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I would love to do something like that but it won't happen anytime soon. Need a motor in my car first to make that happen. Working on dropping the motor in my '97 right now but that has DR turbos in it. Once that's all done and running I can start on my Spyder which will have a TD04 setup (DR750's) and DN Performance pipes :)
But if there's a demand I'll make it happen. But let's get these SMIC's done first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
Mounting brackets designed and ordered..
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps05a1f5fd.jpg
Good work. These are looking like a quality option.
Little update......The new updated passenger top end cap shipped and it should be delivered today. Now just waiting on the mounting brackets which should ship out Friday so I'll have them Monday.
Looks like it's all starting to come together. Sorry it's taking so long.
Should have pricing in a few days which at that time I'll start a new thread. But a quick estimate it looks like it's going to be some where around $850-$880 + shipping for the standard orm setup.
No thoughts on the ducting but it looks like the oem ones should work just fine with my setup.
That is GREAT pricing!!
I'm excited.. : ]
Question is.. go with stock and be a sleeper or go with the DNP size and try and utilize every pony I can..
Decisions.. Decisions..
Try finding DNP hard pipes.
My question is, what gains can be had with different pipe diameters when it chokes back down to the stock throttle body? I can only assume it would affect your power band more than total hp gains?
I'll see if I can do some math for it to find gains vs losses.
I have a set sitting in my living room at the moment. People wanting to low ball for quality parts have lead me to horde over the years.. lol.
I see, I don't recall ever seeing a set for sale during my time here, that is something I would of bought.
I have managed to get some nice parts thus far
TEC Performance front bar
TEC Performance rear bar
Saner sway bars
Cianci 96 Stealth Spoiler
2" piping can handle 500cfm while staying below 300mph (around where airflow becomes turbulent) and is at about 260ish mph.
Stock piping at 1 5/8" actually only handles about 300cfm before air becomes turbulent.
Assuming stock throttle body is 60mm (don't have my caliper up here to measure the opening) the speed of 1000CFM (total of 2 cores supporting 500cfm each) is 350+mph and would be turbulent. A 70mm throttle body would allow 1000cfm of flow at about 270mph.
In short, 2" is about the sweet spot with stock TB. For cores that can flow 700CFM-800CFM each though, you'd want about 2.5" piping to maximize it with a 3.5" Y pipe and TB inlet (assuming you have the turbos to match it.)
How would 1 3/4" piping flow which is what I'd be offering for the most part. This is probably what 90% of what people would need.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sergechronos
I'm not a smart person so I'm going to need a little help understanding.. Sorry. Lol.
So since our stock 9bs flow roughly 275CFM each, our stock piping works rather well for the designed application since it keeps its under the 300mph turbulence area.
http://www.stealth316.com/images/td04-09b-cfm.gif
Now say a larger flowing turbo such as a EvoIII 16G/DR750 which flow quite a bit more, the 2 inch piping would be more ideal as it keeps the flow at around 260mph give or take.
http://www.stealth316.com/images/td05hr-16g6-cfm.gif
However when the two are combined at the y pipe and go into the throttle body, the combined flow into the throttle body can become turbulent again as our stock 60mm with 1000CFM flows at 350+mph. Now the same flow at a 70mm throttle body would drop it down to roughly 270ish which puts it back in the ideal range.
If its not too much trouble, could you explain the math? I'm interested in learning more about this. Or if there's a formula to figure this stuff out, that would work too.
So most of our billet cars would actually benefit from running 2" piping and a larger throttle body. In theory, even 2.25 would be beneficial for those running maxed out billet setups which flow higher than 500CFM each?
Would doing something like this be beneficial? I thought about it years ago but I remember most people disregarding it as a waste of money when I asked years ago.
6G 72 Turbo Throttle Body Rebuild
1.75" piping (assuming ID?) can do about 430cfm (roughly 15Gs) before air starts to become exceedingly turbulent. The stock throttle body (at 60mm diameter) would be at about 320mph which is just over what we would want to see. That said, we have seen guys put up big numbers with turbos flowing more than that with stock piping (Ray's DR650 car for instance) however engineering says that they would actually see gains from bigger IC piping and cores at that point, and upgraded TB and potentially intake manifold, although I believe the inlet on the IM is slightly larger than 60mm but would need someone to measure it.Quote:
Originally Posted by oohnoo
A throttle body rebuild is always beneficial as our seals tend to harden and crack and allow air to escape. Contact dbest on the forums to get yours rebuilt, think it's less than 135 as well but not sure. It definitely is worth it so that you're getting all the air your turbos are pumping.Quote:
Originally Posted by vTaKwiTHsLiCkS
As far as the piping size, it goes back to what happens inside of pipes. Airflow becomes very turbulent and starts to experiences losses that increase exponentially once air speed goes past .4 mach (which is around 305mph.) With each turbo producing 275CFM (for a total of 550CFM when merged back together) the stock piping is fine and the stock TB is plenty sufficient. However, yes once running 15Gs or 16Ts you are at the upper limit for what the pipes and TB can handle without hitting that point, I'd say that probably has quite a bit to do with why you get somewhat diminishing returns on turbos past that point without upgrading your intercoolers. I'd be interested to see what Ray might put down with his DR650 car upping just the intercoolers, then upping the ICs and piping. He'd still bottleneck at the TB a bit, but would be interesting. By the time you're running DR650s or E3 16Gs (where you're seeing over 500cfm at 20psi with room for more boost) you're well past the turbulent area.
Keep in mind though, this is forced induction so these things are not quite as detrimental for us as they would be if an NA were capable of moving 1000CFM of airflow and tried to do it through 60mm piping. It is still an inefficiency that should be minimized if possible though. I wouldn't go bigger than 2" hot side piping if I was Bob though simply because very few owners would be able to use it so there's no sense spending the money developing it.
As to the math for going from CFM to MPH:
Divide the CFM by the cross sectional area of piping (pi x r^2), multiply by 60 (number of minutes in an hour) and divide by 5280 (number of feet in a mile).
Example:
275 cfm to MPH in 1.75" piping
1.75" = .1458'
radius = .1458'/2= .072916
radius squared = .00532 ft^2
r^2 * pi = .01669
275 / = 275/.01669 = 16476.93
114.39 *60 = 988615.8
988615.8 / 5280 = 187.238mph
500cfm to mph in 1.75" piping
500/.01669 = 29958.06 *60=1797483.52 / 5280 = 340.43
Ray has DR750's and DNPerformance piping. The large SMIC's I'm making for him will have 2" piping. Hoping to have them in his hands by next Saturday.
Will 2" be a option?
Or are we waiting to see what 2" piping will net using Rays car as the test subject?
I'm running DR650s with stock piping, stock TB, and stock SMIC. I've been able to get 400whp on 91 and 450whp on 101 octane running down to 10.5 AFR to try to keep intake temps down. I hit around 16 psi and 18 psi respectively before I get limited by knock. I believe the SMIC is my biggest bottleneck in performance right now. My plan is to get Oohnoo's SMIC and see if I can push to higher levels without knock, leaning it out to 11 AFR as well. I also have a Z06 + MAFT in case I'm limited there. But I do think I'm in prime position to show the gains from stock to much bigger SMIC :bigthumb:
Yes 2" will be an option. Ray's only going with the 2" cause he wants as much flow as possible to get the most out of his turbo's as he's shooting for 700+ which we're hoping these will give him that.
You have to remember the hard part about all this was designing the end caps for both side and also the brackets to mount them. Now that I have that all designed and made the pipes are the easy part. I already have jigs made for all this from converting DSM IC's which believe it or not still get lots of requests to make.
Prices will vary accordingly.
Standard configuration for most people will be SMIC's with 1 3/4" piping with 1 5/8" adapters welded on the ends for oem setups with end caps welded on the outside only.
Then you have these Options:
SMIC's with 1 3/4" piping for DNP or CXRacing piping - no adapters
SMIC's with 1 3/4" short pipes welded on, can be straight or semi curved as seen in pics below
SMIC's with 2" piping for DNP or CXRacing piping with 1 3/4" adapters welded onto the ends like my DualCore setup. even though the DNP pipes are 2" they taper down to 1 3/4".
SMIC's with 2" piping for DNP or CXRacing piping with no adapter on ends -
SMIC's with 1 3/4" short pipes welded on, can be straight or semi curved as seen in pics below
SMIC's with 2" short pipes welded on, can be straight or semi curved as seen in pics below. Reason for difference is the end caps are cut for a 1 3/4" hole. I would then have to enlarge them for the 2" pipe.
End caps welded both inside and outside. For the most part all the after market end caps I've seen have only been welded on the outside. But if you want the extra reinforcement I am offering this option.
My end caps are made with 1 3/4" holes for that size piping, so using 2" piping I'll have to enlarge them will will be an added expense. Just have to figure how long it will take me to enlarge the holes which will determine the extra cost. Same with the other options....added welded adapters etc.
You also have to remember if going with 2" piping that the opening on the drivers side will have to be enlarged.
If anyone needs anything different please let me know as I can custom make it for you. But basically all orders will be custom made for your piping needs using the Bell cores (8" x 4.5" x 8.1:) and the end caps I designed.
PIC WITH SHORT PIPES. Can be either 1 3/4" or 2"
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...psfdygr7xg.jpg
PIC OF END CAP
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps7cfe8535.jpg
PIC OF MY CONVERTED DSM IC's WITH 1 3/4" PIPING....THIS IS WHAT THE PIPES WILL LOOK LIKE FOR EITHER 1 3/4" OEM SETUPS OR 2" DPN SETUPS
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...psoeqvexel.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fnloud
Thank you for the reply.
I added the throttle body rebuild link because there's a bore service further down the page. The guy is well known on the DSM forums and he offers boring out the throttle body from 60mm to 63mm. And also offers a half-shaft option that will flow like a 65mm. Not cause I was wondering about replacing o rings. It is good advice to make sure your throttle body is in good condition though. Lol.
Bob.. Just wondering if you ever considered making a piping kit for our cars? Seeing how DNP no longer are available and you have the know how and do quality work, seems like it would be a great addition to your line of amazing parts. I only ask as I've considered getting a copy of my DNP piping kit made because I feel bad powdercoating the shiny steel pipes and have contemplated this many times. Also I'd like a set of 2 inch please when you're ready. : ]
I had my TB rebuilt and bored out by them years ago. Hard to tell the difference really. Just had it rebuilt and polished by April (dbest) and.....lets just say she did a much better job of rebuilding it. :)
Making pipes for this has always been in the back of my mind. I also have a set of DNP pipes for my Spyder but I need to get it up and running first, once it is then I can test fit things on it. But I have a feeling these will keep me busy for some time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vTaKwiTHsLiCkS
Can you say oem fitment :)
Passenger side all done, mocked up and the jig made for the mounting brackets locations and all the piping. Just have to finished welding the pipe on as it was just tacked on in a couple places.
This was the difficult side and I must say it fits perfectly using all three oem mounting locations. Couple of things that have to be done to make it fit though and are no biggies really. First thing is the ABS metal shield that's on the bottom of it has to be cut right along where it bends, I"ll see if I can take a pic of an oem one tomorrow from my '97 to give you an idea. It cuts real easy or you might even be able to just bend it out of the way, not sure as had already cut it. No wise cracks on the rusty ABS please. And the other thing is the bottom mounting bracket uses a stud with nut instead the oem bolt that I'll be supplying as it's located under the intercooler. Oh and did I mention I did all this with the bumper ON THE CAR! Still have to test fit the air ducts but they should just slip right in there without anything holding them, did this on my DSM IC's back in the day. This "may" require removing the bumper, not sure, not worried about it as it's your call whether or not to do it.
Working one the drivers side tomorrow and I should have them finished in a day or two as those are a piece of cake compared to the passenger side.
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...psd1be4954.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps46451d8c.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps095ed2e2.jpg
Awesome!!!!!
looks awesome
Can't wait to get them!!
Oh Sexy Time.. These will be a nice edition to my stock-ish build.
Would getting larger ducts fabbed up be a possibility Bob? Not sure how I feel about trying to cool these monsters with such small ducting.
Not really necessary and it'll be an added expense. I think it's only a matter of 1" top and bottom. I'll take some pics this weekend to show you. Beside it should be easy enough to do yourself really. Basically what you would want to do is split them on both sides from back where they meet the IC to almost the front. Then just spread it apart which will create a "V", and then either use duct tape or ABS material to fill in the gap. I'll post up a "How-To" with pics when I have a chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sergechronos
Awesome work! I'm in for a pair when they are ready.
Beautiful work (as always) Bob!!!
Bob. :)
Good news, this just gets better and better.
The oem ducting fits perfectly in there without any modification. OEM cores are 7" in height and mine is 8" so the difference is only 1/2" top and bottom. I'll just have to fab up some mounting tabs for them to mate up to.
AND.......for the oil cooler I made some extension brackets that pickup all 3 mounting positions and more it back about an inch and down an inch also. Could make it further away but I don't see no reason to.
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps6ab9a790.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...pscd75b0c1.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...psf0182b20.jpg
Amazing!!!
No more questions. You have proven your case :)
I will make someone a hellova deal on an ETS if they have some dnp pipes! :suspect:
Why hunt for that? I do not see any reason Bob could not make the piping his next venture, even it is taking the CXRacing kit and finding out what needs to be altered to make THAT kit fit like a glove.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoopKill
Tweaking the CXRacing kit is actually not a bad idea especially if the kit could be bought from CXRacing at a reduced price without the couplers. The quality of pipes is not bad and most of them fit quite well. The only pipe I modified was one of the pre-trubo intake pipes which I had to shorten about 4 cm.
The couplers on the other hand is another story, I ended up using only two of them the rest had to be replaced for various reasons.
I wouldn't even need the pre-turbo intake pipes. I want black couplers and CXRacing only offers blue and red. I could see needing a pipe made for that funky "elephant trunk" looking pipe that I think is for the driver side sine mount.
It looks like that tappers from 2" to the 1.75"
Looks like we're ready to Rock-n-Roll :coo3l:
http://www.3sgto.org/parts-sale/1459...tml#post293551