Let's Talk Timing Maps

So, now that a large amount of owners have timing control via the Chrome ECU, I'm interested to see what everyone's running.

In anticipation of receiving and installing my Chrome ECU I played around with the factory map a little bit. Added a little bit in some areas, and took some away in others. Basically tried to smooth it out a little bit. Still getting used to the ROM map parameters, in comparison to AEM :lol: Should be a good enough starting point for my basic TD04 setup.

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps6709c5f6.png

Here is mine..just added 2 degrees in the 5500 range otherwise stock. I'm running e85 however and a hi 11's low 12 AFR
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps665cb479.png

Hrmmm, okay. I'll play. How about we post them 3-D too! Possibly? When I get a min I'll grab a couple off my EMS lappy.

How do we post the map in 3d from ecuflash?

Just click the "View" tab. This graph is so small however I found it useless. Don't know if you can enlarge it or not...

yeah..i saw that...looked pretty useless

It is. I found it best to export the data into Excel and work on it there. In AEM the graph was just about all I used. Set your timing where you want it to be under WOT, then switch to graph and just smooth out everything else. Doesn't matter what the value is as long as it's smooth.

Another thing I noticed initially was that the ROM factory map was very jagged. This IMO is decieving because in comparison to the typical AEM, there are fewer RPM break points, so it actually helps the smoothing a lot.

Different engine/turbo/boost configs will certainly affect how these timing charts look. Also, if you use a gm sensor with a translator, your load numbers may be shifted quite a bit.

My plan is to do pulls from 6 PSI to 15 PSI in like 2 psi increments. Keep bumping timing until I hit knock then back it off 2 degrees. Maybe back it off a little more at peak torque. Hopefully I can add in quite a bit at higher RPMs to make up for the boost drop off with 9Bs.

I ran out of time last time I was tuning so I just did 15 PSI low 11's AFR and bumped it up 2 degrees in a few spots (I tried 4 and had no knock so figured 2 degrees was safe on pump).

I would love to do virtual dyno but my tuning laptop is slow as shit and can't run those programs :(

Should be a good thread! Make sure you post mods and what gas your running.

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Originally Posted by Toni

Different engine/turbo/boost configs will certainly affect how these timing charts look. Also, if you use a gm sensor with a translator, your load numbers may be shifted quite a bit.

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Zeroing the translator and relying on the flash for tuning will give good load nombers. Unless you max the load calculation in the ecu for the programmed MAF size.

Jeff

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Originally Posted by kywhitelightning

Zeroing the translator and relying on the flash for tuning will give good load nombers. Unless you max the load calculation in the ecu for the programmed MAF size.

Jeff

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The older version translators (with the 4 knobs) seem to report less airflow than the MAFTPro. No clue why. Could be the MAF being used as well.

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Originally Posted by Greg E

The older version translators (with the 4 knobs) seem to report less airflow than the MAFTPro. No clue why. Could be the MAF being used as well.

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I haven't logged my translator in a while but the last time I pulled a log from it, it saw 670g/s. Any idea what that should represent in Hz? That was before I upped the "fuel cut cap" on the translator so there was no correlation to the Hz value the ecu saw. That comes up to 88.62Lb/Hr. I have an idea of where that should land me HP wise and VD backs it up. Now since the Hz value is essentially uncapped I see near 4800Hz. Do the numbers have any correlation or is there skew from the translator?

This is a translator gen 2 not pro btw.

How do you screen shot the maps? I know I can print screen and then use word to save it. Is that what you guys are doing to post them?

Jeff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kywhitelightning

I haven't logged my translator in a while but the last time I pulled a log from it, it saw 670g/s. Any idea what that should represent in Hz?

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I've wanted to flow bench test a MAF for a while. Just never found a place to do it for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kywhitelightning

I haven't logged my translator in a while but the last time I pulled a log from it, it saw 670g/s. Any idea what that should represent in Hz? That was before I upped the "fuel cut cap" on the translator so there was no correlation to the Hz value the ecu saw. That comes up to 88.62Lb/Hr. I have an idea of where that should land me HP wise and VD backs it up. Now since the Hz value is essentially uncapped I see near 4800Hz. Do the numbers have any correlation or is there skew from the translator?

This is a translator gen 2 not pro btw.

How do you screen shot the maps? I know I can print screen and then use word to save it. Is that what you guys are doing to post them?

Jeff

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Just open the map, press the print screen button on your keyboard, open paint, and paste. then you can save it to some online photohosting place...aka photobucket and link it. I can do it for you if you'd like. :)

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Originally Posted by NOMIEZVR4

Just open the map, press the print screen button on your keyboard, open paint, and paste. then you can save it to some online photohosting place...aka photobucket and link it. I can do it for you if you'd like. :)

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That'll be fine. Thanks

Jeff

This is my 20psi map. I think I had to back off timing one more degree up top when the summer heat got real bad (90+F), but other than that, it's solid.

As you can see, I changed the stock map quite a bit. I was convinced the timing jumping around the way the stock map does was causing knock during spool, since the 19t's spool around 4200rpm for me. A smooth progression took care of it.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e2...7.jpg~original

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Originally Posted by kywhitelightning

That'll be fine. Thanks

Jeff

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Jeff's Timing Map
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/l...psd50d6597.png

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Originally Posted by TwIzTeD_3kGt

This is my 20psi map. I think I had to back off timing one more degree up top when the summer heat got real bad (90+F), but other than that, it's solid.

As you can see, I changed the stock map quite a bit. I was convinced the timing jumping around the way the stock map does was causing knock during spool, since the 19t's spool around 4200rpm for me. A smooth progression took care of it.

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19L's should not spool at 4200. Mine were at full spool with head work by 3400-3600 tops. I started my pulls at 2800ish so maybe that's a factor too. 4200 just sounds lazy, no offense.

Jeff

He's on stock heads IIRC...I think he's basing the number off of his dyno chart where the TQ starts to flat line...Hey Rick do you have a map sensor and can you log boost? My car doesn't start moving till about 3500ish in 3rd gear and I've got cams.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kywhitelightning

19L's should not spool at 4200. Mine were at full spool with head work by 3400-3600 tops. I started my pulls at 2800ish so maybe that's a factor too. 4200 just sounds lazy, no offense.

Jeff

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by NOMIEZVR4

He's on stock heads IIRC...I think he's basing the number off of his dyno chart where the TQ starts to flat line...Hey Rick do you have a map sensor and can you log boost? My car doesn't start moving till about 3500ish in 3rd gear and I've got cams.

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This. Going off my VDR charts, at 20psi they aren't fully spooled until at least 4.2k. That's from starting around 2.5k on the pull. Stock heads. No offense taken of course, I'd be happy if someone noticed something wrong with my setup. :p

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Originally Posted by NOMIEZVR4

Jeff's Timing Map
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/l...psd50d6597.png

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What's Jeff's fuel setup? Pump+Meth right?

Yes, lots of meth. No water, just meth. 20% of my fueling in boost is methanol. 1600ml/min is the flow rate. My 680's are at 65-67%DC at 43.5 psi rail pressure static. I actually tried to run lower timing and it knocked some?????? I knew on my 19t's I was able to get away with 27* up top so I pushed it a little with this setup just to see. This map REALLY likes when I add race gas to the tank he he.

Jeff

I edited the above post because when I did the fueling calculation I forgot to add in the boost pressure increasing the rail pressure. 20% is what is being injected up to 28psi. I can't get past 25psi with that timing map unless it cools off but the reason I keep it like that is because I don't need a new flash to run race gas. I pour it in and turn up the DSBC.

Jeff

Jeff,

What is the max load that you hit?

299. As soon as I start a pull it pretty much pegs at 299 and stays there until the end. I refuse to change the MAF size again as it is a global change to the tune and everything would need to be changed all over again.

Jeff

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Originally Posted by kywhitelightning

i edited the above post because when i did the fueling calculation i forgot to add in the boost pressure increasing the rail pressure.

Jeff

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wat...?

A fuel pressure regulators job is to increase rail pressure 1psi for every 1psi increase in the intake manifold. I didn't account for the 25-28 psi of increased rail pressure the fuel injectors were seeing which raises their flow above the on the box rating of 680. To say it short my original figures were skewed quite a bit.

Reality is the figures are, simply put, a guestimate of what is going on in the engine. I have statically tested my meth setup numerous times for 1 minute straight and I always come up with near 1600ml in the container at the end of the min. Sometimes +50ml sometimes -50ml but, it is really difficult to capture a mist and then even more difficult to keep it from evaporating before getting an accurate measurement. If the fuel injectors are actually flowing what their rating is (and they never do) and the logger is seeing 67% duty cycle at the absolute most, I can guestimate my fueling based on what has been measured and what the logger is seeing.

The 20% figure is certainly not a static figure across the board either because the injector duty cycle starts small and I am usually at peak boost within 600RPM's of the original hit of the throttle. The methanol injection is boost based so it maxes way before the IDC's see their max.

Jeff

The injectors flow the same because their flow is dependent on the differential pressure between the intake and the fuel inlet. That is why the FPR is a 1:1 ratio, to keep the injector effective size constant.

So, even at 25 PSI of boost the injectors still act like they are 660s.

Got it.

Jeff

Here's the map I'm currently running.

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/y...psaa40322c.jpg

How much boost you running? Billet td05s? Was this optimized on dyno? If so all load rows or just your current max? Thanks!

Yep, billet 20G's. Whatever boost I set it to 10psi to 35psi :). Optimized on a dyno. EDIT: And a racetrack for 30min sessions.

Here's a couple timing maps I transferred from 2-D Chrome format and translated into 3-D. It's much easier to see where smoothing can be sorted when you look at them this way.

99 VR-4 Chrome ECU Stock High Octane Timing Map.

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/y...ps56de5a95.jpg

kylightning Chrome ECU DR750 High Octane Methanol Injection Timing Map

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/y...ps635e49a2.jpg

Here's the type of base ignition map smoothing that can be achieved with a 3-D tuning strategy.

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/y...ps213841eb.jpg

ECUFlash has the ability to display maps in this fashion but I never use it. It's neat and all though.

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Originally Posted by Greg E

ECUFlash has the ability to display maps in this fashion but I never use it. It's neat and all though.

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It is a great way to optimize a timing map. You can see where the holes are in the transitions. The smoothing really helps with the driving experience. When you can 3-D trace your timing real time with the laptop open in a live tuning vs. having to refer to log it's easy to smooth and see where the edges of the squares aren't proportionate to one another.


Also, familyman, I'd like to see your timing map. Why haven't you shared it?

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Originally Posted by Greg E

ECUFlash has the ability to display maps in this fashion but I never use it. It's neat and all though.

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IIRC, the graph of it is so freaking small, it's unreadable and practically useless. Any way of getting the graphs to enlarge?

Jeff

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Originally Posted by kywhitelightning

IIRC, the graph of it is so freaking small, it's unreadable and practically useless. Any way of getting the graphs to enlarge?

Jeff

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Yes but I don't remember at the moment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greg E

Yes but I don't remember at the moment.

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I'd love to figure that out too, it is really dumb you can't just drag it to full screen. I've resorted to dropping the resolution on the laptop really low to get it blown up. Maybe the developer could use a suggestion. It is a great feature, but not if you can't see it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J. Fast

Here's a couple timing maps I transferred from 2-D Chrome format and translated into 3-D. It's much easier to see where smoothing can be sorted when you look at them this way.

99 VR-4 Chrome ECU Stock High Octane Timing Map.

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You threw me for a loop there for a second. You were saying the 2D maps from Chrome to the 3D maps in AEM. Took me a second to realize you were talking about the graphing feature. As all maps for spark and fuel are 3D in every ECU.

Hell Vipec can do a 6D map. That can take a bit to get right.

I use the graphing feature a lot. Like you said it really does help when you can get a visualization of whats going on instead of just looking at numbers, that and color gradient.

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Originally Posted by llabmik2

You threw me for a loop there for a second. You were saying the 2D maps from Chrome to the 3D maps in AEM. Took me a second to realize you were talking about the graphing feature. As all maps for spark and fuel are 3D in every ECU.

Hell Vipec can do a 6D map. That can take a bit to get right.

I use the graphing feature a lot. Like you said it really does help when you can get a visualization of whats going on instead of just looking at numbers, that and color gradient.

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The color gradient is why I never use 3D graphs in ECUFlash. You get a good visual of what is going on.