**** Major Issue with the 3sx Adjustable Cam Gears - Zero is not Zero****

I got a set of these cams gears a while back and was messing around with them on the spare engine I have. Found something very disturbing concerning the adjustments on these and wanted to share my findings.

Here are the pics of the 3sx adjustable cam gears. I was looking at them and something just struck me as "off". Upon inspection I was right. They are 2.5 degrees off. When set at 0 degrees they are actually at 2.5 degrees ADVANCED.

Here is a stock one bolted up to a 3sx one "Stock on bottom", Cam dowels holes are aligned and you can see the teeth are off.

http://3s.gonzoinc.com/albums/userpi...gearwrong2.jpg

Here you can see how they were bolted together to be checked and how far off they are:

http://3s.gonzoinc.com/albums/userpi...gearwrong1.jpg

For those wondering the second gen cams have fins and holes that can be bolted to:
http://www.groundzeroperformance.com..._Cam_Gear2.jpg
Thanks GZP for the photo! It was the only one I could find on Google....:p


So for further testing I bolted them to the cam on the head and aligned them as I usually would.

Stock ones:
http://3s.gonzoinc.com/albums/userpi...gearwrong3.jpg

3SX ones:
http://3s.gonzoinc.com/albums/userpi...gearwrong4.jpg

Therefore:
Set at 0 = 2.5 degrees advanced cam timing
Retard exhaust -3 degrees = -.5 degrees retarded (optimal is -3 degrees retarded)
Advance intake +1 degree = +3.5 degrees advanced (optimal is +1 degrees advanced)

The issue is people buy these cam gears for the power increase obviously. 3sx's claim of gains of 55 ft/lb and 57 hp at 19psi cannot be correct if they are adjusting these gears as they say they are.

The baseline is their cam gear set at 0. Which is 2.5 degrees advance on intake and exhaust. Which is going to rob power big time. Then they adjust them to +1 -3 which is actually +3.5 -.5. Of course there is going to be a gain, having the exhaust at 2.5 advanced is killing it.

Here is the baseline Dyno graph they have on their site which they state os 0/0 but is actually +2.5 +2.5:
http://www.3sx.com/store/catalog/cam...t-zero-650.jpg

So with the cams gears out of spec then they are actually running at +3.5 -.5.

And here they have them adjusted per their website which actually comes out to be +3.5 -.5.:

Quote:

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Above: Cam Gears set at +/- 0 degrees (stock)
Below: Cam Gears set at +1 advance on intake, -3 retard on exhaust

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http://www.3sx.com/store/catalog/cam...nus3ex-650.jpg


The BIGGER issue is I bet 80% of people never dyno, They get the gears, set them at +1 -3 and install them and done. And actually lose power in the process. They could take this information and set them accordingly so they end up at the +1 -3 they need to be. Which would mean retarding Exhaust 5.5 degrees to total -3 retard, and actually retarding the intake 1.5 to total +1 advance.

If you have a set of these gears then you need to check them the same way I did. I don't know if this was just a production run issue or an issue with all cam gears ever sold. The ones I have are used and I have no way to tell when they were purchased.

Wow, that's crazy. To think of all the people who have just set them at -3 +1 and put them on never hitting the dyno (probably 90% of people). They are actually losing power.

-Chris

So are they good to have if the proper adjustments are made or should a different cam hear be purchased instead?

Nice research man!

Greg- Did you contact 3sx about this? If so what did they say?

This explains their claims of Gains of 55 ft/lb and 57 hp at 19psi between the gears set at 0 and then set at +1 -3. Set at 0 they are choking the car. I wonder what that same car at 19psi made with OE gears on it?

-Chris

This is why I stopped buying their in-house products or even considering them... Good find. This goes back to my constant ranting of the lack of proper R+D of power adders these days.

Has this been brought to 3sxs attention yet?

No I haven't contacted them cause more information needs to be gathered first. The gears were used so no warranty on them. Wanted to post it on the forums so others can check to see how widespread the issue really is. This may just be a production run issue with a certain batch or all of them could be out of whack. Some could be even more off that the 2.5 degrees noted on mine.

I think there is a set on the 4 bolt TT engine you picked up for me when I was up at Hopkins getting my bone marrow transplant. I will check to see if they are and pull them off and check them later.

-Chris

Given the number of places that you've posted this you should have contacted them first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan92RTTT

Given the number of places that you've posted this you should have contacted them first.

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I see where you are coming from, but it really isn't his responsibility, it was the seller's responsibility to produce a product that is correct, not Greg's (whom didn't even purchase, just found an old set) responsibility to work with them in correcting it or bringing it to their attention.

It doesn't look like they contacted Gates (http://www.3sgto.org/f2/*-*-*-*-*-ca...ong-10680.html) on an issue they thought they found, which ended up not being an issue. Kinda the same thing.

-Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan92RTTT

Given the number of places that you've posted this you should have contacted them first.

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I posted it out just to make people aware of the alignment issue and so that everyone that has them can check them out. Even if they are not zero'd correctly, those people that have them are now able to actually adjust them properly. They will have the option to contact 3sx if they purchased them from 3sx. I bought mine second hand used so technically I could only go back to the person I bought them off of with the issue.

This is for awareness not bashing, sorry to anyone that took it as bashing. It is not intended that way.

Just sent 3sx a note on facebook.

While your intent is informative some in the 3S community enjoy bashing 3SX for any reason they can find. Others will jump on the bandwagon for their own gain.

Shooting one of the 3SX guys a note about the issue would at lest have let them research and respond.

Everyone with adjustable gears should have a piston stop, degree wheel, and dial indicator.

Thanks for letting the population know!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by donniekak

Everyone with adjustable gears should have a piston stop, degree wheel, and dial indicator.

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This^^ since bolt on means you need to kind of know what your doing unless you keep it simple

But didnt 3sx admit there was a bad batch with one of the cam gear sets in the beginning, perhaps there are a few of these sets still floating around that they werent able to get recalled. I mean you do say they are a used set.

The original issue that I found on the other site was with the teeth and the timing belt not wrapping correctly on it. This set came from a running engine which would not have been possible on the old set:

original thread for those wanting to read it: 3SX custom cam gears, possible issue. - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center

I don't know if Keyan is on this site but here is a video he took and posted on the other site of the issue he is seeing with his set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=zAb3XO9qLyA

I had the original 3Sx fidanza gears and they were marked backwards, so it seems there are little issues with all of the iterations of this aftermarket product no matter who is making them. As an engineer, I can only hope that when they have a product R&D'd they have someone in-house that checks the proto-type and gives the ok on production after testing/measuring etc.. i never heard of issues with the unorthodox wheels though....

Thanks

yeah, im over here. just didnt know the thread was cross posted. thanks for posting the video.

also here are my pictures

Quote:

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https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...41511993_n.jpg

this is what it looks like when you put them ontop of each other with the timing dots lined up. notice how the notch for the dowl is misaligned.


I do not have a spare valve cover so i am lining it up with horizontal. this is a stock cam gear
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...20837051_n.jpg

with the stock cam gear ever so delicately removed and the 3sx one installed SET TO ZERO, this is what it looks like

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...76602216_n.jpg


i also just confirmed that from the center mark of the dowl there are 9 teeth to the timing dot on the 3SX gears, and 8 teeth on the oem gear.


Please. Someone. Halp.

I want a refund. God. And i had to deal with 3SX during the improperly manufactured cam seals, too :mad:

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in a perfect world, what i want is a threaded discussion with a SINGLE 3SX employee. when i found out i had improperly manufactured cam seals, i emailed, and called and they denied it up to high heaven, and i dealt with 3 different people who i had to explain the situation to again and again. all i wanted was a $30 refund so i could buy OEM gaskets. what i got from them was a $30 gift card to their store.

I want a refund on these gears. yeah i could set them to 0, but adjusting them becomes impossible because the adjustment becomes maxed out. and who knows if +1 -3 would even work any more?

drgonzo, the other thread with the wrong sized gears - check your picture. the timing mark is a proper 8 teeth off.

so the older gears were timed properly but the wrong size

now the new ones are sized good but the marks are wrong.

You COULD adjust the other way, put a new dot on the tooth, then you will have enough room......but that's not "right" either.

Somehow I feel like I've been here before.

you are right. the video over complicates the solution.

the timing dot just needs to be at 8 teeth instead of 9 teeth. then everything will line up perfectly. I annotated the video with this information


but that's a ghetto solution. it should have been right to begin with

In for updates.

Hello,
First, thank you for contacting us regarding this...

Second, after looking at different gears on an engine on a stand, it looks like the rear bank exhaust gear (the 1 different one with the 4 screw holes for mounting the timing trigger blade) does in fact have the timing marks imprinted on them about 2-3 degrees off - seems they are imprinted slightly counter-clockwise from where they should be. The other 3 gears that are the same for the front head and rear head intake cam appear to be pretty close to dead on from what I can see.

That being said, thank you for being this to our attention. We will defintily get with the manufacturer to make sure the timing indicators on the center hub is corrected with regards to its orientation.

Furthermore, we always recommend that you properly degree your engine/cams (which requires adjustable cam gears) to ensure optimal settings.

Also, note that if you deck your heads, that will throw ALL FOUR cams "off" to some degree as the heads are closer to the engine and the tensioner takes up the resultant "slack", thus the overall timing of front bank vs back bank vs crank will change if you are using stock cam gears. Adjustable cam gears give you the ability to counter that change by degreeing the engine.

I put together an animated GIF showing the 4 cam gears mounted on an engine. Camera was on a tripod to ensure the pictures were taken from the exact same angle - watch the center pin to see it doesn't change - then watch the outer edge of the cog to see any variances.

ALSO, let it be noted that I checked the Fidanza cam gears and it looks like they display the same 2-3 degree imprint error, which all 4 are the same on the Fizandas so all 4 cams would be "off" by said amount, and those have been available since about 2002 or so.

http://www.3sx.com/store/catalog/cam...28-ani-800.gif


As for the alignment of the alignment dowel pin versus stock, those are dead on. Like the OP, I bolted the 3SX gear hub to the factory gear (didn't have long enough bolts so removed the outer cog to get the face to face - well back-to-face) and the cam alignment hold is exactly the same - see the 4mm driver slid through both gears as they are bolted together.

http://www.3sx.com/store/catalog/cam...228-03-650.jpg
http://www.3sx.com/store/catalog/cam...228-04-650.jpg


Thank you,
3SX

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keyan

you are right. the video over complicates the solution.

the timing dot just needs to be at 8 teeth instead of 9 teeth. then everything will line up perfectly. I annotated the video with this information


but that's a ghetto solution. it should have been right to begin with

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Hello,
Responding to you separately as what you are seeing is a new one... Yes, your "dot" is actually marked a full tooth off from where it should be. I checked cam gears here and they are all correct (see the images and ani-gif above). Are all 4 of yours this way or just one? Please email me your info and I'll get a replacement gear sent out.
Thank you,
EricB

In a perfect world everything would 100% bolt on, but like Eric said anytime you are changing parts like this you should be degreeing your cams.

the 3 similiar ones are all off a dot. I will need to check the cam sensor gear tomorrow. I purchased these during the recent chrismtas sale.

what is your email, eric?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan92RTTT

While your intent is informative some in the 3S community enjoy bashing 3SX for any reason they can find. Others will jump on the bandwagon for their own gain.

Shooting one of the 3SX guys a note about the issue would at lest have let them research and respond.

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I see what your saying because I am one of those people but for the most part keep my opinions to myself.
The problem is that 3sx probably wouldn't respond anyway.. (much like my sway bar thread) they may give an initial response back to the individual but I'm sorry to say I honestly feel like they would never make it right. People who have purchased these gears need to be aware there is potentially an issue.

I get what you are saying Mark, I'm just saying a heads up message before posting would have been nice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wraith

I had the original 3Sx fidanza gears and they were marked backwards, so it seems there are little issues with all of the iterations of this aftermarket product no matter who is making them. As an engineer, I can only hope that when they have a product R&D'd they have someone in-house that checks the proto-type and gives the ok on production after testing/measuring etc.. i never heard of issues with the unorthodox wheels though....

Thanks

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Now that you mention that I think mine are also. Luckily my buddy Justin was there and noticed they were set the wrong way so we fixed it before I dropped the engine in.

Eric,

Were the results of before and after cam gear install on 3sx website from setting the cam's out of the box to 0,0 and then +1,-3 using gear only, or were they properly degree'd? What were the actual before and after cam hashmark settings for 3sx's test results advertised on their website?

Just FYI to help people whom have purchased them and help 3sx with the most information they can get to help their customers:

As noted earlier I thought I had a set on the engine Greg picked up for me months ago. I was finally able to get into the garage this morning and check it out.

As for the last picture in Eric's post, yes, you can mount the inner of the 3SX rear ex cam gear into a stock rear exh gear. That isn't an issue. But if you attach a complete 3sx rear exh gear set at 0 onto a stock rear exh gear using the 4 timing blade holes (i had long enough bolts to do so) I came to the same issue Greg did, the outer teeth do not line up, they are 2.5 degrees off.

Then I took a stock gear and put in on the engine with valve covers and set it to on time, putting on the 3sx gear set at 0 it was off time by 2.5 degrees. I checked this by putting the 3sx gear on the engine with the bolts on loose. when it was found to be out of time I carefully turned the outer cog until the timing dot matched with the valve cover arrow, then I locked down the two parts with the bolts and pulled the gear off. The set to 0 in time on the engine showed on the 3sx gear as 2.5 degrees advanced.

I tested all 4 3sx gears, it is not just the rear exh timing blade gear, all 4 of them are 2.5 degrees off. This is not a full tooth, it is closer to 1/2 tooth.

Eric, if you need any kind of pictures, video or whatever just let me know. Hopefully this info will help customers get theirs set right. In a perfect world yes, everyone would use a timing wheel and all that, but that requires pulling the engine. Most people most likely just set it at +1 -3 and install and go.

What sux is I have the fidanzas on my car, set at +1 -3 and bolted down so they can't move. Now I got to pull those off and check to see if they are all off :(

-Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ninja Performance

Just FYI to help people whom have purchased them and help 3sx with the most information they can get to help their customers:

As noted earlier I thought I had a set on the engine Greg picked up for me months ago. I was finally able to get into the garage this morning and check it out.

As for the last picture in Eric's post, yes, you can mount the inner of the 3SX rear ex cam gear into a stock rear exh gear. That isn't an issue. But if you attach a complete 3sx rear exh gear set at 0 onto a stock rear exh gear using the 4 timing blade holes (i had long enough bolts to do so) I came to the same issue Greg did, the outer teeth do not line up, they are 2.5 degrees off.

Then I took a stock gear and put in on the engine with valve covers and set it to on time, putting on the 3sx gear set at 0 it was off time by 2.5 degrees. I checked this by putting the 3sx gear on the engine with the bolts on loose. when it was found to be out of time I carefully turned the outer cog until the timing dot matched with the valve cover arrow, then I locked down the two parts with the bolts and pulled the gear off. The set to 0 in time on the engine showed on the 3sx gear as 2.5 degrees advanced.

I tested all 4 3sx gears, it is not just the rear exh timing blade gear, all 4 of them are 2.5 degrees off. This is not a full tooth, it is closer to 1/2 tooth.

Eric, if you need any kind of pictures, video or whatever just let me know. Hopefully this info will help customers get theirs set right. In a perfect world yes, everyone would use a timing wheel and all that, but that requires pulling the engine. Most people most likely just set it at +1 -3 and install and go.

What sux is I have the fidanzas on my car, set at +1 -3 and bolted down so they can't move. Now I got to pull those off and check to see if they are all off :(

-Chris

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Chris, or someone with a degree wheel, can you confirm Greg's timing for actual overlap settings of +1, -3 with the engine you have available?

Should the settings infact be -.5 and +3.5 to achieve an actual +1,-3? Thanks!

Since most people do not have a degree wheel nor are they going to pull their engine to use a degree wheel to install cam gears here is a quick how to get them close enough. First check the adjustable (whatever brand) against a stock cam gear to validate how far off it is.

1. Put on OEM cam gear and turn cam so the timing mark on stock cam gear is on time (arrow on valve cover)
2. Carefully take off OEM cam gear and carefully put on aftermarket adjustable gear with the locking bolts loose.
3. If the timing mark on the aftermarket gear does not line up with the valve cover arrow, Carefully turn the outer cog (DO NOT allow the center cog to turn or allow it to turn the cam).
4. Carefully tighten the locking bolts (2 will be enough to lock it down for now)
5. Remove aftermarket cam gear and look at the degree scale to see how far off it is.
6. If it is at 0 (you didn't move the outer cog) then it's good to go.
7. If it is on any other spot then 0, that is how far it is off either retard or advanced. Where it is set now is tru 0 and you will have to add +1 advance for intake or subtract -3 retard for exhaust.

These numbers are for the known issue which is +2.5 degrees advance built into the adjustable when set at 0.

Adjusting the cam gears that are +2.5 when at 0 would mean that if you set the gear to:
+1 they would be actually timing +3.5
-3 they would actually timing -.5

So "IN THEORY" you would have to set the +2.5 cam to
-1.5 to be at actual timing +1
and
-5.5 to be at actual timing -3

They have an actual 2.5 degrees advance built into them when set to 0

-Chris

Thanks for the info Chris. Been out working on my other engine so I wasn't able to get back to this thread.

I think it is prety sad when a company like 3SX (I have spent thousands with them) cant be bothered to find bolts that are long enough to test the findings properly, when I expect most diy-ers probably could find them in their garrage.
It is all very well to say that if you have adjustable gears you should use a degree wheel to set them up, I agree. But 3SX refused to give me the specs for their 264/272 cams that I used on my rebuild, telling me to just instal them as stock which at the time I thought was not very helpful.
Anyone who is familiar with my build thread will know that 3SX accidentaly sent me two rear inlet cams which took a lot of wasted time for me to find out, this was resolved by them (many thanks) but during the process I found that the picture they show of the dowels on aftermarket cams was incorect this I pointed out in my build thread and an e-mail to them. Sadly this picture on their website is unchanged.
Jeff

I've been looking at getting a set of these, but I'll be using them with aftermarket cams. Am I correct that I would need to degree them in anyway, so this wouldn't matter too much anyway?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gs1000kat

I've been looking at getting a set of these, but I'll be using them with aftermarket cams. Am I correct that I would need to degree them in anyway, so this wouldn't matter too much anyway?

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As long as your cams weren't far enough off that added to the 2.5 degrees they were off you ran out of tick marks on the cam gears. You could always mark them yourself. Unless you get BC cams you shouldn't have a problem with them being off 6-7 degrees like I've seen with those.