Brake Ducting and Cooling

[Erron Spalsbury]

Ok, let's talk brake cooling. Ideas, thoughts, theories, all welcome here.
I'll start with a few things I've found that are really cool.

Like this...
http://www.corsportusa.com/store/catalog/images/aprcana-020825.jpg

From here...
CorSport: Universal Parts - Exterior - Brake Air Ducts - NACA-020825 (http://www.corsportusa.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=7714)

Cheaper options here...
ButlerBuilt Professional Seat Systems (http://www.butlerbuilt.net/2010_Tree/products_Air_Managment_Systems_Ducts.html)

I had a set before and dug them out last night. They are hammered. The hoses are haggered and even have duct tape in some spots from tire rub. What does everyone do? I'd love to hear and see your ideas. I'm contemplating a deflection plate rather than true ducting but wanted to start a discussion on the topic. Something like this maybe...
http://www.pedrosgarage.com/Site_5/Maintain_your_Brakes_files/BrakeDucts.jpg

[R/T93]

I bought these from Hans.


http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/Ultor2/IMAG0790.jpg

They are from the MR's. See the 2nd mounting hole? MR control arms had a 2nd bracket.

They seem to work, I haven't had a previous sifting setup but my last track event in March (rain, temp in the 50's, the front calipers were only 150 degrees after a cooldown lap where the rears were 250+.

We can test them at NG, a few other guys have the same front brakes as me, I will bring my IR gun.

From the phone.

[Erron Spalsbury]

That is fantastic! Where did they come from, Hans? Does he make these?

[Turbo Beast]

Those are stock on MR's and Euro spec 3000GT's Erron.

They shouldn't be hard to get from maybe Ralliart (was that his username?) and i don't think they're that expensive

[R/T93]

They weren't expensive, Hans has been waiting awhile for another shipment, I think I got them for around 100 shipped? Maybe it was 110.

Installation required the drilling of one hole in each a arm

From the phone.

[J. Fast]

Frame rails with a shroud. $10 in metal, 1hr of time :) http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/Colorado3s/Photo_052712_003.jpg

[Stealth_RT]

I bought these from Hans.


http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/Ultor2/IMAG0790.jpg

They are from the MR's. See the 2nd mounting hole? MR control arms had a 2nd bracket.

They seem to work, I haven't had a previous sifting setup but my last track event in March (rain, temp in the 50's, the front calipers were only 150 degrees after a cooldown lap where the rears were 250+.

We can test them at NG, a few other guys have the same front brakes as me, I will bring my IR gun.

From the phone.

There is an old thread on the 'other' forum that proposed a similar idea, but using Porshe air deflectors. Part numbers 993 341 083 00 and 993 341 084 00. They are $27.75 each from Pelican Parts - Porsche Parts & BMW Parts - Automotive Parts and Accessories - Porsche & BMW (http://www.pelicanparts.com), a porshe and bmw parts supplier. Some fabrication of simple mounting tabs on the lower front control arm would be necessary, but nothing difficult. I'd post the link to that thread in the other forum, but not sure if that's kosher. :)

[Erron Spalsbury]

Frame rails with a shroud. $10 in metal, 1hr of time :) http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/Colorado3s/Photo_052712_003.jpg

Now I see what you were talking about! That's pretty darn coolio. Was all they were running or was a hose attachment piece between what we see here and the hub? How was it attached on the front of the car, tubing and ducts I assume?

[J. Fast]

Peel back the front crashbar impact pads and extend the frame rails to the front bumper with some sheet metal. Reinforce the cutout in the fenderwell by gusseting 2/3 fore and aft the cut with a 1/16" mending plate. All you really need is to redirect the air with a shroud but you can extend it if you want it. Opening should be a natural line on your bumper. I can make you a plenum if you want and build you a mending plate since I have it jigged. Or, you could drop the plate and reinforcement and just seam weld the wheel well to make it more rigid. There's plenty of metal there. There's 4 layers of box tube.

[Hans@GZP]

I have 10 passenger sides. Waiting on more driver sides. They are saying September for the driver side. Apparently Mitsubishi ran out and are having more produced.

[DocWalt]

I never knew those MR brake cooling guides existed. Interesting. Watching this thread to see what you end up doing Erron.

[R/T93]

I have 10 passenger sides. Waiting on more driver sides. They are saying September for the driver side. Apparently Mitsubishi ran out and are having more produced.

Wow, glad I got that last set.

[Erron Spalsbury]

I really like the using the frame rail idea. On the passenger side I have such a little amount of space that really makes the most sense to me. Not to mention the lack of hoses rubbing against the tires is a BIG bonus. I had the 3" hoses about as flat as you could get them and zip tied to the A arm but they still would occasionally run. Plus rocks and being flexed continuously I was always duct taping them up. I'm going to tackle this head long this weekend. I'll take some pictures along the way.

[MR2]

I've always wanted to build slits into an area just above a splitter for ducting, in reality the vanes are less complicated/less to go wrong so i might try that next time I have a problem

[FeaRpb]

If you do the frame idea, please do a write up. That looks really interesting.

[green-lantern]

I have 10 passenger sides. Waiting on more driver sides. They are saying September for the driver side. Apparently Mitsubishi ran out and are having more produced.

Don't forget that I want a set. LMK when they come in.

[Erron Spalsbury]

Well, the frame rail idea is good, but holy cow would it require a ton of work to do. I had the hose and ducts in hand and started in on it. The square hole is just shy of 2.5" in diameter. I popped the rivets on the 5mph shock mount inside the rail. Looked down in there and ugh, there's more in there. A few pieces of folded steel in various configurations. Not only that, they are no where near air tight. Could it be done, yes. In a day without major mods in a pretty structural area, no. It was a risk I wasn't willing to take.
Sooooo....
I decided to build scoops or deflectors instead. Something I see on the open wheel cars all the time but somewhat adapted to our cars.
Let me first say, there is a very little amount of room down there. Especially when the tire is turn full clock. Then, it's also attached to the A-arm so it goes up and down with the tire so it has to clear the frame rails and what not. It can be done, but took a few revisions. It ends up looking something like this....

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/8155/85066037.jpg

From the side, something like this... It just takes the air going under the car and pushes over into the wheel well, right at the center of the hub. Seemed to work great with a very simple hair dryer test.
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9800/12850078.jpg

Other side, same deal. Close, but not too close. At full clock it just hits the edge of the raised lettering on the tire. (not that I ever have this car at full clock, ever)
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3420/12218154.jpg

The whole thing hangs down about 2.5 inches lower than the crossmembers. (about the same as my 4" exhaust at the resonator)
Let's hope it works. If it doesn't, the next step will be to get air to these things. Getting it to the hub is tricky. My old ducts were 1"x4" oval. (aka, tiny)

[J-Groove]

Don't forget that I want a set. LMK when they come in.

:stupid:

I want a set too. :)

-John

[Stealth_RT]

Looks good Erron. Have you done a hair-dryer test with them yet with the front splitter installed? Wonder if the splitter will greatly reduce the amount of air reaching your scoops? And wow those SS braided AN lines look REALLY close to that front tire, or is that just an illusion due to camera angle?

[Erron Spalsbury]

Those are oil lines. :) Yes, optical illusion from the weird camera angle. They are a good 8 inches from the tire. (or more) I haven't done any testing what-so-ever with the splitter. Just in the garage type of stuff. I'm now looking into another set of titanium backing plates for the AP's. I had these made for the stock brakes back in the late 90's and had a huge increase in brake temp without fluid boil so I'm trying to find a set or have a set cut for the AP's.

[J. Fast]

Well, the frame rail idea is good, but holy cow would it require a ton of work to do. I had the hose and ducts in hand and started in on it. The square hole is just shy of 2.5" in diameter. I popped the rivets on the 5mph shock mount inside the rail. Looked down in there and ugh, there's more in there. A few pieces of folded steel in various configurations. Not only that, they are no where near air tight. Could it be done, yes. In a day without major mods in a pretty structural area, no. It was a risk I wasn't willing to take.
Sooooo....
I decided to build scoops or deflectors instead. Something I see on the open wheel cars all the time but somewhat adapted to our cars.

From the side, something like this... It just takes the air going under the car and pushes over into the wheel well, right at the center of the hub. Seemed to work great with a very simple hair dryer test.

Other side, same deal. Close, but not too close. At full clock it just hits the edge of the raised lettering on the tire. (not that I ever have this car at full clock, ever)

The whole thing hangs down about 2.5 inches lower than the crossmembers. (about the same as my 4" exhaust at the resonator)

Let's hope it works. If it doesn't, the next step will be to get air to these things. Getting it to the hub is tricky. My old ducts were 1"x4" oval. (aka, tiny)

Here we go again with the air under the car thing. With a splitter air will probably not ever see those shrouds. Be better off going back to the hoses.

So what's structural about aft the front strut towers? Pretty sure nothing unless you have a crashbar? Don't even need the front motormount or the front crossmember. Was a full day to build actual functional brake ducts proven to work on a championship cup car too hard? I don't get it?

Sometimes solutions take hard work and time. I keep seeing quick and cheap fixes and this cycle of failing over and over because it would require hard work or take too much effort and time to fix it right. Why not just put the time in out of the gate so you can spend it doing something else later?

Those shrouds won't work on racecar with undertray Erron. You have to physically direct air to them. As a matter of fact, you have to consolidate and direct air to everything you want cooled. You can't just throw your thumb out and say, "go that way".

Please don't be offended by my criticism, E-Dogg, we're good friends. You gotta quit hitting the "easy button" and put in the hard work for the results your after. Don't worry, my car is done and yada yada yada... I'm going to put a whoop on you at the track if you run this cheap fix stuff, watch.

I will post up how to convert our frame rails into functional brake ducts. Mine are done. When I get some time I'll snap pics and post a writup in this thread.

[Erron Spalsbury]

Here we go again with the air under the car thing. With a splitter air will probably not ever see those shrouds. Be better off going back to the hoses.

It's well below the splitter horizontal line. Holy hell, do you listen?



So what's structural about aft the front strut towers? Pretty sure nothing unless you have a crashbar? Don't even need the front motormount or the front crossmember. Was a full day to build actual functional brake ducts proven to work on a championship cup car too hard? I don't get it?

Yes, I'm tired of working on the car. I want to drive it, not bench race it for the next year.



Sometimes solutions take hard work and time. I keep seeing quick and cheap fixes and this cycle of failing over and over because it would require hard work or take too much effort and time to fix it right. Why not just put the time in out of the gate so you can spend it doing something else later?

Excuse me? Quick and cheap fixes? You haven't even raced, once, ever. How do you know what works and what doesn't? I'm so done with this.



Those shrouds won't work on racecar with undertray Erron. You have to physically direct air to them. As a matter of fact, you have to consolidate and direct air to everything you want cooled. You can't just throw your thumb out and say, "go that way".

Tell that to Porsche. It was their idea originally. They'll work, watch.



Please don't be offended by my criticism, E-Dogg, we're good friends. You gotta quit hitting the "easy button" and put in the hard work for the results your after. Don't worry, my car is done and yada yada yada... I'm going to put a whoop on you at the track if you run this cheap fix stuff, watch.

Too late, I am offended. Are you really challenging me to a race? Holy hell, YES! You can't buy talent. :lol7:

Jer, I'm tired of the 2nd hand knowledge from hanging out in race shops being taken as gospel. It's just silly, saying this won't work, or that won't work. If we don't try nobody moves forward and really, this is no different than the deflectors that the MR or GTR, or GT3RS, or any other factory race car comes with. These are even lower into the airstream than the stock variety. Why do you post negative stuff but then call me and discuss it? This is also the reason, from now on, I'll keep my posts over on a forum that has open, positive discussions. At least you could say, "that might work".




I will post up how to convert our frame rails into functional brake ducts. Mine are done. When I get some time I'll snap pics and post a writup in this thread.

Good. I won't be here to read it.
See ya...

[FeaRpb]

Here we go again with the air under the car thing. With a splitter air will probably not ever see those shrouds. Be better off going back to the hoses.

So what's structural about aft the front strut towers? Pretty sure nothing unless you have a crashbar? Don't even need the front motormount or the front crossmember. Was a full day to build actual functional brake ducts proven to work on a championship cup car too hard? I don't get it?

Sometimes solutions take hard work and time. I keep seeing quick and cheap fixes and this cycle of failing over and over because it would require hard work or take too much effort and time to fix it right. Why not just put the time in out of the gate so you can spend it doing something else later?

Those shrouds won't work on racecar with undertray Erron. You have to physically direct air to them. As a matter of fact, you have to consolidate and direct air to everything you want cooled. You can't just throw your thumb out and say, "go that way".

Please don't be offended by my criticism, E-Dogg, we're good friends. You gotta quit hitting the "easy button" and put in the hard work for the results your after. Don't worry, my car is done and yada yada yada... I'm going to put a whoop on you at the track if you run this cheap fix stuff, watch.

I will post up how to convert our frame rails into functional brake ducts. Mine are done. When I get some time I'll snap pics and post a writup in this thread.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg

[Maximal]

Jer, I'm tired of the 2nd hand knowledge from hanging out in race shops being taken as gospel. It's just silly, saying this won't work, or that won't work. If we don't try nobody moves forward and really, this is no different than the deflectors that the MR or GTR, or GT3RS, or any other factory race car comes with. These are even lower into the airstream than the stock variety. Why do you post negative stuff but then call me and discuss it? This is also the reason, from now on, I'll keep my posts over on a forum that has open, positive discussions. At least you could say, "that might work".

Good. I won't be here to read it.
See ya...

Can you direct me to this forum? I for one find your posts rather beneficial...

[FeaRpb]

Can you direct me to this forum? I for one find your posts rather beneficial...

Times 2

[HLxDrummer]

Times 2

:stupid:

[J. Fast]

Excuse me? Quick and cheap fixes? You haven't even raced, once, ever. How do you know what works and what doesn't?

Jer, I'm tired of the 2nd hand knowledge from hanging out in race shops being taken as gospel. It's just silly, saying this won't work, or that won't work. If we don't try nobody moves forward and really, this is no different than the deflectors that the MR or GTR, or GT3RS, or any other factory race car comes with. These are even lower into the airstream than the stock variety. Why do you post negative stuff but then call me and discuss it? This is also the reason, from now on, I'll keep my posts over on a forum that has open, positive discussions. At least you could say, "that might work".
You speak as if I haven't built with you, bled with you, and been there in real life to witness all the little details always being left out and not discussed. I've been witness not by what bits are carefully shared on the internet but infact in person, and for many many years. All the time that's past I've just sort of "observed" and kept lots of note to self "hrmm's" and "interesting's" that've all led up to my very observant and well founded opinions regarding the global picture of things.

You bet I ask Bob and Dax questions, I'm not building things over and trying this and that. Its one time. I'm not going spend thousands for one session and maybe 10 laps. I'm building to win, not just to say I was out there to turn out laps. Fix this and that for the time being, that's not good enough for me.

I've always been real and for the longest time, silent. Now that I've observed, and by my own accounting witnessed, does that mean I can't voice my observations and opinions? I know you Erron, not just internet snapshots. You lnow me, why would you talk down to me like this?






Too late, I am offended. Are you really challenging me to a race? Holy hell, YES! You can't buy talent. :lol7:

Being competitive? Is that really what this this comment was all about? Is that what it will take for me to have a voice? I am prepared to hit the track and have covered all my bases. So let's open em up, run em wild, and go have fun!





Good. I won't be here to read it.
See ya...

After all that I've done and gone out of my way to do for you, that's it? Okay? I'm going to go back to work and scratch my head as to why we can't discuss things out in the open and why sometimes its okay to be wrong, and why you would say something like that to me, anywhere?

[MR2]

rofl! 3si drama claims another :)

[Rakuny]

Can you direct me to this forum? I for one find your posts rather beneficial...

Times 2

:stupid:
I 4th this

[anyonebutme]

3stech yo!







sorry.

[Maximal]

That's sorta what I figured, gotta look for the thread now I suppose.
:p

[Boost4VR4]

You speak as if I haven't built with you, bled with you, and been there in real life to witness all the little details always being left out and not discussed. I've been witness not by what bits are carefully shared on the internet but infact in person, and for many many years. All the time that's past I've just sort of "observed" and kept lots of note to self "hrmm's" and "interesting's" that've all led up to my very observant and well founded opinions regarding the global picture of things.

You bet I ask Bob and Dax questions, I'm not building things over and trying this and that. Its one time. I'm not going spend thousands for one session and maybe 10 laps. I'm building to win, not just to say I was out there to turn out laps. Fix this and that for the time being, that's not good enough for me.

I've always been real and for the longest time, silent. Now that I've observed, and by my own accounting witnessed, does that mean I can't voice my observations and opinions? I know you Erron, not just internet snapshots. You lnow me, why would you talk down to me like this?




Being competitive? Is that really what this this comment was all about? Is that what it will take for me to have a voice? I am prepared to hit the track and have covered all my bases. So let's open em up, run em wild, and go have fun!




After all that I've done and gone out of my way to do for you, that's it? Okay? I'm going to go back to work and scratch my head as to why we can't discuss things out in the open and why sometimes its okay to be wrong, and why you would say something like that to me, anywhere?

Problem is he produces results and all you do is criticize the results, but I bet you copy everything he does and it doesn't work out for you. I for one have never thought that anything Erron has posted has been diarrhea of the mouth; it has always been useful information. If it does work, what are you going to do? Say it doesn't cool the brakes sufficiently enough because XYZ? Probably. I say you produce results or constructively bring points out about how you feel it it could work better, not spew stuff out completely denouncing the idea....

/rant

[J. Fast]

Had to step away for a few days to simmer down. Sorry I hurt your feelings Erron. I'll try to work on being more supportive.

[Erron Spalsbury]

Removed

[DocWalt]

read that as honey. oh man.

[Erron Spalsbury]

read that as honey. oh man.

LOL! Uh, no....

Home-eee, home-eeee, as in buddy. :)

[CoopKill]

Had to read that twice myself, :lol:

[arm0red1]

read that as honey. oh man.

Soooo um, it wasnt just me then


......this thread suddenly got more awkward haha, i though it felt like i was reading a lovers quarrel :p


Btw, i believe its TECHNICALLY spelled 'homie' to possibly further distinct itself as a word and to avoid some.....erm.....confusion hahah

[Unlogic]

I bought these from Hans.


http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/Ultor2/IMAG0790.jpg

They are from the MR's. See the 2nd mounting hole? MR control arms had a 2nd bracket.

They seem to work, I haven't had a previous sifting setup but my last track event in March (rain, temp in the 50's, the front calipers were only 150 degrees after a cooldown lap where the rears were 250+.

We can test them at NG, a few other guys have the same front brakes as me, I will bring my IR gun.

From the phone.

Came across this thread last night so while spending some time in the garage I took photo with my phone.

Here is how they are mounted on the MR and Eurospec cars using both bolt holes:

http://pics.unlogic.se/3000gt/IMAG1570.jpg

[arm0red1]

Hmmmmm, that looks simple enough to fabricate- are there provisions to install something similar on the rear control arms? I havent looked back at mine too closely before i put it in storage for winter