Supercharger fuel system

[Blown3000]

I think it is time that I make the move from the FMU and WMI to a fully injected fuel system. Like to get some suggestions for ways to tackle this upgrade. Would really appreciate hearing from supercharged folks if there are any out there.

[IPD]

I think it is time that I make the move from the FMU and WMI to a fully injected fuel system. Like to get some suggestions for ways to tackle this upgrade. Would really appreciate hearing from supercharged folks if there are any out there.

exactly why should the fuel-system upgrades for a supercharged car be any different from those on a turbocharged car?

[ibsorgn]

exactly why should the fuel-system upgrades for a supercharged car be any different from those on a turbocharged car?

Don't think the man is claiming its different.

Blown, still using the NA ECU and injectors?

[IPD]

Don't think the man is claiming its different.

Blown, still using the NA ECU and injectors?

then why is he asking from "the supercharged folks out there"? for that matter, is the search function broken? i'm pretty sure that -6an has been established as sufficient upgrade for about 90% of the platform (not counting some ethanol users). parallel feed. stock feed line as return.

[ibsorgn]

then why is he asking from "the supercharged folks out there"? for that matter, is the search function broken? i'm pretty sure that -6an has been established as sufficient upgrade for about 90% of the platform (not counting some ethanol users). parallel feed. stock feed line as return.

I image he asks to scare up people like me. What are you sometype of self appointed gate keeper? Is there some unwritten rules to this forum that forbids someone from asking a question? Do you just assume that folks don't do searches?

Hope this forum is still run for the purposes of free and open discussion!

[ibsorgn]

I think it is time that I make the move from the FMU and WMI to a fully injected fuel system. Like to get some suggestions for ways to tackle this upgrade. Would really appreciate hearing from supercharged folks if there are any out there.

Blown, If you are running over 5 - 6 pounds of boost with the FMU (do you know the FMU's ratio?) you are probably, close to or are, maxing out the fuel pressure to the injectors which sooner or later will cause the injectors to fail or at a minimum not work properly. I ran with an 12- 1 FMU and WAI for about a year before I changed over and didn't experience any problems that I noticed. Feeding the motor without relying on high fuel pressures and WMI is the correct solution.

[IPD]

I image he asks to scare up people like me. What are you sometype of self appointed gate keeper? Is there some unwritten rules to this forum that forbids someone from asking a question? Do you just assume that folks don't do searches?

Hope this forum is still run for the purposes of free and open discussion!

not at all. but i am aware of OP's previous posts & relative hostility towards the tt-crowd.

[mb3000]

Why don't you two supercharged guys PM or call each other?

[Blown3000]

Why don't you two supercharged guys PM or call each other?

I don't get where you're coming from! How would I be able to receive other suggestions, comments, ideas etc., if I just PM'd another person?

[Blown3000]

Blown, If you are running over 5 - 6 pounds of boost with the FMU (do you know the FMU's ratio?) you are probably, close to or are, maxing out the fuel pressure to the injectors which sooner or later will cause the injectors to fail or at a minimum not work properly. I ran with an 12- 1 FMU and WAI for about a year before I changed over and didn't experience any problems that I noticed. Feeding the motor without relying on high fuel pressures and WMI is the correct solution.

A long time ago I read a post from a guy that installed 2 injectors in his intake manifold and would inject fuel above a certain rpm or boost level, I can't remember which nor how he triggered it. I think he was running a centrifugal supercharger. Seems like that could be a solution and a rather inexpensive one at that. Oh, my FMU is blue and I think that is a 10- 1.

[3000gttom]

you've spent the cash for a supercharger, meth injection, headers already, why do you want to skimp on the systems that make it all run

flashable is the smartest thing to do along with what ever size injectors and fuel pump you need

[ibsorgn]

A long time ago I read a post from a guy that installed 2 injectors in his intake manifold and would inject fuel above a certain rpm or boost level, I can't remember which nor how he triggered it. I think he was running a centrifugal supercharger. Seems like that could be a solution and a rather inexpensive one at that. Oh, my FMU is blue and I think that is a 10- 1.

I believe the guy you were referring to was in Europe or England but I do remember reading and seeing a few pixs of his set up. Thought it was quite novel and I believe that he trigger the injectors with his SAFC when a certain rpm was reached. The only drawback is that it is a on or off injection like your WMI and not a measured injection like what is controlled by your ECU. Beau_Jester (I think that's his handle in 3SI) told me that he wired in TT injectors but still controls the fuel system with his NA ECU and the help of a SAFC. I don't know whether he still uses a FMU as the NA ECU has no reference for boost. I think he seemed satisfied with his setup but you might try reaching him. Have you made any fuel system changes?

[ibsorgn]

not at all. but i am aware of OP's previous posts & relative hostility towards the tt-crowd.

Who is OP?

[Blown3000]

you've spent the cash for a supercharger, meth injection, headers already, why do you want to skimp on the systems that make it all run

flashable is the smartest thing to do along with what ever size injectors and fuel pump you need

How does researching my options translate into skimping? I'm trying to keep an open mind in tackling this issue. I'll make note of your flashable ECU suggestion. BTW, wasn't it you that thought my installing headers was the wrong thing to do you, yet I read your thread about you having trouble installing headers on your car? I take it you had a change of heart. Also, if your planning on TT your motor won't you need to pull your new headers and install a different exhaust manifold? See this is where doing a little planning and research can save time and money, unless of course you have abandon the turbocharging idea.

[Blown3000]

Don't think the man is claiming its different.

Blown, still using the NA ECU and injectors?

Sorry, I missed your question. Yes I'm still running the stock ECU and injectors, in fact the whole fuel system is stock except for the FMU.

[niterydr]

I've worked with FMU setups on supercharger setups and the best way to handle this is to get a rising rate (1:1) fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump/injectors that will support the power levels. It can be done on the NA ECU with proper timing control.
How much boost pressure are you running and what supercharger setup? Stock 10:1 N/A motor as well?

[3000gttom]

How does researching my options translate into skimping? I'm trying to keep an open mind in tackling this issue. I'll make note of your flashable ECU suggestion. BTW, wasn't it you that thought my installing headers was the wrong thing to do you, yet I read your thread about you having trouble installing headers on your car? I take it you had a change of heart. Also, if your planning on TT your motor won't you need to pull your new headers and install a different exhaust manifold? See this is where doing a little planning and research can save time and money, unless of course you have abandon the turbocharging idea.

lol you never even read my posts before, and yes long tube headers are not as good for a supercharger setup as shorties or even a good exhaust manifold

ive have always been n/a, i would never run a fwd-tt ever, or a sc front wheel drive, too much trouble keeping the torque down

tbh when an option as cheap and easy as the flashable is available, i feel like anything else is skimping

as to my ecu problem, when i installed my headers i broke an o2 sensor without realizing it, but once i threw a CEL for fuel trims i looked at my trims and i was maxed out, and i was able to see that my rear o2 was not reading any voltage, i replaced it and car runs great now, easy troubleshooting is another benefit of the flashable ecu

[Blown3000]

lol you never even read my posts before -- tbh when an option as cheap and easy as the flashable is available, i feel like anything else is skimping

Sorry I thought you authored "might be starting m build this summer, need opinions and info" must have been some other 3000gttom.

Anyway "To each his own" I just found that the Flashable ECU is a relatively expensive option for my requirements and what I'm currently needing. Maybe in the future, if my plans change, I may reconsider.

[Blown3000]

I've worked with FMU setups on supercharger setups and the best way to handle this is to get a rising rate (1:1) fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump/injectors that will support the power levels. It can be done on the NA ECU with proper timing control.
How much boost pressure are you running and what supercharger setup? Stock 10:1 N/A motor as well?

6 psi, MP90, Stock NA motor ECU and fuel system. I do run a WMA trigger at 2psi.

[3000gttom]

yea thats my thread, nothing wrong with anything i said in it, just no need to deal with trolls

when you say your tuning has to just meet requirements then your skimping,

o well have fun cutting corners, ive already gained 10wtq from 5000 rpm to the redline on an n/a with flash tuning just the fuel map

4466

[Blown3000]

yea thats my thread, nothing wrong with anything i said in it, just no need to deal with trolls

when you say your tuning has to just meet requirements then your skimping,

o well have fun cutting corners, ive already gained 10wtq from 5000 rpm to the redline on an n/a with flash tuning just the fuel map

4466

Man if a person doesn't agree with you, you immediately start name calling and criticizing.

Congradulations with your power improvements, now just stay off this thread.

[ibsorgn]

There are a number of different ways to modify your fuel system to handle forced induction and that's why I pointed out a few in an earlier post. I'm not as imagative as some so I went a more conventional route and effectively changed my fuel system and ECU to that used by the TT systems. Not breaking any real ground here but it was a safe choice. Items that need to be addressed/acquired are 1) higher capacity fuel pump, 2) high impedance injectors 3) inline resistors for the injectors, 4) 1st gen TT ECU, 5) a few wiring changes to the ECU, and 6) thermo fan controller. Optional items would include an adjustable fuel regulator, fuel pressure gauge and SAFC. Please note this is an upgrade for a Fed spec 2nd gen 3S NA. The cost including the SAFC set me back about $675. The fuel and timing maps of the TT ECU work well for my supercharged setup although somewhat to the rich side in most cases however the SAFC can correct. For the most part the base changes (items 1 - 6) should fit the motor's needs quite well.

[Blown3000]

There are a number of different ways to modify your fuel system to handle forced induction and that's why I pointed out a few in an earlier post. I'm not as imagative as some so I went a more conventional route and effectively changed my fuel system and ECU to that used by the TT systems. Not breaking any real ground here but it was a safe choice. Items that need to be addressed/acquired are 1) higher capacity fuel pump, 2) high impedance injectors 3) inline resistors for the injectors, 4) 1st gen TT ECU, 5) a few wiring changes to the ECU, and 6) thermo fan controller. Optional items would include an adjustable fuel regulator, fuel pressure gauge and SAFC. Please note this is an upgrade for a Fed spec 2nd gen 3S NA. The cost including the SAFC set me back about $675. The fuel and timing maps of the TT ECU work well for my supercharged setup although somewhat to the rich side in most cases however the SAFC can correct. For the most part the base changes (items 1 - 6) should fit the motor's needs quite well.

I assume that I could swap out my fuel pump for a higher volume without having to make related changes. I read about hotwiring the pump and replumbing with AN fittings, what is the need or is there? Any recommendations for a fuel pump, keep hearing about Walpro, Denso etc? Would this be a good time to install the adjustable fuel regulator and if so would any of these changes have an adverse effect on my current system?

[ibsorgn]

I assume that I could swap out my fuel pump for a higher volume without having to make related changes. I read about hotwiring the pump and replumbing with AN fittings, what is the need or is there? Any recommendations for a fuel pump, keep hearing about Walpro, Denso etc? Would this be a good time to install the adjustable fuel regulator and if so would any of these changes have an adverse effect on my current system?

Hotwiring is not needed unless you are looking to squeeze out performance. If your voltage is correct you will be fine. I'm not a name brand person as such, any good OEM 250 lph pump will do. I chose a pump for a Eclipse GST. The pump was nearly a exact size replacement and that is important as many of these other pumps will not fit into the pump carrier without modification. Installing the AFR will not hurt a thing. Be aware that some AFR will allow for the fuel pressure to bleed down when not in operation. This will not hurt anything however it will cause you to crank the engine over a bit more to return the fuel pressure to normal. AN fittings, their pretty and costly but not necessary for your application. 3/8 soft copper tubing and compression fittings will work just fine and save you money. I'll write a bit more on that when I have time, right now I'm late. Let us know how you did.

[Blown3000]

Hotwiring is not needed unless you are looking to squeeze out performance. If your voltage is correct you will be fine. I'm not a name brand person as such, any good OEM 250 lph pump will do. I chose a pump for a Eclipse GST. The pump was nearly a exact size replacement and that is important as many of these other pumps will not fit into the pump carrier without modification. Installing the AFR will not hurt a thing. Be aware that some AFR will allow for the fuel pressure to bleed down when not in operation. This will not hurt anything however it will cause you to crank the engine over a bit more to return the fuel pressure to normal. AN fittings, their pretty and costly but not necessary for your application. 3/8 soft copper tubing and compression fittings will work just fine and save you money. I'll write a bit more on that when I have time, right now I'm late. Let us know how you did.

Got the new fuel pump in. Man what a job breaking those lines! The GST pump required me to slightly lower the bottom bracket and reposition and drill the bracket bolt. For a little extra security I also installed a SS band clamp. Went to your writeup to understand how to convert and adapt to npt compression and barbed fittings. Fab'd a bracket to mount the adjustable fuel regulator, and with the use of the barbed npt fittings the AFR was pretty simple to install. I see what you mean about being able to tune with the AFR! I also installed a fuel pressure gauge simular to what you did. You were right about the cost savings of a npt and compression fitting setup verses that of a AN setup and, by avoiding a name brand style pump, I saved alot of money. Thanks for the tip. I'm going to start looking around for a TT ECU and injectors. What about the need for a SAFC?

[ibsorgn]

Got the new fuel pump in. Man what a job breaking those lines! The GST pump required me to slightly lower the bottom bracket and reposition and drill the bracket bolt. For a little extra security I also installed a SS band clamp. Went to your writeup to understand how to convert and adapt to npt compression and barbed fittings. Fab'd a bracket to mount the adjustable fuel regulator, and with the use of the barbed npt fittings the AFR was pretty simple to install. I see what you mean about being able to tune with the AFR! I also installed a fuel pressure gauge simular to what you did. You were right about the cost savings of a npt and compression fitting setup verses that of a AN setup and, by avoiding a name brand style pump, I saved alot of money. Thanks for the tip. I'm going to start looking around for a TT ECU and injectors. What about the need for a SAFC?

Glad to hear that your doing your own work, many don't but merely write about what they had done. You can always tell those that do the work from those that don't because their always short on detail and/or specifics. Concerning the fuel pressure gauge, if I had it over to do again I would have purchase a three gauge A pillar fixture and installed a fuel pressure gauge using a sending unit. If your able to do that I would certainly advise going with a cabin gauge, in that way you can see how that FMU performs. Happy to hear that you installed a AFR as that can help you tune by simply setting working fuel pressure. Once you get ready to install those injectors I'll give you some suggestions on wiring those resistors so that it don't look so jury rigged like in so many pictures I've seen.

[ibsorgn]

What about the need for a SAFC? If you are truely moving to the TT ECU and injectors and you're a little pressed for cash I would say no. Why, the TT ECU and injectors do a pretty good job handling the fuel and timing, or at least on my car they do and I would not expect much difference with yours. If you find that adjustment is needed then acquire one, but I think you will find that the TT setup will be pretty close, although it will favor the rich side abit.

[KeithMac]

At the end of the day the twin turbo ECU doesn`t car if you`re supercharged or TT`d, it meters the correct amount of fuel based on the Air Mas Meter readings so as long as you`re running a stock air meter in drawthrough with the TT kit you will be fine as ibsorgn says.

[Blown3000]

I would assume that I should keep the WMI even though I'm going to larger injectors? If it is kept, should I change anything I'm doing eg., triggering, nozzle/volume, solution etc?

[ibsorgn]

I would assume that I should keep the WMI even though I'm going to larger injectors? If it is kept, should I change anything I'm doing eg., triggering, nozzle/volume, solution etc?

By all means keep the water injection, this after all, is your "intercooler" and should be good for up to a trouble-free 10 psi should you choose to increase your boost. I can't remember if you stated whether you had a progressive system or not so I will assume not. I start my spray at 2.5 lbs as I don't want to be injecting at too low of rpm, so I don't believe that you would ever want to trigger any lower psi, and the higher the boost, the more the temperatures will rise. Because you will be supplying all the fuel the engine needs to operate under boost then you can do two things, 1) you don't have to add additional methanol/alcohol for fuel enrichment (I just spray -20 windshield washer fluid), 2) If you are using a 400cc+ nozzle, you can safely reduce your volume by 25% - 30% but I don't think this is necessary. BTW, do not lower volume by decreasing pressure. Oh, if you raise your boost stay with the higher volume nozzle as the temps will increase.

[Blown3000]

Got my injectors (used tt) can anyone suggest the resistors I should used and any tips on wiring them up?

[Uniuno]

I believe I used 6.5 ohm resistors from partsexpress.com when I did my conversion and wired them into a patch harness I made myself. You can just cut into the harness near the ecu though and put them there. I think it was like 13 bucks or something for all of them. I'm 90% positive about 6.5 ohm.. but it was a few years ago that I did that.. Good luck

[ibsorgn]

http://home.newwavecomm.net/re.route/Injector resistors.JPG

Got them from Mouser.com about $6

[ibsorgn]

Got my injectors (used tt) can anyone suggest the resistors I should used and any tips on wiring them up?
Seeings how I'm getting more adapt at inserting pixs, below are a few photos of how I wired in the resistors. The resistor pack was made using ABS plumbing fittings and was used to service the 3 rear injectors. The front resistors were spliced and soldered and hid in the flat plastic wire conduit that sits above the front injectors.
The main reason why I wired as I did is I wanted to ensure that I could access any resistor simply and without pulling the intake manifold. I also wanted the install to be clean and look professional ie., no resistors wrapped in electrical tape and laying on top and under the manifold. BTW, I painted the resistor b4 I installed, just roughed the ABS to ensure the wrinkle paint stuck.

http://home.newwavecomm.net/re.route/Resistor front bank.JPG
http://home.newwavecomm.net/re.route/Resister can base.JPG
http://home.newwavecomm.net/re.route/resistor pack.JPG
http://home.newwavecomm.net/re.route/Resistor Can.JPG

[Blown3000]

[QUOTE=ibsorgn;193885]Seeings how I'm getting more adapt at inserting pixs, below are a few photos of how I wired in the resistors. The resistor pack was made using ABS plumbing fittings and was used to service the 3 rear injectors. The front resistors were spliced and soldered and hid in the flat plastic wire conduit that sits above the front injectors.
The main reason why I wired as I did is I wanted to ensure that I could access any resistor simply and without pulling the intake manifold. I also wanted the install to be clean and look professional ie., no resistors wrapped in electrical tape and laying on top and under the manifold. BTW, I painted the resistor b4 I installed, just roughed the ABS to ensure the wrinkle paint stuck.


Tried to think of a better way but nothing came to mind. Followed along your ideas and it came out very neat and clean. Appreciate the pixs.