This is all very interesting to see. I emailed a couple of the typical coilover mfg's asking for dyno/spec sheets, I doubt I'll get any from them, general consensus is, they're all made in the same plant, including the Tein stuff.
This is all very interesting to see. I emailed a couple of the typical coilover mfg's asking for dyno/spec sheets, I doubt I'll get any from them, general consensus is, they're all made in the same plant, including the Tein stuff.
Honestly, the Megan damping curves look no better than $350 Raceland coilovers. Ignore the forces, that damping is for much softer springs for a Miata. Raceland Dyno Test Results - Miata Turbo Forum - Turbo Kitten is watching you test compression.
Having ridden in a car with Raceland coilovers back to back with Bilstein shocks, the lack of rebound damping is incredibly noticeable. The car feels like it wants to leave the pavement a lot, which can't be good for grip.
^^^^^Ninja Edit^^^^^^
Saw the E-mail and was like:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cYRX_xZ1Xh...is+Picture.jpg
Ya, the first inch everyone seems to forget about the weight of the car but since we're talking specifically shock dynos now I figured I'd keep the curve ball out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fnloud
Well it can be rather forgettable. Giggity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erron Spalsbury
Anyhow, looking forward to the charts for some of the other coil over options. Should see if Apexi has one for their Evo S1s since they're supposed to be fairly comfortable and better handling. Would be interesting to see how it measures up
For quality shocks, it usually steps from OEM straight to something along the lines of Ohlins. The stuff in the middle is usually a downgrade from a healthy OEM setup.
Jason
Only true if 65% critical dampening can not be achieved with valving and spring combinations. Take a look at some of the shock dyno plots and see if the rebound and compression are equal to each other in low speed ie. 3-5 in/sec range. When you take into account the critical dampening equation with spring rates and corner weights if the number falls between 62-68% then you've got yourself a good setup :). Those Fortune Auto shocks actually look pretty good on the soft settings and the reason why the Bilstein's ride so nice... they are rebound and compression matched at 3 in/sec at 65% critical dampening for a full weight car on stock springs ;). The only way to know for sure though is to measure, disassemble, and weigh the suspension and wheels to get the sprung and un-sprung weights, geometry, and the motion ratios. When I calc'd the critical dampening for the Fortune Auto's I determined the spring rate I'd want on a 3/S with that valving is 485 front and 540 rear. Notice the rear spring rate is higher... there is a reason. With some new found knowledge IMO any coilover with a spring rate over 10K that doesn't valve a median at least 220pounds at 3 - 5 in/sec in rebound and compression on our corners isn't 65% critically dampened nor a performance improvement. The secret sauce to coilover setup is 65% critical dampening in both compression and rebound. For the most part only high end dampeners can achieve that because they have independent adjustment for both. However, if you can spec your dampeners to be 65% critically dampened for your specific spring rates then you have something special. Unfortunately, every time the weight distribution, geometry, and un-sprung mass is changed the dampeners need to be re-valved on one ways to maintain balanced critical dampening on the non adjustable side. If you select a dampener MFR with domestic USA support that can custom valve then midlevel coilovers aren't necessarily a downgrade.Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonY
Wow Jeremy good write up on this issue.. Never learned so much about a cars strut system an balance in my life O_o
Ksport wrote me back, it costs $35 bucks to get a dyno sheet, they have to actually test it. They said their circuit pro series comes with a sheet upon purchase.
Here's a dyno sheet of the BC Racing stuff, not sure what for though. It seems most of the dyno sheets available online are a generic, unrelated to a specific shock platform, sheet.Quote:
Originally Posted by KSportUSA
Attachment 5755
Has anyone looked into ISC coilovers? I don't know if many 3000gt people run them but they are quite popular on the subaru platform. I have them in my suby and I really love the way it handles. I'm not a serious track racer though, and I don't know a whole lot about shock dynos. I've just done a few autocrosses for fun. But ISC's are supposively made in MA so maybe they would be willing to work with someone on custom spring rates or dampening. They were able to get me sti coilovers with different top hats for my 98 impreza, and special rear adjustable camber plates.
Shock Dyno Results | ISC Suspension NA
ISC COILOVERS
I was looking up coil overs today and after reading this post I am getting picky.. Reading almost every coilover in my price range was 14k front 10k rear
Those plots look pretty good. 60-70% critically dampened at low speed and 30-40% at high speed. Nice progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfalcon94
Select your tires, weigh your hubs, brakes, lug nuts, wheels, tires (all un-sprung weight) and then corner weigh it and call me bro. Those spring rates aren't right for a performance improvement. I don't think you can spring that high with a street tire. That's DOT slick territory and requires big ass brakes for the grip associated with race comp tires. Select 10/10 springs at most with a street tire and have them valved for 60-70%Cc in low speed and 30Cc in high. You will have to custom order them and do some weighing and measuring. Off the shelf = not right. Might be wise to call Jason Daniels at Vorshlag or Andrew @ GTWorx and have them help you package a setup. We have 0 suspension support for this platform. I sought my answers from Evo, Porsche, and Hyundai suspension engineers and cleared, plowed, and paved my own way. OT = You still in Michigan bro? When you come to visit come see me and scope the fleet, they're ridiculous!Quote:
Originally Posted by 2faststealth4u
Yeah I'm up here decided might as well go to U of M then relocating to Aurora in a few years but ill be that way hopefully in the next few weeks :).. I get on the c3s and troll around a bit ill say hi on there when I do :)Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Fast
And yeah before I purchase any of this ill ring you.. You can buy quality coilovers for a focus but not our platform? Chit is cray
Had my first navigator ride today, DK77, since getting the latest coilovers revalved and fine tuned. I should never have to make another big adjustment unless I put on rain tires. Words can not express how happy I am with the grip and ride feel. Flat turn-in, neutral feel, minimal body roll, grip and power everywhere. I actually wish I would have modded the suspension first now. I
I've two test and tune track days planned for this next week and then it's time to commission for racing.
So what are your final suspension specs then? This is great news!Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Fast
Riding in J's car is ridiculous LOL. He could flick the steering wheel at 75 mph and cut across 3 lanes and the car didn't protest at all. I'm pretty sure had I not been buckled in he could have thrown me out the window just with the G-forces he could pull doing a hard corner at pretty much any speed he wanted. Unfortunately now I'm going to drive my car and just be like what the hell, this handles terrible compared to that haha.
WinGeo geometry yielded .85 motion ratio for the front and .96 for the rears. The springs I selected based on my corner weights, corner un-sprung weights, suspension travel, aero considerations, and tire selections were 628lb rear and 600lb front. My setup is digressive/digressive in compression/rebound and 65% critically dampened at 3in/sec. Tire is a BFG R1 Road Race. Stock sway bar in the front, stock bar in the rear. + 3/F 2/R camber, 0 toe, + 2 caster. Don't mind sharing, means nothing without explicit knowledge of my setup, internal shock shim-stack configurations, and knob positions... my setup is unique. One last thing... Big thanks is due to Peter Zlamany at SCR Performance for fielding questions and teaching me hands on how to optimize race suspensions. Guy spent some serious time working with me until wee hours of the night to help track prepare and test, and most importantly understand my data acquisition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
From now on I'm calling the company before ordering. So the whole 10k front 12k rears worked well then.. Hmm maybe even 12front 14 backs
Might be a little drift car biased with a rear spring that hard and no aero or rake with a stock sway bar. Equal spring rates puts you in the ballpark for neutral handling. Really depends on each setup... 742lb rear springs might work well with no rear sway. Best grip scenario is no sways and some compensation for droop on a spring divider and compensation for it in the shocks. Independent 4 wheel suspension is very compliant. I've tried 5 sets of dampeners, 12 sets of springs, sways, no sways, helper springs, dual rate spring setup, single knob dampeners, dual knob shocks, 3 knob adjustable shocks, 4 OEM shock/spring combos and several variations of brake and wheel/tire combo's. Kinda got a real good picture of okay/good/better/best and how each grips and what I like.
So essentially best bet it get as close to even as possible? So 10-11k fronts and same for the rear
I'm going with 11k front and rear when I get my coilovers, which should be soonQuote:
Originally Posted by 2faststealth4u
... more testing and weight work at SCR today and we nut and bolted for the track. We also installed these trick camber bolts designed right here in Ft. Collins, Colorado. I was able to take the camber to -4 degrees with them in the full clocked position. With aftermarket camber plates and OEM bolts maxed the largest camber I could achieve was a little over -2.5 degrees with the pilot bearings and bolts maxed. $28 for and additional -1.5 degrees of camber worked out great!
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/y...ps7a1aca43.jpg
Fifth and final trip to the alignment rack and scales...
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/y...psafed4488.jpg
Here's my final alignment spec's for race day with this tire compared to my initial settings from a month ago.
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/y...ps443c7854.jpg
Fronts:
+4.5 Caster
-3.0 Camber
0 Toe
+1.0" Track width
Rear:
-2.15 Camber
0 Toe
0 Thrust
+1.0" Track width
Wheelbase increase .5"
Corner weights are biased approximately 58/42 front to rear, 50/50 left to right, and 50/50 on the diagnals.
FYI, those bolts are pretty trick for camber increase for you aftermarket guys looking to score more camber when you don't have a camber adjustment shouder like OEM shocks use.
For an idea of where I'm at on weight... approx 3500lbs with me in it and a fulll tank of gas with a full interior.
Another cage is in the works :).
Eibach sells that exact part (the camber bolt). I have ran them for years with my n/a and turbo.
What are your alignment settings?Quote:
Originally Posted by R/T93
3374lbs empty... 3560lbs with me in it. http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/y...ps9747768a.jpg
I have a bunch of those bolts, I would have given you mine. They'll turn on ya while on track and slip.
Why did you blank out your secondary specs? Looks like Pete did the alignment, tell us what's up.
Making a 2nd cage? Should have cage this car to begin with! LOL Details? What about the race car? No more street car for you then?
Any ideas how I would go about getting some 'crash bolts' made for a different platform? My mazdaspeed3 needs them horribly and mazdaspeed motorsports basically said im SOL.
So J, how much total are you into for your suspension at this point?
The bolts are good, they have a lockout tab and shouldn't rotate but we'll see on Friday. I like thw idea because the don't impact the front swing arm and roll center position as dramatically as shifting the camber plates. The adjustment is clser to the hub so the roll angle stays closer to the ground. I covered up the lower geometry as I think thats a service that should be paid for as It gives up the ghost on my setup. This will be racecar #2. Gave you the skInny over the phone....Quote:
Originally Posted by Erron Spalsbury
Oh! Ya, I didn't use the tab's on mine, I couldn't get them over far enough with the tabs in place. I've heard you can drill additional holes for the locking tabs but didn't want to drill the JIC's. :w00t:Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Fast
$2500 per car average. Everything I'm bolting on is used and rebuilt to my spec from racecars on evolutionm. I did pay 5K for two sets of JRZ's worth 15K. My third set which is Muellerized JIC's were $1400 with respring and revalve. Add in there $1,000 or less in misc hardware, corner balancing, alignments, fitting all 3 sets and advanced training on shock rebuilds and optimizing suspensions.Quote:
Originally Posted by sergechronos
I would contact SCR, they have a good relationship with that crash bolt mfr. They might even have them in stock. Number is on the alignment sheet.Quote:
Originally Posted by vroom4
Impressive..And these are still streetable for you? Had been looking at dropping around 2k into the Apexi S1 set up from SCE, but wouldn't mind paying another grand or so for the performance you seem to have wrung out of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Fast
DEFINITELY, you can do whatever you want with them because they're rebuildable and the springs are hella cheap! There's really good deals to be had at Evolutionm for unilateral parts. A setup I keep eyeballing is a triple adjustable KW Robispec Rally Suspension selling for $3500 right now. It's easily a $10,000 setup (total baller setup) and would handle like a dream wherever you employed it. It's the same setup 7 of the top 10 finishing teams at Pikes Peak Hill Climb used.Quote:
Originally Posted by sergechronos
I ran some S1's a few years ago. I really didn't know much about suspensions back then so I yardsale'd them. I will say if I purchase another performance car in the future my first upgrades will be brakes, suspension, tires and corner balance/alignment. A good setup is enlightening.
That had been my plan until my motor crapped out. Went with 13Ts during the rebuild, will be switching to E85 in a couple months and then get the suspension components right. Bright side of it all though is at the time I would've just shelled out for the S1s and adapters, and had no idea about how it actually works. Won't be a drag race monster, but should make for a much improved streetcar that doesn't handle like a 20 year old car..Need to get off my ass and get to making poly bushings.
Here's BC Racings dyno's, They're opposite of Megans, These are suppose to be specific to our platform for the AWD, as when I requested them, I gave them the part number. So, out of all the different "tuner suspensions" Megan and BC Racing are the only two who've supplied dyno graphs. BC will take custom requests, and ships all coilovers with dyno's matched at 5%. There's a lot of good reviews from other platforms, one being an NSX club and SCION. These are what I'm going to be going with, with a 11k/11k setup, valved to match. We'll see how they turn out...anything is going to be better than 20 year old stock suspension.
Attachment 5777Attachment 5778
Nihil,
I am definitely not a suspension guru, but what I have going on with my new ECS struts is very nice and performed very well at NG.
Yeah, I looked into that as well, and I'm goin with a full coilover setup instead. I'm really interested in seeing what a properly set up tunes suspension setup will do, I also want to go lower than what stock can adequately provide.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fnloud
A well done coil over system (read: J's) should exceed the capabilities of the stock system in terms of handling, response and comfort. The stock ECS system is highly capable though and not a bad system all together, but it definitely isn't as low as it could be, and putting lowering springs on it tends to wear it out. Factor in the high cost of replacement, not really a bad idea to swap to coilovers.