Couple Virtual dyno charts from todays outing

Couple virtual dyno pulls on the car today. Couple new things so wanted to see what she had this race season.

On Trevor's recommendation I tried out the Champion race plugs. They have no strap, so no gap to worry about. All I can say is WOW. I overboosted (36-37psi) and my AEM only has 3.5 bar map so 35.12 or above goes into fuel cut.

New crankcase breather system to relieve crankcase of pressure. And a little tinkering with the timing map.

I also found the adjustable cam heard were all -1 to -1.5 degrees off when at 0 so I reset 0 and set them to the correct -3 +1. Which would also explain some power increase.

Knock is WAY down, it is running much quieter now. Pulled smoother and stronger. I thought it felt better. Then I did the Virtual dyno graphs. Wholly Bejeebus.

Those who don't know, I run:
3.0L Stock heads and cams
95% Ethanol 5% Methanol
I probably am a little light on the car weight on the graphs, but wanted to error on light side rather than heavy so the numbers would be more realistic.

825AWHP 798TQ @30psi
914AWHP 881TQ @36psi

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...41956481_o.jpg

-Chris

can you go into more detail (with pictures please) on your crank case vent setup please?! i am wanting to get a new setup for my car, but havent come up with anything good yet.

great results as always chris. what plugs specifically did you use? my NGK coppers are doin pretty well for me, but i am always open to other options!

Flippin aswome !!! Can't wait to see what this thing does this season !!

I thought the ngk coppers I was running, non projected 8, were great. Trevor tested these Champions out and said they were great for high HP and ethanol. Sure enough, more power, smoother, and my Knock volts and raw are both MUCH lower and smoother.

Champion Spark Plug C53VC

-CHris

thanks chris!

again, if you wouldnt mind, i would love to see your crankcase setup too!

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Originally Posted by futurevr4man

thanks chris!

again, if you wouldnt mind, i would love to see your crankcase setup too!

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both drivers side go to open empty oil bottles
pass side rear and front (with PCV delete fitting Ninja Performance PCV Valve Delete Fitting (NPPCVD) - Ninja Performance - Affordable Performance ) go to a vented catch can.
Then I have a -10AN fitting on the pass side front cover in the baffled area with -10AN SS braid going to a catch can with two large filters for venting.

-Chris

so are you not pulling a vacuum at idle at all?

No i am not.

-Chris

am i incorrect in the thought that the car should be pulling some vacuum through the crank cases at idle? i thought it was supposed to help the seals

Wow. Thanks for sharing. Will have to check out the Champions.

Future; gleaning from the numerous pcv/catch can/krank vent threads, yes; vacuum helps @ idle, iirc depends on car use, ie dd verses track.

Revel in your time

nice numbers man...stock 3.0, but would you be in the mood to share you mod list, or is that top secret :D

Again, great numbers. I love playing with VD, tho many people do not take it seriously which I think is kinda dumb...

any more thoughts on those C53VC plugs? how would they fair on a mostly stock/bpu car vs the NGK Coppers do you think?

man those plugs are interesting. with the way they are designed, the flame front is beginning higher in the cylinder. im trying to think about how that would affect power... very interesting is all i can say

Good stuff Chris.

I do think it's a little inflated though. You are making the same tq at 2500-3000 rpms as my 10:1 3.5 (verified by dyno). and I am already making 6psi by 3000 rpm.

Also since you still have some spike, waviness with smoothing on 2 (especially red lines), leads me to think that as well. I found that the spiked data points you are trying to smooth out would inflate the numbers so I didn't like to use any graphs that needed more than "1" smoothing for comparison. You're double the hp than I was though, so not sure how that affects the data.

Hopefully you prove me wrong at the track since it sounds like you are getting ready (NTLS thread) :D

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Originally Posted by familyMAN

Good stuff Chris.

I do think it's a little inflated though. You are making the same tq at 2500-3000 rpms as my 10:1 3.5 (verified by dyno). and I am already making 6psi by 3000 rpm.

Also since you still have some spike, waviness with smoothing on 2 (especially red lines), leads me to think that as well. I found that the spiked data points you are trying to smooth out would inflate the numbers so I didn't like to use any graphs that needed more than "1" smoothing for comparison. You're double the hp than I was though, so not sure how that affects the data.

Hopefully you prove me wrong at the track since it sounds like you are getting ready (NTLS thread) :D

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Remember, I run on pure alcohol. 95% ethanol 5% methanol.
During my vast testing, I found that my setup with E95M5 and DR1000 size turbos ran almost identical numbers to a 3.5 DR1000 car on race gas (or pump up until it needed race gas). Lots of dyno testing proved that. I pretty much have said since then that E95M5 makes a 3.0 put out 3.5 power. So it does not surprise me that I make the same Tq as you in low RPM range. I also run a god awful amount of fuel, 45-50% more volume than a gas setup.

With the old tune, cam setup, spark plugs, and a few pounds less boost I was running 115MPH 1/8 and 144MPH 1/4s.

-Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ninja Performance

I pretty much have said since then that E95M5 makes a 3.0 put out 3.5 power. So it does not surprise me that I make the same Tq as you in low RPM range. I also run a god awful amount of fuel, 45-50% more volume than a gas setup.

-Chris

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My data was with e85, not gas. I wasn't saying its completely off base, just saying based on the 2500-3000 rpm data (and 2 smoothing needed) IMHO it could be slightly high, but I'm just a guy with a blown up engine, so take my opinion for what it's worth...right now, not much:D There may not even be enough acceleration data from the initial hit for VD to be accurate for the first 500 rpm??

You probably have some old logs from the same tune you ran 835 on dyno. For comparison, maybe try one of those in virtual dyno?

Hell of a setup and you are closing in on T4's old numbers with less mods and less turbo if I recall correctly.

Edit: On the 825 run, were you wanting to run 13:1? Experimentation?

Do you have hks twin power?

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Originally Posted by familyMAN

My data was with e85, not gas. I wasn't saying its completely off base, just saying based on the 2500-3000 rpm data (and 2 smoothing needed) IMHO it could be slightly high, but I'm just a guy with a blown up engine, so take my opinion for what it's worth...right now, not much:D There may not even be enough acceleration data from the initial hit for VD to be accurate for the first 500 rpm??

You probably have some old logs from the same tune you ran 835 on dyno. For comparison, maybe try one of those in virtual dyno?

Hell of a setup and you are closing in on T4's old numbers with less mods and less turbo if I recall correctly.

Edit: On the 825 run, were you wanting to run 13:1? Experimentation?

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I am sure VD is off from an actual dyno, but then again, all dyno's are different as well. And VD is only as good as the numbers put in and the flat road you use. I have a flat long road in the country I use and input the right car data and weight to get as close as possible. Same road and another AEM car with EVOIIIs and I struggled to get 480HP out of it at 18-20psi with Meth injection, so I know it's pretty close.

Many Many others have tested back to back dyno and VD and found it to be pretty close. As far as smoothing 2, that is just where mine is set so I use it, never set it to 1 to see what would happen. Higher numbers I suppose? Maybe 2 would cover up some wheelspin?

As for the arf, I normally don't run that low boost and the fuel map isn't as rich as it should be. It was not on purpose.

I didn't log all the data points needed for VD back in the day so I can't import those old logs into VD to see what it looked like. Also not sure I ever ran a 2000-redline pull on the street before since I wasn't trying to get VD info, so that log never happened.

I know how my car ran before all the mods, and now it is smoother and pulls slightly harder, so a jump from 835AWHP to 900 wouldn't be far fetched to me, my butt tells me it gained power. Maybe not 900 but much higher than 835.

All in all, it has more power, who knows how much, time to take it to the track. I did however run 2 more pounds of boost so there is some of the power there, then there are the cam gear settings, and the spark plugs burning more of the charge.

-Chris

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Originally Posted by mehrshadvr4

Do you have hks twin power?

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Yes. Mods Here:
Ninja Performance - Your Affordable Performance Parts Store

-Chris

Stock cams... wow. Ever thought about seeing what it would do on c16? Obviously less but still 700+?

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Originally Posted by AdamVR4

Stock cams... wow. Ever thought about seeing what it would do on c16? Obviously less but still 700+?

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Many others, including myself, have pushed stock cams and heads on a 3.0 and I think the wall was around 600AWHp 650 TOPS depending on dnyo.

But that is due to the air flow stock cams and heads can flow. There is a limit. But I sneak in MORE air via a HIGHLY oxygenated fuel. You can see however that past 6250 power starts to take a dive due to this. Turbos are still pumping out the same if not even higher boost, (probably higher psi due to restriction increasing at higher RPM) but power is dropping. All due to the heads and cams running out.

I am almost done with pushing this 3.0L stock head/cam setup. Have some track visits to do to complete it.

-Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AdamVR4

Stock cams... wow.

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And basically stock heads, CXracing intercooler. About as simple td05 setup as can be done. Amazing results.

E95 is magic juice!

Good cams and heads will be interesting.

I do have hi rev springs in the heads as I did a lot of testing with cams, then sold them and went back to stock cams to get some bottom end back. And to see how far I could push stock heads and cams.

-Chris

Still never answered my q about the spark plugs
Christopher :)

I always have it set to smoothing=2 as default, SO here it is with smoothing=1

http://www.ninjaperformance.com/imag...013smooth1.jpg

-Chris

Can't see the Champions hurting a low power car, but really don't think they would help either. They are really for high HP race applications.

-Chris

Thanks. Eliminates the needs of indexing tho im sure no one does that these days.

Even with a twinpower on a brand new OEM ignition (PTU, coils, and wires) I had breakup with E85 at 32+ psi. With Denso Iridiums (which I'm a huge fan of) it was horrible. Went to the non projected plugs with a tight gap and it improved but my logs still showed significant back steps in RPM at peak torque (IE peak cylinder pressure). Went to flat electrode plugs like these:
http://www.sparkplugssource.com/images/5719.jpg
...and it further improved but the $10 a piece plugs I was running were discontinued and the only plugs available now of that construction are ~$34 a piece which is F'in ridiculous. Ended up doing some research on plug attributes/characteristics and settled on the Champions. I'm no fan of the brand but they work great. They are one of if not THE only option out there with an off the wall contruct. Maybe if we continue to keep a demand on the part number it won't go away.

Big take aways of the surface discharge plugs are that they're very resistant to blow out and fouling. They're not rotary engine specific either. F1 used to use em back in the day.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA300_.jpg

I will be keeping these in mind down the road. Chris what is ur bottom end like?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blackmount

Thanks. Eliminates the needs of indexing tho im sure no one does that these days.

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Indexing was for plugs that were to the side, in a Hemi head setup, like ours, indexing makes no difference.

-Chris

Since you are running e95 you don't even need to run intercooler any more. run the charge pipes to the TB and enjoy The boost respond.you might even gain some power because your turbos will flow more per psi. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mehrshadvr4

Since you are running e95 you don't even need to run intercooler any more. run the charge pipes to the TB and enjoy The boost respond.you might even gain some power because your turbos will flow more per psi. :D

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A friend with a 450 horse 240 does that, his intake is about 2 ft long. Injects e85 into the chargepipe, too.

From the phone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blackmount

I will be keeping these in mind down the road. Chris what is ur bottom end like?

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Detail
Ninja Performance - Your Affordable Performance Parts Store

General, 4 bolt 3.0L stock crank, BC rods, Wiseco coated skirt pistons with Ninja Performance H13 tool steel .200" wall pins
Stock heads and cams
Stock TBG and plenums (upper,lower)
stock oil pump, water pump
Ninja Performance Solid Timing Kit

-Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ninja Performance

Knock is WAY down, it is running much quieter now. Pulled smoother and stronger. I thought it felt better. Then I did the Virtual dyno graphs. Wholly Bejeebus.

Those who don't know, I run:
3.0L Stock heads and cams

-Chris

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1st, do you think the drop in knock could partially be from the cam gear timing being corrected.


2nd, just for clarity your heads are port matched right? As well well as gasket matched upper and lower intake plenum?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ninja Performance

I always have it set to smoothing=2 as default, SO here it is with smoothing=1

http://www.ninjaperformance.com/imag...013smooth1.jpg

-Chris

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As I commented on other site, smoothing on 1 looks good. Not as spikey/wavy as I expected, since I incorrectly assumed you were using "2" to smooth the graph. Comparing the low end to your 835awhp graph....

http://www.ninjaperformance.com/VR4/835AWHP.jpg

You're making 50-80 more awtq below 3500rpm now, vs your 835awhp graph. Maybe it's the road, maybe its VD, maybe your tune sub-boost is that much better, your adjusted cam timing, etc. I love VD and just want to see what your thoughts are. Trevor had some trouble with his readings, but Leonel (if I recall) at 900ish hp also, was spot on to his dyno. Mine was spot on as well, granted only 400/475

I hope that the 3S community can discuss these results so that everyone can be as comfortable as the EVO guys using VD, as a way to compare mod and setup changes/results. I wouldn't have even brought it up if it wasn't for the sub-boost data and genuinely want your results to be valid which will add more confidence and validity to all VD charts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mehrshadvr4

Since you are running e95 you don't even need to run intercooler any more. run the charge pipes to the TB and enjoy The boost respond.you might even gain some power because your turbos will flow more per psi. :D

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That would be cool to see on a 3S:)

I too took Trevors advice on the spark plugs awhile back. 40hrs of dyno time and 10k miles and no signs if weakening. FYI the gap on those is about 40 thou. I'm in the mid 700's at 30psi on billet 20g's with a DLI on E85 with a 3.1 bottom on stock heads and cams also.

Good stuff Ninja!

Also, I would like to add I only recc champion spark plugs. They're great plugs and only two bucks a piece. Stealth316 has a cross reference for all plugs. Props to Trevor for plug rec a year ago!

where are you all getting your plugs from?

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Originally Posted by familyMAN

Trevor had some trouble with his readings...

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I figured out my issue. Once I got the RPM sample rate out the stratosphere and down to <20Hz the charts are much more realistic and smooth. VD doesn't like 250Hz worth of RPM data.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J. Fast

Props to Trevor for plug rec a year ago!

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Glad I could help!

^Good to know!

Looks like I'm sold on these plugs too and will be picking up a set for the rebuild.

Edit: just picked up a set from Ebay/summitracing at Chris's suggestion. Only $34.65 shipped!

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Originally Posted by futurevr4man

where are you all getting your plugs from?

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Pep Boys and Advanced Auto has nearly every Champion spark plug referenced in 316 as well as the plugs being discussed in stock.