AEM EMS Banter Thread

[mb3000]

Just a thread to compare tunes, etc...:dontknow2:

Anyways, I was wondering what everyone's knock gain is set at. I've kept mine at the .421, but always wondered if y'all messed with it.

[niterydr]

Knock scaling should be adjusted during a safe run. Typical knock values will rise with rpm (raw voltage here) and peak somewhere, every car is different. I recommend setting up the threshold on a known safe tuning value and then keeping it on. I've seen some cars under 1V (such as my current one on E-85) and some cars are a quite louder (my old stealth).

[mb3000]

I know that, I'm talking about the knock gain value-

"Knock gain is a knock signal filter. It is used to further desensitize a knock sensor. If this value gets too high, the knock sensor will not respond to knock events because the values will be filtered out."

Was wondering if the guys with built engines added a little bit to this value to compensate for the forged internals.

[MR2]

Has anyone attempted to run the Ethanol Sensor with this ECU Yet and get some sort of Linear adjustment that allows switching between normal gas and E85 for example without having to fiddle or do anything?

[niterydr]

Has anyone attempted to run the Ethanol Sensor with this ECU Yet and get some sort of Linear adjustment that allows switching between normal gas and E85 for example without having to fiddle or do anything?

Ethanol sensor + controller + user defined fuel trim map = done. Of course you don't have the timing control unless you build a logic box of some sort to pull timing via nitrous maps at a certain ethanol percentage.... It is a WIP for me, we'll see if I complete the setup enough to want to make the car "flex fuel" this summer or push it to next year.

[MR2]

yeahhh well it's Timing + limiting maximum boost, but I assume all of that is fairly easy?

[mb3000]

Anyone ever had problems with hot starts. Not the starting of the engine, not the initial crank pulse, start extra, start extra decay or any of that.

My issue is that the car will start fine, once the start extra wears off the afr's shoot way lean (17:1 and leaner), idle will start pulsing, & the car wants to die. The issue only goes away after driving the car for a couple of minutes. Coolant temps stay the same, however the car will now idle at the proper afr.

[niterydr]

Check your fuel trims based on coolant temperature as well as the base settings. Do you have 02 feedback on? What is that trying to do?

[mb3000]

I cut the FB off after it went wacko one day. My warm up enrichment cuts out at 80C, my car runs around 82-85C normally.

To be honest, I think its some type of vac related problem, as the engine idles in different cells when it's started hot. I temporarily added some fuel to the cells, but I'm still looking for what would cause this.

[mb3000]

Made myself an EMS version of the stock timing map using Greg's posted high octane timing map.

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad128/mb3000gt_photos/IMG_1458_zps1d754082.jpg
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad128/mb3000gt_photos/stockecutiminginterpolation_zpsabade145.jpg

[TurboSinceBirth]

I almost did that years ago with the stock timing/fuel maps we had available off Stealth316 or maybe it was somewhere else. I modeled my fuel map target AFRs off of it for my EMU even though at the time I didn't know exactly what the load values meant which made it a little difficult.

[jspecmike]

Made myself an EMS version of the stock timing map using Greg's posted high octane timing map.

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad128/mb3000gt_photos/IMG_1458_zps1d754082.jpg
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad128/mb3000gt_photos/stockecutiminginterpolation_zpsabade145.jpg

This will come in handy once i get my car back together :-)

[2fnloud]

Agreed. How did your car like this new table?

[mb3000]

Agreed. How did your car like this new table?

Can't tell you, my EMS has been sitting on the shelf for about 5 months now. I should be able to have some results of my own by the summer.

Won't be too much of a comparison though. My old map was custom made (crazy amounts of timing for pump gas) as well as on a different car/engine. I figured this would give me a better place to start vs. the horrid map that come with the 3000gt base .cal.

[DG]

I now have enough information to directly translate the OEM load calculation to the AEM load calculation and back again.

On my list of things to do is to translate the OEM fuel and timing maps into AEM speak.

My AEM car recently passed Ontario emissions and started first key in -17C weather so I'm already making good progress.

DG

[2fnloud]

Look forward to seeing your results

[vr4tune]

I now have enough information to directly translate the OEM load calculation to the AEM load calculation and back again.

On my list of things to do is to translate the OEM fuel and timing maps into AEM speak.

My AEM car recently passed Ontario emissions and started first key in -17C weather so I'm already making good progress.

DG

Please share when ready!

[J. Fast]

Made myself an EMS version of the stock timing map using Greg's posted high octane timing map.

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad128/mb3000gt_photos/IMG_1458_zps1d754082.jpg
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad128/mb3000gt_photos/stockecutiminginterpolation_zpsabade145.jpg

I've done that before. I bet it took some time! Good Job bud!

[Ninja Performance]

Most people would cringe and run away if they saw my timing tables. I run E95M5, 95% ethanol 5% methanol.
I run 30 degrees at 20psi at 8800rpm

-Chris

[TurboSinceBirth]

Most people would cringe and run away if they saw my timing tables. I run E95M5, 95% ethanol 5% methanol.
I run 30 degrees at 20psi at 8800rpm

-Chris

Wow that is quite a bit. Just goes to show you should tune it on the dyno to look at when torque starts falling when you pass MBT. Going straight to 30 degrees of timing would blow most E85 setups. I wonder how much the 5% methanol has to do with it.

[J. Fast]

Wow that is quite a bit. Just goes to show you should tune it on the dyno to look at when torque starts falling when you pass MBT. Going straight to 30 degrees of timing would blow most E85 setups. I wonder how much the 5% methanol has to do with it.

There's lots of bullshit on the net about optimal spark ignition timing. Stealth316 has the most optimium timing maps I've ever used. Some truly highly regarded people discount those. They say they're incorrect and a recipe for a blown engine. Yet, a decade later and Jeff refuses to take them down. Why is that you think? I've spent hours and hours and hours on a dyno, trying this and that and found those numbers make power and they are real. The guys that dispute them... sadly they've all experienced catastophic failures, spun bearings, fucked engines, blown turbos, and bla and blah. I use them, and never once have I ever... And I'm an idiot... Lol, I run mid twenty's and 26 at the top... That's where my engine likes it.

I ran 19 interpolate to 21 at the top on pump gas at 21 psi on TD-04's and no knock so...? That stock map is really conservative.

[Ninja Performance]

I run 22 degrees at 36psi at 9000RPM.

And yes, all my tuning was on a dyno. I kept pushing AFR and timing until my returns started to drop then eeeked it back a bit.

-Chris

[familyMAN]

^but what do you run at peak torque?

[Ninja Performance]

My TQ peak is at 5750 give or take, here is the closest RPM line to that.

RPM---Load--Timing
5600--35.12--21.70
5600--31.99--23.80
5600--28.87--24.84
5600--25.74--26.60
5600--22.62--27.30
5600--19.49--28.00
5600--16.36--30.20
5600--13.24--31.20
5600--10.31--34.00
5600--7.18--34.70
5600--4.06--35.70
5600--0.93--37.10
5600---2.19--37.80
5600---5.32--39.60
5600---8.44--41.40
5600---11.57--41.71
5600---14.69--41.71

-Chris

[TurboSinceBirth]

There's lots of bullshit on the net about optimal spark ignition timing. Stealth316 has the most optimium timing maps I've ever used. Some truly highly regarded people discount those. They say they're incorrect and a recipe for a blown engine. Yet, a decade later and Jeff refuses to take them down. Why is that you think? I've spent hours and hours and hours on a dyno, trying this and that and found those numbers make power and they are real. The guys that dispute them... sadly they've all experienced catastophic failures, spun bearings, fucked engines, blown turbos, and bla and blah. I use them, and never once have I ever... And I'm an idiot... Lol, I run mid twenty's and 26 at the top... That's where my engine likes it.

I ran 19 interpolate to 21 at the top on pump gas at 21 psi on TD-04's and no knock so...? That stock map is really conservative.

Those are stock maps so of course they're optimal and a good base to go off of although conservative. We never had an "idea" of what Jeff meant numerically by high and low engine load. Until Greg and Jeff were able to decode the stock ecu timing maps we had to guess at how much each load cell was from top to bottom. That's where it got people into trouble since they couldn't read it accurately and assumed since X ran Y timing on the dyno with a similar setup or power it must be good for me too.

The stock map is really conservative. A look at even the fuel map with 9 AFRs shows you what Mitsubishi had in mind when making the stock timing/fuel maps. It's an OEM application that should stand the test of time. It's also a good starting point too. I've seen plenty of people run 20 degrees peak on TD04/TD05/T3 pump gas turbo setups 17-20 psi. Chris even tuned some through 3SX that way. I would not go as far to say 25-26 degrees on pump is a good idea but on ethanol with a dyno to use to tune it could work with a less restrictive turbine setup. Maybe it's because of the thinner air you have in CO or you have figured out a slick setup. Why it goes against the foremost 3S tuners say is absurd so it's still hard to believe they are the de facto numbers. Your pump gas dyno numbers done at a sea level dyno would be a good idea to see if the timing numbers you run is really making more power than a similar turbo setup or you're just getting away with it. I guess I should have asked if 26 degrees was on E85 or pump. I doubt the latter being an everyday thing or else the big shops would have made that well known by now.

[J. Fast]

My TQ peak is at 5750 give or take, here is the closest RPM line to that.

RPM---Load--Timing
5600--35.12--21.70
5600--31.99--23.80
5600--28.87--24.84
5600--25.74--26.60
5600--22.62--27.30
5600--19.49--28.00
5600--16.36--30.20
5600--13.24--31.20
5600--10.31--34.00
5600--7.18--34.70
5600--4.06--35.70
5600--0.93--37.10
5600---2.19--37.80
5600---5.32--39.60
5600---8.44--41.40
5600---11.57--41.71
5600---14.69--41.71

-Chris
Dayum! That flame front must be really really cold! It definitely must take a looong time to develop if your smoothing peak torque from there. On that same line I'm running 13.7 and interpolated to 39 at the bottom. What do your horizonal axis look like at 20 and 32Psig?

[Ninja Performance]

Dayum! That flame front must be really really cold! It definitely must take a looong time to develop if your smoothing peak torque from there. On that same line I'm running 13.7 and interpolated to 39 at the bottom. What do your horizonal axis look like at 20 and 32Psig?

You mean the flame front must be cold in relation to the exhaust/turbo because the initial ignition event is so early?

My car is a little special, as this tune was done on 95% ethanol and 5% methanol. I tuned it all on a dyno and in all areas of the timing/fuel maps I tuned ti for weeks watching changes, taking notes, and moving numbers incrementally until incremental changes started to back off, then backed the numbers down a tad.

Could be I am not the master of AEM tuning, I will admit that. Could be my maps could use some help. I have never been above asking or taking advice/help. It's how we learn.

My car was pretty AFR sensitive on power also. 12.0 and lower or 12.2 and higher lost power. loves 12.1.

I will make an image of my ignition map and post it, give me a few minutes. I have an older map, the newer ones are on a laptop in the garage and of course on the AEM in my car. So it won't be "current" but I think I have the one I made 811AWHP on.

-Chris

[Ninja Performance]

Here is a good read in the meantime

Theoretical investigation of flame propagation process in an SI engine running on gasoline (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13359803/Theoretical-investigation-of-flame-propagation-process-in-an-SI-engine-running-on-gasolineethanol-blends)

And more:
http://papers.sae.org/2009-32-0113/
This research presents an experimental study of the combustion of ethanol blends with gasoline in a constant volume combustion chamber. The test fuels are gasoline, E20 (ethanol20%), E85 (ethanol85%) and pure ethanol. The pressure in combustion chamber was measured. The images of flame propagation were recorded by schlieren technique with high speed video camera. The effects of equivalent ratio, temperature, pressure on the combustion characteristics were studied. The results show the greater percent of ethanol provides faster burn rate of combustion and higher peak of cylinder pressure. The peak combustion pressure E100 is 0.873 MPa which is higher than E85, E20 and E0. The ignition delay time decreases with higher percent of ethanol. As the results of flame propagation images, at stoichometric burn duration of pure ethanol is 13 ms which is shorter than E85, E20 and E0. The combustion duration of mixture at equivalence ratio of 1.0 is less than that of equivalent ratio 0.8, 1.2 and 1.4. The flame speed and peak pressure increase with percentage of ethanol. The faster flame speed of ethanol flame effects to shorter combustion duration and greater performance and efficiency.

So you would think, since more ethanol content means faster propagation more timing wouldn't be needed. But as I stated, I kept increasing timing and power kept rising. It ended up where it is, I thought it was high, I would do small section timing pull back or entire map 1 or 2 degree and it would lose power. So it is where it wants to be. Just scary high. But it's happy and bearings always look new when I look at them.

-Chris

[Ninja Performance]

This is the dyno from the following timing graph:

http://www.ninjaperformance.com/VR4/811AWHP_2bolt_stockheads_cams.jpg

4894

-Chris

[familyMAN]

That's great info Chris. Thanks for sharing. Your car's timing is very high all over compared to mine. You have at least 10* more than me at idle even. Wonder what the difference is...granted mine is not tuned as well as yours:) But when I pulled timing at idle it idled better/smoother.

[J. Fast]

So you would think, since more ethanol content means faster propagation more timing wouldn't be needed. But as I stated, I kept increasing timing and power kept rising. It ended up where it is, I thought it was high, I would do small section timing pull back or entire map 1 or 2 degree and it would lose power. So it is where it wants to be. Just scary high. But it's happy and bearings always look new when I look at them.

-Chris

Looking at your base timing map... WOW! Chris, man, that's amazing! You've got something special there!

Obviously your results show you have to light it of really early and give it adequate time to burn completely. It's quite apparent you're high Ethanol content combined with the Meth takes a long time to fully combust.

It is what it is... can't argue with the results! Amazing!

[Ninja Performance]

Like i said, it looks scary. I don't even like it. On more than one occasion I have lowered the timing both on the dyno and on the drag strip. Every time it would lose power/gain ET/lose MPH. Just as it would when I initially tuned it.

As scary as it looks, it is what it likes. And I have torn it down after beating it like a red headed stepchild on the street and track and he piston skirts and bearings all look new.

-Chris

[Ninja Performance]

Maybe it's the volume of fuel, since I run E95M5 it needs roughly 45% more fuel volume then pump or race gas. And at 36psi I am in the 95% IDC range on 160lb injectors. Maybe there is just so much fuel in there it needs the extra time to get a complete combustion/propagation.

Ideas?

-Chris

[fastfalcon94]

I'm very new to AEM. I find it pretty confusing but I'm slowly learning. For those of you who are using AEM, did you remove your stock o2 sensors? I have a solo AEM wideband sensor in my downpipe. I have it wired into 02#1 and all 6 injectors set to it. So I'm assuming it would be perfectly OK to remove the stock widebands and plug the holes?

[mb3000]

I'm very new to AEM. I find it pretty confusing but I'm slowly learning. For those of you who are using AEM, did you remove your stock o2 sensors? I have a solo AEM wideband sensor in my downpipe. I have it wired into 02#1 and all 6 injectors set to it. So I'm assuming it would be perfectly OK to remove the stock widebands and plug the holes?

^ Yes, they aren't used with the AEM. Auto Parts stores usually have an oil pan bolt that fits, M18x1.5 sounds about right.

[DG]

I wouldn't be so quick to ditch the OEM sensor in the rear bank. As long as you realize the limitations, they can still provide useful info.

With a wideband in the front bank and a narrowband in the rear bank, you can assign all 6 injectors to the wideband and run full-range O2 feedback. In this configuration, the wideband is the only thing affecting feedback, but you can keep an eye on the narrowband as a sanity check - so long as you understand that it either reads "rich" or "lean" (don't try and play games by looking at voltages) and that it is going to read lean-ish at WOT.

The other option is to enable bank-specific feedback on both sensors, but limit the feedback band to just those cells where you want a 14.7:1 target. In effect, treat the wideband as a narrowband for feedback purposes, but still use it as a wideband for manual WOT tuning.

If you have to plug the hole anyway, why not use it as a sensor and get some use out of it?

DG

[fastfalcon94]

I know in the aem v2 instructions it had me wire in the wideband to o2#1. So I literally cut the wire before the ecu and tapped in the wire coming from the aem gauge. So if I was to use the aem wideband and both o2 sensors I'd need to find another input to use on the aem ecu. I'm fine using just 1 sensor. I just want to plug the other ones if I can so I can keep them as backups for other 3000gts I'll probably own.

Also the other thing that I'm a little concerned with is my wideband reading. When I installed aem I put in the IAT sensor, the map sensor, did the TPS wizard, set base timing etc.. I also wired up the aem wideband. When Ray tuned my car he used his own sensor in the end of my exhaust. Well I changed my exhaust around (replaced high flow cat with resonator) and I wanted to do some more pulls. I noticed the wideband reading in my logs was different than my wideband gauge. Reading into it more, it turns out I have the wrong wideband sensor selected in aem. There is also an o2#1 cal table I could use to make it match if it's not exact. So I'm worried if I correct the wideband it will mess with my tune. Ray didn't think it would. He said the same voltage would be going to the ecu, it would just be how the ecu displays it that would be different. Thoughts on this?

[J. Fast]

I noticed the wideband reading in my logs was different than my wideband gauge. Reading into it more, it turns out I have the wrong wideband sensor selected in aem. There is also an o2#1 cal table I could use to make it match if it's not exact. So I'm worried if I correct the wideband it will mess with my tune. Ray didn't think it would. He said the same voltage would be going to the ecu, it would just be how the ecu displays it that would be different. Thoughts on this?

Depends if you have O2 feedback turned on or off? If it's "on" it will change if you recalibrate the sensor and run a new wizard. What are you seeing for base voltage when you run the wizard and unplug the wideband and it defaults to 14.7?

If you're just going to adjust the gain then it will be fine.

If that's Rays Cal I would ask him how he setup the tune.

[fastfalcon94]

I do have o2 feedback turned on, but under the o2 feedback wizard I do not have any wideband selected... So I think that would make it technically turned off. It is Ray's file but I am not sure what kind of sensor he used in the end of my exhaust. I'll see what my voltage is in a few weeks. I have my tranny out right now to do the billet endcase, and inner brace. I appreciate the help though. I posted all of this on 3si months ago and no one ever responded to me:/

[Ninja Performance]

Fast,
Post your cal and we can take a gander and see what is up.

-Chris

[fastfalcon94]

OK, hopefully these links will work for you. I'm using Google Drive to share them and it's my first time using it. As far as setup they should be the same. The Rays tune one is me downloading the cal when I got back from Rays. The AEM Serial Gauge one I made a few weeks later after I setup an AEM serial gauge (which is a huge pain to get working btw. All of the linking instructions at the time were for aem v1).

AEM serial gauge
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bzs3LK1aJwcoajByTUljNEVva0k/edit

Rays tune
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bzs3LK1aJwcoQ1M1M1hCSlA4ZDg/edit

I also forgot to list my mods. It's a 94 vr4. At 55k original miles I pulled a perfectly good motor to have it built. Has ray's pistons/rods/wrist pins. Port and polished heads. dr750 turbos w/ ported exhaust housings, custom fmic w/ 3" cold side piping and 2" to 3" Y hot side piping, aem v2, tial bov, boost leak tested up to 35psi, ngk bcp7es plugs per Ray, msd 8.5 plug wires, spark amplifier, 3" exhaust, meth. I only had a 450cc meth nozel and I had a high flow cat. Ray said that was going to kill my performance and I wasn't making the easy power he was use to with dr750s. So he gave me a conservative drivability tune. It still put down like 380hp and 420 torque. I've since went with a 800cc meth nozel and I redid my exhaust so I have an open resonator where my high flow cat was. Ironically it's more quiet with the resonator. I originall went with the high flow cat as my exhaust was too loud with no mufflers and no cats.

My high flow cat was plugged pretty good. The internals broke lose and started to wedge themselves out. I'm really hoping this was a big reason I didn't make easy hp.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/2012-07-27_17-39-49_133.jpg

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/2012-07-27_17-40-02_731.jpg

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/2012-07-13_11-14-36_171.jpg

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/2012-06-22_13-17-34_449.jpg

[Trevor]

Any of you guys switch from a v1 to a v2 notice an improvement in driveability?

[DG]

My last dyno run AEM log, annotated:

http://farnorthracing.com/stealth/images/13G_Dyno_Run_Annotated.jpg

Car made 306 HP and 318 torque, which isn't spectacular - but as you can see, it was out of MAF headroom and out of injector, so I wasn't really looking to push it. This was basically a pull to make sure it wasn't knocking after the new turbos, and to make sure the calibration was at least reasonable.

Since then, the car has a new downpipe, a plugged OEM cat has been replaced with a high-flow, 450s and a pump have gone into it, I've perfected feedback boost control, and I've rescaled the MAF so I can run more boost without hitting virtual MAF overrun. It is in good shape to put down much better numbers and refine the tune. And because I'm moving this summer to New Brunswick, where I can't get 94 octane (only 91) I have to confirm the tune on 91, so it'll go back to the dyno soon.

I'm also going to leave this here, as a warning about Dynojets and tailpipe sniffers...

http://farnorthracing.com/stealth/images/DynojetvsAEM.jpg

DG

[MR2]

Don't suppose you got a CFM/Pressure graph of the old and new Cats?

[Ninja Performance]

OK, hopefully these links will work for you. I'm using Google Drive to share them and it's my first time using it. As far as setup they should be the same. The Rays tune one is me downloading the cal when I got back from Rays. The AEM Serial Gauge one I made a few weeks later after I setup an AEM serial gauge (which is a huge pain to get working btw. All of the linking instructions at the time were for aem v1).

AEM serial gauge
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bzs3LK1aJwcoajByTUljNEVva0k/edit

Rays tune
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bzs3LK1aJwcoQ1M1M1hCSlA4ZDg/edit

I also forgot to list my mods. It's a 94 vr4. At 55k original miles I pulled a perfectly good motor to have it built. Has ray's pistons/rods/wrist pins. Port and polished heads. dr750 turbos w/ ported exhaust housings, custom fmic w/ 3" cold side piping and 2" to 3" Y hot side piping, aem v2, tial bov, boost leak tested up to 35psi, ngk bcp7es plugs per Ray, msd 8.5 plug wires, spark amplifier, 3" exhaust, meth. I only had a 450cc meth nozel and I had a high flow cat. Ray said that was going to kill my performance and I wasn't making the easy power he was use to with dr750s. So he gave me a conservative drivability tune. It still put down like 380hp and 420 torque. I've since went with a 800cc meth nozel and I redid my exhaust so I have an open resonator where my high flow cat was. Ironically it's more quiet with the resonator. I originall went with the high flow cat as my exhaust was too loud with no mufflers and no cats.

My high flow cat was plugged pretty good. The internals broke lose and started to wedge themselves out. I'm really hoping this was a big reason I didn't make easy hp.



You sure that is Ray's tune?
Not only is the timing map VERY high on the low end, but the knock cal table is zeroed out and knock control is turned off.

Doesn't seem like something Ray would do.

-Chris

[Ray Pampena]

yea thats a little strange.. i wish i could remember why. it definitly looks like something was going on there that i was trying to compensate for. those rich spots in the fuel map are weird too. some cars just wont run right.. and when they do, the map has ramps in it. i tune too many to remember lol. the raw voltage may be really spiking above useful limits for whatever reason.. which is the only cases that i dont use the knock control

[fastfalcon94]

Maybe Ray was adding more timing down low to try and get rid of my fluttering problem? I have this awful fluttering problem when at low boost. Here is my email chain to Matt from DR regarding it. His suggestion at the end was to try and advance the timing down low. The tunes I posted are from Ray, I haven't modified them at all aside from hooking my serial gauge up. I was kind of hopeful that I still had a possible thing to try to fix my fluttering, but maybe I don't:/ It sucks that I am so far away from everyone. Ray is the closest and that's still a 6+ hour one way trip for me.


Me:
----------
Hi Matt,

I've been following this thread http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/bov-fmic...1/index13.html and saw that a lot of people have asked you for advice to get rid of the surging. It seems like my car has it worse than anyone elses. I have a catless exhaust, 3.0L motor w/ Rays Rods/Pistons, stock heads/cams/camgears, DR-750 turbos w/ billet wastegates, blitz dsbc, tial bov w/ yellow spring (-21in/hg to -23in/hg at idle), 3" cold side intercooler piping and 3" to 2" hot side piping, and ips td04 intake pipes w/ aem dry flow filters. I'm running speed density as well so the car physically drives fine, just the bov sounds more like an owl at high boost and I get that fluttering around 1-3psi in every gear but first and reverse. I had the same bov and intercooler setup (minus aluminum hot side piping) before the dr750 turbos and aem w/ speed density.

I bought a mityvac 8500 boost pump and made sure my wastegates opened at the same time. I have a nipple in my intercooler piping pre throttlebody that feeds the blitz dsbc. The blitz then goes to a T, and through equal length vacuum hoses to each wastegate. I boost leak tested up to 30psi. I'm only running about 20psi now on a Ray tune.

I saw in the thread people tried changing the Y setup pre intercooler, or adding a divider plate. 2 people tried that and it didn't really help them. People also said the balance tubes had little effect. I tried the "supercharger" spring for my bov. While that definitely helps (makes pressure surging go away in 2nd, kind of evident in 3rd, definitely in 4th-6th) it is still there. Plus when the bov vents it sounds like a silienced gun, and it remains open all the time at idle thanks to my vacuum.

I saw you mentioned adjustable cam gears and setting them the opposite of what most people do. It's a good theory, but I'm waiting for someone else to test it. Is there anything else I could try? I have 2 video's below. The first shows you the fluttering. I do a light pull in 3rd then slow down. I then accelerate as if I was daily driving through 2nd, 3rd, 4th and into 5th. The fluttering is present in every gear.

The next video shows my car in the parking lot. I show where my vacuum lines route then I rev it. You can hear the owl sound I hear through the air filters. Maybe the ips tubes w/ filters are restricting air flow for these bigger opening turbo's IDK. I appreciate any help you can give me. I haven't been driving the car much on this new setup just because this issue just irritates me the whole time.

Thanks - Charlie (802-309-9978)

video 1:
http://s1192.beta.photobucket.com/user/fastfalcon94/media/videos/2012-08-19_08-17-45_968.mp4.html

video 2:
http://s1192.beta.photobucket.com/user/fastfalcon94/media/videos/2012-08-15_08-37-10_947.mp4.html



From Matt:
------------
Ya yours seems to be really bad, what FMIC are you running? Some of the FMIC's seem to make it much worse then others. Do you have a picture of how the pipes on yours Y together?




Me:
-----------
I have had the front mount intercooler for about 5 years now. I can't even remember what the brand is. It's got a slightly wider core because I wanted it to fill up the entire 99 bumper opening. It fits perfect, didn't have to modify the bumper at all. The piping is all custom. I bought pre-bent sections and my roomate Tig welded it. The cold side piping I've used for 4 years w/ stock 9b turbos and the ips intake pipes. The hot side piping was just a 3" L that went into an aluminum 3000gt Y pipe (bov opening welded shut), and then a series of stock piping thrown together. I ran this setup for over a year with IPS 19T turbos as well. Never even had the hint of pressure surge and the Tial bov sounded amazing when it opened up. When I went to dr750s I switched out aem, and the hotside piping. I routed the hotside piping the same was as I had the stock piping. The Y part is a little different.

Thanks - Charlie


engine bay piping

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/2012-06-22_13-17-34_449.jpg

Intercooler

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/2012-06-15_01-45-23_591.jpg

Piping after polishing. You can see the Y. This comes up near where the stock AC Drier is.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/2012-05-15_23-23-49_638.jpg



Matt:
---------------
hmmm, I'll do some more thinking. Have you tried playing with the tune around that point in the MAP? more or less timing?



Me:
----------------
I haven't played around with the tune any. Ray did it a while back. I had a highflow cat at the time. He said it was restricting my exhaust too much to make really big power so he gave me a quick/safe dd tune at 20psi. I've since removed the high flow cat and replaced it with a vibrant resonator. You really think timing it could make the difference? Would you say advancing or retarding is more likely to get rid of it?



Matt:
---------------
Well this is just a guess, but retarding timing builds more exhaust heat this could be making the turbos spool super fast at light throttle making the problem worse.

Yours does seem to be worse by watching that vid then most, but most TD-04 card run piggy backs and piggy backs with large injectors run LOTS of timing in the lo load. Most of the time when tuners tune a stand alone the timing is much less aggressive then what you get with a stock ECU and a piggy back.

[Ray Pampena]

Oh yea I remeber that car now. Give me a call at the shop when u can 631-676-2448

[Boostaddict]

Any of you guys switch from a v1 to a v2 notice an improvement in driveability?

I noticed the opposite so I sold the v2 and am keeping the v1 as a backup plan in case the flash ecu setup doesn't work out (weather isn't condusive to tune it right now). Might just have been my car, but with the help of interwebs, local tuner, etc we couldn't get some funky low rpm issues worked out with the v2 and the v1 boxed worked perfect.

[J. Fast]

I noticed the opposite so I sold the v2 and am keeping the v1 as a backup plan in case the flash ecu setup doesn't work out (weather isn't condusive to tune it right now). Might just have been my car, but with the help of interwebs, local tuner, etc we couldn't get some funky low rpm issues worked out with the v2 and the v1 boxed worked perfect.
Were you still running wasted spark on your AEM Version 2 with an ignition amp? What was your ignition setup? Were you driving straight off the V2 box or using the OEM driver?

[Boostaddict]

Were you still running wasted spark on your AEM Version 2 with an ignition amp? What was your ignition setup? Were you driving straight off the V2 box or using the OEM driver?

Stock ignition with HKS amplifier. Granted I know my particular v2 experience wasn't typical but even with input from a few experts like Ray, Chris, Josh, etc I could never get it figured out so said the hell with it. See thread...

http://www.3sgto.org/f104/s2-ems-load-transition-breakup-problem-7126.html

[J. Fast]

Stock ignition with HKS amplifier. Granted I know my particular v2 experience wasn't typical but even with input from a few experts like Ray, Chris, Josh, etc I could never get it figured out so said the hell with it. See thread...

http://www.3sgto.org/f104/s2-ems-load-transition-breakup-problem-7126.html

Hey man, that box your swapping in is setup for peak and hold injectors. You have to bypass the resistors like Reuben mentioned. Your overfueling at tip in and idle transitions because your latency scaling is setup for V1 saturated and your V2 is P&H.

Also, you don't need the DLI anymore either, V2 is direct fire. Those two features make drivability significantly better on V2 as compared with V1.

For best results scope both the ignition and the injectors to scale the dwell/batt offsets.

[2fnloud]

Hey man, that box your swapping in is setup for peak and hold injectors. You have to bypass the resistors like Reuben mentioned. Your overfueling at tip in and idle transitions because your latency scaling is setup for V1 saturated and your V2 is P&H.

Also, you don't need the DLI anymore either, V2 is direct fire. Those two features make drivability significantly better on V2 as compared with V1.

For best results scope both the ignition and the injectors to scale the dwell/batt offsets.

J what about an AEM twin fire...4 channel? was actually told by an AEM tech on their forum that wasted spark with a series 2 was the way to go.l

[DG]

Those two features make drivability significantly better on V2 as compared with V1.

It's not like drivability sucks on a V1 box... mine is better than the stock ECU.

DG

[fastfalcon94]

My car is running again so I started messing with AEM some more. My car was down for a few months waiting for my billet endcase install. So I unplugged my wideband sensor on the back of the gauge so it read 14.6. I selected the correct AEM 30-4100 wideband sensor from the wizard. Then I opened the o2 #1 cal table and it was a lot closer with the right wideband selected. I only had to tweak the entire table slightly. So now aem matches what my wideband sees:)

Driving the car around easily today I am running a little rich at low rpm/low load (like 12.7-13.5 afr from -2 to -10 load up to 3k rpm) I got on it a little in 2nd/3rd pulling to 4k rpms at around 4 load and I was around 13.0 (too lean) So it appears that correcting the o2 sensor stuff has messed up my fuel table.

Also should I be using o2 feedback? Is that something you try to setup as you build your fuel table, or do you get the fuel table working well then enable the o2 feedback (and mimic your o2 target table after your fuel table?)

Thanks - Charlie

EDIT: Actually it looks like I already am using o2 feedback. I thought I wasn't using it because it was enabled, but under the wizard it didn't have an o2 sensor selected under feedback. It's logging o2 correction and target so I must be using it. Also I tried setting the sensor in the wizard (it went bold), then went back in and it was not bolt. Seems like it's a bug in AEM where it sets itself but doesn't show as bold going back into the menu. So my o2 target ranges from 14.0 to 11.8. Prior to Ray's tune it went from 14.0 to 11.8 so he definitely was setting o2 feedback. He probably allowed for leaner conditions because of my forged internals. So it's just a matter of tweaking my fuel table now.

[mb3000]

When I tuned my EMS for the first time I used the O2FB just to get started, then disabled it when I had finished my fuel table.

[fastfalcon94]

When I tuned my EMS for the first time I used the O2FB just to get started, then disabled it when I had finished my fuel table.

So you used it to help you build the table then. I setup my aemlogger last night. It's pretty slick that you can program different buttons to automatically apply a set of filters on any log. I researched some more on O2FB. It seems like a lot of people use it, but some people stay away from it. Their reasoning is that if the o2 sensor went, then the ecu could start making the car run really rich/lean. But that would depend on your mix/max percentage. If you had it set fairly low then it wouldn't be too far off or dangerous if the sensor went.

One forum was talking about "auto tuning" using the internal logger for building fuel tables. I'm going to read into that some more. But that's where I am at now. Just tweaking fuel/timing. All of the setup/calibration stuff is done. I'll enable knock feedback as well.

Also what does everyone have their deceleration settings set at? Mine is set to above 30 degrees, above 2500 rpms, max load of -11. I think my rpm's are too high because if I let off the gas in 5th/6th gear I'm below 2500rpms and my wideband is reading 13ish.

[mb3000]

Here's a FB chart, converted from the stock map, thanks to Greg (Monochrome).

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad128/mb3000gt_photos/aemconvertedo2fb_zps17171ea7.png

As for the decel IIRC I had mine set at 1600, but I lost the .cal so I can't verify.

[fastfalcon94]

That's awesome. Thanks! So I take it those RPM points at the top are from the stock map as well. I rescaled my tables the other night. Mine went all the way up to 10,600 rpms. I figured I should benefit from the entire table so I did 400 rpm increments up to 8400 rpms. What I like about that map is that it shows me the target o2 is 14.7 even up to 0.9 load for lower RPMs. My tables are around 12-13 there so I am going to lean them out a bit. I knew I was running a little rich just maintaining speed driving without getting into boost but I wasn't sure exactly where or how fast the transition should be.

[mb3000]

The RPM points above are the same ones that I run on my car. The smaller the map the better resolution you will have, I'm sure you will be able to notice the difference.

[fastfalcon94]

I just mocked up my o2 target table. I have dr750s so I think they start to spool a litle faster than stock turbos so I made it start going rich about 400 rpms earlier. I also went with 11.5 for my final a/f ratio. I may go leaner since I'm running meth and have forged internals. Ray had me at 11.8. I'll play with the tune more this weekend. I need to hook up my clutch wire too so I can get NLTS working. I need to read into my startup tables too because unless it's cold out I always have to hold the gas pedal down to get it to start.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/aemo2target_zps49f8a5bb.jpg

[mb3000]

For your starting issue; Initial Crank Pulse, Start Extra vs. Temp, Start Extra Decay, and your Warm Up Enrichment tables should be everything you need to get your engine starting like it should.

[J. Fast]

If your cold start is good sounds like you need to adjust your Start Extra vs. Temp.

[fastfalcon94]

Have either of you had trouble with AEM log and logging knock? For some reason it will not always give me the option to "overlay" the graph with knock. I just did a pretty good pull, but I can't find knock as something to view. If I right-click the graph, choose "overlays", knock is not in the list. But I have some other saved logs where it does show.

EDIT: Actually read into this some more. It sounds like aemlogger will only log the channels displayed on the screen. So if I'm on my tuning tab which has knock it logs it. If I had my o2 target table open (which doesn't have knock) then it wouldn't log it. Kind of cool and lame at the same time. I wish I could just tell it exactly what I wanted to log.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/knock_zps45e2ce44.jpg

I had to increase my fuel cut limiters too. My load fuel cut was set at 25 Load which I am just barely exceeding. I bumped it to 35.

Also I want to setup my knock feedback so it will pull timing and add fuel if I do knock. Do either of you have a .cal file that I could look at? My knock cal table has a straight line through it at 0.4V :/ I would think knock tables would be similiar between all vr4s (unlike fuel and timing).

[J. Fast]

This is a good start... :)
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/knocksettings_zpse87897c0.jpg

[Ninja Performance]

Have either of you had trouble with AEM log and logging knock? For some reason it will not always give me the option to "overlay" the graph with knock. I just did a pretty good pull, but I can't find knock as something to view. If I right-click the graph, choose "overlays", knock is not in the list. But I have some other saved logs where it does show.

EDIT: Actually read into this some more. It sounds like aemlogger will only log the channels displayed on the screen. So if I'm on my tuning tab which has knock it logs it. If I had my o2 target table open (which doesn't have knock) then it wouldn't log it. Kind of cool and lame at the same time. I wish I could just tell it exactly what I wanted to log.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/knock_zps45e2ce44.jpg

I had to increase my fuel cut limiters too. My load fuel cut was set at 25 Load which I am just barely exceeding. I bumped it to 35.

Also I want to setup my knock feedback so it will pull timing and add fuel if I do knock. Do either of you have a .cal file that I could look at? My knock cal table has a straight line through it at 0.4V :/ I would think knock tables would be similiar between all vr4s (unlike fuel and timing).

I have never heard that before.

You CAN tell it what to log, it is all setup in Setup/Internal Logging. Log Knock#1 (knock volts over the knock table) Knock Raw#1 and Knock Volts#1

Once setup it will log whatever params you tell it to. You don't have to have a tab open, or watching anything on a certain screen, hell, you don't even have to have the laptop in the car. the AEM will store the info until you hook up and download (or it writes over it eventually)

-Chris

-Chris

[Memphetic]

I have never heard that before.

You CAN tell it what to log, it is all setup in Setup/Internal Logging. Log Knock#1 (knock volts over the knock table) Knock Raw#1 and Knock Volts#1

Once setup it will log whatever params you tell it to. You don't have to have a tab open, or watching anything on a certain screen, hell, you don't even have to have the laptop in the car. the AEM will store the info until you hook up and download (or it writes over it eventually)

-Chris

-Chris

In addition, you can set from there how often it datalogs. The AEM has limited memory, so obviously, higher frequency logging will allow for less log runtime. The log will overwrite itself in a rolling fashion.

[fastfalcon94]

Thanks! I've been doing all these pulls and haven't knocked at all. It kind of makes me think something is up with my knock sensor. I added Knock 1 volts to my channel so next time I'll see if the voltage actually gets louder. One of my cruising logs has knock 1 volts on it just because I was on a different tab. It does fluctuate around 0.09V so maybe that is a good sign.

[Ninja Performance]

at redline knock volts #1 should be somewhere around 1.8-2.0 volts

-Chris

[Memphetic]

Ehhhh... I'd check it. 0.09V is nothing. The knock sensor is essentially a piezoelectric microphone. It should fluctuate much more than that, you should be getting at least 1V at ~6k RPM.

[J. Fast]

Once setup it will log whatever params you tell it to. You don't have to have a tab open, or watching anything on a certain screen, hell, you don't even have to have the laptop in the car. the AEM will store the info until you hook up and download (or it writes over it eventually)

-Chris

-Chris

^^This!


The log will overwrite itself in a rolling fashion.

Yep, AEM automatically stores the last 10 mins and respools wether you're logging or not.


Thanks! I've been doing all these pulls and haven't knocked at all. It kind of makes me think something is up with my knock sensor. I added Knock 1 volts to my channel so next time I'll see if the voltage actually gets louder. One of my cruising logs has knock 1 volts on it just because I was on a different tab. It does fluctuate around 0.09V so maybe that is a good sign.

Just make sure when you setup Knock control you cut timing immediately and set a ridiculious recovery rate. If you knock and you're just using fuel it's too late. That's why I have my parameters setup for fuel cut damn near 100% if I knock I pull like 10 degrees and fuel kill the engine.

[fastfalcon94]

What I am saying is that... Because of the window issue, the window I had open doing all my pulls did not have "Knock 1 Volts" added to the channel so the AEM Log graph doesn't have it. In some cases it does have "Knock 1", but that is 0 everywhere. I only found 1 datalog file where I could "Overlay" Knock 1 volts. I must have been on a different window in AEM when I opened logger. But in that datalog file it was just a 12 second test clip where I never saw above 1100 rpm. I will build my knock table tonight similiar to the one J. Fast posted. I'll leave knock feedback off. Then I'll do a few more pulls tomorrow and log knock 1 volts to see they read.

So just to make sure I'm understanding this. If at 7000 RPMS my normal noise was 1.8V, and I had my knock table setup for that... If I was doing a pull and got something like 2.5V then my "Knock 1" value would be 0.7V? (2.5-1.8). And based on the AEM descriptions it only does stuff for every 1 whole volt of knock. So I would need at least 1 volt of knock over my knock cal table for timing/fuel adjustments to take affect?

Knock 1 - (Unit=Volts) Displays the magnitude of detonation which is equal to Knock 1 Volts - Knock Noise Table
Knock 1 Volts - (Unit=Volts) Displays the current raw voltage input from the Knock 1 sensor
Knock %Rich/VOlt - (Unit=%/V) This is the amount of fuel (enrichment) take add per volt of knock sensor feedback.


Edit: Thinking about this more. If that is the correct behavior then maybe that explains my "Knock 1" value being 0? If I'm not using knock feedback then how would the ecu really know what knock is? Right now my knock cal table is a horizontal line at 0.4V. If it still uses this table with knock feedback turned off, then maybe "Knock 1" never shows anything because I haven't hit 1.4 volts? Sorry for al the questions, but this thread is definitely helping me:)

[fastfalcon94]

I did 2 pulls today. One on my way to the gym, one on the way home. This is my 2nd pull where I went through 2nd and part way through 3rd. The most knock volts I saw was 1.275V at 6600 rpms. In my first run I saw 1.8V at 6900rpms in 2nd. So if I make the graph gradually go up to 1.8V at 7k rpms, then it means I won't register knock 1 until I'm 1 volt over wherever I am on the graph right? So at 7k rpms if I registered 2.7 volts I wouldn't have any compensation and my knock 1 would be 0. If I registered 2.8 volts then I would have compensation and my knock 1 would be 1.

I have a feeling I may need bigger injectors too. I'm running 680cc injectors right now. This is around 22-23 psi

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/knockvolts_zps230366f1.jpg

[Ninja Performance]

You should make 10 runs or so on lowest boost and good gas to get a better idea of what is the mechanical noise of your engine.

Then make your knock cal table 10% higher than that if you want conservative, 20% for a little less conservative.
1.0 volts would then be 1.1volts.
Make the knock table.
Then any noise above that will be considered noise to the AEM and will be handled via the options you chose, fuel and timing. Do not get too aggressive with the fuel dump and timing pulls. A little will do.

-Chris

[Ninja Performance]

And you should NOT be doing knock cal logging runs at 22psi. That will tell you nothing of the natural mechinal engine noise and you will have a bad cal table as a result.

-Chris

[J. Fast]

I did 2 pulls today... The most knock volts I saw was 1.275V at 6600 rpms. In my first run I saw 1.8V at 6900rpms in 2nd. So if I make the graph gradually go up to 1.8V at 7k rpms, then it means I won't register knock 1 until I'm 1 volt over wherever I am on the graph right? So at 7k rpms if I registered 2.7 volts I wouldn't have any compensation and my knock 1 would be 0. If I registered 2.8 volts then I would have compensation and my knock 1 would be 1.


Yep, you got it.

If you refer back to the knock table I embedded... for every knock volt over the table I advance timing 1.05 degrees up to a max of 9 degrees.

To answer your question, all noise above the knock table line is assumed knock. However, you can lock the parameter threshold by inserting an activation limit. In my case 2.73 volts is the activation trigger. When I reach that threshold my safety parameters activate.

[fastfalcon94]

Yep, you got it.

If you refer back to the knock table I embedded... for every knock volt over the table I advance timing 1.05 degrees up to a max of 9 degrees.

To answer your question, all noise above the knock table line is assumed knock. However, you can lock the parameter threshold by inserting an activation limit. In my case 2.73 volts is the activation trigger. When I reach that threshold my safety parameters activate.

I'm a little confused by the "activation" trigger. In aem v2 I don't have this. Does the activation trigger mean that anytime knock exceeds 2.73volts it goes into affect? Does that bypass the whole knock graph? Or does it mean anytime knock is 2.73Volts above a point on the graph? If so couldn't you juse leave it at 1volt and move the entire graph up 1.73 volts? In aem v2 I do have some extra knock scale value in the Advanced Knock Option window. It is set to 0.43 right now. I need to figure out what to do with this value. I don't see why I would need to scale anything, then again I don't know how it even got set in the first place.

Thanks Chris for the 10 pull advice. I will see about turning my boost down or just bypassing my boost controller. I have a 15 lb (blue) spring in my billet wastegates right now.

- Charlie

[Memphetic]

What do you guys use as a base AFR map when first tuning a car? I more or less have my low load set to 14.7 with transition to ~12 in the -3 to 2 PSI range, then 10.5 above that to be safe.

I'm about to automap my car and want to make sure my targets are decent, but not *TOO* conservative :-P I was going to copy the stock AFR map from CJByron's website http://cjbyron.com/3000gt/fuelmap-95spydervr4.gif but I wasn't exactly sure as to what point on the load scale is even in boost (I assume about half way?)

[fastfalcon94]

Post 61 of this thread has a screenshot of the stock a/f map. That is what I used more or less. My rpm points are every 400 though.

[Memphetic]

Post 61 of this thread has a screenshot of the stock a/f map. That is what I used more or less. My rpm points are every 400 though.

Woo buddy, too lean for me :-P I used it as a reference, but I dropped the AFR by about 1 in each region. I've spent way too much time on this car :-P

[J. Fast]

What do you guys use as a base AFR map when first tuning a car? I more or less have my low load set to 14.7 with transition to ~12 in the -3 to 2 PSI range, then 10.5 above that to be safe.

I'm about to automap my car and want to make sure my targets are decent, but not *TOO* conservative :-P I was going to copy the stock AFR map from CJByron's website http://cjbyron.com/3000gt/fuelmap-95spydervr4.gif but I wasn't exactly sure as to what point on the load scale is even iboost (I assume about half way?)
You'll find most guys don't run O2 feedback. I tune with timing, coolant temps, AITs and knock. 11.5 is a long way from Lean best torque. LBT hangs around 13.5 on a dyno. There's lots of room in an 11.5 afr basemap .

[familyMAN]

You'll find most guys don't run O2 feedback. I tune with timing, coolant temps, AITs and knock. 11.5 is a long way from Lean best torque. LBT hangs around 13.5 on a dyno. There's lots of room in an 11.5 afr basemap .

So are we to deduce that you are advising that 13.5 is good for pump gas in boost, WOT?.......

[J. Fast]

That's not what I said. If coolant isn't purging and your AITs are under 90f... an 11.5afr at wot is fine. I said there was plenty of room with a WOT target afr set to 11.5.

[Memphetic]

I'm won't be running O2 feedback - I'm going to be using automap fuel log to create a base fuel map then tune from there.

[familyMAN]

Once fueling is dialed in, is o2 feedback a good idea for ethanol content variance? Also, is there a failsafe that can be set....something like if greater than +x% fuel needed and it will hit fuel or ignition cut?? (I'm looking for protection against a fuel pump dieing)

[Memphetic]

Let's talk about how the automap fuel formula confuses the shit out of me. The formula is given as:

Change = (Target Map value - Log Map value) * Error multiplier + Error additive

Typical values for Error Multiplier and Error Additive (which I also use, personally) are -7 and 0, respectively. Using these values, one area of my fuel map dropped 50 points raw - which leaned it out, a lot (i.e. to about 14:1) from a rich state of at most 10:1 (the lowest the gauge could read). The change makes no sense to me, nor does the formula. According to this formula, say AEMpro logged an AFR of 10:1. The change would then be (11.5-10)*(-7)+(0), or -10.5%.

However... my math is as follows when calculating percent change: (10 air)/(1 fuel)*(raw) = (11.5 air)/(1 fuel)*(raw)*(change)

the raw value (which effectively represents both the "raw" fuel table value and the number of atoms of air and fuel) drops out and we're left with: (10 air)/(1 fuel) = (11.5 air)/(1 fuel)*(change) --> [(10 air)/(1 fuel)]*[(1 fuel)/(11.5 air)] = change --> 10/11.5 = change = 0.86956.

You then multiply the raw value by 86.6956 percent to bring the air to fuel ratio from the logged value to the target AFR. In other words, you simply divide the current AFR by the target and multiply the raw by the resultant percentage. WHY does AEM not use this simple math?! In addition, you would also never be able to go off target no matter how many times you iterated. The percentage change would get smaller and smaller the closer you got to the target value. I suppose AEM's formula would also be unable to get away from the target - but it simply makes no sense to me, and, like I said, ended up leaning out a portion of my map *way* past the target AFR that I had set of 11.5:1

[fastfalcon94]

So I did some more pulls today to monitor knock volts. I have my boost controller bypassed so it runs on wastegate pressure. I was still seeing 17-18 psi because of the heavy springs I have. I've heard plenty of people say 1.8-2.0V at 7k rpm. I'm not really seeing that. It's more like 1.1V. On one of my 22psi runs last week I saw 1.8. Could I be seeing lower numbers because I am running meth? I still have knock feedback turned off, but I did mock up a graph based on the average of all the pulls. The few rows where I hae only a few values are 3rd gear pulls. Most of them were done in 2nd gear so I am not going 110+ mph and maxing out 3rd. Will that suffice or do you think I should hit the interstate and do a few pulls in 3rd?

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/knockgraph_zpsa21284d0.jpg

[J. Fast]

From wastegate I'd recommend taking your highest value in each column and adding in 30%. Knock table needs a bit more room as you're almost in it down low on 3rd gear pulls.

So far so good. Good job! Check the box and turn it on and confirm your failsafe.

[Memphetic]

So I did some more pulls today to monitor knock volts. I have my boost controller bypassed so it runs on wastegate pressure. I was still seeing 17-18 psi because of the heavy springs I have. I've heard plenty of people say 1.8-2.0V at 7k rpm. I'm not really seeing that. It's more like 1.1V. On one of my 22psi runs last week I saw 1.8. Could I be seeing lower numbers because I am running meth? I still have knock feedback turned off, but I did mock up a graph based on the average of all the pulls. The few rows where I hae only a few values are 3rd gear pulls. Most of them were done in 2nd gear so I am not going 110+ mph and maxing out 3rd. Will that suffice or do you think I should hit the interstate and do a few pulls in 3rd?

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/knockgraph_zpsa21284d0.jpg

Find a municipal airport - that's what I do, and as a cop I'm inclined to advise the smart choice :-P Our tiny ass airport has half a mile of perfectly paved runway.

[fastfalcon94]

I actually took my motorcycle course at a municipal airport. But I don't think they would appreciate me doing pulls there:) There is a local dyno in town, but the guy isn't very familiar with AEM. I can rent time there and probably will this year. But I want to get aem set up correctly and understand my way around it instead of trying to figure it all out on an expensive dyno rental.

So I looked at the max numbers and tweaked it by 30%. I'm still around 1.45 volts at 7k rpms. Maybe that's normal for me. In this thread (What's the correct method to setup knock control on AEM? - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f103/whats-correct-method-setup-knock-control-aem-529841/)) Chris mentioned around 1.8-2.0V is normal at 7k rpms and that solid motor mounts or forged pistons could make it louder. Well I have both of those, yet I'm lower. *shrug I'm running an oem knock sensor, torqued correctly, w/ 61k miles on it.

I tried to base my knock failsafes on J Fast's screenshot. But aem v2 has 3 new options and 1 thing was changed.

Knock Center Freq - I researched this on the aem forums. Apparently v1 had a hardware filter of 6.7khz. V2 has a software filter and is adjustable. But they leave it on 6.7khz as a default value to match what aem v1 had. So I guess if people used aem v1 just fine, then I'm all set here.

Knock Gain - I found some info on this in the Colorado 3s forum (Base Map (http://www.colorado3s.org/showthread.php?2314-Base-Map/page2)). "Knock gain is a knock signal filter. It is used to further desensitize a knock sensor. If this value gets too high, the knock sensor will not respond to knock events because the values will be filtered out." So I don't know what this value should be. The stock map I grabbed off of aem's website has this at 0.421. Does this seem right?

Knock Integrator - Again from the Colorado 3s forum. "Knock integrator is the “window” of time that engine noise is averaged. The engine noise and knock events will be averaged together in this window. " Mine is set to 300us. That's how it came. Hopefully that is OK?

Knock Restore Rate - In aem v1 this was measures in revs. J Fast had his set at 50 revs. In v2 mine defaulted to 73.8ms.

I'm going to see if I can find some other 3000gt v2 aem ems maps online and see what other people have for these values before I turn on knock feedback.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/knockgraph2_zps6f4087cf.jpg

[GTOJOE]

What sort of life span are people getting out of an O2 sensor? I bought an NGK AFX and the documentation states that once the tuning is completed to remove it as leaving the sensor in the exhaust flow while not powered up will drastically reduce the life of the sensor. They recommend if leaving it inplace that it be actually running. Which then means it will also die after a while? are are people doing about it?

[mb3000]

I don't know why you would turn the O2 sensor off?

[GTOJOE]

Talking about a wideband O2 If that makes any difference. I'm worried that after some time it will begin to lose accuracy and start giving incorrect results. Or is that a myth?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

[fastfalcon94]

I have my stock o2 sensors deleted and an aem wideband (bosch) sensor after the Y in my sensor. I have had the same sensor for about 4 years now and it still seems to work. I mean you know what your car should idle at once warmed up (14.7). So if you sensor starting acting up I would imagine you'd notice it because your idle wouldn't be reading right. All it does is output a 0-5v signal. Personally I wouldn't remove it or unhook it. It's an important safety gauge to have in yoru car. If the o2 sensor doesn't last long, get something different like an aem wideband.

I started messing with launch control and NLTS today. I read around on the evo forums. For launch control I set up my 2step to be 4200 rpms and activated under 10mph. I had some trouble setting up NLTS though. The documentation for aem's switches is wrong. Even though farnorthracing (Far North Racing - Stealth - Corrected Pinout for the AEM EMS (http://farnorthracing.com/stealth/ems_pinout.html)) says switch 4 was "verified" it did not work. Switch 3 did work. When logging though it shows as ON. When I push the clutch in it shows as OFF. I think the on/off needs to somehow be reversed, but idk. It was too late to be reving my engine in the driveway trying to test it.

Edit: I tested it today in the driveway and it seems to work:) I didn't notice but there is actually a 3step channel on the left being logged. When the clutch is pushed that channel becomes active. Also the 2step overrides the 3step so when launching it will use the correct rpm points. I have not driven the car yet but I will test out NLTS. Just from using it in the driveway though it sounds much better than my wotbox. It bounces off the 2nd rev limiter a lot faster than a wotbox does cutting just the ignition. Plus it doesn't build up fuel since it cuts both.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/aem/nlts_zpseec8b797.jpg

[Ninja Performance]

I am running over my 3.5 bar map sensor. Not going to spend the money on a new 5 bar and go thru the hassle of making all the map adjustments for it.

So, I changed the MAX voltage to 4.65volts, Max is supposed to be 4.5 so it now should not be able to max out.

Trouble was, trying to run more than 35.12psi, no matter what you do you can't make Fuel cut any higher than the MAP sensor max which is 35.12. So I run 36psi and hit my Fuel Cut Load cut off.

Now, even if I run 37psi, the sensor should max out at 4.5 volts, but the AEM thinks 35.12psi is 4.65 volts and therefore shouldn't hit max.

It did skew my fuel a tad, runs a little leaner cause now the AEM thinks I am running less boost than it is, but only a smidgen.

-Chris

[GTOJOE]

I have my stock o2 sensors deleted and an aem wideband (bosch) sensor after the Y in my sensor. I have had the same sensor for about 4 years now and it still seems to work. I mean you know what your car should idle at once warmed up (14.7). So if you sensor starting acting up I would imagine you'd notice it because your idle wouldn't be reading right. All it does is output a 0-5v signal. Personally I wouldn't remove it or unhook it. It's an important safety gauge to have in yoru car. If the o2 sensor doesn't last long, get something different like an aem wideband.

Good to know. I assume that when they fail or start failing they will just start to slowly loose accuracy. But if yours has been stable for 4 years then I think that's a more than acceptable life span considering a new sensor is under $100.

[Memphetic]

Has anyone ever ran into the issue where Quick Trim in AEMTuner sets the cell to zero, regardless of anything?

EDIT: If you are having this problem, it is because you chose the AEMPro style percentage change (i.e. entering 2.5 means a 102.5% change). This will cause AEMTuner to multiply the cell by, say, 2.5% if your O2 feedback is set at that instead of 102.5%, thusly dropping the value significantly.

[fastfalcon94]

I've been working on a guide for aem using all the info I pulled in from offline. Here it is so far. I'd appreciate any feedback as I'm not certified or anything when it comes to tuning. It was just a pain to get everything in AEM setup, so I'm hoping the guide will make it easier for other people. I couldn't find any complete guides out there, so I had to piece things together from multiple forums. It's not 100% complete yet. I still need to figure out the best way to tweak the startup tables.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bzs3LK1aJwcocVNZRlFhb1g4WUE/edit?usp=sharing

I also got my fuel all tweaked and have our local dyno rented for half a day in early july so I can adjust timing and see what power I'm making with the dr750s at 27-28psi. It's not a dynojet or mustang dyno. Here's the website.

AWD Dyno | VEMS US (http://www.vems.us/dyno)

Here's a pic of my suby on it last year.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/subybuild/135.jpg

[Nick_T]

Hi Guys ,reviving this thread ....Any updates ? trying to get timing info as mine is fluttering bad at low revs in the cruise at 2 to 3 k , i have the AEM v2 and looking to use the timing map in the thread to see if it will help running 13T,s CX front mount just running 0.6 bar for safety
Nick

[mb3000]

I never got around to trying the timing map, but I would love to hear your feedback. Be mindful of the RPM points though, if yours are different that it wouldn't be as easy as copy/paste.


Made myself an EMS version of the stock timing map using Greg's posted high octane timing map.

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad128/mb3000gt_photos/IMG_1458_zps1d754082.jpg
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad128/mb3000gt_photos/stockecutiminginterpolation_zpsabade145.jpg

[Nick_T]

Thanks for the reply , i can set up my table so it is the same the rescale it . not sure how i can copy and paste without it being in a map though as all i have is a screen shot of your map so i will have to enter it one at a time ...
Nick

[mb3000]

Let me check my tuning laptop to see if I still have the .cal. If i do I'll post it up in spreadsheet form to make it nice and easy.

[Nick_T]

I have put it all into the base map that comes with the ems , so i have it saved , i will try it in my car next week if i get chance. i will put the timing map into the map that is in the car now , i suffer with the low down flutter so we will see if this helps a bit ...

[mb3000]

You already copy the map over? Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, was at work all day. :shake2:

[fastfalcon94]

Low rpm flutter could be light compressor surge. Seems to be common with all these fast spooling turbos and single core front mounts. I am running KYWhiteLightnings fix on my car. Some extra timing down low also helped it a little.

[Nick_T]

You already copy the map over? Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, was at work all day. :shake2:
Yeah got it done ok did not take to long as i have a 3 screen pc so screen shot on one and write the map on the other took about 30 mins ...

[Nick_T]

Low rpm flutter could be light compressor surge. Seems to be common with all these fast spooling turbos and single core front mounts. I am running KYWhiteLightnings fix on my car. Some extra timing down low also helped it a little.
Mine is as bad as the video in this thread , even running on wastegate boost , after spending so much time and money on the car i don,t like driving it now . i will see if the new timing map will help out , i have seen the map ray has done but i am a bit scared to try that just yet .. the car will be tuned in the new year , i am even thinking of going bigger turbo,s again as the spool will be slower and should cure the problem . when i first finished the car i was up around 15 psi @ 5500 rpm (that was the set limit) and i could get 12 psi @ 3300 at 50% throttle , The problem is when cruising i get 2-3 psi at 1800 - 2000 rpm at 30% throttle on a slight incline i have a map if anyone wants to look at and also a AEMdata log showing this
Nick

[J. Fast]

I have a TD-04 map that eliminated surge using timing alone. There's 4 cars using it in Colorado and a few others across the US. I'll. post up a screen shot.

I also converted every map in the Timing Maps thread to AEM to observe in 3D and compare using the calibration compare feature. Pretty much every Chrome ECU map I see I grab and convert. I'll post a few up later and link them in.

I like using AEM over Chrome because it offers a 3d timing map feature. You can really see the holes in the map where the Timing doesn't transition smooth and causes little tip in and steady state problems.

[fastfalcon94]

Sweet. I'd like to see this surge eliminating map! I played with timing on mine and it liked higher timing but I couldn't eliminate my surge until KY's kit

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

[fastfalcon94]

So whie driving and maintaining part throttle in the surge, I had my friend highlight the group cells that AEM was in. We decreased it by 5 and tried increasing it by 5. It was noticeably better with the increase, however it was still present. Hindsight though, maybe it won't play a role if you are making the changes while the surge is already initiated. Anyways here is my current timing map. I was running around 20-21 degrees up in the higher rpms but recently advanced it a little more. I never got to try it out thanks to winer rolling in.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/aem/CharlieCurrentTiming_zps07a1ea57.jpg

This is my current .cal file (1000cc pte injectors, dr750s, 3.0L with Rays pistons/rods/pins, NLTS enabled)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzs3LK1aJwcoczJDY2JtZ0doTFU/edit?usp=sharing



I still have a lot of work to do on my tune. It's definitely been a great learning experience.

Heres my pull before the extra timing.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/aem/2013-11-20_2229_graphjpg_zps86f45aa4.jpg

This is it in Virtual Dyno with the SAE stuff set. My buddy is in the car with me, I don't weight 405 pounds. I don't know how accurate it is as far as numbers, but it has definitely been very useful to me seeing changes from one pull to another. I'm also running mid to high 11s for an AFR with pumpgas and ~ 800cc of 50/50 meth through one of Coolingmist's new super atomozing injectors and 200psi pump. Does anyone have any advice on getting more power out of it? I think I can still keep going with timing. It was night and day going from 13 up top to 20. KYWhiteLightning had to stop around 24/25 though. He mentioned I should try turning the boost down a little too as I was not seeing any real differences after 25/26psi. How lean should you go with pump/meth? The other thing I could do is change my mixture a little to 75/25 meth/water. This winter I'm also hoping to go with a new intake manifold and q45 TB flange.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/aem/2013-11-20_2229_virtualdyno_zps37d74168.jpg

[J. Fast]

Here's a few timing maps recently posted up I transferred to AEM... Plus some

My current twin 20G EMS timing map optimized on a dyno

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/20gsE-85TimingColorado_zps2b700e20.jpg

Surge fix dyno optimized timing map for pumpgas TD-04 turbos boosting up to 200KPA

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/JFast1150ccinjectorsignmap_zps79117e0d.jpg

Stock ignition, twin turbo, high octane timing map translated from 99 Chrome ECU

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/Stock3000gttimingmap_zps56de5a95.jpg

kylightning's high octane timing map on DR750's with methanol injection

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/Kylightningtimingmap_zps635e49a2.jpg

My personal dyno optimized and smoothed stock timing map.

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/timingmap_zps213841eb.jpg

I like the smooth ones. They pull real linear. ;)

[kywhitelightning]

Wow, that is a pretty interesting map for surge fix. Was that created at elevation?

Jeff

[J. Fast]

Wow, that is a pretty interesting map for surge fix. Was that created at elevation?

Jeff

It started at elevation. In 2010 I drove across the US from Denver to Maryland. I stopped at 4 dynos on my 5,000 mile roadtrip. I kept optimizing to resolve the tune as the air density changed. This final revision was developed at my last stop on the trip. I worked with J. Rhodes at ET Tuning in Union, Missouri until we resolved the surge problems on my 19t setup at the time. Took about three hours to figure it out but we got it.

[Nick_T]

I never got around to trying the timing map, but I would love to hear your feedback. Be mindful of the RPM points though, if yours are different that it wouldn't be as easy as copy/paste.

Well i tried this map today as the weather gave me a chance to do so , car started ok but would not rev up , very hesitant.. may be due to the fact i only had chance to change the ignition map and no time to mess around with the fuel map , but no joy at all with this .....
Merry Christmas to you all ...

[familyMAN]

Do you know how to log? If so, send me one along with your .cal.

[mb3000]

Sorry it didn't help your situation. Maybe FamilyMan can help you.

[Nick_T]

Do you know how to log? If so, send me one along with your .cal.

Hi
I have AEMdata which i use to log , what i will do is put my old cal back in then i can go for a run and save a log will not be for a few days now though i will upload them and send a link (if i can find somewhere to upload it to)
Many thanks

[familyMAN]

Just email them to me. I sent you me email address.

[familyMAN]

Hi
I have AEMdata which i use to log , what i will do is put my old cal back in then i can go for a run and save a log will not be for a few days now though i will upload them and send a link (if i can find somewhere to upload it to)
Many thanks

Sent you some thoughts, concerns, and ideas.

edit: Just looked at Jfasts td04 timing map. That will give you an idea of what I was talking about. You are almost running anti-lag with timing almost half what his is at 2000rpm :D As suggested, please make sure your timing is synced before doing anything and calibrate the TPS. Then add timing but don't jump straight to j's. Start less and see how it reacts. (j tunes a lot of modifier tables, so his actual timing may be much less than his posted map so don't cheat and copy.) Then fine tune your fueling.

[J. Fast]

let's see the timing map...