might be starting m build this summer, need opinions and info

[3000gttom]

.....

[vroom4]

So you are going to drop all this money into the car to get....300whp?

[vroom4]

AWHP....and easily at 300awhp. You are going down the path so many have gone down before you...and wished they just bought a well maintained vr4 as a base to start modding.

[vr4tune]

also remember, stock vr4 is only like 230 whp

Where did you get that number? I made 332 whp with exhaust, k&n intake filter, and 2psi more boost than stock, and 308whp on stock boost!

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss357/vr4tune/charts/scan0002.jpg

[futurevr4man]

I typed out a long response but it's just not worth arguing about. I would like to see it get done but some of the things you are saying and asking are pretty silly.

I'm pretty sure gtwizard had a tuning system on his car at ng10 too.

[stealthee]

nice numbers! ive looked at many posts of stock vr4's and they dont usually get very much, but your car isnt stock so thats a lil different...

to be honest, i dont want a vr4 because i dont like the sound, im not a drag racer either so awd doesnt really do anything for me but add weight vs fwd with lsd

ive got a spare motor and i want to build it n/a, i dont care for your opinions on the n/a platform vs the turbo

all i want are opinions for the options out there for an n/a build

If you think all AWD does is add weight then you have no clue whatsoever and are going to do nothing but throw money in the garbage with your NA build. You will never see 300 whp. There are only a few (and I mean a few as in less than 5) guys who have went over 200 and only 2 that I know of over 220 whp NA.

[stealthee]

These cars just can't do 300 whp in NA. If it could, it would have been done by now. GT Wizard has thrown a ton of engineering ideas at his NA and sits at 229 whp. You will NOT get even close to 300whp. The fact that no one has broken even 230 whp tells me you won't ever see 220, let alone 300.

[stealthee]

is that a joke...honda 2l motors make 300whp na...there is not much to engineer and i have talked gtwiz many times...he has a cool car but it is really only halfway built and really needs proper tuning... the fact that his very basic setup makes 229whp should be motivation to actually advance the n/a platform

this is what i am doing...the tuning i have was not possible without AEM until i pulled the file from the ECU and got Merlin over at EvolutionM to get a basic definitions file setup for me
I have timing, fuel, idle, injector scaling, maf scaling, rev limit, you name it....its all under my control via the stock ecu
Merlin modified the timing map to go up to 8000rpm for me too...

honestly looking at how conservative the stock tune is...it may be possible to get 200whp with something as simple as headers+exhaust and a tune

gtwiz hit 229 at 5800rpm....with some mods to shift the torque curve up a bit 300whp should not be tough...just gotta do a little math

You are dreaming.

[futurevr4man]

lets see you build your "8000 rpm build" and prove us wrong.

btw basing your build around the rpm is a silly idea. you get your cams and you tune for where the power is made. when the power drops off, you set the limit there.

no one here is going to support your claims. like i said, i would love to see it get done, but what you are saying just sounds silly. you cant come in and just say "do a little math" and expect us to get behind you on this. some of the questions you are asking shows your lack of knowledge. not tryin to be a dick, just shootin straight with you and stating the facts.

[stealthee]

You're funny if you think we are going to delete out posts. You asked for advice, you were given advice. If you choose to ignore said advice, fine, just don't be pissed when we all say we told you so.

[futurevr4man]

firstly, how many of these engines have you built AT ALL?! turbo or NA?!

second, if you have built one of these, what kind of numbers did you put down? whatever your answer is, my response is "thats what i thought".

third, re-read your thread title. maybe i cant read, or maybe you are more unintelligent than i initially thought, but i believe it asks for OPINIONS. thats what you are getting.

lastly, whats so funny is that you act like you know so much about engines, but you dont even know if its expensive to get an engine balanced (much less if you should or should not get it balanced... or course you should)! you want answers? here, ill answer all of your ridiculous questions...


not sure if im going to be able to afford it, i already have one 40hr/week job which ill need the cash from that for school, if i can get another job then all of that will be for the car

in school for what? please dont tell me engineering...

there are a few things i am considering that i could use info on if anyone has it

first off, how high should i rev? i need info on when oiling becomes a problem? will either tranny shift at 9000rpm mtx or atx? does anyone know when the obx headers do their scavenging and when the flow reverses....just wandering will they allow 9k or only 8k or somewhere in between??? also want this to still work as a dd car

how high you rev it had NOTHING to do with the power you will output. your CAMS do, and none of the cams i have ever hear of will help you make power the power you want at 8000 much less 9000rpms

so, can 300whp be done at 8k or will i need 9k because it looks like 9k will cost like 5x as much as an 8k build?

do a 10,000 rpm build like a real man :shake2:

things to consider

1) i already have n/a longblock that will sit on my workbench all summer so this can be done over time (huge thanks to machzrcr on 3si for the motor)
it has forged crank, 2-bold main

i will definately go with high compression pistons, are the ross 12.5 the only ones on the market? also depending on 8k or 9k build, how much bottom end work needs done, balancing?, probably need full blueprint for 9k(very expensive)?

no, blue-prints are not very expensive, and how much bottom end work do you want to do? you will make like 200 horsepower. not like you will be bending rods or anything.

2) for heads, this is a heck of a list and i want it to stay usable as a daily driver so,
should do porting at all on the intake side? some people say you should, some say you shouldnt. do some research. will they flow for 300whp? yes. but you wont make that much
can i just polish the exhaust myself? i dont know? can you?
do i stay with stock valves or go oversized? you would probably not see a gain from increasing size
cam regrinds or crower? 272deg good for 8k? 280deg for 9k? again, i doubt either one will be good for 9000 because your power will drop off by then
which adjustables cam gears 3sx or fidanza? do your own research to come up with an educated opinion
are crower springs retainers ok for 8k build? would 9k need double springs? the 8000 would need probably even need the double springs
my car is 99 so i have 99 lifters which will be fine at 8k, but will they hold up at 9k or do i need nelsons solids? 99's will be fine

3)intake manifold
does anyone know the effective runner lengths and runner area for the n/a manifold?
anyone know the plenum volume?you can measure all of this easily using some water. i would be amazed if anyone knows these measurements. except hanz, he might cause he knows crap like this for no reason
stock tb should be big enough? research velocity in your intake manifold and come up with an educated opinion
should the runner track before injectors be ported or smoother out? your questions doesnt make sense, but having a rough surface helps with fuel atomization
(i think the rough surface is the keep fuel from sticking to the sides because the turbulence along the wall will pick it up better vs a smooth wall...maybe there is more too it in terms of just airflow or maybe contaminents from egr, i guess i could call my one engineer friend. he does a lot of fluid dynamicswork)

4)i already have obx headers, and thats pretty much the only design out there so id really like to know when they reverse flow...if it is before 9k then obviously ill do an 8k build because i have no way to fab headersreversing flow has to do with maxing the flow that the pipes can handle. you wont do that with an NA build

5) ecu tuning
i have a 99sl, so 99 ecu, fully tune-able but only to 8k, 9k would need aem to actually get the most out of because if i revved to 9k it would still be using the timing set for 8k which pretty much means no power...could maybe hold it to 8400-8500

this entire thing makes zero sense. if its a flashable ecu, you can change whatever you need to. DO SOME RESEARCH

6) tranny...
have atx right now and i feel it will do better at high rpm's because of much quicker shifts. also the long power band from this build should make up for the longer gearing on the atx...but should i get an lsd? is quaife worth a grand. or should i get an obx and rebuild it? end clutch? translab shift kit?(i already have a cooler). im leaning toward obx lsd...keep in mind that since this is an n/a build, there is not the massive amount of torque there to break things like in a turbo build

idk much about the auto's. but i doubt you will need to build it much, and quiafe is considered a much better LSD to get. again, do some research

7) extras
what about cooling. do i need a high cap radiator? better flowing water pump or oil pump? why would your radiator magically not be able to handle your mighty build? where exactly do you plan on finding these "better flowing" oil OR water pumps? please enlighten me...
ive got vr4 injectors and vr4 pump. will i need more? maybe pump, but your injectors wont need to be bigger
i'll build my own exhaust at my buddies house. should i do single or double? i like high pitch exhaust note. it doesnt matter. whatever you want

i would love to hear opinions or any info anyone has about any aspect of this

i feel like an 8k 12.5-1 properly tuned n/a can make 300whp, but at the same time i dont want to decide halfway through that i actually want a 9k build and have to go back to square one

happy? i answered your questions. i hope you learned that you need to do some of your own research. half of those were pretty obvious, the other half were not scientific, they were preference questions. you wont outflow a single shot or dual exhaust, so it doesnt matter what you do. its preference.

[vr4tune]

I have a degree in automotive applied science. I think I have a clue! ALSO their are a lot of very smart people on this forum who have had over a decade of experience with this platform. I'm not here to argue with you. I'm only trying help.

[IPD]

wow...this thread has fail written all over it.

let me just add that the number of NATURALLY ASPIRATEDcar models in the history of automotive mechanics that have gotten 100hp per litre on 93 octane or lower--can be counted on 1 hand.

...and while that's sinking in, i'll remind our viewers that a tt-conversion can be purchased for ~$2000 or less, and can make 300-350whp--on 9b's.

[futurevr4man]

please delete your posts guys, in an attempt to save face... even though i quoted him...

i mean, im all about helping some of the new people here, but good lord

[IPD]

so he deleted his posts, and we're expected to follow suit? no thanks. how about we leave up what we have as a reference for others who might not know about the shortcomings of trying for n/a build in the future.

if you really want N/A power, you're better off picking something with 1L individual cylinder displacement.

[3000gttom]

"how high you rev it had NOTHING to do with the power you will output. your CAMS do, and none of the cams i have ever hear of will help you make power the power you want at 8000 much less 9000rpms "

well the build must be tailored to which rpm i would choose...you change characteristics of the engine to make peak torque in that range...its important that every piece is set up for that specific target rpm

"do a 10,000 rpm build like a real man"
that would definately require drysump, nelsons solid lifters, cams that would likely not be usable on the street at all without some sort of fabricated cam phasing system, and a multistage intake manifold like a yamaha r1 becaue itbs dont fit too well in our engine...i cant afford those things anytime soon

"no, blue-prints are not very expensive, and how much bottom end work do you want to do? you will make like 200 horsepower. not like you will be bending rods or anything."
blueprints can get quite expensive, and the higher you rev the more necessary it would be...and yes a motor making 200 tq is not likely to be bending the forged rods

"'stock valves or go oversized?' you would probably not see a gain from increasing size"
good ill stay stock

"'272deg good for 8k? 280deg for 9k?' again, i doubt either one will be good for 9000 because your power will drop off by then"
lol, the whole point of this build will be to change engine characteristics to make power there.

"'are crower springs retainers ok for 8k build? would 9k need double springs?' the 8000 would need probably even need the double springs
'my car is 99 so i have 99 lifters which will be fine at 8k, but will they hold up at 9k or do i need nelsons solids?' 99's will be fine"
good info thanks

"'should the runner track before injectors be ported or smoother out?' your questions doesnt make sense, but having a rough surface helps with fuel atomization"
yea, i was just thinking in the tract before the injector it may help to smooth out the path since its just air flowing through

"reversing flow has to do with maxing the flow that the pipes can handle. you wont do that with an NA build"
actually its more about the harmonic oscilation from the exhaust pulses in each individual header due to pressure differences...the same concept that makes header work so well in some rpm ranges will also hurt in other rpm ranges

"this entire thing makes zero sense. if its a flashable ecu, you can change whatever you need to. DO SOME RESEARCH"
yea but scaling up to 9k would not leave enough resolution through the powerband for a good tune...ive done the research..i think jester and hans are the only other people with this stuff set up but hans doesnt use it anymore...and jester hasnt done anything but log on his car because its his dd that is staying stock so no need to tune

"why would your radiator magically not be able to handle your mighty build?"
high rpm = high heat

"where exactly do you plan on finding these "better flowing" oil OR water pumps? please enlighten me..."
electric ones? if i needed an expensive dry sump setup that would definately have a lot of weight on how high i would want to rev

[3000gttom]

ok, im done with this thread because there are too many people that just want to argue over nothing

if you actually have some good input on any of the topics please pm me

[IPD]

why don't you pm suthner & ask him about what it's like to own a fully built n/a running on what is essentially race gas?

[turbomopar]

Hey I'm from the turbomopar site and I've talked to Ondontii a lot. He did some crazy calculations and came up with the conclusion that a sohc 3.0L limit should be right around 390 n/a crank horsepower. So there is no reason why a DOHC n/a shouldn't also have a limit of around that. Of course powerband would be from 4000/5000 ish rpms and stretch to over 8000. It would be terrible for the street i.e no low end power which is why no one has done this. Plus there would have to be lifters for the sohc to handle those high rpms. Same reason why no one is running "race cams" on their street n/a but more of a street/strip grind.


Just read this right here.


My SOHC 6G72 motor made 220 fwhp before it was even broken-in, at 1,300 ft. above sea level, ambient temperature of 90 degrees. This setup was deliberately designed to be driven comfortably at slow street speeds or at high road speed, not the track.

Had I wanted more power for purely racing purposes, I could have made more modifications. I discussed this at length with David Thomas at Racing Performance Works (their six-pack throttle system and much more aggressive camshafts) several years ago.

Everyone saying that 220-230 whp is the limit is wrong. Maybe for a streetable car it is if you want to retain some low end power but none of these n/a cars are fully built. Oh and that six pack has been shown to add 30+whp on a car with just exhaust mods with bolt ons stock heads/cams/bottom end.

[stealthee]

Sunmind also had over $12,000 into his build. Everything on his car was one off. You act like an additional 70 whp just comes in a can.

[turbomopar]

He also wasted money on extrude hone and stock sized valves for $50 a piece. None of that stuff is worth what he paid. WE talked about his build at length on the other forums. It's not cheap but with an unlimited budget huge power is possible with the n/a.

[CoopKill]

Well then, by all means we would love to see a world record broke by a mile...

[turbomopar]

Well then, by all means we would love to see a world record broke by a mile...

Sure give me an unlimited budget. Then the record would be broken. Many people with a high budget won't mod n/a to its limits when you can just go forced induction.

If you said that you can get a n/a civic into the 9s many years ago people would think your nuts.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie7pbJSnEdQ

Its just that there aren't enough people pushing the n/a platform for both the dodges/mitsubishi 6g72

[turbomopar]

wow...this thread has fail written all over it.

let me just add that the number of NATURALLY ASPIRATEDcar models in the history of automotive mechanics that have gotten 100hp per litre on 93 octane or lower--can be counted on 1 hand.


Dude come on. Honda Civic Si is 100hp per liter, Honda S2000 is 120hp a liter, BMW M3 4.0L is 100+ hp per liter its rated at like 414bhp, Subaru BRZ is 100hp per liter, Lotus Elise is 100+ hp per liter. You get the point and that was without even searching. If you look at the modded list you can add many more cars with 100+ hp per liter. My friend has a 370z with boltons (headers, intake, exhaust, etc.) making 375+ crank horsepower from a 3.7L.

blah you were probably talking whp which is still possible but much harder. too much beer for cinco de mayo lol

[IPD]

Dude come on. Honda Civic Si is 100hp per liter, Honda S2000 is 120hp a liter, BMW M3 4.0L is 100+ hp per liter its rated at like 414bhp, Subaru BRZ is 100hp per liter, Lotus Elise is 100+ hp per liter. You get the point and that was without even searching. If you look at the modded list you can add many more cars with 100+ hp per liter. My friend has a 370z with boltons (headers, intake, exhaust, etc.) making 375+ crank horsepower from a 3.7L.

blah you were probably talking whp which is still possible but much harder. too much beer for cinco de mayo lol

imho, unless you're 100% mexican, don't celebrate cinco de mayo. i mean, is your CROWNING ACHIEVEMENT in life that you beat the french? really? FAIL.

[Blackmount]

I think it could be done. Not with the stock 3.0 tho. Maybe of u started with JDM 3.5 and built it to hell. or did 3.8 and stroked it and built it to hell.


GTWizards car put 222whp. I dynod 187whp with nothing but exhaust a shitty intake, and a little bit of ignition timing Im running a 4cyl galant maf too that could be hurting my power....anyways GTW Basically all he had was Cams, expensive heads, and a tune with some good bolt ones. He did not touch bottom end. Put those same mods on a 12:1 bottom end on meth. I bet itd be potent. Now if u stroked that/had more displacement and gave it a really solid tune. 300awhp i can see happening. However the cost i dont think would justify the hp gain, and a hardcore n/a build requires some serious knowledge.

But shit guys, u dont need to be such assholes about it. If hes going to make mistakes, let him make them and learn and prosper from them

[futurevr4man]

he will make the mistakes no matter what we say.

and im not denying that gt wizards 222 horsepower could be broken. im saying you arent going to see 80 more horsepower than his 222 without some extensive and expensive work.

and i love that the op never answered me here or in a pm about if he has ever built an engine before



Sure give me an unlimited budget. Then the record would be broken. Many people with a high budget won't mod n/a to its limits when you can just go forced induction.

If you said that you can get a n/a civic into the 9s many years ago people would think your nuts.

Its just that there aren't enough people pushing the n/a platform for both the dodges/mitsubishi 6g72

the original post had already been concerned about his/her budget. so i dont understand any of your posts? if nelson wanted to, im sure he could build a really fast NA based off this platform too, but it would still run 15's because he would be driving it. :lol:

[stealthee]

If Nelson we driving he would be lucky to break out of the 17's.

[Blackmount]

Hhahaahahaha

[JGreenwood238]

300whp is a very optimistic goal to say the least.. Maybe you should aim for 300 crank hp, even that will prove to be a very expensive goal. Even if you did succeed in making 300whp with the 6g72 you're NOT going to have a streetable engine at all lol.. This might be a farfetched plan, but look into getting a JDM 6G74 DOHC, then a 6G75. Bore the block to accept the 75's larger pistons and the crank should bolt up, or so I've heard. You would probably have to talk to Ray Pampena about pistons/rods, as I'm not sure if the 75 stuff would work just like that. If you used the Mivec heads they might, I believe the two engines have the same deck height. You would need a standalone ecu such as an aem unit to properly run the car and get mivec to function properly, but if you ported these heads, found some aftermarket cams, maybe talked to Ray Pampena about having some custom high compression pistons made, and threw every bolt-on you could find into the mix; you might be able to make your 300whp goal and then some. KEEP IN MIND that I've only built motocross bike engines and I've only been in the 3S scene for a couple of years so I don't even know if a setup like that would be possible or what complications you would face, but I've done a good amount of research on these cars and you will most likely need a crazy frankenstein build like that if you ever plan to break 300whp.

[Blackmount]

Id honestly hit up some salvage yards for a 4th generatiom Eclipse GT. 3.8L 280hp/300tq thats hell of a motor to start with. Throw in some cams and BPUs along with a tune ud be 320hp at crank easy.

[IPD]

Id honestly hit up some salvage yards for a 4th generatiom Eclipse GT. 3.8L 280hp/300tq thats hell of a motor to start with. Throw in some cams and BPUs along with a tune ud be 320hp at crank easy.

besides the fact that it's completely wrong for our cars & requires an obscene amount of work vs. even a 3.5L....what could possibly go wrong?

[Blackmount]

Nothing a welder, sawzall, and a angle grinder wont fix

[JGreenwood238]

besides the fact that it's completely wrong for our cars & requires an obscene amount of work vs. even a 3.5L....what could possibly go wrong?

This is why I suggested starting with the DOHC 74 block, although 300whp would obliterate the fwd 3S transmission lol.. I've broke two differentials already and I'm MAYBE making 200whp. :/

[Blackmount]

Dont drive like a tard. And trans wont blow up. U dont need to dump it and rip into gear. U can be gentle and still hual ass

[JGreenwood238]

The first one actually went while cruising, my car was pretty much stock at the time and hadn't been beat on. The pin just came out.. The second one may have been my fault though lol.

[stealthee]

Dont drive like a tard. And trans wont blow up. U dont need to dump it and rip into gear. U can be gentle and still hual ass

I've lost 5 diffs. 2 of them at the track, 3 of them while driving absolutely normal. The last one was never, EVER, launched. Not once. These transmissions are glass.

[Blackmount]

Its cause u suck at trolling.

[Amphiron]

I've always dreamed of having unlimited machining and PLC programming abilities and making a high compression pistons, big ports and direct injection for a stroked 6G72. Maybe with that you will see well over 300WHP. So whats the huge limiting factor with the N/A's I understand the engine was engineered from the ground up for turbos but what is it exactly that makes it so it can't it see over 229 WHP with out le boost? I'm sure it's not simply displacement.

[CoopKill]

Dear OP,

I must ask, BUT WHY?

kthxbai

[Blackmount]

I've always dreamed of having unlimited machining and PLC programming abilities and making a high compression pistons, big ports and direct injection for a stroked 6G72. Maybe with that you will see well over 300WHP. So whats the huge limiting factor with the N/A's I understand the engine was engineered from the ground up for turbos but what is it exactly that makes it so it can't it see over 229 WHP with out le boost? I'm sure it's not simply displacement.

There is no reason why. Its simply just no one has taken it that far yet. Remember GTWizard was on stock bottom end. Plenty of room to make more hp.

[IPD]

Nothing a welder, sawzall, and a angle grinder wont fix

been a while since i looked at it, but i could have sworn the 75 rotated the opposite direction...and if that's the case, good luck with that.

[Blackmount]

Yes, but this is not a uncommon thing to deal with when it comes to motor swaps

[turbomopar]

I've always dreamed of having unlimited machining and PLC programming abilities and making a high compression pistons, big ports and direct injection for a stroked 6G72. Maybe with that you will see well over 300WHP. So whats the huge limiting factor with the N/A's I understand the engine was engineered from the ground up for turbos but what is it exactly that makes it so it can't it see over 229 WHP with out le boost? I'm sure it's not simply displacement.

Hmmm

My Thoughts on the NA Platform - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f36/my-thoughts-na-platform-298299/)

[Blackmount]

Op didnt shoe a single dyno graph or anything. For me and my n/a the 1/4 is the last thing on my mind because im fwd, why bother. I like my power for just enjoying street pulls or autox/track days and dyno days. Ok u put stage 3 heads on ur car, now dyno it and tell us what u make. I dont see the want here being faster 1/4 time i see the want to be just more power.

[GTwizard]

Not been here for a while. I fixed my trans braking days by running an LSD and coil over. LSD has no spider to explode. LSD can be exploded with weel hop.
So coil over takes care of that. The rest of the trans is rather stout.

[stealthee]

Wait til you shatter 2nd...

[Blackmount]

Ive been trying to break my trans...no luck.

[stealthee]

You aren't trying hard enough then.

[GTwizard]

That's funny. I have not had it together long enough to justify my statment I guess. Not yet been road racing with it or to the drags for that matter. It is the drags that used to kill then for me.
Not going to make NG this year, so no testing there for me. Maybe the TXG will help me evaluate. I just hate the thought of moving up to the VR4 trans. Far to heavy for what I want.
Once the new intake

[stealthee]

When I broke 2nd I had solid mounts, coilovers, and Quaiffe. And I am making at most 150-160 whp.

It basically went tire spin, pedal out, hit 2nd crunch, crunch, crunch.

Funny thing is it still shifted into 2nd like nothing was wrong, but as soon as I let out the clutch the forward momentum maintained, but the crunching was persistant.

[Blackmount]

187whp... no transmission breakage here.. ive been limping this trans around with dsm internals for awhile now. 2nd gear syncros shot, no problem ripping it into gear.... driver mod. :)

[stealthee]

I've NEVER had synchro issues... driver mod.

[Blackmount]

Syncro issues is cause i got jipped on what was suppose to be good set of DSM internals. Turns out 2nd grinds.. i got my money back and got to keep the parts at least.

[stealthee]

You keep on mentioning DSM internals like it is different than the internals of a FWD 3s. Its exactly the same.

[Blackmount]

Actually they are not the same... the rear case is slightly different also many of the shafts are much thinner/smaller on the dsm internals then the 3/s along with the shift forks were also different.

[stealthee]

It might just be the year you got it out of because 3s internals slightly changed thru the years too. I've had about 8 of them apart so I have seen the differences.

[Blackmount]

Vs fwd dsm transmissions.