Question on NA Stroker

[lgvenable]

I've got a 92 base in perfect condition which just passed 70K miles. I'm at a point where I'm ready to upgrade, and was wondering what is available for NA upgrades by doing an NA stroker. Has anyone done a 3.5 or 4.2 stroker from Pampena Motorsports; and what HP was achieved, or am I better off doing a TT upgrade?

If the best rout is the TT-SL; I'm assuming I'll need to upgrade my FWD tranny, or are there twin disk parts to upgrade the tranny with.

Hey and don't flame me, I'm over from 3SI, where for several years I didn't know the forum split due to intermittent activity; but have been around these forums since 2002.

Is there anyone I can work with in the Morristown TN area who has done a TT-SL conversion?

[R/T93]

Several people have dropped 6g74 3.5 motors into their FWD. Its not much a hp gain, not as much as bolting the stock twin turbo stuff onto the stock 3.0.

As for the transmission, the stock FWD will handle the power, for a time... the differential is the weak point, it WILL fail if you drive the car hard. You can upgrade the differential for 1200 dollars for a Quaife LSD but you are just going to break the next weakest part, most likely 2nd gear.

The smart (most reliable) thing to do is the TT swap on the 10:1 motor, add all the turbo parts (radiator, oil cooler included) that consists of the swap and add either a 5 or 6 speed Getrag trans from a turbo car. There are plenty of reviews and how to's regarding a project like this but dont take it too seriously. The simpler the better. The car wont be worth much of anything no matter how much stuff you do to it but it could be a rewarding, reliable, fun, quick, daily driver of a car.

[lgvenable]

I'm looking to make this a reliable daily driver thats a lot of fun, without breaking the bank. So basically it sounds like a TT-SL conversion; with a Gertag tranny upgrade/rebuild. Can I use the AWD differential/transfer case, but just drive the front axles which I'd assume would need to be beefier?

Are there members with shops in the general Tennessee/Kentucky/Arkansas area you know about where I could get the work done?

[R/T93]

I have no clue what shops are in that area.

There is some internal modifications to do regarding making the AWD trans FWD only. It is also possible to make your car AWD but its a lot more work but completely do-able. Many have done that too.

Drive axles are the same for TT and n/a cars, however, the wheel bearing hub spline count is different on 91/92 cars from the 93+ cars. If you keep your stock brakes you will be able to keep the stock axles.

[3000gttom]

there has never been an all out n/a build on this platform so there is no way to tell you how much power you will make, i haven't even seen an n/a stroker build

what can be said is that ive seen up to 230 ft-lb put down with the stock bottom end and naturally you will get more from having a longer stroke, and with being able to rev to over 8000rpm you may see horsepower get pretty high if everything is built and tuned correctly, and you may want to talk to nelson because he is revving to like 12000 rpm, with that kind of rpm you could make over 500whp n/a

if you tt you will get a ton of horsepower but also a ton of torque with it that likes to destroy tranny's and with fwd will have lot more traction problems than an n/a

the tt conversion is well documented and there is less planning, but dont believe when people tell you that it is under 1k to convert, because i haven't found a way to do it for under 2k without taking a lot of shortcuts, this basically means really if you want turbo's to buy a second vr4 and that way you can use the power you have instead of just spinning tire

if you do an n/a build you are pretty much in uncharted territory with not really anyone to go to for help, gtwiz is smart but his build is on hold and i'm not starting my build for a while since ill be working with penn state sae team building a high revving n/a yamaha r6 motor

long story short, dont do an n/a build unless your an engineer who is good with fluid dynamics and and understands the harmonics of an n/a motor, and if you want turbo get a vr4 so you can actually use the horsepower you make

[IPD]

there is no way in hades even a 4.0L stroker n/a is going to make 500whp unless you're pouring nitromethane into it--and even then i'm not sure.

i believe suthnr has a built n/a, but it's probably not any faster than a fwd-tt on wastegate boost.

save yourself the heartache and either buy a vr4 or tt-convert your car. fwd-tt can be a lot of fun, but past 300fwhp is fairly pointless. if you just want to fire & forget (i.e. the mod bug doesn't bite) then maybe fwd-tt is your thing. if you have an ever increasing need for speed (like most of us) you'd be better off making the jump to AWD now--it will cost you way less in the long run.

you can do a tt-conversion for ~1k if you do ALL of the work yourself, and you shop around. Used parts, of course...but if you insisted on buying new, you wouldn't be buying 9b's anyways. Headers, turbos, ic & piping, plenum, intake, injectors, fuel pump--you can probably find a package deal from someone parting out or upgrading. You can get an ebay downpipe for < $150 shipped, and a used one probably way less--you can hook it to virtually any catback you want (i had my fwd-tt hooked to a 2.5" n/a single-shot exhaust for quite some time). SAFC 2 for ~200-300, and a basic MBC for <$40.

You'll most likely spend a lot more in getting a 5 or 6 speed & converting it to FWD than you will on the tt-conversion. Fwd mtx's are made of balsa-wood and glass (ask stealthee).

As far as shops? Barefoot Racing was in Atlanta, but I haven't really heard anything from those guys in a few.

[green-lantern]

I've got a 92 base in perfect condition which just passed 70K miles. I'm at a point where I'm ready to upgrade, and was wondering what is available for NA upgrades by doing an NA stroker. Has anyone done a 3.5 or 4.2 stroker from Pampena Motorsports; and what HP was achieved, or am I better off doing a TT upgrade?

If the best rout is the TT-SL; I'm assuming I'll need to upgrade my FWD tranny, or are there twin disk parts to upgrade the tranny with.

Hey and don't flame me, I'm over from 3SI, where for several years I didn't know the forum split due to intermittent activity; but have been around these forums since 2002.

Is there anyone I can work with in the Morristown TN area who has done a TT-SL conversion?

I live near Oak Ridge and I've done the conversion (TT). Also Coop (DCIV) lives in Morristown. He pretty much only posts on the other board though.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I have no clue what shops are in that area.

There is some internal modifications to do regarding making the AWD trans FWD only. It is also possible to make your car AWD but its a lot more work but completely do-able. Many have done that too.

Drive axles are the same for TT and n/a cars, however, the wheel bearing hub spline count is different on 91/92 cars from the 93+ cars. If you keep your stock brakes you will be able to keep the stock axles.

the hub spline count is the same. The difference is in the transmission side.

[R/T93]

the hub spline count is the same. The difference is in the transmission side.

Are you sure? Guys doing the brake conversion need to get new axles if they are older or newer brakes (compared to th their current setup).

Edit: I could be wrong, I can't research quickly I'm out and about.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Are you sure? Guys doing the brake conversion need to get new axles if they are older or newer brakes (compared to th their current setup).

Edit: I could be wrong, I can't research quickly I'm out and about.

yeah I had a 1995 NA and ran the smaller and larger style axles with a 1992 trans and then a 1995 trans. never changed the hubs

[Hans@GZP]

Save your money that you would pour into the car to do a turbo converion ($3k-5k to do it right) and buy a clean vr4 (can be had for $6k ish). Use your base as a DD and the vr4 as a fun weekend car.

[IPD]

Are you sure? Guys doing the brake conversion need to get new axles if they are older or newer brakes (compared to th their current setup).

Edit: I could be wrong, I can't research quickly I'm out and about.

brake conversion has nothing to do with axles. period.

[whitedragon]

brake conversion has nothing to do with axles. period.

Unless you're talking about NA to TT calipers, and the ring on the TT axles for the ABS sensor, since the sensor is mounted different between the TT and NA.

[IPD]

what is this "ABS" you speak of? :p

[GTwizard]

OK, I'm back. Been busy. Check out "Bottoms up" in the paint and body section to see.

OP
At 70,000 miles, you motor just got broke in. loL. WTF are you doing? Do your 60K service and move on to those items that make a drivers differance.
If you like to drive, More power is NOT going to get it, unless the rest of the car is prepared to do so. Suspenson, brakes, wheels tires, sway bars and such.
WE have members here on there 5th and 6th 60K service. WE don't like to upgrade unless there is a reason too.

Now that being said. Keep in mind that any FWD will have traction issues. A little wheel hope and out the window with your spiders.
I was braking 2 trans a year. WEll every time I drag race that is. I just installed an LSD and ready to try again. Our car is built for road race and auto cross.. So a 1/4 mile car it is not.
We only drag race for the trophies. LOL. Road race for the thrill. Now you have to decide what the Hell you intend to do with the car. You should be preparing your car for it's intended use.
If you like the car and wish to keep it reliable and comfterable, Leave it STOCK. If you wish to put all your money into a car and make it not drivable as I did. Dig up about $8Gs and go for it.
This should put you someware close to what we have done. This car is for assalting black top and catching turbo drivers napping at the wheel. This car is all business. If your looking for a joy ride, this is not it.

PLan your builds wisely. Most do not. Prepare your car for it's intended use. Nothing more, but nothing less. And try not to make it do things that FWD can not. Save your bones and build a TT AWD.
You will be much farther ahead. You can find a none working TT car for around $1200.00 on craigs list most times. That $1200 in you NA will not do shit.

WE will not run a VR4 trans as too heavy for us. Same with VR4 brakes. Too heavy & We don't need-m. Weight is always a concideration. WE out run plenty of TT cars on a road course. THat is do to our
over all package requirements. WE are 1000 lb.s lighter and produce the same power number as stock TT cars. Here's a drawback that I am sure you did not think of, the grand you will spend on tires keeping your car attached to the ground.
Eat a set of those in a season and see if building your car was still a good idea. Once you open the doors to the MONEY PIT, they are hard to close. And if you are thinking "Well I just won't go that crazy with a build", THan do not waist your time and money.
Nothing worse than building a 1/2 assed project that will never be finished.

So for now, Keep your driveline stock and go after those parts of the car that make driving fun.
Good luck to you.
Don't forget to watch the video in my sig.

Nov 9,10,and 11 is TXgathering. Watch for me to brake a few records this year, instead of transmitions. Looking for low 13s, and a dyno run that makes everyone call fowl.

[3000gttom]

OK, I'm back. Been busy. Check out "Bottoms up" in the paint and body section to see.

OP
At 70,000 miles, you motor just got broke in. loL. WTF are you doing? Do your 60K service and move on to those items that make a drivers differance.
If you like to drive, More power is NOT going to get it, unless the rest of the car is prepared to do so. Suspenson, brakes, wheels tires, sway bars and such.
WE have members here on there 5th and 6th 60K service. WE don't like to upgrade unless there is a reason too.

Now that being said. Keep in mind that any FWD will have traction issues. A little wheel hope and out the window with your spiders.
I was braking 2 trans a year. WEll every time I drag race that is. I just installed an LSD and ready to try again. Our car is built for road race and auto cross.. So a 1/4 mile car it is not.
We only drag race for the trophies. LOL. Road race for the thrill. Now you have to decide what the Hell you intend to do with the car. You should be preparing your car for it's intended use.
If you like the car and wish to keep it reliable and comfterable, Leave it STOCK. If you wish to put all your money into a car and make it not drivable as I did. Dig up about $8Gs and go for it.
This should put you someware close to what we have done. This car is for assalting black top and catching turbo drivers napping at the wheel. This car is all business. If your looking for a joy ride, this is not it.

PLan your builds wisely. Most do not. Prepare your car for it's intended use. Nothing more, but nothing less. And try not to make it do things that FWD can not. Save your bones and build a TT AWD.
You will be much farther ahead. You can find a none working TT car for around $1200.00 on craigs list most times. That $1200 in you NA will not do shit.

WE will not run a VR4 trans as too heavy for us. Same with VR4 brakes. Too heavy & We don't need-m. Weight is always a concideration. WE out run plenty of TT cars on a road course. THat is do to our
over all package requirements. WE are 1000 lb.s lighter and produce the same power number as stock TT cars. Here's a drawback that I am sure you did not think of, the grand you will spend on tires keeping your car attached to the ground.
Eat a set of those in a season and see if building your car was still a good idea. Once you open the doors to the MONEY PIT, they are hard to close. And if you are thinking "Well I just won't go that crazy with a build", THan do not waist your time and money.
Nothing worse than building a 1/2 assed project that will never be finished.

So for now, Keep your driveline stock and go after those parts of the car that make driving fun.
Good luck to you.
Don't forget to watch the video in my sig.

Nov 9,10,and 11 is TXgathering. Watch for me to brake a few records this year, instead of transmitions. Looking for low 13s, and a dyno run that makes everyone call fowl.

have you done anything new to your car?... i would guess fixing the rev limiter problem alone will let you dyno over 250 hp

[GTwizard]

Yep! No problems now.
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/GTwizard/DSCF6173.jpg

[Uniuno]

For the Trans conversation above.. I just put the 5 speed getrag (25 spline) in my 95 base TT.

The different parts are:

Flywheel (different diameter)
Clutch disk (different splines)
Pressure plate (obviously)
Intermediate axle shaft (One is longer, I think the NA)
Passenger side axle (NA is longer and I had to cut the ABS ring off of an AWD axle to make it work)
Transmission mount (Smaller, actually)

Starter, Shifter cables and slave cylinder were the same.
(Cannot vouch for the '92 cars)

I made 3 welds inside the planetary gearset only to lock the center differential. The VCU will still be good when I put in a new gearset.
You could leave the OS shaft in and just let it spin under the car.. but that's up to you. I put in the block off plate that 3sx sells, had to do a little grinding on it though to make it work.. but it works.


As for keep it NA or go turbo? I went the turbo route because my car was really clean too, and I knew it's history. It was hard to find another clean car for the price at the time, and as I did all the work myself I got out pretty cheap. However, I still didn't skimp.. I wish I had AWD though.. waiting to find a donor car for that though..

I guess if I had to do it again I would have to second Han's advice.. DD the NA and find a vr4 to mod

[Uniuno]

Oh.. Good luck

[IPD]

yep. much easier to start AWD TT, imho.

[green-lantern]

For the Trans conversation above.. I just put the 5 speed getrag (25 spline) in my 95 base TT.

The different parts are:

Intermediate axle shaft (One is longer, I think the NA)


I'm useing an NA shaft on mine so it will work but I noticed it was longer when I installed it. I've ment to replace it but it hasn't been an issue yet so I just haven't got around to it.