AEM V1 vs Flash ECU? Which should I have?

[Gearheadvr4]

Have a Ver 1 AEM. Seems pretty complex but I been told it offers the most options and can tune to the edge if you know what your doing. (I don't... Tuning is my last obstacle with these cars).

I keep hearing how nice the flashed ECUs are and I'm wondering what I would loose if anything by getting one and selling the AEM. I'm thinking it would be easier to tune?

I'm open to ideas.


Here is my basic setup but could change slightly if I go to E85. I will stay relativly low hp/tq untill i feel ive got everything running perfect. Not shooting for 1000hp eventhough the engine is setup for it. Im hoping for around 650-700 hp on meth or e85 and at least 600 on pump. Plan on autocross some and drag race a few times till something breaks.

- fully built 3.5L forged everything block with stock TT heads
- 3sx TD05 kit 16g
- 720 cc denso inj
- Koyo radiator
- FMIC from PMP
- fully converted Spyder SL to AWD with 6-speed
- intrax springs / stock ecs

[markoverclock]

personally i would stay with the v1 ems. I love aem and its easy to use once you know what you are doing. i just not sure what the stock ecu "unlocked" is fully capable of. I know for sure the aem ems is last ecu you will need. :biggrin:

unless you get the aem v2 and are waiting for thier e85 update like me.lol
then it will have the capability of using flex fuel sensors. :Clap:

[TurboSinceBirth]

I would personally get the flashed ECU over the AEM EMS v1 or 2 if you don't have any tuning experience, don't plan on spending $1200+ for a complete tune, and don't expect to never mod your car again. Standalones have their benefits and can run like a stock car if you get a really good tuner, but it's so much easier to leave it simple if you don't plan on chasing down dyno or track numbers all day long. You'll have less headaches with the flashed ECU when it comes to tuning it in general or changing your tune for mods. The only reason I would buy an AEM would be if I had the time to learn to use it well. Otherwise, I'm too big of a DIY'er to spend the money on having a professional tune the car. I work more on my cars than I drive them but that's only because I can't leave them alone mainly because I want it to be like new again.

[J-Groove]

Another vote for a flash ECU. Both setups are fully capable for what you're looking at doing.

You can sell your AEM and have a good chunk of change left over in your pocket.

Some people are still weary of the flash ECU, but I personally don't understand the fear, it is a great solution. I think once a number of us have our builds completed and our cars on the dyno you will see the flash ECU become a lot more popular. i just think a lot of people need more "proof" as it were.

-John

[ChargerX3]

ECU flash. Been running mine in my 94 for 6 months now. Comes fully populated with factory specs, but is completely customizable with all the safeguards in place. Even has a bunch of neat add ons that any drag strip racer would like.

[Gearheadvr4]

What kinds of add ins? I've tried to follow what's going on but things moved faster and faster and I've lost track of the benefits.

What can a AEM do vs a flashed ECU not do?

[donniekak]

What kinds of add ins? I've tried to follow what's going on but things moved faster and faster and I've lost track of the benefits.

What can a AEM do vs a flashed ECU not do?
For now it has several features not available on a stock ecu. Speed density, individual injector trimming, and some of the anti lag shifting options, to name a few. That being said, I ran a modded stock ecu in my dsm with 1600cc injectors, on e85, at almost 40lbs of boost. I've run a flashed 3s ecu in my stealth, and would say the only limitations are being worked on by several people. But even at its current state of development I wouldn't hesitate to run a flashed ecu in a td05 3s. It also is a huge advantage for the 96+ guys to be able to pass obd2 checks for emissions with a flashed ecu.

[mb3000]

With an EMS you can pop an intercooler pipe on the highway, and drive it home without any major problems. Just takes a little work to get what you want out of it, where as the flashed ecu is less involved IMO.

[ChargerX3]

With an EMS you can pop an intercooler pipe on the highway, and drive it home without any major problems. Just takes a little work to get what you want out of it, where as the flashed ecu is less involved IMO.

There is a fix for that ;) You can tune limp mode :)

[Gearheadvr4]

Speed density is really nice. I went that route when I had my Maft Pro. I really loved the little unit but I could never get a stable tune with it.

Chances of a Mitsubishi ecu having speed density?

[Greg E]

Chances of a Mitsubishi ecu having speed density?

It's been done before.

[Greg E]

With an EMS you can pop an intercooler pipe on the highway, and drive it home without any major problems. Just takes a little work to get what you want out of it, where as the flashed ecu is less involved IMO.

You can do the same with the stock ECU. Read up on my disassembly thread on the "Limp Mode" table.

[BlackStealth]

If you pop an intercooler pipe and want to drive home, just disconnect the MAF connector and the flash ECU will go into limp mode.

The biggest turn-off I had with the AEM EMS was the long cranking times for our cars. I prefer to have my car start under 1 second with flash ECU.

[donniekak]

If you look at other Mitsubishi platforms, for the most part only dedicated track cars are running a standalone. There are tons of high horsepower evo's and dsm's running the stock ecu. I believe both of those platforms have run over 1000whp, on the stock computer.

[niterydr]

I would personally get the flashed ECU over the AEM EMS v1 or 2 if you don't have any tuning experience, don't plan on spending $1200+ for a complete tune, and don't expect to never mod your car again. Standalones have their benefits and can run like a stock car if you get a really good tuner, but it's so much easier to leave it simple if you don't plan on chasing down dyno or track numbers all day long. You'll have less headaches with the flashed ECU when it comes to tuning it in general or changing your tune for mods. The only reason I would buy an AEM would be if I had the time to learn to use it well. Otherwise, I'm too big of a DIY'er to spend the money on having a professional tune the car. I work more on my cars than I drive them but that's only because I can't leave them alone mainly because I want it to be like new again.

If people are paying $1200+ for a professional tune, I have been WAY undercharging!

[mb3000]

Tuning the EMS is easy, the negative reputation it has received is truly sad.

People aren't willing to work hard for results these days. Instant gratification is all the rage.

[TurboSinceBirth]

If people are paying $1200+ for a professional tune, I have been WAY undercharging!

Go to any vendor on here or hit up any shop with an AWD dyno. They charge $150 an hour. If all they give you is a WOT tune, then you need to find another tuner. There's idle, cruising, decel, accel, part-throttle, cruise, A/C, cold start, hot start, knock table, multiple fail safes, and I'm sure as you know the list goes on and on. Sure you can charge a few hundred dollars to tune a car but it won't include everything mentioned above. If you want a stock running car with a standalone that makes good power you have to pay well for a full tune. It's not worth it imo when there are easier solutions out there like the flashed ECU. For now there aren't too many compromises using the stock ECU.

[Gearheadvr4]

Have to admit to a novice the AEM software is very intimidating at first glance. Maybe the v2 software is better.

[Greg E]

Tuning the EMS is easy, the negative reputation it has received is truly sad.

People aren't willing to work hard for results these days. Instant gratification is all the rage.

:lol:

If you're the type that likes to do everything the hard way....

[mb3000]

:lol:

If you're the type that likes to do everything the hard way....

I get more satisfaction doing things the hard way :dontknow2:

[Greg E]

I get more satisfaction doing things the hard way :dontknow2:

Want to take over the ECU disassembly for me? :)


Pointless psychological debate aside, I'll be honest in that tuning the stock ECU has It's own learning curve to over come. If it really was as brainless as tuning an ARC2, I wouldn't be making any $$ on tuning customer cars.

In terms of how much better it works is just an opinion debate. I don't see the stock ECU breaking any new HP records but I do see it becoming more popular once more features become released. About the only serious advantages the stock ECU holds over the AEM are cost and OBD2 compatibility.

I will still tease Ray about how much easier my car starts over his though. :lol:

[amicus]

Have a Ver 1 AEM. Seems pretty complex but I been told it offers the most options and can tune to the edge if you know what your doing. (I don't... Tuning is my last obstacle with these cars).

I keep hearing how nice the flashed ECUs are and I'm wondering what I would loose if anything by getting one and selling the AEM. I'm thinking it would be easier to tune?

I'm open to ideas.


I think it depends on your motivation. There's a learning curve with either. I bought a series 1 and spent about a month studying the guides. They're not that great but I kept going back and forth until they started to make sense. I read everything I could find on the various DSM forums. For me it was a challenge rather than an obstacle and I like the results I got. I have a "race it" map as well as a "road trip" map that gets ~29mpg @ 75mph running ~15.5 to 15.7 AFR. I made a map for emergencies that will run on 87 Octane. I also have a "no start" map for parking in dubious areas. Other people have driven it and had no idea it had an EMS. 98% of the time it starts like stock. Sometimes when it's been driven hard and restarted after a short stop it will take 2-3 seconds to start. I'm working on why that happens. I love the flexibility of it. One thing I learned is the more it can do the more complex it will become.
I haven't had any experience with flash tuning. I would assume the theory and learning curve is about the same. You have to learn what tables exist, where they are, what they do, and how to flash them. I think it's still a little experimental so I'm waiting until it's a bit more functional. I'm curious to learn how to flash. If you live in a state that is tough on emissions I'd go for the flash tune.

If you don't want to actually learn to tune yourself then I'd base the decision on how close I was to someone who could help when things go wrong, or when you decide to get another upgrade....and there's no doubt you will get that urge. :D

Good luck which ever way you go.

[niterydr]

Go to any vendor on here or hit up any shop with an AWD dyno. They charge $150 an hour. If all they give you is a WOT tune, then you need to find another tuner. There's idle, cruising, decel, accel, part-throttle, cruise, A/C, cold start, hot start, knock table, multiple fail safes, and I'm sure as you know the list goes on and on. Sure you can charge a few hundred dollars to tune a car but it won't include everything mentioned above. If you want a stock running car with a standalone that makes good power you have to pay well for a full tune. It's not worth it imo when there are easier solutions out there like the flashed ECU. For now there aren't too many compromises using the stock ECU.

My out of the box tunes at my shop were $750 complete per fuel type. 15% of the time spent tuning is on peak power, the rest is everything else. Now that I don't have a chassis dyno I charge a nominal fee and then the customer pays dyno time at whichever vendors dyno we are working with. I just never realized people were actually paying $1200+ for tunes, customers would scoff at me quoting $750....

The flashable ECU is a great alternative and is new and exciting. What makes it really nice is the mostly grassroots approach to unlocking the ECU and sharing with the public. That is one of the main reasons it is so popular in the EVO and Subaru communities, people were working on that capability from Day one and sharing results.

[Intropy]

Don't cut corners now - get that thing on a brake dyno for a professional tune. There's no substitute.

With that in mind, it's more about what your tuner can work with than anything. While you might find someone that can use and tune your flash ECU, you'll probably have better luck with the AEM.

[markoverclock]

The biggest turn-off I had with the AEM EMS was the long cranking times for our cars. I prefer to have my car start under 1 second with flash ECU.

I actually prefer long cranking times, lol. IT helps build oil pressure and prevents "dry scuffing" Im also gonna make an electric version of a preluber for my car to prevent it.

[BlackStealth]

I recall one day filling up at the gas station and I cranked for 8 seconds and no go. Before I had the chance for a second attempt someone approached me and asked if I needed help pushing the car. Apparently someone thought my AEM EMS equipped car was not functioning well. It was a luck of the draw when cranking the AEM EMS, sometimes it starts in 2 seconds, sometimes longer. After learning "statsync" was the root cause of the long starts (statsync couldn't get a lock), I went back to the stock ECU+piggyback for fast starts. Now that I have switched to a flashECU, I sold the piggyback and couldn't be any happier. :)

[Intropy]

Can you use AEMTuner and AEMData with the v1? I love standalones, but I'd rather run a flashed ECU than use AEMPro and AEMLog... *shudder*.

[niterydr]

Can you use AEMTuner and AEMData with the v1? I love standalones, but I'd rather run a flashed ECU than use AEMPro and AEMLog... *shudder*.

I've opened up V1 maps in Tuner, haven't messed with logs in Data yet.
Call me old school, but I LIKE Pro and Log.

[markoverclock]

I recall one day filling up at the gas station and I cranked for 8 seconds and no go. Before I had the chance for a second attempt someone approached me and asked if I needed help pushing the car. Apparently someone thought my AEM EMS equipped car was not functioning well. It was a luck of the draw when cranking the AEM EMS, sometimes it starts in 2 seconds, sometimes longer. After learning "statsync" was the root cause of the long starts (statsync couldn't get a lock), I went back to the stock ECU+piggyback for fast starts. Now that I have switched to a flashECU, I sold the piggyback and couldn't be any happier. :)

ive never had a long crank time with my aem, less than 2 seconds always. usually only 1 second and run.

[Intropy]

I've opened up V1 maps in Tuner, haven't messed with logs in Data yet.
Call me old school, but I LIKE Pro and Log.

I can forgive AEMPro since it's basically the same thing only with a cringe-worthy Windows-95-esque interface. Though I can't do without workspaces now.

But AEMLog is flaming pile of crap compared to AEMData. :p When the entire point of a program is to present and analyze data, the UI makes a huge difference.


What can a AEM do vs a flashed ECU not do?

I would resist the urge to reduce the differences to a bullet-point list. But if you must, there are some things the stock ECU can likely never do, such as on-board logging, real O2 feedback (not open/closed loop), P&H and staged injection (you mentioned meth), real boost control, etc. Everything else is a grey area to me. Obviously the stock ECU does things like knock control, accel fuel, DFCO, etc. How configurable these are compared to the AEM is something you'd have to ask Greg or someone else in the know.

If tuning an EMS is 'hard' and tuning the flash ECU is 'easy', all that really means is that your car is reasonably close to stock. If I ran a flashed ECU on my car (not possible without speed density, but hypothetically speaking) I would have to do just as much tuning in either case.

[Greg E]

I would resist the urge to reduce the differences to a bullet-point list. But if you must, there are some things the stock ECU can likely never do, such as on-board logging, real O2 feedback (not open/closed loop), P&H and staged injection (you mentioned meth), real boost control, etc. Everything else is a grey area to me. Obviously the stock ECU does things like knock control, accel fuel, DFCO, etc. How configurable these are compared to the AEM is something you'd have to ask Greg or someone else in the know.

While I agree (and stated earlier) that the learning curve for using both devices is about the same and just a matter of opinion, there's some mis-info with the features of the stock ECU.

On-board logging - the tactrix 2.0 cable does have this feature and uses the same type of sim card found in almost all modern android phones
Real 02 feedback = short and long term fuel trims. Everyone knows about this feature....
meth injection - yes it can. I'm working on that now.
real boost control - read my chromed ECU thread. V1.1 is setup to be boost based instead of airflow based boost control. However, after playing with both for some time now, I'll even argue that airflow based boost control (setup like this from the factory) is better as you get more "consistent" WHP based on the geography you're driving in...

[Gearheadvr4]

So in still back to the original question and I cannot decide.

I feel like the tuned ECU may have a smaller learning curve but the AEM has a little more flexibility if I'm willing to learn it.

Speed density is a large factor for me too. I ran it with another setup and really felt it was better. Plus filter pipes strait to the turbo is nice. Is there any advantage to running a maf type airflow meter?

[Greg E]

So in still back to the original question and I cannot decide.

I feel like the tuned ECU may have a smaller learning curve but the AEM has a little more flexibility if I'm willing to learn it.

Speed density is a large factor for me too. I ran it with another setup and really felt it was better. Plus filter pipes strait to the turbo is nice. Is there any advantage to running a maf type airflow meter?

I'm sure SD will happen in the future with the stock ECU.

The only advantage to "stock like" MAFs are the air counting accuracy. It's damn scary how accurately you can calculate HP based on the flow numbers it reports to the ECU. I'm hoping to show this if I can ever get to a dyno...

[Gearheadvr4]

So reading back a few posts the flash and AEM are roughly equal other than speed density (which is likely possible soon).

So I suppose it boils down to what will give me the best interface and enjoyment with the car. I've never looked at the tuner software for the flash ecu. Going to download and read up on it. The AEM software was complicated and hard to use at first glance.

Btw with 3.5 L on a flash ecu anything i would need to change to compensate for the extra displacement?

[Greg E]

.

Btw with 3.5 L on a flash ecu anything i would need to change to compensate for the extra displacement?

No.

You might find ecuflash easier to navigate.

Another disadvantage to flash tuning is no live tuning...

[Gearheadvr4]

I think with me as a beginner, live tuning wont be useful. I'll be pouring over the data to make even the smallest change.

[Greg E]

I think with me as a beginner, live tuning wont be useful. I'll be pouring over the data to make even the smallest change.

I do the same. Log a pull, pull over and review, update and flash, repeat....

Theres an instance where I wish I did have live tuning and that's for rescaling the MAF. The EVO guys found a way to link up to the RAM area of the ECU and adjust the tables live. When you're done tuning, you copy the tables into ECUFlash and save it to ROM. I haven't looked much into this yet to see if maybe it'll work for us. Jeff didn't sound enthusiastic that it would. :(

[Intropy]

While I agree (and stated earlier) that the learning curve for using both devices is about the same and just a matter of opinion, there's some mis-info with the features of the stock ECU.

On-board logging - the tactrix 2.0 cable does have this feature and uses the same type of sim card found in almost all modern android phones
Real 02 feedback = short and long term fuel trims. Everyone knows about this feature....
meth injection - yes it can. I'm working on that now.
real boost control - read my chromed ECU thread. V1.1 is setup to be boost based instead of airflow based boost control. However, after playing with both for some time now, I'll even argue that airflow based boost control (setup like this from the factory) is better as you get more "consistent" WHP based on the geography you're driving in...

Didn't know about logging on the tactrix cable, that's cool.

Comparing fuel trims to the AEM's O2 feedback is like comparing a BB gun to a cruise missile though. The feedback driver on the EMS is a configurable PID controller with two wideband inputs. A narrowband-based system is mainly for maintaining stoich (narrowbands would be inaccurate for any other purpose). The EMS has a full AFR target map (just like a fuel map) and can make corrections to each bank to maintain the target for each cell. How these per-cell trims are stored and cleared is also configurable. It's the same for boost control. With the AEM it's easy to implement things like "Don't go over 10psi if I'm in 6th gear".

I dig the flash ECU, I'm just saying... there's a reason the EMS is $1k. If they could be matched by a 14-year old re-purposed stock ECU, they should all kill themselves.

[Intropy]

Btw with 3.5 L on a flash ecu anything i would need to change to compensate for the extra displacement?

Everything will need to change. While you might be able to "get away with" stock settings, everything from your fuel map to ignition timing to accel/decel trims will be different.

[Jeff V.]

I dig the flash ECU, I'm just saying... there's a reason the EMS is $1k. If they could be matched by a 14-year old re-purposed stock ECU, they should all kill themselves.

It's $1000 (more like $1500) because it's a generic system meant to fit a dozen different cars and sold in small quantities. It's got no comparison to an OEM quality system tailored to a specific car and specific sensors, one which has hundreds of hours of tuning by professional calibration engineers and is built with emissions compliance, warranty needs and the ability to keep an engine alive despite some ham fisted idiot who never changes the oil and only uses the 'cheap' gas.

Last time I checked, the AEM used a very coarse knock feedback system which wasn't half as complex as Mitsu's patented factory system, to say nothing of the fact that the Mitsu system is actually tailored specifically to our engine.

I'm not saying the AEM isn't a damned nice piece of equipment. But there is precious little that makes it 'better' than the OEM ECU, and quite a bit that makes it worse. Starting off with Mitsubishi's factory developed calibrations will put you at a drivability point where you're far ahead of all but the absolute best AEM tuners out there, and you're getting there for a fraction of the price.

[Intropy]

I hear ya, and that's even more true for more recent ECUs, but the problem is once you mod your 3S you fall right into that "dozen different cars" category. Can anyone explain how is he supposed to tune his ignition timing without live tuning on a brake dyno?

[J. Fast]

It's $1000 (more like $1500) because it's a generic system meant to fit a dozen different cars and sold in small quantities. It's got no comparison to an OEM quality system tailored to a specific car and specific sensors, one which has hundreds of hours of tuning by professional calibration engineers and is built with emissions compliance, warranty needs and the ability to keep an engine alive despite some ham fisted idiot who never changes the oil and only uses the 'cheap' gas.

Last time I checked, the AEM used a very coarse knock feedback system which wasn't half as complex as Mitsu's patented factory system, to say nothing of the fact that the Mitsu system is actually tailored specifically to our engine.

I'm not saying the AEM isn't a damned nice piece of equipment. But there is precious little that makes it 'better' than the OEM ECU, and quite a bit that makes it worse. Starting off with Mitsubishi's factory developed calibrations will put you at a drivability point where you're far ahead of all but the absolute best AEM tuners out there, and you're getting there for a fraction of the price.

If you keep the engine stock, sure. If you don't, they're the same. I give the edge to EMS for another 5-10 years because there's a support base. Try putting double the air density and 1000+ cc injectors in there and get it to run like stock. The drivability and starting issues will be the same. What exactly can the stock ECU do that you can't bend an EMS around, or that hasn't already been improved upon by carefully developed standalones?

[Intropy]

And just so I'm clear and it doesn't sound like I'm bashing the flash ECU, my big crusade is for real tuning. Not for AEM vs flash ECU. I could care less what you use.

In this case and any like it, I will recommend the EMS because he:
1) has serious mods
2) is going for big power
3) doesn't know much about tuning
4) therefore needs a professional tune

I'd rather see the car get a flash ECU and go to the dyno than an AEM and wing it.

[Greg E]

If you keep the engine stock, sure. If you don't, they're the same. I give the edge to EMS for another 5-10 years because there's a support base. Try putting double the air density and 1000+ cc injectors in there and get it to run like stock. The drivability and starting issues will be the same. What exactly can the stock ECU do that you can't bend an EMS around, or that hasn't already been improved upon by carefully developed standalones?

Give it time. The stock ECU will get to those levels. It's still too new of a development.

You really want to know what the stock ECU can do that the AEM can't do and never will be able to? Drive legally on the street....

[Greg E]

Didn't know about logging on the tactrix cable, that's cool.

Comparing fuel trims to the AEM's O2 feedback is like comparing a BB gun to a cruise missile though. The feedback driver on the EMS is a configurable PID controller with two wideband inputs. A narrowband-based system is mainly for maintaining stoich (narrowbands would be inaccurate for any other purpose). The EMS has a full AFR target map (just like a fuel map) and can make corrections to each bank to maintain the target for each cell. How these per-cell trims are stored and cleared is also configurable. It's the same for boost control. With the AEM it's easy to implement things like "Don't go over 10psi if I'm in 6th gear".

I dig the flash ECU, I'm just saying... there's a reason the EMS is $1k. If they could be matched by a 14-year old re-purposed stock ECU, they should all kill themselves.

Gear based boost control is Something I'd love to implement soon. It's fairly simple. Just too busy working on other things ATM.

I figured out how to adjust the target voltage of the narrowbands. Chrome V2 will be able to adjust this for use with a WB and it wouldn't take much even to implement a table look up to change the target AFR based on any condition. Just tell me what you'd like to see and I'll make the code do it.

See unlike an AEM, I have the source code. I can implement anything given time. The hardware on the stock board is my only limitation. Something else I've briefly looked into is Ion Knock detection. Hardware wise, I don't know if I could make this work. Software-wise, it'd require a complete rewrite of the code, but it can happen.

I've already posted about my setup which implements a GM ethanol sensor to make the car a true flex fuel vehicle. The code is already written and the sensor is sitting on my coffee table. Just waiting for me to test...

[Greg E]

I'd rather see the car get a flash ECU and go to the dyno

Hans, are you reading this? :lol:

[J. Fast]

Give it time. The stock ECU will get to those levels. It's still too new of a development.

You really want to know what the stock ECU can do that the AEM can't do and never will be able to? Drive legally on the street....

You can run a standalone EMS and be street legal. In 2010 DOT passed a regulation that said all DOT registered alternative fuel vehicles Fed Tier I and II, category 3 or greater (which is ethanol, meth, propane, and etc) are emission and OBD test port exempt and street legal. A lot of people don't know that, but it true!

[Intropy]

Chrome V2 will be able to adjust this for use with a WB and it wouldn't take much even to implement a table look up to change the target AFR based on any condition. Just tell me what you'd like to see and I'll make the code do it.

If you seriously have the ability to do this on the stock ECU, I'm impressed. It sounds like a LOT of work though. You'd basically be implementing your own PID on the stock ECU hardware, and tying this into the injection controls. Is that possible?

All you need to do to get me to try one is get speed density working. ;)

[Greg E]

You can run a standalone EMS and be street legal. In 2010 DOT passed a regulation that said all DOT registered alternative fuel vehicles Fed Tier I and II, category 3 or greater (which is ethanol, meth, propane, and etc) are emission and OBD test port exempt and street legal. A lot of people don't know that, but it true!

I didn't know that! I was just hoping to get the tax break like you mentioned in your other thread. :lol: So glad there's an E85 pump within 10 minutes from here.


If you seriously have the ability to do this on the stock ECU, I'm impressed. It sounds like a LOT of work though. You'd basically be implementing your own PID on the stock ECU hardware, and tying this into the injection controls. Is that possible?

All you need to do to get me to try one is get speed density working. ;)

The mods in chrome V2 are written with a simple hex editor. The most time consuming part was learning the language & syntax. Seems I'm getting over that curve finally though! The disassembly part is never ending...

The closed loop feature of the ECU simply checks the NB voltage and compares it to half a volt before deciding which branch to step next. If you plugged in a 5V wideband sensor, then changed this value to be 2.5 volts, you're essentially doing the same thing as stock. Drop this target value and closed loop is targeting a leaner AFR thus giving you better mileage. (already been tested)

I also found the table the ECU uses to switch into open loop. Say you wanted a full autotune. First I'd extend this table so the ECU is always in closed loop. Next, I'd adjust the high/med/low trims with larger airflow switch points. Next I'd replace the target NB memory address (.5 a volt) with a static address. Moving on, the harder part is to create a sub which would have a 2D table look up which would have an RPM (or airflow) axis (hell, I could have a 3D table with both rpm and airflow like the fuel and timing maps) with various target voltages populated within. The table would populate this temporary axis with whatever conditions are met in the lookup. This wouldn't be too hard to add to the code at all to be honest.

Damn, now I got a new excuse to stay awake till 3am for a week straight....

[Jeff V.]

In 2010 DOT passed a regulation that said all DOT registered alternative fuel vehicles Fed Tier I and II, category 3 or greater (which is ethanol, meth, propane, and etc) are emission and OBD test port exempt and street legal.

DOT doesn't pass emission rules.

EPA does.

Link to relevant section of the CFR?

[J. Fast]

Link to relevant section of the CFR?

FED say's it's okay... ofcourse state's can choose to implement their own regulations but a quick Google and here's the first 4 hits... I don't have all day so...


Georgia:
Alternative Fuel Exemption

Vehicles powered by diesel fuel or that run exclusively on alternative fuels (natural gas, propane, etc.) are exempt from having an emission inspection. Georgia's Clean Air Force: Other Exemptions (http://www.cleanairforce.com/motorists/otherexemptions.php)



Nevada:
The following vehicles are exempt from emission testing; Alternative fuel vehicles Nevada Emissions Control Program (http://www.dmvnv.com/emission.htm)



Michigan:
Alternative Fuel Vehicle (AFV) Emissions Inspection Exemption
Dedicated AFVs powered by compressed natural gas, propane, electricity, or any other source as defined by the Michigan Department of Transportation are exempt from emissions inspection requirements.
Alternative Fuels and Advanced Vehicles Data Center: Alternative Fuel Vehicle (AFV) Emissions Inspection Exemption (http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/laws/law/MI/5492)



Missouri:
Alternative Fuel Vehicle (AFV) Emission Inspection Exemption
Vehicles that are powered exclusively by electricity, including low-speed vehicles; hydrogen; or fuels other than gasoline are exempt from motor vehicle emissions inspection under federal regulation are exempt from state emissions inspection requirements. (Reference House Bill 354, 2011, and Missouri Revised Statutes 643.315)
Alternative Fuels and Advanced Vehicles Data Center: Alternative Fuel Vehicle (AFV) Emission Inspection Exemption (http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/laws/law/MO/5606)



Federal Alternative Fuel Definition:
Alternative fuel is defined as compressed natural gas, propane, ethanol, or any mixture containing 85% or more ethanol (E85) with gasoline or other fuels, electricity, or any other fuels, which may include, but are not limited to, clean diesel and reformulated gasoline... Alternative fuel does not include any fuel product that contains or is treated with methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE).

[Jeff V.]

FED say's it's okay... ofcourse state's can choose to implement their own regulations but a quick Google and here's the first 4 hits... I don't have all day so...

If the 'Fed' says it's ok, it'll be in the CFR.

These alt fuel vehicle exemptions almost always have a clause stating that they must be built by a certified shop or OEM.

Just knowing how the Feds are, I find it VERY hard to believe that all you have to do is drop some corn gas in your tank and tweak your injector scaling to magically have an emissions exempt alt fuel vehicle.

There's quite a few people who swore their state-registered JDM import cars were legal too, right up until the Feds came and towed them away.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

if you run the car with a stock or evo maf for a while it should tune easily on the stock ecu. My car is not as radical as yours, but I do have ported heads, cam gears, full exhaust, intake pipes, ets fmic, DR750s, etc and the stock 99 tune with my injectors dialed in half way runs like stock.

That's the thing about the flashed ecu. It is such a good basemap. Yes, it won't make the absolutely max power right out of the box, but the car will be driveable, which I am not sure can be said for an AEM base map.

With the maf your extra displacement will naturally be mostly accounted for. Like I said it may not be completely ideal, but this isn't speed density where everything in terms of VE has to be calculated and spot on.

To tell you the truth I had enough of a nightmare with the speed density on the emanage ultimate that this feels too easy. Once I got some very basic mechanical problems on my car solved it started and ran with no bs.

[J. Fast]

If the 'Fed' says it's ok, it'll be in the CFR.

These alt fuel vehicle exemptions almost always have a clause stating that they must be built by a certified shop or OEM.

Just knowing how the Feds are, I find it VERY hard to believe that all you have to do is drop some corn gas in your tank and tweak your injector scaling to magically have an emissions exempt alt fuel vehicle.

There's quite a few people who swore their state-registered JDM import cars were legal too, right up until the Feds came and towed them away.

Nope, you fill out a VIN Verification and Vehicle Inspection Form take it to State Patrol and have them mark the "Reason For Inspection" OTHER Right next to it Write "Inspection for Change in Fuel Type". State Patorl conducts the vin inspection. You then then use an ethanol field test kit that shows ethanol content percentage and they verify the percentage as greater than 85% and sign the form. You take the VIN Verification and Vehicle Inspection Form, the title, and registration to the DMVR and request a Re-Title to AFV (AKA alternative fuel vehicle). They change the fuel type on the vehicle title from "G" (which is gas), to "T" (which is ethanol) or "P" (propane) or "V"(etc) and viola, you're vehicle becomes a registered AFV. It's really that simple.

I have helped dozens of people thru the process, seeing how I was one of the first to read the fine print and actually do it.

[J. Fast]

Last person I helped was an S2000 owner on the 24th of April.

(On 4.24.2012 @ 5:13pm) Just in time as I have emissions for the s2k this month. Stopped by the dmv today with documentation, title, insurance...never walked out of that place so happy :-D. Emissions exempt for the life of the car as long as they don't change rules..

I did not itemized everything to the exact since I already filed my taxes for the year and not using the credit.


Thanks Jeremy!

[Intropy]

The mods in chrome V2 are written with a simple hex editor. The most time consuming part was learning the language & syntax. Seems I'm getting over that curve finally though! The disassembly part is never ending...

So the guys doing this for other platforms, are they doing it by hand like this or has someone ported a C compiler or something?

[Jesters Deadd]

Has anyone used and tuned with both an AEM and flashable 98/99 ECu?

[Intropy]

Has anyone used and tuned with both an AEM and flashable 98/99 ECu?

I will if someone will send me one. :)

[Jesters Deadd]

I could hook you up. I have a for sale thread on 3si for some. :)

I am running 1000cc inj in my car on 93 octane and it idles and starts great. Is anyone running bigger injectors in their flashed ECU cars?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I could hook you up. I have a for sale thread on 3si for some. :)

I am running 1000cc inj in my car on 93 octane and it idles and starts great. Is anyone running bigger injectors in their flashed ECU cars?

that's good to know, I was thinking of moving to an 880cc injector so I could dabble with some e85 at some point. It will be neat if we have switchable maps at some point and you could just flip a switch and go from 93 to e85.

[Intropy]

I could hook you up. I have a for sale thread on 3si for some. :)

I am running 1000cc inj in my car on 93 octane and it idles and starts great. Is anyone running bigger injectors in their flashed ECU cars?

Hook me up as in free loaner, or as in I buy one? ;)

I'm also on 1000cc but e85 so I'm moving a lot of fuel. I would have to put a MAF on so couldn't make big power, but could definitely check tunability / drivability.

[Greg E]

So the guys doing this for other platforms, are they doing it by hand like this or has someone ported a C compiler or something?

To be honest I don't think so. I think I'm the only nut job with the free time to do it this way.


Has anyone used and tuned with both an AEM and flashable 98/99 ECu?
Yes

[Tigchamp]

Ok so we have seven pages of talking, are there any dyno graphs to show just how wonderful a chromed ecu is.
There are hundreds of AEM ones out there.
Jeff

[Gearheadvr4]

Agreed some dyno runs would be nice to see.

Found this one, http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=/watch?v=0Wf9JlWnAxA&v=0Wf9JlWnAxA&gl=US


Also I would like to here some first hand knowledge of somebody using both ways to tune and what they eventually chose and why.

[Intropy]

A dyno graph wouldn't really tell you much. Anything can do WOT, it's the little stuff that makes a difference.

Actually it would be really cool to do a side-by-side comparison. I feel like I'd need to switch my EMS calibration to MAF-based to make it fair (speed density is harder to get right).

[Intropy]

Also I would like to here some first hand knowledge of somebody using both ways to tune and what they eventually chose and why.

The thing that I can't quite wrap my head around is how you tune ignition timing with a chromed ECU. With an AEM, I can lock a cell on the dyno and watch instantaneous torque as I add timing. When it stops going up, I stop (and usually back off some more, just to be safe). I don't know what the equivalent method would be. You could just do pulls and try to piece it together from logs (did the car make more power this time) but that seems really time consuming.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I originally planned to run the emanage ultimate along with the flashed ecu so I could do live tuning, but unfortunately I couldn't give this a chance as my tax bill forced me to sell off extra parts.

[Greg E]

The thing that I can't quite wrap my head around is how you tune ignition timing with a chromed ECU. With an AEM, I can lock a cell on the dyno and watch instantaneous torque as I add timing. When it stops going up, I stop (and usually back off some more, just to be safe). I don't know what the equivalent method would be. You could just do pulls and try to piece it together from logs (did the car make more power this time) but that seems really time consuming.

That's exactly what I do. Do a run, pull over, import the log into VDR, adjust where needed. Usually with-in 5 pulls I find that sweet spot with fuel & timing.

[Greg E]

Also I would like to here some first hand knowledge of somebody using both ways to tune and what they eventually chose and why.

Maybe my opinion doesn't qualify as I haven't tuned any record setting AEM cars but here was my take:


In terms of how much better it works is just an opinion debate. I don't see the stock ECU breaking any new HP records but I do see it becoming more popular once more features become released. About the only serious advantages the stock ECU holds over the AEM are cost and OBD2 compatibility.

Jeff hit it on the head about why I prefer a flash ECU over an AEM (aside from the fact AEM doesn't make a plug and play ECU for the 98/99s).


I'm not saying the AEM isn't a damned nice piece of equipment. But there is precious little that makes it 'better' than the OEM ECU, and quite a bit that makes it worse. Starting off with Mitsubishi's factory developed calibrations will put you at a drivability point where you're far ahead of all but the absolute best AEM tuners out there, and you're getting there for a fraction of the price.

[Intropy]

That's exactly what I do. Do a run, pull over, import the log into VDR, adjust where needed. Usually with-in 5 pulls I find that sweet spot with fuel & timing.

Maybe I'm just slow to come around but I can't bring myself to trust this virtual dyno stuff. I don't really care about accuracy (I think Trevor showed it's not very accurate) but is it at least consistent?

[Greg E]

Maybe I'm just slow to come around but I can't bring myself to trust this virtual dyno stuff. I don't really care about accuracy (I think Trevor showed it's not very accurate) but is it at least consistent?

The EVO guys rave about it and have used it for years. While the numbers may not be exact (i have a good theory about why this is), it's the change in the curve that I look for. "Did 2 degrees here improve the line in this area or not?" It is accurate enough for that assuming you use the exact same stretch of road to tune on. I even tell my customers to not get hung up on the numbers. In fact, in my thread about the billet dr650's in my old 99, I think I even posted the same thing.

Over the winter I came up with an airflow & AFR HP calculator setup for tuning cars. It should be much more accurate numbers-wise. According to the numbers (assuming data from my stock MAF is accurate) my completely stock car should be putting down 284whp (which seems high for just a boost increase with more timing and less rich tune). I had plans to head up to GZP and dyno the car a few weeks ago to see if this is accurate, but Hans had to bail. Even if the car doesn't put down the numbers due to a variance in load the dyno puts the car thru, the change in airflow should be reflected in the calculator. Its my hopes the numbers will be close!

[ChargerX3]

I should be hitting the Dyno early next month. The plan is to do stock pulls with the factory ecu and maf. Next, swap out the ecu for the 99VR4, make some corrections do a pull. Then finish it off with a Evo MAF swap.