Bitching about a 4g in a 3000GT

Yep, I did that...........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMpm9ViWcKg

4g64 stock shortblock. 4g63 head, 14b lol. AEM series 2. Custom mounts of course and some other tricks to make it happen. Moving into a new house this summer. Fall will bring a proper build with a long rod setup and a bigger turbo.

Everything 6g related is for sale. Tons of aftermarket and stock parts.

Wheels are also new. Double stagger, NSX style. 18x8 +20 (+5mm spacer, +15 effective) up front. 19x9.5 (+40) in rear. (yes, tire heights match.)

You put a smaller engine in a heavy car... I appreciate that you made it work, but this is frankly stupid. It just makes zero sense, why would you want a smaller displacement engine with less torque in a heavy car. People swap 6Gs into DSMs not DSM engines into a 3s for a reason. Again, cool that you did it...but what in the actual fuck man?

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Originally Posted by AudibleSilence

You put a smaller engine in a heavy car... I appreciate that you made it work, but this is frankly stupid. It just makes zero sense, why would you want a smaller displacement engine with less torque in a heavy car. People swap 6Gs into DSMs not DSM engines into a 3s for a reason. Again, cool that you did it...but what in the actual fuck man?

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Read the thread. The answers to your questions have already been answered.

My questions were rhetorical. I already made up my mind that this was dumb. No point in trying to see the point in putting a 4G in a 3/s. It's backwards.

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Originally Posted by AudibleSilence

You put a smaller engine in a heavy car... I appreciate that you made it work, but this is frankly stupid. It just makes zero sense, why would you want a smaller displacement engine with less torque in a heavy car. People swap 6Gs into DSMs not DSM engines into a 3s for a reason. Again, cool that you did it...but what in the actual fuck man?

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Originally Posted by AudibleSilence

My questions were rhetorical. I already made up my mind that this was dumb. No point in trying to see the point in putting a 4G in a 3/s. It's backwards.

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I think that "because I can" is a legitimate answer to questions like these. I can see arguing against someone who is asking the question (in the manner of "HOWCANIMAKEMY3SRWDTROLOLOL"), but that's not the case here. If you don't like it, I suggest moving on to another thread as posts like these add no value to the thread.

Like Jeremy already said, the style for this post is awesome. Not "what do you people think" - just "HEYIALREADYDIDIT". works even better with the question mark in the post subject :lol:

Hope to see more on this as it's really neat; also refreshing to see someone trying something new.

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Originally Posted by sketch

I think that "because I can" is a legitimate answer to questions like these. I can see arguing against someone who is asking the question (in the manner of "HOWCANIMAKEMY3SRWDTROLOLOL"), but that's not the case here. If you don't like it, I suggest moving on to another thread as posts like these add no value to the thread.

Like Jeremy already said, the style for this post is awesome. Not "what do you people think" - just "HEYIALREADYDIDIT". works even better with the question mark in the post subject :lol:

Hope to see more on this as it's really neat; also refreshing to see someone trying something new.

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Originally Posted by sketch

If you don't like it, I suggest moving on to another thread as posts like these add no value to the thread.

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...f/gifs/abr.gif

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Originally Posted by AudibleSilence

My questions were rhetorical. I already made up my mind that this was dumb. No point in trying to see the point in putting a 4G in a 3/s. It's backwards.

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Heavy? It's not hard to get a 3s to the same weight as an evo 3300-3400 lbs. they seem to do very well with an even smaller engine.

I guess you don't remember all the Japanese supra race cars ditching the mighty 2jz for the 2.0 3sgte?

I'm also willing to bet a 2.4 auto 3s with a decent turbo on it will smoke anything in your stable.

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Originally Posted by AudibleSilence

My questions were rhetorical. I already made up my mind that this was dumb. No point in trying to see the point in putting a 4G in a 3/s. It's backwards.

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Then debate his reasons for installing it instead of insulting him for doing it.

There's a difference between a technical debate and a rhetorical one.

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Originally Posted by donniekak

Heavy? It's not hard to get a 3s to the same weight as an evo 3300-3400 lbs. they seem to do very well with an even smaller engine.

I guess you don't remember all the Japanese supra race cars ditching the mighty 2jz for the 2.0 3sgte?

I'm also willing to bet a 2.4 auto 3s with a decent turbo on it will smoke anything in your stable.

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He owns an 08 C6 and he wants to trade it for an R8. Hope you brought boost. :)

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Originally Posted by IPD

He owns an 08 C6 and he wants to trade it for an R8. Hope you brought boost. :)

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He better bring boost. Only race I've lost in my last talon was a stroked gsxr1000. I've destroyed zo6 c6's with a 16g.

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Originally Posted by IPD

He owns an 08 C6 and he wants to trade it for an R8. Hope you brought boost. :)

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A 'bolt-on' FP turbo should have no problem devouring an R8. I think he wants to get an HX40 though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcV9WFqsNzA

You guys are not seriously unaware of the a$$ kicking that the 4g can put out are ya?? 4g >6g anyday of the week for me..

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Originally Posted by donniekak

Heavy? It's not hard to get a 3s to the same weight as an evo 3300-3400 lbs. they seem to do very well with an even smaller engine.

I guess you don't remember all the Japanese supra race cars ditching the mighty 2jz for the 2.0 3sgte?

I'm also willing to bet a 2.4 auto 3s with a decent turbo on it will smoke anything in your stable.

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The only Evo that I know of that weighs 3300-3400lbs is the X...which is the worst Evo for Drag ever. Most of my friend's Evos with CF trunk and hood are at around 3,200lbs or less.

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Originally Posted by donniekak

He better bring boost. Only race I've lost in my last talon was a stroked gsxr1000. I've destroyed zo6 c6's with a 16g.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAryFIuRxmQ

N/A Zs are slow.

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Originally Posted by NOMIEZVR4

You guys are not seriously unaware of the a$$ kicking that the 4g can put out are ya?? 4g >6g anyday of the week for me..

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Ass kicking in a sub 3000lbs or even sub 2000lbs car. Let see how much ass it can kick in a 3500lbs car.

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Originally Posted by mehrshadvr4

Ass kicking in a sub 3000lbs or even sub 2000lbs car. Let see how much ass it can kick in a 3500lbs car.

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Am I mistaken or is the EVO X 3500 pounds? I don't know how you define ass kicking, but I don't think most people would judge them to be a slow pig.

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Originally Posted by Forest Gump

Am I mistaken or is the EVO X 3500 pounds? I don't know how you define ass kicking, but I don't think most people would judge them to be a slow pig.

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This and they are an insult to the name actually.

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Originally Posted by AudibleSilence

This and they are an insult to the name actually.

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The R34 GTR is nearly 3500 with a 2.6, I guess it is an insult to cars as well by your standards.

No one said it'll be slow. it's still a 600hp car, but 4g has power potential limit over 6g. The only advantage 4g has over 6g is it's cheaper to make power and much more aftermarket support.

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Originally Posted by mehrshadvr4

No one said it'll be slow. it's still a 600hp car, but 4g has power potential limit over 6g. The only advantage 4g has over 6g is it's cheaper to make power and much more aftermarket support.

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That is exactly why this was done. I don't see where the OP said the 6G engines were turds or anything. I don't know why you guys are arguing about it. Create a build thread for what you've been doing, more variety is better for everyone. We can't all build billet DR setups or T3/T4 setups.

But the question is do you think a 3500lbs 600hp 6g would be faster or a 3500lbs 600hp 4g car with same trans? He already had everything for a 600-700hp car.All he needed was a built engine.

I completely understand why he's doing it. No issue with that at all. Seems like this is purpose built for drags, and that's fine--I'm sure with the car gutted it will run like stink on a pig.

That said, I don't think it's a good option for those who want to tool around town in a car with serious power on mild boost (pure pump, etc). For me personally, I want relatively high HP on pure pump, and 2.4L or whatever just isn't going to deliver that; the strong suit of the 4G motor is how easily and cheaply you can boost it to almost 40 PSI. Again, great for drags--not so much around town.

Let's just celebrate this for what it is; the polar opposite of the spectrum from the guys who want 3.5L 600AWHP on pure pump.

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Originally Posted by Forest Gump

The R34 GTR is nearly 3500 with a 2.6, I guess it is an insult to cars as well by your standards.

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1) You don't know what my standards are...so don't speak as if you do.
2) The R34 GT-R is a big girl, but she also had one of the most sophisticated AWD systems ever put into a production car to make up for it. This car doesn't. How you put the power down is just as important as how and when you make it.
3) We could compare torque curves in the RB20 vs. the 4G for shits and giggles. No...wait...I don't actually care enough to.

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Originally Posted by Forest Gump

That is exactly why this was done. I don't see where the OP said the 6G engines were turds or anything. I don't know why you guys are arguing about it. Create a build thread for what you've been doing, more variety is better for everyone. We can't all build billet DR setups or T3/T4 setups.

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No, but there's a reason so many people do... No one said he said the 6G engine was crap, if anything these DSM fanbois have been the ones saying that. I and a few others just think this doesn't make sense from a pure performance aspect.

It's a smaller engine with a less favorable torque curve in a heavier car than what it was built for. From a pure "Wow he did it" point of view that's pretty cool! From a "I wanna go fast point of view" no...no this is actually the reverse of what you should do.

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Originally Posted by mehrshadvr4

But the question is do you think a 3500lbs 600hp 6g would be faster or a 3500lbs 600hp 4g car with same trans? He already had everything for a 600-700hp car.All he needed was a built engine.

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600hp in a 3500lb car...is slow. I'm easily over 650whp and over 700wtq in a 3200lb car and I consider that slow. Cars are coming with 500-600hp from the factory these days. 600 just isn't a lot anymore.

I don't understand. Everybody with the better ideas should buy everything, and fab up their own idea like Eric did. Everybody doesn't want to bolt some dr turbos to a pampena block. Some people like to create their own vision, instead of borrowing another's.

Building a car starts with a goal. And for a high 9 low 10 car that's cost effective, and already road mapped out by dozens of people at least, an auto 4g setup is a good idea. A 4g probably wouldn't like the getrag ratios in a heavy car. But, for a lighter car, with an automatic trans that takes 9000+ Rpms to hit 9's it's a very good idea. 6g72's don't like high rpms, and running one out near 10k to stay off a rev limiter through the traps would be very scary.

I'm willing to bet no one complaining about this build has actually raced with a w4a33 transmission. It takes serious rpms to go fast. Also, torque converter choice is everything. If the turbo doesn't spool until 4000+ rpms, just get a converter that flashes to 4000 rpms. In a well setup turbo auto car, there is no reason to ever be out of boost when racing.

Everyone is jumping on this being about being fast. It doesnt have to be fast, it doesnt have to be practical, its about having fun. Just doing something different and having fun doing it. People are always saying there going to do stupid stuff to there base model 3S, but the will NEVER actually do ANYTHING. Personally, I love it when someone does something, anything, just dont go around talking.

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Originally Posted by CoreyB

Everyone is jumping on this being about being fast. It doesnt have to be fast, it doesnt have to be practical, its about having fun. Just doing something different and having fun doing it. People are always saying there going to do stupid stuff to there base model 3S, but the will NEVER actually do ANYTHING. Personally, I love it when someone does something, anything, just dont go around talking.

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I don't think a heavy car with 100hp 150ftlbs of tq will be much fun. lol When the turbos come online the story hopefully will be different.

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Originally Posted by donniekak

I don't understand. Everybody with the better ideas should buy everything, and fab up their own idea like Eric did. Everybody doesn't want to bolt some dr turbos to a pampena block. Some people like to create their own vision, instead of borrowing another's.

Building a car starts with a goal. And for a high 9 low 10 car that's cost effective, and already road mapped out by dozens of people at least, an auto 4g setup is a good idea. A 4g probably wouldn't like the getrag ratios in a heavy car. But, for a lighter car, with an automatic trans that takes 9000+ Rpms to hit 9's it's a very good idea. 6g72's don't like high rpms, and running one out near 10k to stay off a rev limiter through the traps would be very scary.

I'm willing to bet no one complaining about this build has actually raced with a w4a33 transmission. It takes serious rpms to go fast. Also, torque converter choice is everything. If the turbo doesn't spool until 4000+ rpms, just get a converter that flashes to 4000 rpms. In a well setup turbo auto car, there is no reason to ever be out of boost when racing.

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6g likes to rev to 9000rpm. It has shorter stroke than 4g, but reving that high without proper damper will kill any engine. You just need a proper tools to rev high. I mean how much a 700hp 300gt would trap anyway? Maybe in high 130s or high 40s which shouldn't take 9000rpm with atx to get there. I'll be very impressed if this car run 9s. It would suck for so many 3/s people with more money in to it .lol

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Originally Posted by CoreyB

Everyone is jumping on this being about being fast. It doesnt have to be fast, it doesnt have to be practical, its about having fun. Just doing something different and having fun doing it. People are always saying there going to do stupid stuff to there base model 3S, but the will NEVER actually do ANYTHING. Personally, I love it when someone does something, anything, just dont go around talking.

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Correct me if I am wrong but..didn't he say he was building this in part for drag?

http://img.pandawhale.com/88611-beat...uth-P-ZqEc.gif

let's let this thread get back on course with what OP wants to do with it; people who want to discuss how much they dislike it should make a new thread or take it to private messaging so as to not pollute this thread

and to clarify/answer the question, OP never said drag, he said "toy"

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Originally Posted by AudibleSilence

Correct me if I am wrong but..didn't he say he was building this in part for drag?

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Originally Posted by familyMAN

I didn't jump into (and complete) a full on engine/trans swap without doing a little homework. I'm a member on tuners and link. I have consulted with donniekak on numerous occasions (as well as members running deep into the 9's through dsm forums). Also been in donnie's FP red talon in both 2.0 and 2.3. Manual and auto. Balance shaft deleted.

This is not a DD. It's a toy. My toy, and I am building it to be exactly what I want. DSM heart. 1G VR4 looks and amenities.

Seriously, who would go through the trouble of sourcing everything necessary for a full engine swap, research, measure, research, measure, research, measure, cut/weld, wire and actually successfully start it up without thinking about how it will perform for it's intended use????

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I didnt mean fun to drive specifically, its the project, the build, the challenge that is fun.

My car with 245/45/17 tires took almost 8500 rpms to do 130.

The important issue here, like some are bringing up, is that Eric had an idea and implemented it. How many hype threads are there? This is a reverse hype thread, and people still bitch. I work on awd turbo mitsus all the time, and my hat goes off to Eric for doing something very different. If it doesn't work right, and he doesn't like it for some odd reason, I'm sure he'll have a built 6g72 back in there before most people in this thread change their oil.

Some of us love doing this car thing.

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Originally Posted by donniekak

I don't understand. Everybody with the better ideas should buy everything, and fab up their own idea like Eric did. Everybody doesn't want to bolt some dr turbos to a pampena block. Some people like to create their own vision, instead of borrowing another's.

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Sooooo...everyone using the Stroker/Billet road map is just borrowing someone else's vision but:

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Originally Posted by donniekak

Building a car starts with a goal. And for a high 9 low 10 car that's cost effective, and already road mapped out by dozens of people at least, an auto 4g setup is a good idea.

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Swapping in a 4G that has been "road mapped out by dozens" is innovation... Got it.

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Originally Posted by donniekak

A 4g probably wouldn't like the getrag ratios in a heavy car. But, for a lighter car, with an automatic trans that takes 9000+ Rpms to hit 9's it's a very good idea. 6g72's don't like high rpms, and running one out near 10k to stay off a rev limiter through the traps would be very scary.

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You don't have to spin up a larger engine that high because it makes more torque/power sooner/more efficiently. 6G72's don't NEED high RPM to make good power. Even if you wanted to rev it that high for some reason you can always work the heads and change the valve train to suit your needs.

I'm confused on your comment about the trans and ratios. The DSM AWD T/AWD ATX 3s trannies are nearly identical....

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Originally Posted by sketch

let's let this thread get back on course with what OP wants to do with it; people who want to discuss how much they dislike it should make a new thread or take it to private messaging so as to not pollute this thread

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People can disagree all they like. I suggest you use the ignore feature if you don't like what people are saying. Either way, stop whining.

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Originally Posted by sketch

and to clarify/answer the question, OP never said drag, he said "toy"

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Ahhh yes, I reread and he said toy, someone else said drag car.

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Originally Posted by donniekak

I'm willing to bet no one complaining about this build has actually raced with a w4a33 transmission.

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It's interesting that the "Internet mechanics" of the forum are the only ones insulting and complaining about this swap.

Fee free to continue bitching here.

Thread split...not a bad idea!

Jeremy

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Originally Posted by Alan92RTTT

Feel free to continue bitching here.

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FTFY :boxing:

LOL, in for the 3rd thread "Bitching about splitting the thread, thread"

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Originally Posted by Toni

LOL, in for the 3rd thread "Bitching about splitting the thread, thread"

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That's already started in the BAWC chat. Audible is most displeased by the moderating decisions.

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Originally Posted by CoreyB

FTFY :boxing:

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No, this is a fee free bitching thread. In the future, we're going to start charging a quarter per shitpost.

Jeremy

yaaayyy no fees!

Joining the fun....some points of clarification.
My car doesn't weigh 3500 lbs, but close. Won't be gutted but I have lightweight parts to install yet. Not a drag car. It's a toy; a really big Lego set to build, break and rebuild.

It's becoming a fun hobby for my sons 10 & 2. 2 yr old wants to wrench and 10 yr old is my road trip buddy to get parts. We drove 5 hrs each way for long block in a day and 13hrs each way for trans one weekend and loved every minute of it.

There are a few that aren't understanding the discussion on Autos and rpms....with high power you shouldn't shift into OD under power. If you want to go 130mph you need to do it in 3rd. The converter is always slipping slightly so you lose some rpm to the converter. 130 with a tight converter may take 7500 and 8k (Making up the numbers) with a loose one (4g or 6g doesn't matter because ratios are the same). If you drag race and want to trap 140 you have to have the ability to rev to whatever rpm it takes to AND make the power up there.

The auto is fun on backroads also with the push button shifting I have setup with the horn buttons. If your peak tq is 5k and you make power to 8500-9k it's a wide range to play with in the curves as well.

This probably isn't a swap for the masses but I did it for me because I think I will love it. If I don't, oh well. There are full jdm engine/trans setups available all day to build from again.

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Originally Posted by Greg E

That's already started in the BAWC chat. Audible is most displeased by the moderating decisions.

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Alan is free to do what he wants..it's his forum. I am not displeased with moderation when it is fair. To only keep the "Cool build bro!" posts and kill any post about the performance (positives and negatives) is basically bullshit. But oh well. This platform has been dying for a while, I think the fact that someone made a 3s into a DSM is the final nail in the coffin.

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Originally Posted by familyMAN

Joining the fun....some points of clarification.
My car doesn't weigh 3500 lbs, but close. Won't be gutted but I have lightweight parts to install yet. Not a drag car. It's a toy; a really big Lego set to build, break and rebuild.

It's becoming a fun hobby for my sons 10 & 2. 2 yr old wants to wrench and 10 yr old is my road trip buddy to get parts. We drove 5 hrs each way for long block in a day and 13hrs each way for trans one weekend and loved every minute of it.

There are a few that aren't understanding the discussion on Autos and rpms....with high power you shouldn't shift into OD under power. If you want to go 130mph you need to do it in 3rd. The converter is always slipping slightly so you lose some rpm to the converter. 130 with a tight converter may take 7500 and 8k (Making up the numbers) with a loose one (4g or 6g doesn't matter because ratios are the same). If you drag race and want to trap 140 you have to have the ability to rev to whatever rpm it takes to AND make the power up there.

The auto is fun on backroads also with the push button shifting I have setup with the horn buttons. If your peak tq is 5k and you make power to 8500-9k it's a wide range to play with in the curves as well.

This probably isn't a swap for the masses but I did it for me because I think I will love it. If I don't, oh well. There are full jdm engine/trans setups available all day to build from again.

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I didn't fail to understand the RPM/Trans post, I didn't get why he thought he needed to rev a 6G that high to make power. If he was talking about the 4G then sure, it needs to rev that high to make equivalent power. Personally my car shifts into 4th and 5th on a flat out run and I cringe every time. It went into 5th at 160...I puckered.

Like I said man, I think it's a cool swap but I think in terms of performance it's going to be meh.