Bolt on... and will accept stock intercooler piping. Somewhere in the $1000 range with upgrade options for a shroud and a custom oil cooler bracket. Intercooler entrance and exit piping will be 2".
Need atleast 5 sets or it's not worth it.
Bolt on... and will accept stock intercooler piping. Somewhere in the $1000 range with upgrade options for a shroud and a custom oil cooler bracket. Intercooler entrance and exit piping will be 2".
Need atleast 5 sets or it's not worth it.
Would love an upgrade...but a grand is on the steep side for me :(
I am interested.
Tidbits from my 3sgto.org Facebook post.This is a good as it gets for not restricting airflow to the engine and radiator. Guys making over 500hp know what I'm talking about when you still have air conditioning and sit idle or run ragged on a road course.Quote:
They will be the largest SMIC's ever fabricated, will accept OEM piping configurations, and good for 400hp per turbo.
In addition I can also offer a custom shroud and/or upgrade to an integrated oil cooler bracket for twin oil coolers or a single cooler in stock location. The oil coolers can be mounted behind the cores.
Intercooler cores will be 4.5" deep Bell Cores. 2" inlet/outlet.
This is the dream setup for you DR750 guys or big twin turbo setups.
I will be asking for a material deposit. Turn around will be 3 weeks.
Please start a list...
How do these compare to the genes smic's ?
Pics of intercoolers you want to use?
Bell core # A450118100 core measurements are 4.5" x 11.8" x 10" .
Core chart and pricing is here... Bell Intercoolers | Air to Air Intercooler Cores
Cores for each set are $700, end tanks are $80, piping is $100. I'm basically building these as a favor to a few people that were involved in a bidding war over my last (2) sets of Gene's SMIC's. I told them I would replicate them for the same price. Gene lost his ass on his group buy... I'm a bit wiser and don't steal :). I'll do it for cost plus $120 per set.
Price does not include shroud, dual oil cooler or single oil cooler mounts.
This is really the way to go. If I had a Stealth, I would hop on this.
Jeremy
Each core is rated at 950cfm. That's 1900cfm of intercooler. My 4.5" x 25" x 14" Treadstone FMIC has the same rating and its rated for 1200 horsepower.
As badass as that sounds, therein would be my question...Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Fast
There are more than a few of us out here that do not now, nor will ever, need 1900cfm of intercooler that can support 1200 horsepower. Is making a similar setup with about half(?) of that capacity not worth the time, or is the expense for same just too close to what you are proposing so that its not worth the effort?
possibly interested if I could still get near $1000 for my ets setup. Would be a while before I could commit unless someone wanted to buy my fmic right away. closing on a house and paying for motor from ray soon.
:stupid:Quote:
Originally Posted by wingnut
my bad...ignore this post :D
The sidemount will be less efficient at sucking up heat as a comparable FMIC. So the very high cfm to hp rating of the FMIC is not as relevent to the sidemounts. The sidemounts can be more efficient if you can get air in them and cleanly out of them at sustained speed use but likely still not as good as a FMIC for drag racing since the IC then is just a big heat sink, bigger = better.
SMIC is the way to go imo, cleaner look, cleaner fit, fmic's now are tacky and cop magnets. SMIC ftw.
Jason
Interested but according to Oohnoo the stock IC piping is 1.575 ID, not 2 inch. Also will they mount exactly like stock and fit with the stock oil cooler?
If you have DNP pipes, or 2" aftermarket pipes you are golden. If you have oem sized pipes you only need a reducing coupler at the location.
CFM is a measurement of flow capacity and restriction. We really only want to be reliant on demanding 75% of the full capacity. That way it maintains its flow characteristics and btu rating and you don't heat soak it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wingnut
Actually, I was surprised in discovering how very little core temp is impacted by exposed surface area. You could cut a hole the size of a baseball in your front bumper and at 100mph the airflow vs. drag benefit is actually much better than a 12" x 36" cut-out for an FMIC. The air temp drop across the core from inlet to outlet pretty much stays the same too. At speed you really want small holes and the airflow will arrive just the same as if the holes were 3 times larger. Look at NASCAR and how small their radiator and bumper cut-outs are and how long they have to dip out of the draft and catch clean air to cool down. It takes about 5 seconds at speed to cool down their heat sinks 50 degrees thru bumper openings measuring 12 square inches.Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonY
There will be a provision for a bracket to sandwich the stock oil cooler for the drivers side and passenger side. That leaves room for twin oil coolers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimvr4
More then likely the bracket upgrade will be forced and will ease installation and hopefully minimize BFH, excessive cutting and re-decorating.
The intercooler step increase can be rectified with a simple silicon coupler. Sourcing those is individual responsibility. I think a 2-1.5" 4-ply reducer is around $15
wishing i had cash ATM.
Thats mostly my point J. but for drag racing the short burst of hot air the FMIC is more well suited since there is little time for much heat transfer.
Jason
The cores may be 900 cfm but that doesn't matter when you put 2" pipes on there.
Based on that you may aswell use thinner cores. Say 3,5". Which means better adapted cfm for most turbos (less lag) means better outside airflow and cooling through the core.Quote:
The velocities are in miles per hour and mach, and the flow rates are in cfm. Measurements for the piping are in inches.
0.4 mach = 304 MPH
2" piping
1.57 x 2 = 3.14 sq in
300 cfm = 156 mph = 0.20 mach
400 cfm = 208 mph = 0.27 mach
500 cfm = 261 mph = 0.34 mach
585 cfm max = 304 mph = 0.40 mach
2.25" piping
3.9740625 sq in = 1.98703125 x 2
300 cfm = 123 mph = 0.16 mach
400 cfm = 164 mph = 0.21 mach
500 cfm = 205 mph = 0.26 mach
600 cfm = 247 mph = 0.32 mach
700 cfm = 288 mph = 0.37 mach
740 cfm max = 304 mph = 0.40 mach
2.5" piping
4.90625 sq in = 2.453125 x 2
300 cfm = 100 mph = 0.13 mach
400 cfm = 133 mph = 0.17 mach
500 cfm = 166 mph = 0.21 mach
600 cfm = 200 mph = 0.26 mach
700 cfm = 233 mph = 0.30 mach
800 cfm = 266 mph = 0.34 mach
900 cfm = 300 mph = 0.39 mach
913 cfm max = 304 mph = 0.40 mach
2.75" piping
5.9365625 sq in = 2.96828125 x 2
300 cfm = 82 mph = 0.10 mach
400 cfm = 110 mph = 0.14 mach
500 cfm = 137 mph = 0.17 mach
600 cfm = 165 mph = 0.21 mach
700 cfm = 192 mph = 0.25 mach
800 cfm = 220 mph = 0.28 mach
900 cfm = 248 mph = 0.32 mach
1000 cfm = 275 mph = 0.36 mach
1100 cfm max = 303 mph = 0.40 mach
3.0" piping
7.065 sq in = 3.5325 x 2
300 cfm = 69 mph = 0.09 mach
400 cfm = 92 mph = 0.12 mach
500 cfm = 115 mph = 0.15 mach
600 cfm = 138 mph = 0.18 mach
700 cfm = 162 mph = 0.21 mach
800 cfm = 185 mph = 0.24 mach
900 cfm = 208 mph = 0.27 mach
1000 cfm = 231 mph = 0.30 mach
1100 cfm = 254 cfm = 0.33 mach
1200 cfm = 277 mph = 0.36 mach
1300 cfm max= 301 mph = 0.39 mach
*.4 Mach is the point at which air becomes turbulent and losses in efficiency start to occur exponentially. The key is to stay under that speed. You want to use the smallest piping possible that still flows enough to meet your needs. Larger than necessary piping increases lag time with no measurable gain
Fair enough, but the question remains...even at 75% of capacity you are talking about 900hp, a number I will not be seeing without a lottery win, which would make this a moot point http://www.rllmukforum.com/public/st...t/eyebrows.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by J. Fast
You can transfer more heat with more heat transfer area. Ir-regardless of the choke point of the inlet outlet diameter, the inlet/outlet temperature is more critical as well as the time the liquid spends in the exchanger. I want it to slow down, which will result in a pressure drop. Tthe longer air(liquid) spends in the heat exchanger the greater the btu transfer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ange
The cores by themselves weigh 15lbs. That's a significant density. I learned a lot when I increased my radiator and intercooler to 3 times the stock capacity, weight, and density. The bigger core is what you want for performance, especially when your intercooler inlet temp is 450 degrees on little TD-04 turbos. A 3.5" core or a core weighing 5 lbs lighter with an effective CFM and btu exchange rate 20% less yields less power. The temp differential from the temperature alone is worth about 10% in horsepower.
585 cfm is where 2" piping is starting to be restrictive and flow losses are experienced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ange
its ok that the piping have a little pressure loss too. the cores are also rated at 900cfm@ 1 psig pressure loss across the intercooler core and a charge-air pressure of 10 psig .
'2" piping could flow about 720cfm or so with a pressure drop of about 1.1 psi' at compressor inlet conditions. sure the 2" piping would not be ideal if someone plans to push these cores to the flow limit, 2.25" or 2.5 piping would be about a perfect match in that case .
fiy to you all who wish to keep the stock piping and run more boost with it.
according to this calculator and remember this is just straight smooth pipe no bends.
Compressed Air Pipe Lines - Online Pressure Drop Calculator
ninja edit
even at low boost of 15psi and at low 360cfm flow our stock 1.5 " ID IC piping alone have a total pressure drop of 1.6 psi, it gets exponentially worse with more boost/flow!
now upgrade the piping to 2" 0.3 psi pressure drop at the same 15psi of boost and flow !
Yeah kinda... The calcuator you just linked to from engineering toolbox is absolute pressure based. Say its fairbto assume DR750R's or Billet Evo 16g's flow 750cfm at 25psi gauge pressure per turbo... At absolute of sea level you would add 14.7psi to the 25psi. . According to the calculator 11 feet of pipe flowing 750cfm at 40psi absolute has a pressure drop of 1psi. No big deal at all really. You lose like 15 horsepower. What you gain in 40 degree cooler ait from time in core and density scatter is 40 horsepower .. You want the big core.Quote:
Originally Posted by mb7050
EDIT: I used the following values in the imperical calculator:
q = 750 (cfm)
L = 11 (length of piping ft)
d = 2 (inside diameter of intercooler piping in.)
p = 40 (absolute pressure = 14.7psi + 25psi)
TOTAL PRESSURE DROP = 1.08psi
Love the idea of this, pity it's way out of my price range for now. Would need to sell my single core FMIC..And maybe an organ or two, would be worth it though :P
Using the same imperial unit calculator for stock intercooler piping and say 9b's at 15psi.
q = 360 (cfm)
L = 11 (length of IC piping in ft)
d = 1.5" (inside diameter in.)
p = 30 (absolute pressure 14.7atm + 15psi boost)
TOTAL PRESSURE DROP = 1.6psi.
When you increase the hose pressure the total pressure drop decreases because the weight behind it gets heavier.
There is a choke point but I really don't think you can hit it because you can make the power. I believe Ray P makes 750hp on stock intercooler piping and DR750's at 30psi.
yup I think your right. I wondered why I got such high pressure drops, lol
according to the calculator Ray P may have over 4 psi pressure drop in the piping alone if he really is using the stock pipes .
I wouldnt want to have anymore than 1,5-2psi max pressure drop in the IC piping.
according to this ( http://www.3sgto.org/turbo-engines-s...html#post69395 )
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/6...ffffffffff.jpg
as early as at 320 cfm, and air tube diameter = 1.5 in the 1.5 piping reaches 0.395mach (0.4 mach is the point at which airflow meets increased resistance (drag) and flow losses are experienced) FWIW if going with Corky Bells recommendations from old school book maximum boost the stock piping would be good for about ~~640cfm or about ~~420 crank hp max.
the 2" piping would be then good for the ~~1,180 CFM or about 650 awhp, or about 780 crank hp max(as Ange mentioned before).
also if you consult Bell intercoolers(Gerhard Schruf) they will recommend larger piping than dual 2" even for 650 awhp or 1,180 CFM , i believe they still use this math and always advice to stay under .4 mach ...
Are there any piping kits in 2.25/2.5? running these w/ CX seems like a waste. I know of DN, but finding those are hard.
keep in mind that to make use of 2.25" pipes you also need a 3"+ throttle body and plenum inlet. oem bottleneck and plenum would bottleneck alot using 2.25" pipes.Quote:
Originally Posted by hated
oem 2.35" plenum and tb are perfectly adapted for oem 1.65" pipes.
One interested person... WOW!
the thread has only been up a week or so. But did you try 3si? probably more people on that board..
But 3s is kind of poor mans platform I guess. Not taking anything away from the car I love these cars just that it's a cheap car. Thus brings cheap/poor people :)
busy playing with other platforms right now......
personally, I prefer sidemounts for how I use my vehicles.
price-point...dont get me wrong, not implying that what you are proposing isn't worth it!Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Fast
But I count 5-6 that are interested and either; dont need that big of a core, or cant spend that kind of cash on it.
Idea...maybe offer your version as the "race option" and a "street version" with a smaller core and under ~$700?
...would be a great option for someone who doesn't want to retrofit DSMs http://www.samizdata.net/~pdeh/smiley_eyebrows.gif
Yeah we need cores better than cx racing, but maybe not as good as bell.
Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Tapatalk
Price is out with 8x8x3.5. Should fit all year bumpers(except the 99's, they sit further back) w/o issue and work with stock ducting. since its basically stock thats like 1" thicker and likely a higher quality core.
Jason
Jeremy, if I had it over again I’d go this route but at this point there is no way I could afford them.
I'd say make an option with the same same or close to same surface area as the bell core option, but a thinner 3.5", and with cheaper cores (like ebay cxracing core). when it comes to intercoolers, Surface area is way more important than thickness. Have a look at the formula cars intercoolers.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-conten...-f1-2013-2.jpg
This would make it in a better price range for many people and with sufficient flow for most td04 builds.
Alright so 3.5" 8 x 10 cores are $100 cheaper each so... $800 range without shroud and oil cooler mounting bracket. Let's see where this goes. Man, I'm so damn surprised the interest is so low.
Guess this is why I fab for scoobs. No money in 3/S. You have to do it because you love it, not to make a living.
Geeze, your $1000 side mounts arent immediate hits? Bash the community because there's no way this has anything to do with prior failed group buys, the price point, or the fact that most of us spent less to go FMIC years ago.
Maybe presenting similar projects you've done for scoobs would help churn up interest. Have you ever organized a 3S group buy where you collected money up front? SO many of these deals go south.
There's a reason these style SMICs haven't been big hits in the past. You're not the first to think of this and neither was russian.
God the 3S market is turrible!!1