Couple Virtual dyno charts from todays outing

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Originally Posted by J. Fast

Pep Boys and Advanced Auto has nearly every Champion spark plug referenced in 316 as well as the plugs being discussed in stock.

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the places around here suck balls. i called autozone, advanced, and napa and only autozone said they could get them for me at a mere $27 a piece! what a deal! i am gonna get some from summit. i am really liking the idea of these plugs and have been reading up on this style

FYI on these plugs guys... The Champion Manufacturer part number on the box is Champion Spark Plug # 694 or CPN-694. You will not be able to find them at local stores using a C53VC model number.

You should stock them Ninja, they're a legit plug. They retail for $4.25 each, in store no discount, in Denver.

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Originally Posted by Ninja Performance

I do have hi rev springs in the heads as I did a lot of testing with cams, then sold them and went back to stock cams to get some bottom end back. And to see how far I could push stock heads and cams.

-Chris

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Do you know the brand of high rev springs? Have you encountered any springs you wouldn't recommend? It's hard to find anyone with an opinion on our aftermarket valve springs. They all seem to work.

Little more information on these two runs.

I live in the country, so long flat sections of country road are available to me.

There was no wind this day. About 75F out.

The two runs were done within 2 minutes of each other. I turned my Profec to Lo and ran the first run, turned around, set the Profec to Hi and did the second run.

I would suspect the slightly faster spool is due to me wrapping the front manifold and rear turbine housing in heat wrap and the hotter turbos since they were just ran. Heat means expansion/energy.

-Chris

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Originally Posted by vr4tune

1st, do you think the drop in knock could partially be from the cam gear timing being corrected.


2nd, just for clarity your heads are port matched right? As well well as gasket matched upper and lower intake plenum?

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I think my "knock" in my aem logs which would make a grown man cry (think 3.5-4 volts) that is now 2.0 and under at 38psi! may be due to not getting a full burn. My bearings always look brand new and plugs never have detonation flakes on them. But now with these plugs, correctly adjusted cam gears etc the knock raw and knock volts is way low.

Yes, I did (3 years ago) gasket match my lower plenum, cylinder intake and upper plenum. But JUST gasket match, No work in the ports.

-Chris

I think I found a source for getting the Champion C53VC plugs through one of my vendors, we will sell them as cheap or cheaper than summit or anywhere else I have found. Give me a few days.

-Chris

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Originally Posted by Ninja Performance

I think my "knock" in my aem logs which would make a grown man cry (think 3.5-4 volts) that is now 2.0 and under at 38psi! may be due to not getting a full burn. My bearings always look brand new and plugs never have detonation flakes on them. But now with these plugs, correctly adjusted cam gears etc the knock raw and knock volts is way low.

Yes, I did (3 years ago) gasket match my lower plenum, cylinder intake and upper plenum. But JUST gasket match, No work in the ports.

-Chris

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That's awesome Chris, you rock and I love what you do for this community! I will be ordering some stuff from you soon!

We should have the plugs in stock soon, cheaper than anywhere else if my vendor comes thru.

-Chris

Adam,

I have the Supertech, not the cheapest but I have also heard bad things about the BCs not holding their spring pressure over time.

Supertech Hi Rev Spring/Retainer Kit 91-99 3000GT Stealth 6G72 DOHC (SPRK-M1007S3000) - Ninja

-Chris

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Originally Posted by Ninja Performance

Adam,

I have the Supertech, not the cheapest but I have also heard bad things about the BCs not holding their spring pressure over time.

Supertech Hi Rev Spring/Retainer Kit 91-99 3000GT Stealth 6G72 DOHC (SPRK-M1007S3000) - Ninja

-Chris

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Thanks and great price. Looks like I'll be ordering these from you. I know you use a solid tensioner, but have you ever tried to use these on a stock tensioner? I'm going to tighten it so that the plunger is bottomed out, but any tips on that front are appreciated.

I know I'm talking to myself, but here is a good post on evolution.net on using VD. Really good, simple info for anyone wanting to use it. How to use Virtual Dyno Properly - evolutionm.net

Specifically...
Using Smoothing to Verify the Accuracy of the Logs

The smoothing function in VD can be used to determine how accurate your power output is based on the consistency of power from Smoothing 1 to Max. A good rule of thumb is, if your power drops less then 12-15WHP from smoothing 1 to Max, then the run is accurate and will most likely make very similar numbers on a real Dynojet dyno, usually with 0-3%. If your power drops off 20-25WHP or more from smoothing 1 to Max, you should be aware that the VD chart may not be accurate and your power could be off 5%, if not more, from a real Dynojet dyno.

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Originally Posted by AdamVR4

Thanks and great price. Looks like I'll be ordering these from you. I know you use a solid tensioner, but have you ever tried to use these on a stock tensioner? I'm going to tighten it so that the plunger is bottomed out, but any tips on that front are appreciated.

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My 3.0 had a stock tensioner with DR street cams and high rev kit, regular belt (non-kevlar). No issues holding timing with it's limited run time. Hit 8k+ a couple times in first and second. I believe it was set a little tighter than stock, but definitely not bottomed out.

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Originally Posted by AdamVR4

Thanks and great price. Looks like I'll be ordering these from you. I know you use a solid tensioner, but have you ever tried to use these on a stock tensioner? I'm going to tighten it so that the plunger is bottomed out, but any tips on that front are appreciated.

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I put these in a while ago with the stock Mitsu Hydro tensioner and it has been beat on and to the rack that way with no issues. So I would say you will be fine.

-Chris

Trevor...might have already listed it but you got a part number for those plugs?

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Originally Posted by Trevor

Even with a twinpower on a brand new OEM ignition (PTU, coils, and wires) I had breakup with E85 at 32+ psi. With Denso Iridiums (which I'm a huge fan of) it was horrible. Went to the non projected plugs with a tight gap and it improved but my logs still showed significant back steps in RPM at peak torque (IE peak cylinder pressure). Went to flat electrode plugs like these:
http://www.sparkplugssource.com/images/5719.jpg
...and it further improved but the $10 a piece plugs I was running were discontinued and the only plugs available now of that construction are ~$34 a piece which is F'in ridiculous. Ended up doing some research on plug attributes/characteristics and settled on the Champions. I'm no fan of the brand but they work great. They are one of if not THE only option out there with an off the wall contruct. Maybe if we continue to keep a demand on the part number it won't go away.

Big take aways of the surface discharge plugs are that they're very resistant to blow out and fouling. They're not rotary engine specific either. F1 used to use em back in the day.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA300_.jpg

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Originally Posted by oohnoo

Trevor...might have already listed it but you got a part number for those plugs?

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Hmmm...post 42???

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Originally Posted by J. Fast

FYI on these plugs guys... The Champion Manufacturer part number on the box is Champion Spark Plug # 694 or CPN-694. You will not be able to find them at local stores using a C53VC model number.

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Originally Posted by Ninja Performance

Adam,

I have the Supertech, not the cheapest but I have also heard bad things about the BCs not holding their spring pressure over time.

Supertech Hi Rev Spring/Retainer Kit 91-99 3000GT Stealth 6G72 DOHC (SPRK-M1007S3000) - Ninja

-Chris

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i have not heard anyone who said the bc springs are not good for 3/s. Von said they are good springs before I buy them. looking at their catalog they have different spring pressures for different brands. Imo if it doesn't work for some other platform it doesn't mean it wouldn't for us. the price are very comparable to bc so it defiantly is not the price issue here to not buy the springs over others. I'm trying to compare the spring pressures but for some reason on the length on yours are not same as BC. on bc 39.37 is fully closed with 84lbs pressure. on yours it says 37.15mm fully closed at 102lbs. the supertech springs are pressed in over 2mm more unless they are 2mm shorter which i don't think it's the case here or the retainers are thicker or shimmed. same with open. BC valves gives 25.4mm with 235lbs and supertech with massive 11.5mm only gives 224lbs. unless i'm reading this wrong, BC springs seems stronger to me.

Interested in the plugs Chris , let me know of you can get them for a dsm . I'm running ngk bre6 atm I believe gapped down but if ican pick up some.power and reliability I'm game , nice graphs as well !

Sent from my HTC Hero S using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by mehrshadvr4

i have not heard anyone who said the bc springs are not good for 3/s. Von said they are good springs before I buy them. looking at their catalog they have different spring pressures for different brands. Imo if it doesn't work for some other platform it doesn't mean it wouldn't for us. the price are very comparable to bc so it defiantly is not the price issue here to not buy the springs over others. I'm trying to compare the spring pressures but for some reason on the length on yours are not same as BC. on bc 39.37 is fully closed with 84lbs pressure. on yours it says 37.15mm fully closed at 102lbs. the supertech springs are pressed in over 2mm more unless they are 2mm shorter which i don't think it's the case here or the retainers are thicker or shimmed. same with open. BC valves gives 25.4mm with 235lbs and supertech with massive 11.5mm only gives 224lbs. unless i'm reading this wrong, BC springs seems stronger to me.

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I've run both bc's, and supertech duels in my 4g63, same springs and seats the 6g72 parts. First off, who on here has ever actually checked the installed height of the springs, and shimmed them to spec? The installed height recommended by bc isn't what you get if you just drop them in, they need shimmed. Supertechs come with a very thick spring seat that usually puts the installed height in spec, unless your valves sit really low in the seats.
The bc's would float around 8500 rpms on my setup. With a more aggressive cam, I can rev over 9000 no problem on the supertech duels.

In general it's been found on several boards I'm on that bc products have some of the lowest quality control in the aftermarket engine parts market. A guy on a Dsm forum I'm on bent his valves from float running bc springs on a huge cam, at about only 5000 rpms. Several other members have actually broken the springs.

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Originally Posted by Ninja Performance

I put these in a while ago with the stock Mitsu Hydro tensioner and it has been beat on and to the rack that way with no issues. So I would say you will be fine.

-Chris

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Did you bottom-out the tensioner or did you install it at stock tension (grenade pin freely slides in and out)?

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Originally Posted by donniekak

I've run both bc's, and supertech duels in my 4g63, same springs and seats the 6g72 parts. First off, who on here has ever actually checked the installed height of the springs, and shimmed them to spec? The installed height recommended by bc isn't what you get if you just drop them in, they need shimmed. Supertechs come with a very thick spring seat that usually puts the installed height in spec, unless your valves sit really low in the seats.
The bc's would float around 8500 rpms on my setup. With a more aggressive cam, I can rev over 9000 no problem on the supertech duels.

In general it's been found on several boards I'm on that bc products have some of the lowest quality control in the aftermarket engine parts market. A guy on a Dsm forum I'm on bent his valves from float running bc springs on a huge cam, at about only 5000 rpms. Several other members have actually broken the springs.

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again don't compare dsm to 3/s. I searched a ton for bc springs and some people over there don't even know the difference between crower and briancrower brand and that was the one people break. a lot of people had good luck with bc springs. supertech springs that are available for 3/s are single spring not dual. I highly doubt that the springs are same on 3/s since no one as far as i know have run dsm springs on 3/s. and looking at the height the bc is putting more pressure on the seats. the height of valve and seats make huge difference on spring pressure. plus there is a presigure to break in the springs. you don't just put the on a rev the hell out of the engine. people who don't break in the springs are the one dangering breaking springs.

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Originally Posted by mehrshadvr4

supertech springs that are available for 3/s are single spring not dual.

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Actually, it appears they have 3 flavors available, including a dual spring:

Supertech Valve Spring Kits | Ground Zero Performance

This thread may interest you: http://www.3sgto.org/3000gt-stealth-...selection.html

I've got some more data, so I'll update it tonight I think.

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Originally Posted by mehrshadvr4

I highly doubt that the springs are same on 3/s since no one as far as i know have run dsm springs on 3/s. and looking at the height the bc is putting more pressure on the seats. the height of valve and seats make huge difference on spring pressure. plus there is a presigure to break in the springs. you don't just put the on a rev the hell out of the engine. people who don't break in the springs are the one dangering breaking springs.

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I had no idea there was a break-in procedure. Bring this info and your rationale for spring selection to the valve spring selection thread! ;)

yeah I had no idea either till last night searching for spring pressure. What i could get from it was don't rev the engine more than 1500-2000rpm for first start and let the engine warms up to operating temp and then shut the car and let it cool down to ambien ambient temperature. before when i was searching most DSMs had good luck with bc springs. on 3/s i haven't heard of anyone having problem yet probably because we don't rev to 9k all the time. dual springs will give you better valve control for sure, but for single springs and ~8500rpm bc are great.

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Originally Posted by mehrshadvr4

again don't compare dsm to 3/s. I searched a ton for bc springs and some people over there don't even know the difference between crower and briancrower brand and that was the one people break. a lot of people had good luck with bc springs. supertech springs that are available for 3/s are single spring not dual. I highly doubt that the springs are same on 3/s since no one as far as i know have run dsm springs on 3/s. and looking at the height the bc is putting more pressure on the seats. the height of valve and seats make huge difference on spring pressure. plus there is a presigure to break in the springs. you don't just put the on a rev the hell out of the engine. people who don't break in the springs are the one dangering breaking springs.

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The bc 4g63 springs, and 6g72 springs are the same part. People also use stock evo springs all the time in 6g72's. I also have yet to see a build thread with someone actually checking the installed height.


Springs don't break in. The break in procedure of holding rpm, and then cooling down is for solid lifter cam in block engines with big cams, and stiff springs. It is done to prevent wiping the cam.

Wonder if my Dynamic Racing High rev spring kit is the dual spring supertech kit.

uhm they are saying different thing here.
COMP Cams® - Sorry...
I have my heads at home with BC springs. I'll try to find a way to measure the valve height from the bottom.

Now, My HIGH boost (36psi or about) on E95M5 were always scary looking. But after a year of beating on it, tracking it many times in the low 10's and 140-144mph range I tore it down last July for a last rebuild/track run before my bone marrow transplant, and as the time before, the bearings looked like they had 100 miles of easy driving on them.

But with the Champion race plugs and noise floor is WAY lower and power is up. Detonation is NOT making power. And the car felt smoother and stronger, and these VD runs showed a little more power.

So as you look at the before log, which was a superflow dyno 796AWHP 727AWTQ, keep in mind I would NOT tune like this and on a customer's car, especially on any type of non 100% alcohol fuel I would cringe at this log. But for my setup if has proven itself to stay together. BUT with lower noise floor and new found smoothness and power I feel it was real and the next track event should be interesting.

These really show the possibility that VD is showing REAL new HP, Detonation hinders power.

BEFORE with NGK Coppers
http://www.ninjaperformance.com/imag...opper36psi.jpg


After with Champion Race Plugs
http://www.ninjaperformance.com/imag...eplug36psi.jpg

-Chris

that's a very good difference.

The C53vc plugs came in today. That is a funky looking plug, lol.

I'd love to test them on 93 for you guys, but when I switch to e85 I'd rather foul my current plugs getting the tune close than foul these.

yeah i have some here as well, but i am going to finish tuning on my current setup then do back to back VD's and see if there is an immediate change. i will also write up if i am able to run any more boost, or anything like that. i have great excite!

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Originally Posted by Forest Gump

The C53vc plugs came in today. That is a funky looking plug, lol.

I'd love to test them on 93 for you guys, but when I switch to e85 I'd rather foul my current plugs getting the tune close than foul these.

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They are wild looking aren't they:) I put one in a set of heads on the shelf just so I could see it. Fits perfectly flush, and looks great with just the little button sticking out.

Plugs In Stock in 2 days

CHAMPION Race Plug 694 C53VC Set of 6 (C53VCX6) - Ninja Performance - Affordable Performance Auto

-Chris

Damn Chris! I might have to pick a set of these up from you!