Suggestions to complement my Supercharger upgrade

[Blown3000]

Looking for suggestions to take my supercharged 3000GT up a step or two. Currently running a Thomas Knight supercharger system using an FMU for fuel control running about 6 psi of boost. Like to focus mainly on simple motor or motor accessories. Nothing that will have any major impacts on fuel mileage, maintenance, or reliability.

[Dbeltran24]

Pulley?

[Blown3000]

Pulley?

Supercharger or Crank? Supercharger is 2.5 Crank is stock.

[ibsorgn]

Looking for suggestions to take my supercharged 3000GT up a step or two. Currently running a Thomas Knight supercharger system using an FMU for fuel control running about 6 psi of boost. Like to focus mainly on simple motor or motor accessories. Nothing that will have any major impacts on fuel mileage, maintenance, or reliability.

I would suggest that the next logical upgrade would be to replace the exhaust system with a less restrictive one. I installed long tube headers first, then replaced my OEM exhaust system but I believe the greater improvement was seen with the larger tubes and smoother flow through muffler and resonators. Warning, Because of the exhaust mods, you are most likely going to see the engine run leaner, and at your boost level using the FMU, you will likely be at the end of what your NA fuel system can handle.

[Blown3000]

I would suggest that the next logical upgrade would be to replace the exhaust system with a less restrictive one. I installed long tube headers first, then replaced my OEM exhaust system but I believe the greater improvement was seen with the larger tubes and smoother flow through muffler and resonators. Warning, Because of the exhaust mods, you are most likely going to see the engine run leaner, and at your boost level using the FMU, you will likely be at the end of what your NA fuel system can handle.

Wrote to you a while back but your email address got kicked back. Glad your back. Car is running very well and I thought I might take another performance step. Anything special concerning the exhaust system, building, parts, size etc?

[ibsorgn]

Wrote to you a while back but your email address got kicked back. Glad your back. Car is running very well and I thought I might take another performance step. Anything special concerning the exhaust system, building, parts, size etc?

My Internet carrier changed and I've been having some trouble for the past few weeks with receiving mail addressed to my old provider. To your question of an exhaust system, I pulled my entire system out and replaced it. I based my exhaust plumbing off a Flowmaster 40 with a single inlet dual outlet muffler. I believe the inlet was 2 3/4 or 3" and the outlets were 2". I mounted the flowmaster around the same location as the old OEM resonator. The system was way too loud, In fact it sounded louder than running straight out the headers. Resonance was so bad that it felt like I was driving inside a 50 gallon drum. I then decided to add a pair of short glass packs (12" long), just before the exhaust tips. Must have killed the resonance by 75 - 80 percent. Really nice throaty tone but, for me it was still too loud. My final mod was to add another 20" glass pack before the flowmaster and that did the trick. Maybe I should have tried that first but I didn't think about it. On the down side I lost a stainless steel system which are quite expensive however my flow through system cost me less than $325. Sure it won't last as long as those $1000+ borla systems but it sounds nice and performs very well.

BTW, one fellow mentioned "Pulley?" I don't know if that was a question or he was suggestion a change to increase boost. Don't increase boost without preparing for fuel upgrades as your FMU is nearing your NA's fuel capabilities. More on that later if you wish to discuss.

[Blown3000]

Would you recommend headers or a better downpipe. Also what type of headers did you use.

[ibsorgn]

Would you recommend headers or a better downpipe. Also what type of headers did you use.

They make some pretty nice downpipes, and that is a bottle neck area for these cars. I don't have any experience with down pipes so I can't really talk intelligently about them but maybe one of the forum members will reply. I think, if you have the money and time, a good set of stainless steel long tube headers would be a wise choice. I put on a set of OBX racing headers and am quite happy, however I wished that I had installed fore and aft O2 bungs before I hung the steel. The OBXs ran me less than $400 and they use 3/8" flanges, 16 gauge mandrel bent 304 stainless steel which is about as good as it gets. Workmenship looked well. Don't think that paying any more for big name tubes are going to buy anymore quality. A good flow through exhaust system is worth 6-8% increase in torque and hp so it is money well spent IMHO.
p.s. expect your motor to run a little leaner

[3000gttom]

assuming the manifolds flow ok you will possibly make more power across the rpm range with a downpipe because the headers will flow backwards at times and you dont really need to take advantage of scavenging when your boosted

the next thing to do would be to upgrade your fuel system and get a good tuning setup with fuel and timing control

adjustable cam gears would also be smart (or maybe switch to vr4 exhaust cams which may be cheaper), you could take away overlap and keep from blowing air and fuel out the other side of the engine which would make more power and better fuel mileage(and better emissions if you have to test for emissions)

idk what kinda intake your running but the n/a runners probably are less than ideal for a supercharged setup....maybe run a big plenum going all the way to the lower intake manifold so the harmonic oscilation doesnt really hurt you too much

[Blown3000]

Thx 3000GTTOM, Interesting point concerning the downpipe and I will keep that in mind when I make my final decision on the exhaust system. I know that upgrading my fuel system will need to be address but after thinking about things I will leave that area for a future upgrade. However I'm all ears for ideas. I should state that my objective for performance is to create a reliable, maintenance free DD which will still offer high 20s mpg. I have no intention to race the car but want to create enough power to make it stand out from its peers. Also I want to stay away from internal modifications.

Oh, the intake I'm running consist of a large plenum attached to the lower intake manifold. The supercharger is mounted on its side with the blower exiting directly into the plenum.

[3000gttom]

well then, cam gears would be the first thing i would do to take out the overlap in the cams, because with the n/a cams you are going to be blowing unburned fuel and oxygen out the exhaust, this will net you more power and mileage

then downpipe to get more power

next would be a good tuning setup like a 99 ecu clone or aem, and have your own wideband

if you want mileage and reliability then you may want to fabricate a supercharger bypass to keep it from constant boosting

[Blown3000]

well then, cam gears would be the first thing i would do to take out the overlap in the cams, because with the n/a cams you are going to be blowing unburned fuel and oxygen out the exhaust, this will net you more power and mileage

then downpipe to get more power

next would be a good tuning setup like a 99 ecu clone or aem, and have your own wideband

if you want mileage and reliability then you may want to fabricate a supercharger bypass to keep it from constant boosting

Cam gears? I guess that you lost me! Maybe a little detail to help me understand. My boost gauge doesn't show that I'm constantly under boost so I'm not understanding. I do have a wideband O2 installed.

[3000gttom]

with stock cams there is a period of time that both the intake and exhaust valves are open, with the supercharger you are blowing air and fuel into the intake valve and then they go out the exhaust valve that is still open, you use adjustable cam gears to take the overlap period out, this will result in more effective boost and you may have boost at low rpms once you do this so a bypass may then be useful

[Blown3000]

with stock cams there is a period of time that both the intake and exhaust valves are open, with the supercharger you are blowing air and fuel into the intake valve and then they go out the exhaust valve that is still open, you use adjustable cam gears to take the overlap period out, this will result in more effective boost and you may have boost at low rpms once you do this so a bypass may then be useful

Okay I see. That makes sense if injectors are spraying during that entire period the intake valves are open but I read that the injectors do not spray the entire duration, especially below the higher rpms. In carburetored motors I totally see your point.

You used the term "may have boost" are you speaking in theoretical terms?

[3000gttom]

on the boost thing, right now there is probably enough time that both valves are open that you dont read any boost because enough air has been blown out the other side of the engine. if you use cam gears to remove the overlap with a positive displacement supercharger like yours then you will probably have boost through the entire rpm range and therefore would need to add fuel at low rpms because your boosting


edit: if anyone knows for sure about when the injectors fire i'd like to know for sure

[ibsorgn]

In the 6g72 the fuel is sprayed when the intake valve is open. The amount of fuel injected is calculated as a pulsewidth which is defined in milliseconds. The higher the rpm and load, among other variables, the longer the pulsewidth (more fuel is injected). Modern day injectors are engineered to atomize the fuel when open.
When a bypass valve is used, when open, will equalize the vacuum pressure throughout the entire system eliminating nearly all the parasitic loss. According to Magnuson their MP90 will use less than 1/2 a hp to spin the supercharger. See Magnuson web site for complete specs.

[3000gttom]

thx for clarification,

still in stock form the overlap in the cam timing allows fuel and air to be pushed out the exhaust

[ibsorgn]

thx for clarification,

still in stock form the overlap in the cam timing allows fuel and air to be pushed out the exhaust

Air for sure, probably some Fuel at higher rpms due to longer pulsewidth. ECU Fuel maps will richen AFs when operating in high throttle mode.

Blown3000: Keep your eye on that wideband gauge when running under boost for any indications of lean operation especially if you mod that exhaust as your propably nearing your AF tiping point.

[Blown3000]

Have chosen to go with Long tube headers and a low restriction exhaust. Should have everything installed over this weekend. In keeping with my desire not to make internal modifications I chose not to go the cam gear route. Should the motor go lean with these mods can you suggest cures? I know that eventually the real fix is an injector upgrade as will as an ECU and/or a piggyback controller. Just trying to be proactive.

[3000gttom]

just be sure to log everything and be especially careful in the mid rpm's because the stock fuel map is kinda lean there for boost...but seriously a proper tuning setup is necessary on a supercharger build if you plan on keeping this car on the road

[ibsorgn]

just be sure to log everything and be especially careful in the mid rpm's because the stock fuel map is kinda lean there for boost...but seriously a proper tuning setup is necessary on a supercharger build if you plan on keeping this car on the road

When I was at Blown3000's stage of mod, only at the upper RPMs were lean AFs noted. Running a FMU, which I believe he is doing presently, tends to have its limits, and if the injectors are weak the FMU will magnify that weakness. Not really much you can do with tuning unless you move to some technology that will allow you to modify timing and fuel. Blown, if after you get your exhaust system in and you can't keep those AFs in the low 12s at the upper rpms with full boost you got to add more fuel. Probably the easiest fix would be to add a WMI system (Water methanol or alcohol injection. Olde skool I know, but it works. The WMI will give you added benefits. Spraying just in front of the throttle body will cool the SC and charge and will act as a intercooler. Second adding alcohol or methanol will effectively raise the octane level so that detonation (knock) will not be a problem. Third, should you ever increase your boost levels (to a limit) you will be set. Fourth the fluid will help seal the rotors and you will gain some of that lost roots efficiency.
Congradulations, shortly you will begin living in the same world that "The Old Lady Who Swallowed a Fly" lives in (one fix leads to another issue who's fix lead to another issue and so on and so on....

[3000gttom]

for sure, it would be easiest to get a flashable ecu to start with

and after you have a good tune is when you want to get into wmi so that you can cool the supercharger to have better efficiency at high rpm's

but the only way to have a safe sc build for daily use is a flashable or standalone ecu

[Blown3000]

for sure, it would be easiest to get a flashable ecu to start with

and after you have a good tune is when you want to get into wmi so that you can cool the supercharger to have better efficiency at high rpm's

but the only way to have a safe sc build for daily use is a flashable or standalone ecu

What kind of money you talking about? Never thought that I had an unsafe supercharger build, can you explain a little more about that point? BTW, are you running a supercharger?

Installed my headers and had my local muffler shop build a flow-through exhaust system based on a flowmaster 40 1into2 and used those little 12" glass shorties as resonators. Sound is very throaty. I.B., you were right the motor runs lean at the higher rpms under full boost. Motor feels more loose and free with the exhaust and has more power at all rpms. Boy, under full boost the exhaust sounds like the outlet of a leaf blower! Can definitely hear that air being blown through the exhaust pipes. I.B., What did you do for tuning on your build as I believe that your system and mine are pretty much alike?

[3000gttom]

once under boost, the ecu in the stock map want it to be at 13.1 afr in the lower rpm's with high load, and then richens up to 10.7 afr at high rpm

your fmu will add fuel pressure to make that 13.1 spot richer but up top it will be extremely rich which is not good for the motor

if you are leaning out up top its because the injectors cant handle the increased flow from the higher pressure which is bad for the injectors, and if one fails entirely then you could have big problems

you cant really take shortcuts in your fueling system and have a car that is reliable...the cost to switch to a flashable would depend on which year your car is, but the ability to tune properly should be a top priority

you may not need injector upgrades once you tune it out either

edit: i'm not supercharged, not would i ever attempt to be without proper tuning

[Blown3000]

you cant really take shortcuts in your fueling system and have a car that is reliable...the cost to switch to a flashable would depend on which year your car is, but the ability to tune properly should be a top priority



I own a 95 3000GT SL

[3000gttom]

you'd need an ecu, a conversion harness, and tactrix cable at least, maybe more

its not cheap but it, maybe $1k or more, but its much safer

im not an expert on converting your motor to the 98-99 electronics but there are a lot of people on the board that can help give you a better idea of what is involved

[ibsorgn]

The proper solution to your fuel needs is a fuel system upgrade. Although the FMU is a solution, it demands that the injectors must work to their total capacity. Should any weakness develop (injectors, fuel pump, fuel regulator etc) lean conditions will occur.
With the WMI your fueling issues are addressed but it is more of a patch than a permanent fix. However don't think that it is a waste of money because WMI provides numerous benefits as I outlined in an earlier post. The only draw back is that you must have the "boost juice" available when you put your foot to the floor. In other words you have to insure that your reservoir has fluid in it.
Please note that the additional stress that the FMU will put on the injectors and fuel pump will lead to poor operation and eventually cause failure.

With the above in mind the permanent solution is upgrade to a higher capacity fuel pump, larger volume injectors and a adjustable fuel regulator. With the larger injectors you will have to have a ECU that can control them. Also, to take advantage of your forced induction motor, appropriate timing maps would be in order which will enhance the performance of its operation.

A standalone ECU as suggested by 3000gttom would be a solution however the cost would be quite high and the work would be extensive, however I guess extensive is a relative term.

For an ECU solution I would recommend moving to a 1st gen TT ECU and with a couple of wiring changes, mostly disconnections, and the addition of a thermal sensor to control the radiator fans will give the ability to control TT 360 injectors and run TT fuel and timing maps. Note: You would not have to change the wiring harness.

I disagree with 3000gttom that you could stay with the stock injectors because they will simply not flow the volumes needed to sufficiently fuel the motor.

Man I'm going on and on. I'll stop here as there is plenty to chew on. Remember one thing, if your AFs are showing normal and you don't hear knocking or your plugs don't show signs of detonation your safe. If you go lean and/or you get detonation get your foot off the accelerator. I ran with your configuration (w/WMA) for well over a year before I upgraded the Fuel and ECU without any adverse effects.

[3000gttom]

^^^ he's the one to listen to about the injectors (i was just speculating from how the stock ecu adds a ton of fuel up top vs. a tuned ecu that would stay at a normal afr)

if your going to convert ecu's its best to go 99 since it has pretty much any feature you'll find on a standalone, and you have the option to just use a n/a 99 ecu (cheaper) since you have no bcs to worry about

the work needed to do a standalone style tune is a lot but you are supercharging a motor that was not tuned for a supercharger, efi motors have their benefits and drawbacks, these are not like muscle cars where you would adjust the carburetor a little, take a couple degrees off the base timing on the distributor and be done, these motors take advantage of changing timing and fuel in all situations which helps a lot but makes life harder for modders

my opinion is that if you've come this far, dont skimp out on the core factors of making the motor run properly

[Blown3000]

I installed the Water Alcohol injection and it works beautifully. Set the boost switch to trigger the WA injection at the earilest sign of boost maybe 1 to 1 1/2 psi. I'm using window washer fluid (WWF) rated at -20 degrees and add about a 1/3 of a gallon of alcohol to each gallon of WWF. According to my calculations that should be about a 50/50 mix. You can definitely smell the alcohol burning. I hear no knock and AFs call to under 12 when injecting. Thanks I.B.
Now, just for fun I would like to compare costs of fuel upgrades between using a 1st gen ECU and injector setup to what 3000gttom suggested (AEM and/or 99 flashable ecu and injector upgrade). Oh, how difficult is it to do the upgrade and did you do the upgrade yourself?

[ibsorgn]

Now, just for fun I would like to compare costs of fuel upgrades between using a 1st gen ECU and injector setup to what 3000gttom suggested (AEM and/or 99 flashable ecu and injector upgrade). Oh, how difficult is it to do the upgrade and did you do the upgrade yourself?

I can only talk intelligently about what I did and what were the costs. My fuel and ECU upgrades revolved around the use of a 1st Gen TT ECU. I did this for several reasons, 1) It did not involve a wiring harness change, 2) A TT ECU is programmed with sufficient timing and fuel maps to support my forced induction needs, 3) Would drive larger injectors allowing the removal of the FMU, 4) IMHO, Arguably the simplest, easiest, and most cost effective way to support a supercharged setup. The second piece of the puzzle relates to fuel hardware. There I chose TT injectors, an Eclipse GST fuel pump, 6 ohm resistors and a adjustable fuel regulator. Because the 1st gen ECU does not control the radiator fans I had to setup a thermo control to operate the fans. I chose a Derale thermo fan controller.
I can't remember the exact prices I paid for this hardware but the number should be relatively close.

TT ECU (used) - $200 put new caps in it just in case!
TT Injectors (used) - $50 Rebuild cost $90
Resistors - $8
Fuel pump - $60
Fuel regulator - $45
Derale - $30
Miscellaneous - $20

Total - $495

I took a brief look at a AEM Series 2 at $1500+ and another grand to have it tuned and programmed. I quickly lost interest but it is probably the way to go if your a serious tuner. I'm not!

I do have to admit that I also purchased a APEXI NEO (On sale for $175) when I was still operating under the FMU (8psi of boost) because I falsely thought that between the NEO and the FMU I could control the fuel needs of the motor. Wrong! I found that when you lie too much to the ECU about air flow you will cause the timing to become so far out of whack that you can harm the engine not to mention loose performance. I discovered that the ECU determines LOAD based on air flow and LOAD and RPM determines timing. Lying about air flow will ultimately distort timing.

I employ my NEO but mostly for low throttle operation and primarily for fuel economy. I pretty much leave high throttle operation untouched as the ECU does a very good job with fuel needs. Maybe a little richer than I like but richer is safer.

BTW, I still use my WAI.

[Blown3000]

I.B. You didn't mention what the difficultly and complexity level of the mods. Would I be correct in assuming that you did the mods yourself?

[ibsorgn]

I.B. You didn't mention what the difficultly and complexity level of the mods. Would I be correct in assuming that you did the mods yourself?

To answer your last question first, Yes.. Difficulty and complexity on a scale of 10, I would say 5. Not so much concerning wrenching but more for finding the answers.

Simplest problem to resolve is swapping out the NA ECU to a TT ECU. I believe you have a manual transmission so the conversion is very easy. If you choose a 1st gen, and I believe you stated that you own a 95 SL, so you don't have to replace the wiring harness. Because I'm old, fat and stiff, the less time I spend in the cabin and under the dash the better, so the 1st gen swap was ideal for me. There are other ECU swaps but they involve more work and body flexibility.
In a nut shell the ECU swap involves disconnecting a few wires adding another O2 signal, wiring in a thermo switch and relays to control the radiator fans and adding resistors to control the low impedance injectors. Sounds like a lot of wiring but it is pretty straight forward and relatively easy.
Upgrading the fuel system is comparatively simple however the intake manifold and SC must come off to replace the injectors and of course to wire in the resistors. Not much of a challenge here just a lot of wrenching. Don't just replace the TT injectors without having them rebuilt unless of course you purchased new ones. Although the stock fuel regulator is sufficient I moved to an adjustable one which would allow me to play around with the fuel pressure which will give you another tuning aid. Besides AFRs are not that costly. Be sure to pull the FMU as you will no longer need it!
Lastly to handle the demands of the larger injectors you will need to replace the stock NA fuel pump rated around 160 lph, to a higher volume pump around 250lph. Most move to Denso or Walbro I just purchased a Eclipse GST replacement pump from Advanced Auto which was nearly a drop in. I encountered tremendous problems getting the lines unhooked. Don't know whether it was just my car but I read that others had difficulties getting theirs out too.

I didn't hotwire my pump as I didn't believe my build called for it but you can if you wish.

I have a few pixs of various mods if you need visuals.

We can discuss the SAFC at a later date as I'm getting writer's cramp.

[3000gttom]

depending on whether you have a cali spec or fed spec car, it may be cheaper to go with a 99 flashable ecu than converting to first gen

[Blown3000]

depending on whether you have a cali spec or fed spec car, it may be cheaper to go with a 99 flashable ecu than converting to first gen

My Car is Federal Spec. You appear to be big on this flashable ecu. How about detailing out the installation requirements and associated costs as Sorgn did as I would sure enjoy comparing complexity of work and costs. I just can't help but to think your solution might be more costly and difficult but I sure might not be seeing things properly. Also have you done this type of upgrade?

[NickS VR4]

My Car is Federal Spec. You appear to be big on this flashable ecu. How about detailing out the installation requirements and associated costs as Sorgn did as I would sure enjoy comparing complexity of work and costs. I just can't help but to think your solution might be more costly and difficult but I sure might not be seeing things properly. Also have you done this type of upgrade?

You are not a very friendly person and clearly don't like hearing things that you don't want to hear.

[Blown3000]

You are not a very friendly person and clearly don't like hearing things that you don't want to hear.

Boy, you lost me on that reply! What is it that I don't like hearing? I'm all ears for any ideas, that's why I started this post. 3000GTTom has giving me lots of food for thought. I respect his opinions and ideas. Like to have details or do you interpret that question as "things I'm not wanting to hear"?

[3000gttom]

you were kind of rude and clearly have not looked at all at flashable ecu's.

they are stock 98-99 ecu's, all you probably need is the wiring conversion and there are sellers that make the harnesses, it is likely easier to do than switching to a first gen with a cam angle sensor and whatever stuff they used,

and you get way more control over both timing and fuel, not just fuel, and you get launch control, you can set the check engine light to flash when you get engine knock, you'd have full logging support,

i have a 99 so there was no conversion needed for me, but seriously look into it you will probably save time and money with a flashable over a first gen ecu,

not to mention you can pass inspection because there is no safc keeping your CEL on

there are tons of threads on this just give it a search

[Blown3000]

you were kind of rude and clearly have not looked at all at flashable ecu's.

Just because I ask a question Don't make the assumption that I "Clearly have not looked" I have been doing a little research and what I had found was, the ECUs were running around $500 plus I need a Tactrix cable and was just not unable to get a clear picture as to my wiring harness and other supporting items. In addition, I assumed that I would still need larger injectors, fuel pump, resistor pack, software etc. But due to the fuzzy picture I was getting I thought that I would ask you as you had mentioned flashable ECUs as a solution several times. What about the total cost? Sure would like to compare all the items and their costs against I.B.Sorgn's inventory. In addition, what is a guessimate for tuning costs and the flash as I had read about guys spenting a grand and more on tuning? BTW, I didn't get the impression that a SAFC was required for a 1gen ECU swap. Does a SAFC trigger a CEL?
I'm still at a loss over this rudeness thing, maybe I just got some thick skin or some folks have some very thin skin. Maybe someone can point out were I'm going wrong?

[3000gttom]

well a first gen tt ecu is tuned for turbos, its too lean for the low rpm boosting of a sc, without a safc or other fuel controller you will ping the engine to death just at cruising rpms, and as far as i know with an safc you will have a CEL at all times so you cannot pass inspection, you will need to tune regardless of what path you take, the first gen just handicaps you to basic tuning

i think the clone ecu's are 400$ but you will only need an n/a 98-99 ecu since you dont need wastegate control which may only be 150-200$, the tactrix is like 170$, evoscan is 25$, adapter harness 200$ maybe ??

the best way to get an accurate figure is to ask the sellers what you need and how much it is, they are all on this forum and shouldnt be hard to get a hold of

[3000gttom]

http://www.3sgto.org/f62/original-vr4-clone%99-ecu-8761.html

clone ecu plus adapter harness for 625, but you probably just need an n/a ecu because these clones are equipped with wastegate control for the turbos, still best thing to do is ask (could probably ask the maker of that thread)

[ibsorgn]

well a first gen tt ecu is tuned for turbos, its too lean for the low rpm boosting of a sc, without a safc or other fuel controller you will ping the engine to death just at cruising rpms, and as far as i know with an safc you will have a CEL at all times so you cannot pass inspection, you will need to tune regardless of what path you take, the first gen just handicaps you to basic tuning

I run a 1st gen ECU with a supercharger set up and have done so for over 3 years. I have done all the research and subsequent wrenching myself so I speak from personal experience.
1.) You will not run lean, in fact you will run rich at high throttle operation
2.) At low throttle I've run my SAFC with negative values partly because to increase my fuel economy and mostly because the ECU favored the rich AFs
3). At cruising speed, about 2700rpms, I detect no knock
4). I get no CEL light with my SAFC
5) The 1st gen ECU gives you a stock, unchangable tune, which favors rich AFs for engine safety which supports manufacture warrantee.

After installing my 1st gen ECU along with the supporting fuel system, I felt that the tune was ideal (however slightly rich) for my mods. Engine was very peppy and very little knock was detected.
If one can be satisfied with a stock tune there is absolutely no need to go to the expense of a later model flashable ECU unless you have plans for the fuel system, more aggressive tuning etc.

Look, supercharging is just another form of forced induction, I guess you can say the ECU is tuned for turbos but that's like saying bears shit in the woods, Bottom line is the ECU accepts, air flow, rpm, knock, O2, temp signals etc to pull values from fuel and timing matrices to operate the motor, I don't think it cares how the air is pushed/pulled into the motor. Maybe if more air is being feed into the motor that what the ECU is programmed for, that could be a problem, but IMHO, you stay below one atmosphere your not going to have a problem.

BTW Blown, I intrepreted nothing you said as rude or unfriendly, those that did are just ultra-sensetive Nancy boys.

[Blackmount]

i want pics of said supercharger setup :D

[Blown3000]

i want pics of said supercharger setup :D

I'm on temporary assignment for the summer but I.B.Sorgn did a complete write up and published it on Stealth316.com. I pretty much followed his road map. Hes got to have pixs as his write-up is fully illustrated.

[3000gttom]

I run a 1st gen ECU with a supercharger set up and have done so for over 3 years. I have done all the research and subsequent wrenching myself so I speak from personal experience.
1.) You will not run lean, in fact you will run rich at high throttle operation
2.) At low throttle I've run my SAFC with negative values partly because to increase my fuel economy and mostly because the ECU favored the rich AFs
3). At cruising speed, about 2700rpms, I detect no knock
4). I get no CEL light with my SAFC
5) The 1st gen ECU gives you a stock, unchangable tune, which favors rich AFs for engine safety which supports manufacture warrantee.

After installing my 1st gen ECU along with the supporting fuel system, I felt that the tune was ideal (however slightly rich) for my mods. Engine was very peppy and very little knock was detected.
If one can be satisfied with a stock tune there is absolutely no need to go to the expense of a later model flashable ECU unless you have plans for the fuel system, more aggressive tuning etc.

Look, supercharging is just another form of forced induction, I guess you can say the ECU is tuned for turbos but that's like saying bears shit in the woods, Bottom line is the ECU accepts, air flow, rpm, knock, O2, temp signals etc to pull values from fuel and timing matrices to operate the motor, I don't think it cares how the air is pushed/pulled into the motor. Maybe if more air is being feed into the motor that what the ECU is programmed for, that could be a problem, but IMHO, you stay below one atmosphere your not going to have a problem.

BTW Blown, I intrepreted nothing you said as rude or unfriendly, those that did are just ultra-sensetive Nancy boys.

you're looking at it too broad,

1) at high load and high rpm's you will be rich yes, at low rpm's high load you will be lean
2)low throttle without the controller will be corrected just driving because it will be in closed loop
3)idk about 5 speed gearing because i have atx but the crossover point it at 2500 rpm, the ecu is programmed to have about 13 to 1 afr at 2000rpm and it richens at 2500rpm to 12 to 1 because thats when the turbos spool, i know that i cruise in the low 2k range a lot and that would definately worry me
4)i dont know from experience but ive seen a lot of threads saying that the safc throws the code and wont pass inspection(definitely something to look into if you need to pass inspection)
5)anywhere that the stock tt hits boost it is tuned at 12-1 or lower afr but below 2500rpm is an area that you may want to worry about, you cant just say that in general the ecu stays rich, there is more detail to look at

blown3k the bottom line is, if you want to follow his footsteps, go for it, you know exactly where you will end up, if you think you want to try a more reliable, more powerful build, then consider spending just a tiny bit more money and try a flashable ecu,

otherwise, definitely use that wmi to keep things healthy in the low rpm's

[ibsorgn]

3000GTTOM - Do you mind me asking what is your background and experience regarding this Thread? Would appreciate knowing how you arrived at these statements?

[3000gttom]

4283

this is the map that the ecu uses to determine how much fuel to use

it's not like i'm making crazy claims, its not hard to understand

[ibsorgn]

4283

this is the map that the ecu uses to determine how much fuel to use

it's not like i'm making crazy claims, its not hard to understand

3000GTTOM - I read your May 1st Threat about "starting a build". The fact of the matter is you have no experience or background on these cars much less any force induction firsthand knowledge, and that's why you keep dodging questions concerning your experience and background. You're kinda of like a blind man wanting to help a sighted person cross a street. Your goal is noble but you need to let folks know that you can't see (no real "hands on" experience). Unlike you, and many others like you, I feel very uncomfortable commenting on a subject unless I felt that I was qualified (real world experience). This apparently doesn't bother you but you should at least let the reader know where you're coming from and not let them assume your speaking from an experienced position.
What I've stated through out this thread is based on my personal experiences, not what I've read or overheard. If you ever decide to get your hands dirty you may find that the real world is quite different from, giving you the benefit of the doubt, "the theoretical".

[ibsorgn]

i want pics of said supercharger setup :D

What are you wanting to see? I assume you are requesting not demanding?

[3000gttom]

3000GTTOM - I read your May 1st Threat about "starting a build". The fact of the matter is you have no experience or background on these cars much less any force induction firsthand knowledge, and that's why you keep dodging questions concerning your experience and background. You're kinda of like a blind man wanting to help a sighted person cross a street. Your goal is noble but you need to let folks know that you can't see (no real "hands on" experience). Unlike you, and many others like you, I feel very uncomfortable commenting on a subject unless I felt that I was qualified (real world experience). This apparently doesn't bother you but you should at least let the reader know where you're coming from and not let them assume your speaking from an experienced position.
What I've stated through out this thread is based on my personal experiences, not what I've read or overheard. If you ever decide to get your hands dirty you may find that the real world is quite different from, giving you the benefit of the doubt, "the theoretical".

i really could care less if you attack me personally, even if not a single statement of mine is credible, thats still the fuel map that the tt ecu uses, ill let him decide if its ok to supercharge with because its not my car that might be damaged, lets not forget that you are running the ecu with a fuel controller, so how about you take that safc off since your all about real world and log what happens, maybe it will be safe maybe not

either way, im gonna be absolutely sure that what i do is safe in the theoretical world before i try in the real world

[ibsorgn]

i really could care less if you attack me personally, even if not a single statement of mine is credible, thats still the fuel map that the tt ecu uses, ill let him decide if its ok to supercharge with because its not my car that might be damaged, lets not forget that you are running the ecu with a fuel controller, so how about you take that safc off since your all about real world and log what happens, maybe it will be safe maybe not

either way, im gonna be absolutely sure that what i do is safe in the theoretical world before i try in the real world

Whatever - you got too thick a skull to deal with.

[3000gttom]

well you shouldn't have been claiming that the ecu will stay rich for saftey when that's not always the case,
your the one who should feel uncomfortable giving advice on the ecu because your thick skull was ignoring the details of the tune

dont tell me im a blind man, i spend a lot of time wrenching in the mechanic shop at work (township road department) and i can tell you that that has nothing to do with ecu tuning at all, the tune is available for everyone to see so why not just use that as the decision maker over whether or not he wants to supercharge with it

[Blown3000]

well you shouldn't have been claiming that the ecu will stay rich for saftey when that's not always the case,
your the one who should feel uncomfortable giving advice on the ecu because your thick skull was ignoring the details of the tune

dont tell me im a blind man, i spend a lot of time wrenching in the mechanic shop at work (township road department) and i can tell you that that has nothing to do with ecu tuning at all, the tune is available for everyone to see so why not just use that as the decision maker over whether or not he wants to supercharge with it

Bothered by what has been said in the last few posts I decided to review that one thread of yours entitled "Might be starting m build this summer" on 5/2/2012. Reading through the first several pages, many of the members got on you hard for your statements to the point that you withdrew from any further posting. I could not help but to notice that you deleted all the text from your initial post, which led me to believe that you must have been so embarrassed that you tried to hide it.

I also reviewed a number of charges you made against Sorgn and discovered you deliberately misquoted him. One very obvious example was when you stated that he was using his SAFC to support his statements about the 1st gen ecu making the motor run rich when in fact he stated that in High Throttle he made no correction and in Low Throttle he adjusted to purposely run lean for fuel economy. I can site other examples but I would be belaboring the point.

From the beginning of my thread I got the impression you were mod'ng and wrenching on these cars, now, once looking at your post with a bit more skepticism and your evading answering questions concerning your experience and background, I found that you are indeed an imposter.

What you are doing is disrespecting all those that have busted their knuckles, spent lots of money and time, not to mention long hours worrying about whether their mods and wrenching may ultimately destroy or a least cause harm and loss of good money and boat loads of time.

In the future, be honest enough to say whether what you're stating is based on "hands-on" experience or "second hand" information. That way you can allow the reader to digest and process the information whichever way they feel fit.

As a sidebar, I know I.B.Sorgn and he has been running his supercharged 3000GT for 3+ years. He does not blow smoke nor does he comment on anything that he hasn't had personal experience with. You can pretty much take his word to the bank.

BTW, That fuel map in your post #46 resembles very little to the fuel map posted in Stealth316.Com by Matt Jannusch.

[3000gttom]

if you dont want to listen to me thats ok, this will be my last post of this thread,

in my other thread, many many people flooded that thread with bashing posts with no knowledge of n/a tuning at all...so i have been slowly analyzing piece by piece(on a second motor in my garage) what would be involved in a high compression high revving 6g72 because no one on here could give valid information

when it comes to the ecu's in these my experience is hands on, i pulled the file from my car, merlin on the evo forum wrote me a basic definition file, and i am running my own custom tune right now,

the map i posted is pulled straight from the ecu and posted originally by gatecrasher or monochrome i believe, there is no guarentee that the tune from the 99 is the same as a first gen but its as close as you can possibly find because you cant pull those files from first gen ecu's

if you really want an inferior, less reliable computer system, go for it, im not gonna stop you, i'll be running my custom 0 knock tune and my motor will love it

[ibsorgn]

if you dont want to listen to me thats ok, this will be my last post of this thread,

in my other thread, many many people flooded that thread with bashing posts with no knowledge of n/a tuning at all...so i have been slowly analyzing piece by piece(on a second motor in my garage) what would be involved in a high compression high revving 6g72 because no one on here could give valid information

when it comes to the ecu's in these my experience is hands on, i pulled the file from my car, merlin on the evo forum wrote me a basic definition file, and i am running my own custom tune right now,

the map i posted is pulled straight from the ecu and posted originally by gatecrasher or monochrome i believe, there is no guarentee that the tune from the 99 is the same as a first gen but its as close as you can possibly find because you cant pull those files from first gen ecu's

if you really want an inferior, less reliable computer system, go for it, im not gonna stop you, i'll be running my custom 0 knock tune and my motor will love it

Good BYE

[Blown3000]

if you dont want to listen to me thats ok, this will be my last post of this thread,

in my other thread, many many people flooded that thread with bashing posts with no knowledge of n/a tuning at all...so i have been slowly analyzing piece by piece(on a second motor in my garage) what would be involved in a high compression high revving 6g72 because no one on here could give valid information

when it comes to the ecu's in these my experience is hands on, i pulled the file from my car, merlin on the evo forum wrote me a basic definition file, and i am running my own custom tune right now,

the map i posted is pulled straight from the ecu and posted originally by gatecrasher or monochrome i believe, there is no guarentee that the tune from the 99 is the same as a first gen but its as close as you can possibly find because you cant pull those files from first gen ecu's

if you really want an inferior, less reliable computer system, go for it, im not gonna stop you, i'll be running my custom 0 knock tune and my motor will love it

Does what's in red look familar? I found your initial post as apart of a 'reply with quote' in a later member's response. Doesn't look to me that your post centered around tuning! I think you just got caught with your pants around your knees again.

BTW, the map I referred to was not from a 1st gen. You sure make alot of asumptions.

¡Adiós!

not sure if im going to be able to afford it, i already have one 40hr/week job which ill need the cash from that for school, if i can get another job then all of that will be for the car there are a few things i am considering that i could use info on if anyone has it

first off, how high should i rev? i need info on when oiling becomes a problem? will either tranny shift at 9000rpm mtx or atx? does anyone know when the obx headers do their scavenging and when the flow reverses....just wandering will they allow 9k or only 8k or somewhere in between??? also want this to still work as a dd car so, can 300whp be done at 8k or will i need 9k because it looks like 9k will cost like 5x as much as an 8k build?

things to consider

1) i already have n/a longblock that will sit on my workbench all summer so this can be done over time (huge thanks to machzrcr on 3si for the motor)
it has forged crank, 2-bold main

i will definately go with high compression pistons, are the ross 12.5 the only ones on the market? also depending on 8k or 9k build, how much bottom end work needs done, balancing?, probably need full blueprint for 9k(very expensive)?

2) for heads, this is a heck of a list and i want it to stay usable as a daily driver so, should do porting at all on the intake side? will they flow for 300whp?
can i just polish the exhaust myself? do i stay with stock valves or go oversized? cam regrinds or crower? 272deg good for 8k? 280deg for 9k? which adjustables cam gears 3sx or fidanza? are crower springs retainers ok for 8k build? would 9k need double springs? my car is 99 so i have 99 lifters which will be fine at 8k, but will they hold up at 9k or do i need nelsons solids?

3)intake manifold does anyone know the effective runner lengths and runner area for the n/a manifold? anyone know the plenum volume? stock tb should be big enough? should the runner track before injectors be ported or smoother out?
(i think the rough surface is the keep fuel from sticking to the sides because the turbulence along the wall will pick it up better vs a smooth wall...maybe there is more too it in terms of just airflow or maybe contaminents from egr, i guess i could call my one engineer friend. he does a lot of fluid dynamicswork)

4)i already have obx headers, and thats pretty much the only design out there so id really like to know when they reverse flow...if it is before 9k then obviously ill do an 8k build because i have no way to fab headers

5) ecu tuning i have a 99sl, so 99 ecu, fully tune-able but only to 8k, 9k would need aem to actually get the most out of because if i revved to 9k it would still be using the timing set for 8k which pretty much means no power...could maybe hold it to 8400-8500

6) tranny...
have atx right now and i feel it will do better at high rpm's because of much quicker shifts. also the long power band from this build should make up for the longer gearing on the atx...but should i get an lsd? is quaife worth a grand. or should i get an obx and rebuild it? end clutch? translab shift kit?(i already have a cooler). im leaning toward obx lsd...keep in mind that since this is an n/a build, there is not the massive amount of torque there to break things like in a turbo build

7) extras
what about cooling. do i need a high cap radiator? better flowing water pump or oil pump? ive got vr4 injectors and vr4 pump. will i need more? i'll build my own exhaust at my buddies house. should i do single or double? i like high pitch exhaust note.
i would love to hear opinions or any info anyone has about any aspect of this
i feel like an 8k 12.5-1 properly tuned n/a can make 300whp, but at the same time i dont want to decide halfway through that i actually want a 9k build and have to go back to square one.

[Blown3000]

Just want to say thanks for the Advice I.B., motor is running very smoothly, start easily, pulls hard. The WMI has cured the lean situations at high boost and upper level RPMs. Sure can smell that Alcohol and engine likes it. I can see why you moved to a high volume fuel system because when I disarm the spray the NA injectors just can't feed the fuel even when the fuel pressure is over 100psi. Once I save up the money necessary for the upgrades I'll do as you suggested. One question would it be necessary to run a SAFC with the TT ECU, larger injectors and pump?

[ibsorgn]

Just want to say thanks for the Advice I.B., motor is running very smoothly, start easily, pulls hard. The WMI has cured the lean situations at high boost and upper level RPMs. Sure can smell that Alcohol and engine likes it. I can see why you moved to a high volume fuel system because when I disarm the spray the NA injectors just can't feed the fuel even when the fuel pressure is over 100psi. Once I save up the money necessary for the upgrades I'll do as you suggested. One question would it be necessary to run a SAFC with the TT ECU, larger injectors and pump?

I'm very happy to hear the news. Concerning the SAFC, I would say no. Although I use a APEXI Neo I make no corrections at high throttle as I find that the TT ECU, injectors, and fuel pump do a good job on their own. I make some adjustments at low throttle but only for fuel economy. Before I moved to the TT setup I was controlling fuel with a FMU and using a WMI to eliminate the lean conditions at higher rpms and boost however I wanted a more permanent solution so I falsely thought that a SAFC would do the trick. Please note that I was running a few more pounds of boost than you are. To make a very long story short when you make air flow corrections you effect timing as the ecu determines load based on air flow and rpms and load is a very important input in determining timing. If you correct too much, you will distort engine timing to the degree that you can effect performance, fuel economy and can cause engine damage. Once I determined the effects I knew that the real answer was a fuel system upgrade. Also by driving those injectors to and above their capacity failure was inevitable. If I were you and you want to go the TT ecu/fuel system route I would leave the SAFC out of the picture unless you found that you need to make MINOR corrections. Having a piggyback like an APEXI won't hurt anything and it does provide you with valuable information.

[Blown3000]

Thanks for your help, it was a big time saver not to mention easy on my wallet. When I start my fuel upgrades I'll be back to this forum.