94 twin turbo stealth wont start

[Ok3skid1]

I just recently put my engine back together with the heads jrod (from Oklahoma)sold me. Only thing i did different when i put it back together was vac reduction. This was done following the wiki-how section of the forum.

I have fuel and fire for sure. She comes to life for about 5 seconds at about 300 rpm and just falls flat on her face. I can push the pedal in and everything, completely un-responsive.

When it falls flat on its face, it cough's out of the exhaust side.

I cant seem to find my issue... putting the motor back together was one thing but trouble shooting what i have going on is different for me. I have never heard a motor do this before.

Thx for any help

[CoreyB]

Recheck your mechanical timing first.

[Ok3skid1]

Recheck your mechanical timing first.
I was a tooth off on the front cam. The other 3 cams were perfect.

[CoreyB]

Well the front cam is a exhaust cam, might explaint the coughing out the exhaust. Should still run though. I would suggest a perssure test on the intake, did you make sure the MAF is plugged in ? Also a compression test would be a good idea.

[Ok3skid1]

Well the front cam is a exhaust cam, might explaint the coughing out the exhaust. Should still run though. I would suggest a perssure test on the intake, did you make sure the MAF is plugged in ? Also a compression test would be a good idea.

I have no had much time to really do anything but check what i have done. Everything is plugged in but the front o2 sensor.
Oklahoma just had there statewide meet so i had to leave my car for 2 days. Ill read up how to do compression testing and do it.

[CoreyB]

Why is the front O2 not connected, I believe it needs to be hooked up to run, not sure though maybe it would just run bad.

[Ok3skid1]

Why is the front O2 not connected, I believe it needs to be hooked up to run, not sure though maybe it would just run bad.

I dont even have all my exhaust hooked up but i was under the impression turbo cars dont need back preasure. Ill get that sensor hooked back up but i dont think it would keep it from starting.

[ChargerX3]

Plug in the front o2.

[R/T93]

my front 02 reads 0.00 volts at all times (its even new something else is wrong). Having a bad front 02 wont make your car not start.....

[Ok3skid1]

my front 02 reads 0.00 volts at all times (its even new something else is wrong). Having a bad front 02 wont make your car not start.....

Thats what i thought. Thats why its not a main concern. Ill keep looking around and see what i can do.

[R/T93]

crank or cam anlge sensor maybe, check the wires to the sensors and the plugs. My car would slightly start/stutter for a couple seconds when my crank angle sensor went bad. I thought I was out of gas or it was a fuel pump issue cuz it would kind of start.

[Ok3skid1]

crank or cam anlge sensor maybe, check the wires to the sensors and the plugs. My car would slightly start/stutter for a couple seconds when my crank angle sensor went bad. I thought I was out of gas or it was a fuel pump issue cuz it would kind of start.

Hmm... Your not the first person to suggest these sensors.

theres only one way for these sensors to go in right? I made sure both were plugged in and bolted down nice and tight. I will recheck first thing in the morning

[Ok3skid1]

So i got my car trailered down to a mechanic about 2 days ago and come to find out i was 2 teeth off on the crank.... bla!!! such a noob mistake but not bad seeing as it was the first time i have ever timed 6g72 lol. Cams were on perfect.

Now we run into a flooding problem anyone have a suggestion on it.

I was thinking it could be from the crank being off 2 teeth and trying to start it? But thats just my guess

[Austin@STM]

If timing is off, you may not have had compression, which would prevent it from running right. Also check all your spark plug wires and make sure they are correct.

What do you mean by a flooding issue?

[CoreyB]

Recheck your mechanical timing first.

First reply lol. Now that its right and your flooding recheck for spark, if you have spark check compression. Two teeth on the crank may be enough to touch off some valves.

[Ok3skid1]

We did a compression check we are showing 150 lbs across the bored. i know were suppose to show 170 to 180 but the car has not ran in awhile...

She will start and idle up to about 2 grand and as she idles back down she coughs out and dies...

Now my mechanic said it was flooded... im going to assume when i was cranking it with it out of time like that. i was getting more gas then i could burn. So i am almost certain i am the one who caused the flooding...

[CoreyB]

Replace the pugs and you should be set, provided you do actually still have spark. Check it with a new plug or a screwdriver first.

[Ok3skid1]

Replace the pugs and you should be set, provided you do actually still have spark. Check it with a new plug or a screwdriver first.

I can do that... ill let you guys know what goes down...

[Austin@STM]

Check again that there are no vaccuum leaks, if its idling hig then there is probably air getting in there somewhere, or your throttle cable or BISS screw are not adjusted properly.

[Hans@GZP]

Do the fuel pump relay bypass that's on stealth316.com

[stealthee]

Assuming its TT 150psi of compression is perfect.

[RealMcCoy]

Do the fuel pump relay bypass that's on stealth316.com

^^^If it's starting up and dieing off within a few seconds, I'd check out Hans' suggestion. It could be losing power to the pump when it tries to switch to resisted mode.

[Ok3skid1]

Ill check it!

Im going back up to the shop tomorrow. Ill let you guys know what i had to do.

[Ok3skid1]

Im stumped! And so is my mechanic lol!

We checked mechanical timing it was still on.
We checked the compression again on all 6 cyl... we got 150 lbs on each cyl.
we checked fuel pressure 45 lbs on that
we did the relay bypass for the fuel pump
checked and changed spark plugs
rechecked vac reduction perfect
We also checked the cam shafts to see if they were in the right spots...they were right

Although when we checked the cam shafts i did have a roller rocker off the lifter on piston 3 but i was still reading 150 lbs of compression on piston 3.

spark plugs 3 and 5 are soaked with gas and 1 was a little black. the rear sparkies how ever were pretty fouled up...

Like i said i did change plugs... there new so i have not checked to see what the new plugs in the back look like.

Other than that im stumped

With my limited knowledge i just dont what to check. im up for doing anything to the car to get her running and down the road

[stealthee]

Is the reluctor wheel (the chinese star on the backside of the crank pulley) in the correct placement? If its off, you will still get spark, but it will spark at the wrong time.

[Ok3skid1]

Is the reluctor wheel (the chinese star on the backside of the crank pulley) in the correct placement? If its off, you will still get spark, but it will spark at the wrong time.

you know now that i think about it we did replace that. Mine got messed up pretty good when i jumped time.

My mechanic thinks one yes it could be off or its on backwards

Stealthee you got a diagram or something i can print out and take down to the shop tomorrow?

[stealthee]

I do not, its just something that popped into my head. When you remove the crank pulley there should be an indent for the set pin to sit in. This actually happens more often than you might think.

[Ok3skid1]

I do not, its just something that popped into my head. When you remove the crank pulley there should be an indent for the set pin to sit in. This actually happens more often than you might think.

Well crap! I guess ill start pulling the timing stuff back off... We will see what happens ill let you guys know what happens

[RealMcCoy]

There's a notch in the signal wheel that lines up with the mark on the gear:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k252/lnmccoy/gear2.jpg

[Ok3skid1]

There's a notch in the signal wheel that lines up with the mark on the gear:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k252/lnmccoy/gear2.jpg

Can that little wheel really cause my car to start and just fall right on its face like its doing?

[stealthee]

Yes. It basically can change your ignition timing if its incorrect. It passes past the crank sensors magnet telling it the position of the crank.

[Ok3skid1]

Yes. It basically can change your ignition timing if its incorrect. It passes past the crank sensors magnet telling it the position of the crank.

Makes since! Now is it possible to put this one backwards... my mechanic wants to know?

[CoreyB]

When it starts does it seem to run on all cylinders ? Does it even start anymore ? Who is your mechanic, is he familiar with the 3s ?

[Ok3skid1]

When it starts does it seem to run on all cylinders ? Does it even start anymore ? Who is your mechanic, is he familiar with the 3s ?

Ya it runs smooth and then it just dies. Yes with a little bit of cranking it will start again
I really need to get a video up. it would help so much

And His name is Kevin out of Pawnee Oklahoma. He actually owns a 92 Twin turbo stealth. He just recently got it put back together for his daughter.

[CoreyB]

I doubt the plate being wrong if it starts smooth. Even though its rare for your year, pull the ECU and look for leaky capacitors. There are three of them that are cylinder shaped. The seal on the bottom gives way and it leaks electrolyt on the board causing shorts. Also I may have suggested this already but try with the MAF unplugged. Sorry If I already had you try that.

[RealMcCoy]

Have you confirmed it has fuel pressure at the point it dies?

Have you tried starting it with the airflow sensor disconnected?

[Ok3skid1]

I doubt the plate being wrong if it starts smooth. Even though its rare for your year, pull the ECU and look for leaky capacitors. There are three of them that are cylinder shaped. The seal on the bottom gives way and it leaks electrolyt on the board causing shorts. Also I may have suggested this already but try with the MAF unplugged. Sorry If I already had you try that.

Kevin seems to believe its the plate him self...

I did how ever try starting the car with the MAF out and it did the same thing... came alive for a few and died.

Its hard to tell if the car is coming alive smoothly because i still have no exhaust and its pretty loud... i guess before i take the timing back off i could check the ecu

[CoreyB]

Wish I was there to help. Its hard to troubleshoot over the net. Listen to anything RealMcCoy says, well because hes the real MCcoy.

[Ok3skid1]

Have you confirmed it has fuel pressure at the point it dies?

Have you tried starting it with the airflow sensor disconnected?

No confirmation on fuel pressure when it dies.

yes i have tried with the airflow sensor disconnected. It really made no dif.

[colt45 gto]

by the sounds of it, he has spark and way toomuch fuel, from our convo on fb.

it really sounds like its flooding.

stock injectors the whole 9 yards.

[RealMcCoy]

You really need to check fuel pressure at this point... And get some scan data. If it's truly flooding, it either has too much fuel pressure, the the ECU is injecting excess fuel due to a coolant temp sensor issue or other bad input, or the injectors themselves have an issue.

[Ok3skid1]

I hate to admit this but i think everyone one of you guys said to check if i were firing...

Colt45gto and I were talking on fb when i told him cylinder1 spark plug was black and 3 and 5 were just wet.... no spark in 3 and 5...

So im going to check my coils and ptu.

[Ok3skid1]

So i pulled both the coils and the ptu and both were reading good according to Stealth316.

At this point im lost... What would cause me to not fire on 3,5,2 and 4?

Im gonna go look at all connections make sure there good but in the mean time any advise wouldl be great thx

[Ok3skid1]

Note:i just checked my ecu and it looks good!

[CoreyB]

Check the pulse signal from the ECU to the PTU. It is a 5v pulse and goes to the three pins on the PTU you aplied the positive of the 1.5v test you did for testing the PTU. The three closest to the middle on the big plug of the PTU.

[Ok3skid1]

3 tests were taken today on the coils ptu and ecu...

Kevin Concluded that the Ecu was my problem. The ptu and coils were both showing good. All 3 coils were even sparking. if that makes any since...

[GRSHOPR]

You said at the beginning of this thread that you did a vacuum reduction, correct?? Did you also eliminate the FPR solenoid? Have you double checked all your remaining vac lines are tight and run correctly?

[colt45 gto]

get the ecu tested. theres a guy on here that does them.

[Ok3skid1]

get the ecu tested. theres a guy on here that does them.

I will i want a second opinion before i settle on my ecu being fried

[CoreyB]

If you have a pulse signal from the cam sensor and crank but no pulse to the PTU you dont need a second opinion unless somehow all three wires from the ECU to the PTU broke,.

[Ok3skid1]

If you have a pulse signal from the cam sensor and crank but no pulse to the PTU you dont need a second opinion unless somehow all three wires from the ECU to the PTU broke,.

Right... i got a good deal on a 94 hybrid ecu im going to install it as soon as it get in.

Im almost certain i know why im previous ecu failed in the first place. just way to embarrassed to say why haha!

[stealthee]

Its better that you post up what you think it is so someone else doesnt make the same mistake.

[Ok3skid1]

Its better that you post up what you think it is so someone else doesnt make the same mistake.

:o if you insist.
:o When I was hooking up my starter i placed my negative and positive terminals ip on the 2 posts that could clearly be seen.

:o After getting everything bolted on i placed the positive terminal back on and the starter. The starter just started spinning with the key off and everything... So i decided to unplug and swap thinking i had it on backwards... HAHA wrong when i swapped and plugged my pos. terminal back i saw a bunch of pretty colors and it melted my positive terminal on my battery. Little did i know or even remember the negative cable grounded on the transmission. Honest mistake... At this point i immediately pulled my starter and had it tested. It was still good but I think the sudden shock from the wrong grounding caused my ecu to pop. :mad::mad:

[stealthee]

I doubt that would pop your ECU. There are fuses that would pop protecting the ECU.

[Ok3skid1]

I doubt that would pop your ECU. There are fuses that would pop protecting the ECU.

See thats what Kevin said 2. after checking all the fuses, the ptu and coils the last thing to check would be the ECU. He said the only thing not getting a good test was the ECU

[steve]

I doubt that would pop your ECU. There are fuses that would pop protecting the ECU.

There are fuses but none that will protect the ECU from the battery being hooked up backwards. The MFI fuse is 10A (IIRC) and the diodes on the ECU power input blow about the same time as the fuse. They don't however isolate the rest of the board from the reverse polarity just short and blow the fuse so there are other parts of the board that get reversed biased and can be damaged too.

[Ok3skid1]

There are fuses but none that will protect the ECU from the battery being hooked up backwards. The MFI fuse is 10A (IIRC) and the diodes on the ECU power input blow about the same time as the fuse. They don't however isolate the rest of the board from the reverse polarity just short and blow the fuse so there are other parts of the board that get reversed biased and can be damaged too.

Thats good to know!

I have an ecu im looking at but sadly im broke till thursday

[stealthee]

There are fuses but none that will protect the ECU from the battery being hooked up backwards. The MFI fuse is 10A (IIRC) and the diodes on the ECU power input blow about the same time as the fuse. They don't however isolate the rest of the board from the reverse polarity just short and blow the fuse so there are other parts of the board that get reversed biased and can be damaged too.

I have seen SEVERAL times where people hook the battery up backwards and it blows the battery fusible link. I'd say thats good enough to protect the ECU.

[R/T93]

I have seen SEVERAL times where people hook the battery up backwards and it blows the battery fusible link. I'd say thats good enough to protect the ECU.

/guilty.

Rebuilt an alternator thinking that was the problem, too.....

[Ok3skid1]

i didnt hook the battery up wrong i hooked the starter up wrong lol.

I guess in the long run it all does the same thing. I just hope its the Ecu cause i ended up selling some stuff and buying it today.

According to the tests everything was good but the ecu. all coils were getting spark through a pulse test and the ptu was showing good through the ohms meter. These tests were performed following stealth-316.

You guys have me freaking worried. that its not going to be an ECU

[steve]

Sorry, I misunderstood you. Just shorting the battery at the starter shouldn't damage the ECU.

[Ok3skid1]

can anyone help me find a picture of the cam shaft reluctor wheel.

I think thats my problem for sure. It was not the ecu... >_>!

[RealMcCoy]

Does the shop you have working on it own a lab scope..? I'd like to see a dual channel screenshot of the cam and crank signals. With that I could quickly tell you if you need to look elsewhere, or if you're on the right track.

[stealthee]

can anyone help me find a picture of the cam shaft reluctor wheel.

I think thats my problem for sure. It was not the ecu... >_>!

Told ya it wasn't the ECU. ;) At least you could turn right back around and resell the one you bought.

Do you want a pic of the reluctor on the cam gear or on the crank?

[Ok3skid1]

i need onefor the cam... we got to looking at the sensors when he noticed the wheel itself sitting in front of the sensor not behind it.

Is there a spacer for the the wheel to push it back some or will it just mount behind the sensor? were not really sure since the his car is a 92 and his sensor is on the other side of the motor

[stealthee]

If its a 92 and you are using the large cam sensor on the rear head intake cam then there is no need for a reluctor wheel.

[RealMcCoy]

i need onefor the cam... we got to looking at the sensors when he noticed the wheel itself sitting in front of the sensor not behind it.

Is there a spacer for the the wheel to push it back some or will it just mount behind the sensor? were not really sure since the his car is a 92 and his sensor is on the other side of the motor

After reading this two or three time in total confusion, I think I finally got what you meant... You're saying that your mechanics car is a 92, so you have nothing to compare yours to..?

Take a pic of your cam sensor and post it... Unless you figure out before then that it's bolted on upside down.

[stealthee]

Ohhhh, yeah that makes more sense now.

[Ok3skid1]

i am sorry for the confusion guys! i was working on 3 hours of sleep yesterday.

Yes my mechanic has a 92 stealth TT and I have a 94 TT Stealth. I actually have Silver_bullets old Pearle Yellow Stealth. If his name rings a bell to any?!?!

Anyways ill get some pics up for sure. Hopefully this Thread will help those who run into the same problem for sure!

[Ok3skid1]

It was indeed the cam relucter wheel! Kev reset the wheel and timing and she fired up with no problem!

[stealthee]

So I was half right. :p

[Ok3skid1]

So I was half right. :p

You were just wrong end of the motor!

Lol! Not driving it yet... for some reason my water pump is leaking something fierce! Its brand new from cherry hill Mitsi. Im wandering if its bad?

[steve]

for some reason my water pump is leaking something fierce! Its brand new from cherry hill Mitsi. Im wandering if its bad?

Perhaps the o-ring wandered, I'm wondering

[Ok3skid1]

who knows i ordered a ring and gasket for the water pump

[steve]

I've found corrosion on the waterpipe where the o-ring goes when I change the pumps on all my cars. I make a point of cleaning them up with a scotchguard pad before putting the new o-ring on and lubricate it with antifreeze before installing the pump so it slips easily into the pump.

[Ok3skid1]

ok here i am again with more problems! My car runs and drives but it runs like some serious doo doo!!! My alternator was fuzzed when we got it running. started smoking real bad. so i replaced it with brand new altima. Not a cheap alternator. So i get it installed and still no charge. I checked all my cables running to the battery to the alternator. I only found 2 grounds. the battery ground and the ground to the starter. The battery ground was loose so i tightened it up and i saw a big diff. in charge. I held 13 volts constant over 1 day period. The next day it showed 11 and slowly decreased overtime.

Thats my biggest issue so far but other then that i have a boost leak on the rear turbo pipe that needs to be fixed.

Any suggestions on the alternator issue?

[steve]

Have you check the alternator fuses yet? There is the main 120A fusible link #1 bolted down in the main fusebox and the 15A #11 in the junction box that provides the starting current for the field initally.

[Ok3skid1]

yes fuses have been checked. i did replace the 120 amp fuse that was bolted but not sure about the other one. ill let you know what i find out

[steve]

Get out your voltmeter and check the voltage at the battery and at the B+ stud on the alternator.
At idle you should see at least 13.6v if the alternator is charging. If you see that at the battery it should be working, if you don't check the alternator stud to make sure the wiring and fuse are good.