that i shouldn't be taking off? i dunno, let me get the oil pan off first, and i'll start posting some pictures,
thanks!
_isiah
i'm just going to be rebuilding the engine. possibly to stock specs, possibly not. likely with at least a forged crank.Quote:
Originally Posted by futurevr4man
what do y'all think.. is it reasonable to upgrade rods, and or pistons, and nothing in the head? how about vice versa. i think i'm down to upgrade some of the internals, but i don't think i want to afford nearly all of them..
_isiah
I think stock rods and pistons are a weaker link than the crank. Just saying..Quote:
Originally Posted by shmoo
what are your goals with the build?
If you want some visuals on the engine , take a look at my Build Thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by shmoo
It's in the NA Forced Induction section and it's called Big Single Build. Lots of a good photos on throughout the whole thread.
o really? being that the crank is what it all attaches to, i figured it was the most important. i have a ton of research to do. like what stock bore pistons people are going with? attaching them to stock rods?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ange
reliable, a little more pep in the step, so i can stop considering bolt ons.Quote:
Originally Posted by sketch
i'll check it out man, thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Boost4VR4
_isiah
I'd upgrade the crank before the pistons and rods. A forged crank can take as much abuse as you can throw at it, the stock rods are good to bout 600awtq, and the stock pistons are good to around the 500awtq number on pump. That said, forging the bottom end is better all done in one shot IMO. The block has to be bored for forged pistons, even if stock size (because the forged pistons will expand more than the stock ones) and either way you're going to have to hone. Better to only have to do that stuff once.
Upgrading the heads and cams is nice, but not super necessary (doesn't hurt though) since we're forced induction. You can make quite a bit of power with the stock heads (which already flow pretty well anyhow) and the springs and retainers are good enough for 264 cams if you want to go that route (which is about as far as you'd want to take a daily driver anyhow.) 2k worth of heads is just about enough to forge the bottom end, and by the time you're running enough boost for the upgraded heads to make a difference, you're likely near the limit of what the stock internals will take.
To put it another way: upgraded heads with stock internals is more power, but less room for error with the tune and a lower overhead before you reach the limit. And the opposite is true for forged internals and stock heads, you'd make less power for the money spent, but you've got a greater margin for error and can go much farther before you reach the limit of the parts.
^^^maugh, helpful post.
Isiah, don't worry about upgrading the heads. I would clean them if I were you, and put in new valve stem seals (VSS), but upgrading the heads is expensive and it is money better spent elsewhere (I am assuming your goals are fairly conservative).
Bryan is right about the stock rods and pistons (although the numbers aren't set in stone by any means). If your goal is 500 ponies or less, then dont worry about anything except the crank. The 2 bolt crank is pretty weak, so getting a 4 bolt (forged) crank is a good place to start.
I cant think of anything you can take off from the bottom end that you "shouldn't". I assume you are doing bearings and that's the whole point of this? Here is a small list of some of the essentials that you should replace if you are trying to refresh the engine. I am sure there are more than what I will list:
- valve stem seals
- new piston rings
- main and rod bearings
- head gaskets (MLS only)
- plenum gaskets (upper and lower)\
- oil and water gaskets
- oil pump
- water pump
- oil pickup tube (OEM ONLY)
I am sure you are capable of doing everything. Piston rings and the bearings will be the two hardest parts. Download the manual from 3sx's website and use it as the holy bible. Look for answers there, then search the forums, and if you still can't figure it out, ask questions. If you do things in that order, people are much more apt to help you! Good luck buddy.
To add to the list of parts Nathan has suggested, for a stockish rebuild, have the valve guides checked and replaced if worn. Lot of heads don't have that done and are worn and loose. Amongst a variety of other issues it can wear valve stems quicker.
I've been through 3 sets of heads, and all 3 were worn pretty bad. If you go that route, expect about 5-10 per valve for the machine work plus cost of guides. I had my heads cleaned, checked, guides replaced and vss replaced, valves checked and a valve job done for about 600 locally.
Beyond that, I'd recommend OEM head bolts (he didn't list that) and go OEM on the head gasket as well and oil and water pumps. Getting your tb rebuilt if you haven't already is a good thing to budget for as well.
A stock rebuild with a forged crank and decent tune can handle most bolt on turbos.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
just go OEM on everything. Go through Cherry Hill and you won't break the bank.
^^This and use the 3SGTO code to get additional discountQuote:
Originally Posted by futurevr4man
^^thank you thank you!
unfortunately, i'm having to put this tear down on pause until i find a new place to tear this motor apart.
_isiah
back on the horse, or maybe it's off of the horse.
got back to tearing down this engine yesterday, and this is where i ended up today.
so, yesterday:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/DSC_9025.jpg
got the oil pan off:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/DSC_9030.jpg
then got the oil pick up off, along with the cradle. when my first lesson occurred.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/DSC_9033.jpg
i thought this little sliver was a broken piece.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/DSC_9034.jpg
but, after taking the crank out, i found another one, and then got to looking and found two more.
are these just placed on the sides of the cradle? on the inboard braces where it attaches to the block?
then, kept a ripping and found this:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/DSC_9041.jpg
went back and looked at the cradle to find that the other rainbows (on the cradle) actually had this piece, so i guess this one just didn't feel like coming out with the cradle.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/DSC_9040.jpg
_isiah
when i found a couple more slivers and decided that they weren't broken pieces, but just strange pieces. again, do these just get set on the cradle, or crank on the inboard aparati?
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/DSC_9042.jpg
then, i kept a romping to find this:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/DSC_9043.jpg
i think i'll start eating pizza and drinking coke while working on my engine and watching trains go by..
then, i started pushing pistons out.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/DSC_9045.jpg
then crank out, and that's pretty much when i just bull shat for the rest of the night.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/DSC_9062.jpg
and i ended up finding more soda, possibly beer can remnants on another rod or two. i guess they just didn't feel right about the clearance?.. or is this standard procedure?
**and, i know i'll either be buying another crank, or getting this one loved on. i can feel scores in many of the (journals?)
and, where does this little half a pie piece go?
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/DSC_9048.jpg
i found it upon removing the oil pump housing, or whatever that thing at the crank pulley end of the block is.
rog, let me know what you think, and what's my next step? i'm thinking take the block, crank, pistons, and likely heads to a machine shop to hear their opinion. or maybe i'll just buy a running engine. what do you think my cost will be to get this thing back together correctly (to stock spec most likely, unless i have a couple bad pistons at which point, i may upgrade something.) and i'll also do a fresh 120k
thanks for reading, opinions, and help in texas are very welcome.
_isiah
Adding strips of coke cans isn't a standard procedure to fix clearances I'm afraid. Those half moon things that you pulled out that you don't recognize are thrust washers, they are set against the crank around the middle of the block but can't recall off hand. You'll see them in the factory service manual when you look at it.
Your crank looks pretty well fragged and will likely need replacing. You may be able to have it turned at the machine shop, but I don't really trust turned cranks for anything other than stock power levels.
The little half pie piece in your last post looks like the woodruff key that goes into the crank shaft snout where the crank cog rests, there's a little indentation there for it.
If you're serious about rebuilding this, take the block, rods and pistons to the machine shop as well as the heads.
Take block, rods, pistons, (new) crank and heads to the machine shop. Minimum is get the block honed and get all the parts hot tanked/cleaned. If you decide to go forged internals, you will likely need more machine work than that. Get the VSS replaced in the heads at a minimum, you may want a valve job as well pending mileage and perhaps even the valve guides. If you have the time, get the casting marks removed from the heads before hand as it's basically free hp you'll pick up and can be done with a dremel and cartridge rolls. For just hot tanking and honing, it'll likely be around $100-150. For VSS, valve job and/or valve guides, you're looking at anywhere from $200-500 depending how much you get done. If you have them actually assemble the short block, your costs will be higher but I can't say for sure how much higher.
Cost of a new forged crank is going to be at least $300, your machine shop costs will likely be between $300-600, new bearings are $100, 120k is somewhere around 600-650 as I recall. You'll also need new OEM engine gasket kit which is 420, plus new cam cap gaskets ($45) and new OEM head bolts ($100).
On top of those, you will likely want to replace your oil cooler and at least get your turbos rebuilt (or upgraded) as it looks like those journals are pretty shot and you may have had some debris bouncing around. You're pretty much looking at about $2000ish to rebuild the actual engine if only your crank is damaged. You can get a running engine for that, but factor in what it's going to cost to do a 120k on that as well when you're comparing prices unless they can prove that maintenance was recently done. By the time you've rebuild the engine and replaced the oil cooler and turbos, you're probably looking at close to 3k but you'd know you have an engine and stuff that's essentially brand new.
If you end up wanting to forge the internals, seriously just do it all in one shot IMO. If you're not in a rush, you can do all this pretty economically though if you snag deals.
Isiah, download the factory manual off 3SX's website. You WILL need it.
Wow I've heard of old timers shimming stuff like that during model t times, but never seen it before. That's about the most shady thing you can do.
Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Tapatalk
Quote:
Originally Posted by anyonebutme
i've got the service manual. volumes one and two, not sure if there are more. it's the first picture in my last post. is that the manual you're speaking of?
yeah, pretty awesome, i chalked it up to shotty mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest Gump
and, i had someone on the other board tell me that was a non turbo block. anyway i can tell? i'll look though my manual tomorrow at the office.
thanks
_isiah
Nothing wrong with turned cranks as far as I (and Ray Pampena) am concerned. Every 6G72 3.5 stroker he has built was with a 3.5 Diamante crankshaft turned to stock journal 6G72 pin diameter. People will complain about the loss of nitriding - which is just a SURFACE hardener and has nothing to do with the ability of the crank to withstand stress. You can't honestly believe that 49.75mm vs 50mm will make a difference in strength - it's only a .5% difference. The reason I bring this up is because a crankshaft for these things costs a *lot* of money.
As long as your machinist can maintain out-of-round less than 0.003 mm, and taper of less than .005 mm and you end up with an oil clearance of 0.020 - 0.050 mm. Also, ensure that the balls at the end of the journals (you will see them on the crankshaft) that are used to plug the line bored oil holes are drilled out and replaced with a tapped hex cap nut. These act like sludge traps. Either you can do it yourself by filing them flat, using a center punch, then drilling them out, or by having your machinist do it for you. If you intend to put the engine back together yourself, I have some tips for that as well, and can more or less walk you through the process. Let me know.
EDIT: That is, indeed, a N/A block. You can tell by the lack of braces on the main girdle. In addition, if you look into the block you won't find any oil squirters.
EDIT 2: Those slivers you pulled out are the thrust washers. They maintain an oil clearance between the crankshaft and the block laterally and prevent it from moving in and out. They're annoying to install, at best, and the first time I did it many years ago, I ended up crushing one. But yes, they just sit in there (that's what makes them hard to install - they're going to want to fall)
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/06/ypyzu2ep.jpg
TT girdle. Note the smaller braces alongside and how the girdle has a small bit cut out for access to the bolt.
As far as turning the crank Memphetic, if you have a good machine shop (like Ray does) its not a big deal. If you don't have one or don't know yet if yours is good, that's a horse of a different color IMO. I personally have spent several months looking for a machine shop to do the machining for my forged motor that is going to do it the way that I want it (ie. Clearances shouldn't be at .035 and piston to wall clearance of five thou is madness.)
Shmoo ask local 3S owners to see if there's a local shop that they use or recommend.
damn, i'm surprised that no one pointed that out earlier. maybe i didn't point out that i thought it was a tt block. so, what do you think? this engine is supposed to be for my car, and someone on here posted that it'd probably be around two grand to get that engine back up and running perfectly. since i just want a stock tt engine, i'd be better off just finding a stock engine somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphetic
and, it's not like i'm gonna throw this engine away, so i'll probably try to rebuild it at some point, but for now, it's just a pile of extra parts.
to be clear: i should not attempt to put these na internals in my car? or i should and just change out the pistons/rods and cradle
there aren't really any local owners, but texas is Huge, so i'm sure there's something within an eight hour drive.Quote:
Originally Posted by sergechronos
thanks for the helps y'all. i have a lot to understand..
_isiah
NA internals for a TT build is fine...For stock turbos and stock boost levels. They don't take kindly to much more than that. It's not as simple as changing out the pistons, rods and cradle though. To use a TT cradle, you'd need a TT block.
You may want to check your heads and make sure that you've actually got turbo heads and cams, could be that the original engine was blown and the original owner just swapped an NA long block in there.
I'm selling that block pictured which has already been tanked, honed and new piston rings for 450 shipped if you end up just needing the block and internals. With a forged crank in there, the two bolt engine and internals are good for most bolt on turbos. I've got a forged crank at a local shop that has a reputation for good (if slow) work that needs turning. Could basically rebuild the shortblock for 300 plus cost of new bearings, machine work to turn the crank and cost of shipping. Probably end up somewhere in the $700-800ish range.
these are also NA (10:1 compression ratio) pistons.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/DSC_9045.jpg
compare to turbo (8:1 compression ratio) pistons here:
http://www.wrenchjockey.com/Images/4.../engine020.jpg
http://www.3sx.com/store/catalog/pis...3mm-07-500.jpg
well, i've already got 13t turbos. , so, you're telling me that for 800ish, i can have a two bolt that's all together from you? what was the 450 shipped for? i'll pm you.Quote:
Originally Posted by sergechronos
uhhhhhhh, something about newts, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by sketch
_isiah
alrighty,
so..
how can i tell the difference between the turbo heads and the non turbo heads. my service manual said that one difference is something about when the exhaust valve opens, or something..
and, they came with the same cam angle sensor. like the motor i just tore apart has the same sensor as the engine that is in my car, well they look the same.
what the hell should i do? i just want a stock build.
i'm not trying to cut corners, i just want to know the most cost efficient way to build this thing. to handle the 13t's that i already have.
i'm getting the vibe from serge that i shouldn't just throw tt pistons in there.
it seems like i should just be looking for an engine that's ready to drop in, well minus the accessories.
if***..
i get just a tt block that's complete. as in pistons and the surround, will i be able to use the heads that i pulled off of this block?
my number is 575 441 5701 shoot me a text or call whenever, i'll be sitting in the storage unit for a while, well until monday night.
_isiah
For a stock build (er..rebuild) finding a complete OEM long block that has had 60k/120kservice recently done is probably your best bet for doing it reasonably. Having one built is expensive, and not something I'd do again for my personal car outside of building forged. If you can find a long block even if it hasn't had the 60k or 120k done for say a thousand bucks with less than 120k, figure bout 200-300 in shipping costs and spend about a 700-800ish to do the 60k, oil pump and bearings, you should be pretty well set. If possible, replacing the VSS while you're at it (which is doable with just a $50 tool and a compressor) and you've basically done everything that should be done for a long while.Quote:
Originally Posted by shmoo
While you COULD just put TT pistons there, I'd be leery of not having those extra girdle stays to help keep the girdle in place. If you got a complete TT short block (pistons, rods, crank) you can use your heads off of that block either way, NA heads aren't quite as efficient but with forced induction that doesn't make as much difference as you think unless you're chasing the bleeding edge.
You do know a 13T build is not exactly stock right? You'll have to make your own feed and return lines and do some grinding of the front motor mount to make them fit.
I believe the 13t's were the ones he had in there in the first place.
i've had 13t's for a couple years now. i didn't modify any oil or coolant lines, nor cut any engine or transmission mounts to install them. i think the only thing i did was cut up a few ic pipes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimvr4
roaug.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoopKill
_isiah
so, at this second, i'm thinking i want to find a complete block and heads that are known to be in reasonable shape, and either send them off to ray, or depending on if the block is healthy with good compression, maybe just send the heads to ray, then 60/120k
Carry on :)Quote:
Originally Posted by shmoo
Why would you need to send the heads to Ray?
If the block is in good shape with good compression numbers, then replacing bearings and all timing components would be as far as I'd want to go. Opening a long block adds a minimum of $200 onto your costs for new HGs and head bolts. Any issue with valves could be found with a leakdown tester
I have a good 1g shorty if you need to buy a block. (I am also in texas :P)
for one, i verified that all of my parts are for a non turbo application. i'd rather use all components that were meant to be on a tt engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by sergechronos
*i feel like i should send the heads off to be reconditioned if i get a set that was just pulled off of a block.
if i were to buy your block from you, it wouldn't come with heads, yes? and if you did manage to snaggle a set, they would need to be recondition, yes?
y, i'll shoot you a pm.Quote:
Originally Posted by FeaRpb
_isiah
You wouldn't need to send the heads to Ray to get them done. IF you were to send them anywhere, I'd send them to Dynamic Racing. But for what we're talking about, any decent machine shop should be able to do what you would need to recondition a set of heads: a 5-angle valve job and new VSS, check the guides out and see if they need to be replaced. Cost of a valve job is only around 300-400 bucks usually, VSS wouldn't be much more since it's all apart. Valve guides are where it gets expensive (usually expect between 5-10 per valve for the machining, plus cost of guides.)
I had a set of heads get all that done, came out to 575 with me supplying the parts. Shipping them off to Ray would just add another $100 onto the cost most likely to get it shipped each way.
^^damn this.
Yeah, heads are expensive business. The 24 guides cost me $10 each for the machining, cost like $200 for the guides. The VSS were viton, cost me about $75 for the set IIRC and they charged 25 to install them. The 5 angle valve job was 175 a head including disassembly, cleaning, machine work and reassembly and I provided them with extra valves so they could choose the best 24. I smoothed out casting marks in the runners on mine since they were getting cleaned anyhow. Going beyond that I wouldn't trust anyone but DR to do it.