:rolleyes:
chris is going turncoat from the days of being a fan of the panda.
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:rolleyes:
chris is going turncoat from the days of being a fan of the panda.
What did it run in the 1/4?
Are you asking me?Quote:
Originally Posted by SOHC
At my car's fastest ever, it ran 15.7. It consistantly ran 15.8-16.2 every time down the track, regardless of what other mods I had, or how I was launching.
I went through several different exhaust setups, headers, manifold and downpipe, MSD DIS-4, and a few other things, and the car never ever went faster than 15.7.
It was pretty disappointing for the money I invested. I'd never do an ATX sports car ever again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitedragon
Yeah I meant to quote you.
Dang thats slower then I thought it would be do you remember what it trapped? Do you think ATX and MTX are about the same from a roll? I think it might be the first gear that messes up the ATX its too damn long.
If my trans goes you think it wold be cheaper to do a 5 speed swap or rebuild (around $2000).
and this is why the ATX gets such a bad rap on this platform. i love it when people take what happens with ONE SPECIFIC CAR and generalize it to every car, ever made. yes, 3s n/a atx is SLOW. that's a specific setup on one specific model of car. you cannot extrapolate the performance of a mclaren SLR from that.Quote:
Originally Posted by whitedragon
if you are disappointed with the results, you should have saved the extensive trial & error with different setups & gone straight for a tt conversion. it's already a well-documented fact that n/a mods for the 3/s are nigh worthless (save nitrous). there's INFINITELY more bang for the buck with swapping in stock vr4 forced induction parts. if you're pissed about a cost/benefit; blame the fact that you thought the additional .5L would fix everything--rather than going for some 9b's or better. the fault is in how you went about it, NOT with the transmission you used.
if you prefer a mtx; then do a swap. if you prefer an atx; rebuild it. if you're indifferent; go with whatever is cheaper.Quote:
Originally Posted by SOHC
of course....in this case, the FWD mtx is made of balsa-wood and glass. you really need an awd > fwd converted one. either way though, the atx trans's are cheaper. some by a WIDE margin. if you feel mechanically inclined, an ATX rebuild by yourself isn't that difficult. the internals are identical to those on DSM's, and there is a LOT of knowledge and support for it in that community (unlike the unwarranted negativism that it gets in the 3/s community). you can buy everything you need to make a VERY sturdy atx for less than 2k. less than 1k if you decide to keep the stock converter. all it really needs to "shine" is some upgraded clutch packs, upgraded end clutch, a shift kit, a trans cooler, and a secondary filter (magnetic).
i don't know what all was done to whitedragon's "built ipt transmission". i also don't know anything about how he launched it, what his converter stall is, or anything. regardless, hooked to an n/a 6g7x...it's going to be relatively slow; and yes, the mtx will be faster. but that gap between them (.5-1.0 seconds in stock form) all but disappears when you start talking about forced induction and a properly modded atx. there is a reason dsm atx's are running in the 8's regularly.
i'm not going to argue for or against your personal decision to keep or replace your atx. i do think you need to have all the FACTS before you do it--not biased, jaded anecdotes--which is what my blog entry is about. i'll also point out that until critical mass was reached for the 4th gear output shaft, the ATX in T4 was regularly trumping the MTX in the 1/4. take that for what it's worth. yes, it has an achilles heel. if you plan to have your car make > 800whp, then perhaps that's a legitimate gripe. but let's be honest. we can probably count the number of 3/s owners with >800whp without even taking our socks off.
p.s.
my fwd-tt (as it WAS but is no longer) with 9b's and 8psi ran dead even with a modded GTI turbo mtx in the 1/4. no wideband, no datalogger; no tt-ecu. and that was with an 8:1 engine. i could probably have busted mid 13's on a 10:1 and 13g's with some good engine monitoring.
my new setup will be 3.5L twin 16g setup running ~18psi. i expect low 11's-high 10's. and that's WITH the atx (awd).
While the ATX isn't bad for low hp setups, I would prefer the MTX.
-Chris
The mtx has lower drivetrain loss, and if you have two cars with the same power and comparable gearing but unequal losses, the car with lower losses will be faster. The only way to make the atx faster would be change the gearing which is a stupid move on a car that isn't drag strip dedicated. And a drag strip dedicated NA atx car is just stupid imo, its like picking a bmx bike for the Tour de France.
If you have the reasources to do an mtx 3.5L setup you will enjoy it more than an atx setup. Of the multiple 3.5L NA cars I have worked on and ridden in the mtx cars are faster. Faster than a 3.5L with a stock NA atx and faster than a 3.5L with a built 'race' transmission from these guys:
MITSUBISHI | EAGLE | DSM Performance Automatic Transmissions
And Inperctdarkness, if its lame to use a single car as an example why did you turn around and do it yourself????????
i havent ridden in any atx 3.5, but i can say if you do swap over to mtx you will not be disspointed coupled with the 3.5.
If I remember, my traps were always between 89-93mph, regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by SOHC
Wow, who's jaded? And FYI, I had my car since '05, and xwire swapped the 3.5L in '06. We never set out to make a track monster, but through trial and error of the 3.5, and regular maintenance etc, I just had alot of different setups on my car. I never claimed to be creating a killer, it just happened that we went through alot of different things through the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by inperfectdarkness
For example, the 3.5L broke my trans, so xwire suggested I have IPT do the full rebuild on it with all the bells and whistles, so we did that. The 3.5 rubbed on the stock manifolds and downpipe, so xwire suggested headers that would have more clearance. After we did that and it sounded terrible and destroyed my lower end torque, he fabbed me up a different exhaust. He also suggested an MSD DIS-4 (which was pretty cool when it worked) and so on and so forth.
And this was all over the course of several years, and this was my DD, that I also took to the track at every opportunity because it was fun, and reliable.
I loved that car, so I think you have me mistaken with someone else when you imply that I'm "jaded" and that I was ignoring "well-documented" facts (of which, there weren't any about a 3.5 back then).
It just so happens that through the life of the car, I got to try alot of different things firsthand, and the simple fact is, the ATX just doesn't compare to the MTX, in speed and driveability.
And if you're going to talk Forced Induction, then why even bother TT'ing an NA, just buy a VR-4. That's what I did, and while I loved my SL, if I could go back in time and change it, I should have bought my RT/TT first. With less than half the money invested, it puts down twice the power, and handles better. So if you want to save your money, that's the real way to go.
Agree 100% with 95gto, and also I'd like to point out that was the tranny rebuild I got from IPT. It cost almost $4000 when all was said and done to be fully built, heat treated, and with the Torque Converter.Quote:
Originally Posted by 95gto
i will agree with you about "buying a vr4 in the first place". if i had to do it over again; i'd do just that. and i'd immediately swap in an atx. much less headache that way, and i don't have a colossal fight with insurance coverage.
i don't feel that having IPT building you a trans is the best way to do things--at least not the most economical. that said, even if you're paying $4,000 for a complete trans, bear in mind the cost of a used 6-speed on ebay. now add in the cost of "building" that. you can chew through a wad of cash real quick with getrags; and since they're specific to JUST the 3/s--good luck with finding a wide assortment of suppliers. i can get aftermarket torque converters and clutch packs from a dozen or more suppliers for my trans.
i totally get what chris is saying when he says he prefers mtx. i get that. it's a matter of choice. he has personal preferences; just like everyone else. just because i'm not a huge fan of corvettes doesn't mean that they're shitty cars. just because i'm not a huge fan of rowing through gears doesn't mean that it doesn't have appeal for other people. what i am saying is that the "bashing" is uncalled for. there's pros and cons to any preferential choice a person makes. if you make a choice, great--i'm happy for you. and while we're at it, let's keep the BS to a minimum.
p.s.
95gto, i'm not basing my opinion off any one car. practically any AMG mercedes with a slushbox is a potent force to be reckoned with (the sl350 amg 7-speed was a tenth faster in the 1/4 than the 05 corvette mtx). many DSM's stick with them because they're known to handle higher HP levels better than the MTX--in that specific car. i drove an ls3 atx corvette today--and it wasn't a slouch by any stretch of imagination. of course, it also had the advantage of paddle shifters...but then again, i don't have anything against paddle-shifters; just rowing gears.
experience has taught me that most people who try "racing" an atx for the first time haven't a clue what power-braking is. it was an easy thing to demonstrate back when my car was FWD-tt. simply mashing on the gas would gradually start the car moving. power braking would spin the tires. pretty easy determination about what's getting more power to the wheels from a dead stop.
so again, don't let just the n/a atx experience of a 3/s make the determination for you that "atx's suck. period". the #1 reason why they have such a bad rap on this platform is because they were never offered with forced-induction stock--unlike the DSM's. a tt 3/s atx is NOTHING like an n/a 3/s atx. i know. i've driven my car extensively before and after. even 9b's 8:1 @ 8psi make it feel like the car is downshifting; even though it hasn't. running it in "PWR" mode (so that it downshifts faster) is a spectacular difference. putting your foot into it will instantaneously slam into 2nd gear and you take off.
thanks for all the input guys
i'm really more of the see for myself type
so i'll keep all this in mind, but still going to try it out
good thing is, i'll probably get the opportunity to try both
starting with the atx, because that's the least amount of work
and i hate to waste this trans that has so much $ invested into it already
most likely i will just try it for a little while
when i have more time later on, i'll probably swap over to mtx, since they usually are more fun
i just really want to see for myself what this thing can do
if i'm happy i'll leave it this way for a while
if i'm disappointed, i'll be doing the mtx conversion sooner
either way, i already have every single thing i would need for the swap
there are a few things i'd want to upgrade tho
flywheel resurfaced and possibly shaved, new master and slave cylinders and braided ss lines instead of the used parts i have
but before i do anything, this rain needs to go away already
haven't been able to touch it for a week...
Dude, sit down the hatorade and take a breath. No one bashed an atx or said they suck period, people with direct experience with them laid out the basics they determined from personal experiences. No one told the guy "don't do it" they said he would be happier with an mtx.Quote:
Originally Posted by inperfectdarkness
The op is planning on getting his atx up and running, and given how far he is with his install I would say it makes sense to at least try it. He is planning on coming to the NG so we can see how his car does.
I also believe you are NG bound this year right? Solid performance by your car on the drag strip will be the best supporting arguement you could make for an atx on this platform. So bring your car and show people what you are talking about, it is quite literally that simple.
My advice to the op though is to hang onto the mtx setup.
i'm definitely keeping all the mtx conversion parts
i wasn't even considering going the atx route until i ran into this car
i just want to try it out since it's already there
the $ was already spent and the work was already done, so why not
My 2 cents... Potatoes... It worked for me.
I would agree 100%, given how far you are now I would agree you might as well try it.Quote:
Originally Posted by n2nsanity
At least you can drink TWO beers while driving with the ATX. That's probably why I still have mine.
-diddle the gf/wifeQuote:
Originally Posted by RL7
-change stations on the radio
-eat lunch
any or all of the above. :) i can also drive with my left foot out the window. :D
or eat a potato
Ive mastered eating maccas while driving a manual. I have pretty much reached the pinnacle of driving. :D
Looking for NA's to play with at NG11.
3.0s, 3.5, ATX,adn MTX.
Like to see someone other than 3SX compete with ours. Their alcohal burning, 13 to 1 compression is a monster for sure.
I am sure they too would like someone other than I to play with. LOL. I am still 3.0 adn still 10 to 1. Someone need to do 100 in the 1/4, adn low 14s.
Is this NG11 smack/Hype? You bet it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0JsdftRv0k
1ST place NA dyno - TX gathering 2010 - 229 FWHP
1st place Fastest NA - TXG 2010 - 98.3 trap
1st Place quickest NA - TXG 2010 - 14.680
2ND place 1/4 at NG10
best NA time NG10 - 14.932- no traction
2ND place 1/4 at NG09
2ND place Autocross NG09
Dude,Quote:
Originally Posted by TUFFTR
What the hell is Maccas? Is that a friend of yours? Post pics. ;)
i would have had trouble trapping over 100 when i was fwd tt. but that was with 2.3 second 60'. doing it n/a is an accomplishment!
i can't spin the tires right now if i try...so i'm sure i'd be a bit faster than 2 years ago. ;)
maccas? McDonalds? we just say maccas...:PQuote:
Originally Posted by GTwizard
I trapped 106MPH but ran a 15.08 :( would like to get the speed down if i can cross the line a bit quicker!
weather finally cleared up. i started prepping for pulling the atx back out. trans motor mount, starter and all electrical stuff out of the way, all bolts loosened. jack and block of wood supporting the trans. just have to pull the axle and remove the bolts and hopefully i can drop it out the bottom easily.
also did some cleanup and removing interior. i'm swapping all the tan for charcoal.
also started pulling the dash to try to get this battery relocation finished. the way i want it to go through the firewall, it will be much easier with the dash out.
anyway, after doing all this i started finding and getting irritated with all the hacked up wires
also, the shifter is all loose and needs to be repaired
and then started thinking if the dash is already going to be out, removing the wire harness will be a lot easier, which is making me lean more towards going back to my original plan (mtx conversion).
also, all the splash guards are already off
the front bumper already needs taken off for repair
so once the trans is out, i'm about 30% of the way done with the mtx conversion anyway
we'll see, i really want to see what the atx with a shift kit, upgraded tq converter and lsd can do, but at the same time i'm really tempted to ditch that idea the more i see all these random disconnected and hacked up wires
battery relocation:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2ylnztc.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/16jn2oo.jpg
hacked up wires:
http://i51.tinypic.com/qnoi13.jpg
just do the MTX conversion already. you'll probably be doubly pissed if you aren't satisfied with the atx--as i suspect you wouldn't be anyways.
We were ATX at one time. Did the 3400 high stall and blue bands and red clutches. It was OK, and was quick, (for ATX) but nothing like converting to MTX. Just hold a "full of fluid" torque converter in your hands, Than pick up a light weight flywheel and clutch assembly. The differance in the rotational weight will blow you away. And the weight diff between atx and MTX is going to a bunch different as well. You don't need all the extra bagage. Dump the ATX. You will be happier. The ATX was fun in a strait line. But when that yellow sign on the side of the road is warning you of sharp curves and winding roads, you will soon learn that driving a manual is Balls more fun. As that sign simply means down shift and hammer.
Did you have the heads/cams, etc. when you were ATX?Quote:
Originally Posted by GTwizard
*flaps arms around calling you chicken* come onnnnnnnnnnn convert it!
hell, i'm the biggest proponent of atx's in the community....and even i think he should just get it over with.Quote:
Originally Posted by TUFFTR
You just want to buy his atx thats why. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by inperfectdarkness
Had the head work, headers, and fresh .020 over slugs with the ATX. That was about it. ALL the other goodies came after 5speed install. The newest of cams, Adjustable cam gears, and intake was done 1 week before NG last. Than the Dyno at TX gathering.Quote:
Originally Posted by SOHC
Hope to get an other trans shortly and tune for NG11. I can say we did have traction issues. When side stepping the brake at 3400 and than the induction bodies would open at 3500 keeping the tires guessing for traction. Those days are gone. Now the quest is how to maintain traction in 3 gears, not just the first 1. LOL. The manual also give you a better feel or keeps your sesnses more in touch with the motor abilities. Matching gear shifts with different point along the power band, upshifting and down shifting alows you to use more of the motor when you need it most. The ATX hides or masks this feed back that you get from the drive line. Thought you might like to know.
well, i should be at the deciding point tomorrow. Once everything's out, it'll just be a matter of what's going back in
if i end up going the mtx route, i'd sell the atx, tq converter and everything that goes with it for like $500
either you're new, or you've overlooked the fact that i wouldn't be able to use his transmission anyways. not without doing a lot of cannibalizing. and at that point, if i'm going to the trouble of pulling the trans; i'lll probably build it MY way with new parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by SOHC
well, dash is out, it's not as helpful as i'd hoped
think i need to take the hvac assembly out too.
while it's out it'd be nice to go ahead and replace the heater, evap cores and blend doors, but i doubt time/funds will allow for that
http://i54.tinypic.com/1zxplph.jpg
i outsmarted the wind with some vice grips :p
I am now 63.
Not my age. My registration number for NG11.
Running all events.
Going from ATX to MTX, no other mods, I gained 1 sec and 4 MPH in the 1/4 mile.
ATXs are nice for turbo'd 3/Ss, less wheel spin with the longer gears but awful for NAs.
Same.Quote:
Originally Posted by GTwizard
well, of course i ended up changing plans again, so now back to my original project....
i'm sticking to this one, unless i run across a steal on a spyder, lol
maybe i'll try reinstalling this atx on the other car
reverse wasn't working on that one anyway
i just have no luck with these things
i still think the problem was likely electrical
if you saw the condition of the current wire harness, you'd probably think so too
anyway, i started pulling some atx stuff
old shifter and brake pedal assemblies are out
making a template using the clutch/brake pedal assembly and see if i can find anything that can put holes in the firewall
If you aren't going FI just switch to MTX. Take it from someone who's had an ATX with an n/a and a TT.
And of course as I make this post I see that you are indeed going MTX.
Iirc I used a 1" 1/8 hole saw on a compact 1/4 drive drill for the slave cylinder hole.Quote:
Originally Posted by n2nsanity
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