Need advise td04 or td05?

Please look at my wife's car in the "Garage" forum. It's the pearl yellow 95 ("igofast"). The engine is virtually identical to yours except her's has stock cams/springs and +1mm intake and exhaust valves. It was originally a WRX converted 19T engine. It made 535 on pump gas/meth spray. It has 680 injectors and an AEM standalone and wide band O2 set up. Biggest difference in our set ups is the fuel system. Her car has dual Walbros and stainless lines and an Aeromotive AFPR.

Just before the engine was transplanted into her car, it was converted to 16Gs. Absolutely nothing changed except the manifolds/turbos/O2 housings. The 598 AWTQ and 609 AWHP it now makes is on a very mild tune at 24 psi boost. The difference is the 19Ts just couldn't hold 23 psi past about 5300 RPM. This is primarily a function of the TD04 exhaust side flow potential. The 16Gs hold 24 psi all the way to redline (7200). In fact, the 16Gs will hold 29+ psi to redline. At 29 psi, the power potential is over 650 AWHP, but the 680 injectors probably won't support that much boost or power.

The biggest reason for the 16G conversion was future turbo maintenance. If a 16G fails, just get another 16G. It's a stock turbo and requires no modification whatsoever (after the initial installation mods). A modified turbo failure (beyond wear part replacement) requires another turbo modified in exactly the same way (often by the original vendor). That translates into additional time and/or cost.

As for thermal control issues, I had just as many issues with the 19Ts as the 16Gs. The primary problem is air flow blockage caused by the FMIC. A Koyo (or equivalent) is required, and I used two stock driver's side fans, wired with a relay to turn both fans on whenever the AC is on. The only time I have thermal issues is in temps over 90 degrees while running the AC at low speeds/in traffic. Engine doesn't overheat, but the AC has issues and that leads to engine idle/intermittent misfire problems.

But the ability to blow the doors off virtually everything in town (including most Vipers and Corvettes) is worth a few minor inconveniences. Even with all stock interior and at full weight it's a true 10 second car.

Just my 1.5 cents worth.

I have delete a/c!!:) so I will look more likely in td05 kit- not sure yet

The 16g car i built was driven over 30k miles a year hence why it needed to function like a stock car. I try to build everything to that level in reliability and usability. Car wasnt lowered, was driven all winter and all summer with lots of time spent sitting in traffic.

Just stating my experiences between 16g's and the 750's. I honestly dont think a 16g car has anything for a 750 car until you REALLY pushed the 16g's. Todds car would spin all 4 in 3rd gear at 30psi on the highway, spiked to 32-33psi a couple times when tuning the EBC with the new WG springs.

Cant go wrong with either, just comes down to how much work you wanna do!

Jason

serious? TD04 anyday...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JasonY

I never said it couldnt be done, if i had that extra 1/2 liter of displacement, MTC's 16's are hands down the way to go. Just spent around 60hrs in "extra" work(would only take 10 now that i know what to do) to button the 16g car up as nicely as a properly assembled td04 car.

But with a 3L engine with the average guy assembling his car in the garage, the advtantage of basically having a stock(assembly) engine with a FMIC tacked on his a MUCH higher probability of success and being able to enjoy the car pretty trouble free.

Good news is, you wont make a mistake choosing either, just know the 16g's will involve more work/effort but if you really want to wring the car out, it is worth it.

Jason

---

60 additional hours for 16gs??????? You must drink a lot while working. Water lines are simple with td05 banjos. Oil return lines are a bit of a hassle with the 3sx kit but would be cake if assembling yourself.

My 3sx downpipe fitment was crap, but everything else wasn't bad. Other kits are probably better. Hell, if you really wanted to spend $3500 plus $300 for billet wastegates on DR750's, I would definitely spend 5ish on DR800/900s and have plenty of room for an easy upgrade later.

I'm not saying there is a huge difference in the newer TD04 set ups and the 16Gs. I am saying if you trash a stock 16G, it is likely to be quicker/cheaper to replace it than replacing a modified TD04. That may not be true anymore with some of the newer high end TD04 turbos; I don't know if they are stocked or how long their turn around time is. The other factor is a little less obvious and no one ever wants to admit it applies to them. But, after 50 years of "hotrodding", one thing I believe 10000% is that no one who says "all I want is 'x' AWHP and I'll be happy stays happy at "x" AWHP. Everyone I've ever known who is into "hotrodding" follows the same pattern: 1. Set a goal that will be "all I will ever want". 2. Achieve goal in #1. 3. Enjoy car for a period of time (period varies, usually from a few minutes to several months. Average is about 45 days). 4. Set new goal that will be "all I will ever" want. And so on. And the point is that 16Gs allow at least two cycles of goal achievement before the turbos/exhaust will need to be revisited/replaced. And the turbo/exhaust set up is the heart of performance in a turbo car. Once the engine internals and heads have been "fully built", the turbos/supporting mods pretty much determine how much power you can make.
All of this is my OPINION. My opinion may be valid or invalid in your particular case. It is based on a fair amount of personal experience, both in "hotrodding" in general and the TD04 vs TD05 in this platform.
Just my 1.5 cents worth.

i have to agree with milt. mhi 16g's are cheaper than 750's. regardless though, the "creeping demands" of a gearhead tend to make it a good idea to build a system with room to spare.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BaadVR4

I'm not saying there is a huge difference in the newer TD04 set ups and the 16Gs. I am saying if you trash a stock 16G, it is likely to be quicker/cheaper to replace it than replacing a modified TD04. That may not be true anymore with some of the newer high end TD04 turbos; I don't know if they are stocked or how long their turn around time is. The other factor is a little less obvious and no one ever wants to admit it applies to them. But, after 50 years of "hotrodding", one thing I believe 10000% is that no one who says "all I want is 'x' AWHP and I'll be happy stays happy at "x" AWHP. Everyone I've ever known who is into "hotrodding" follows the same pattern: 1. Set a goal that will be "all I will ever want". 2. Achieve goal in #1. 3. Enjoy car for a period of time (period varies, usually from a few minutes to several months. Average is about 45 days). 4. Set new goal that will be "all I will ever" want. And so on. And the point is that 16Gs allow at least two cycles of goal achievement before the turbos/exhaust will need to be revisited/replaced. And the turbo/exhaust set up is the heart of performance in a turbo car. Once the engine internals and heads have been "fully built", the turbos/supporting mods pretty much determine how much power you can make.
All of this is my OPINION. My opinion may be valid or invalid in your particular case. It is based on a fair amount of personal experience, both in "hotrodding" in general and the TD04 vs TD05 in this platform.
Just my 1.5 cents worth.

---

you right-after short period time i will want more hp,its just never stop :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by familyMAN

60 additional hours for 16gs??????? You must drink a lot while working. Water lines are simple with td05 banjos. Oil return lines are a bit of a hassle with the 3sx kit but would be cake if assembling yourself.

My 3sx downpipe fitment was crap, but everything else wasn't bad. Other kits are probably better. Hell, if you really wanted to spend $3500 plus $300 for billet wastegates on DR750's, I would definitely spend 5ish on DR800/900s and have plenty of room for an easy upgrade later.

---

I think Jason was saying that because there's a sequence you have to follow when installing things. You could get 2 hours into it and "oops" forgot to put on that part. You say to yourself, "I could hack it in there, or take it all apart and do it right to perfection." You just burned 2 hrs, plus the time to take it all off, plus the time to put it all back. Sad to say you get a little further and it happens all over again, say in between you find out you need parts and have a 1 hr store trip. Theres also a lot of shave this, shave that, bend this, bend that, move this, relocate that... remove and reinstall, check fitment, remove, fix, and reinstall, it's time consuming!

Don't forget some people are also anal about their tools. They clean up and put everything away at the end of each day. Setup and breakdown of a work station is time consuming unless you use a service cart. I could see how it could take a whole week the first time. Once you establish a learning curve and a parts list I could see how you could easily do it in a full day tho.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BaadVR4

I'm not saying there is a huge difference in the newer TD04 set ups and the 16Gs. I am saying if you trash a stock 16G, it is likely to be quicker/cheaper to replace it than replacing a modified TD04. That may not be true anymore with some of the newer high end TD04 turbos; I don't know if they are stocked or how long their turn around time is. The other factor is a little less obvious and no one ever wants to admit it applies to them. But, after 50 years of "hotrodding", one thing I believe 10000% is that no one who says "all I want is 'x' AWHP and I'll be happy stays happy at "x" AWHP. Everyone I've ever known who is into "hotrodding" follows the same pattern: 1. Set a goal that will be "all I will ever want". 2. Achieve goal in #1. 3. Enjoy car for a period of time (period varies, usually from a few minutes to several months. Average is about 45 days). 4. Set new goal that will be "all I will ever" want. And so on. And the point is that 16Gs allow at least two cycles of goal achievement before the turbos/exhaust will need to be revisited/replaced. And the turbo/exhaust set up is the heart of performance in a turbo car. Once the engine internals and heads have been "fully built", the turbos/supporting mods pretty much determine how much power you can make.
All of this is my OPINION. My opinion may be valid or invalid in your particular case. It is based on a fair amount of personal experience, both in "hotrodding" in general and the TD04 vs TD05 in this platform.
Just my 1.5 cents worth.

---

I couldn't agree more, When I first did My 3SX non MHI TD05 16G conversion I was only boosting at 1bar due to having a standard 2bolt mk1 TT lump & running arround 480bhp with an engine that sensibly has a safe running limit of 450BHP.
Now that I have a fully forged botom end I have gone to 20G's and the only limit is going to be head lift.
BTW with the selling price of non MHI 16G's now they are almost a throw away Turbo, the CHRA's are next to nothing to replace.

Although I have had to re-tig weld My rear 3SX manifold, I think it is more due to a duff rear engine mount slamming the turbo & external wastegate into the bulkhead on take off rather than any fault in the manifold, And I recal a felow UK member buying the IPS kit & complaining about the poor fit and the fact that there were a few bits missing when he received it, not good when You are on the other side of the Atlantic.

Another thing to note about the so-called crap Chinese non MHI turbo's that I had, when I installed the kit I neglected to fit the domed washer that the wastegate's seal against in the exhaust so basicaly the wastegate's were partialy open all the time.
The poor turbo's must of been working overtime to make 1bar of boost & were perfectly ok until I lost the top land off of piston 5 & trashed them.
Check My build thread out in the signature for more info.
Jeff:coo3l: