toyota finds a "memo" on sudden acceleration

[Mikes2nd]

whoops...

Of course they are like "this was internal!, we don't need to show you anything!"...


CNN reveals Toyota memo that purports to show sudden acceleration caused by electronics (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/02/cnn-reveals-toyota-memo-that-purports-to-show-sudden-acceleratio/#continued)

[ictponder]

Toyota insists the document refers to pre-production testing of the company's adaptive cruise control system on a version of the Lexus LS 460 sold in Japan and Europe. A Toyota electrical engineer told CNN that the cruise control system acted exactly as it should when they input an abnormal signal, and that the test resulted in further refinements to the system.

Looks like everything was tested and fixed in pre-production. This is probably nothing out of the ordinary.

[Valhallaz]

And yet, in no instance was any actual incident found to be due to a failure in electronics. How hard is it to hit the brakes, anyway?
A witch hunt, pure and simple. Can't have Toyota outselling GM, now can we? Toyota was simply a target of opportunity.

[DocWalt]

And yet, in no instance was any actual incident found to be due to a failure in electronics. How hard is it to hit the brakes, anyway?
A witch hunt, pure and simple. Can't have Toyota outselling GM, now can we? Toyota was simply a target of opportunity.

Just like Audi was in the 80's. The media is pathetic.

[i3igpete]

How did they get this:

Toyota engineers found an electrical problem that caused sudden unintended acceleration in a pre-production test vehicle.

From this:

A Toyota electrical engineer told CNN that the cruise control system acted exactly as it should when they input an abnormal signal,

:BangHead:

[Jeff V.]

Can't have Toyota outselling GM, now can we? Toyota was simply a target of opportunity.

If you're trying to paint this is some sort of government conspiracy, you need to get your head out of your ass.

The gov had NASA look at Toyota's ECU systems and NASA found absolutely no fault in Toyota's code or hardware.

Toyota recall investigation: NASA says electronics are not to blame - CSMonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2011/0208/Toyota-recall-investigation-NASA-says-electronics-are-not-to-blame)

[AdamVR4]

How did they get this:


From this:


:BangHead:

Wow. Fucking idiots run this country.

[i3igpete]

the pen is truly mightier than the sword. or in this case, a team of PhD's that do rocket science.

[Jeff V.]

Wow. Fucking idiots run this country.

When did CNN get put in charge? :confused:

[Valhallaz]

If you're trying to paint this is some sort of government conspiracy, you need to get your head out of your ass.

The gov had NASA look at Toyota's ECU systems and NASA found absolutely no fault in Toyota's code or hardware.

Toyota recall investigation: NASA says electronics are not to blame - CSMonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2011/0208/Toyota-recall-investigation-NASA-says-electronics-are-not-to-blame)

How much was Toyota fined again, when there was no evidence their cars were at fault? And by whom? CNN?
And, who, exactly, on testing, has found Toyota's electronics at fault?

As typical for the op, this thread is pure troll.

Edit: My original comment on not competing with GM was tongue in cheek, the rest, not so much...

[AdamVR4]

When did CNN get put in charge? :confused:

They're not, but they have a great deal of influence.

And when I said that, I wasn't exactly thinking about CNN (or Obama)... It just seems like every person in this country that has influence/power...... Shouldn't.

[terrets]

How much was Toyota fined again, when there was no evidence their cars were at fault? And by whom? CNN?
And, who, exactly, on testing, has found Toyota's electronics at fault?

As typical for the op, this thread is pure troll.

Edit: My original comment on not competing with GM was tongue in cheek, the rest, not so much...

Always trolling..

Anyways, how do you propose we test every single possible electrical signal being exchanged in their ECU's? Its simple, its impossible. (Well not impossible but it would take so much computing power and time that we dont have..)

Also, please enlighten me with your theory as to what happened.. :). If Im not mistaken, I thought there were reports that the drivers couldnt turn off the ignition or brake? (Which doesnt really make since but /shrug)

[Valhallaz]

Anyways, how do you propose we test every single possible electrical signal being exchanged in their ECU's? Its simple, its impossible. (Well not impossible but it would take so much computing power and time that we dont have..)

That would be nonsense. FAR more complicated systems are thoroughly tested daily. You're suggesting NASA can't fathom the vast complexity of an ECU, and just threw up their hands in dispair, and had to guess? They had all the time they needed. And they certainly had all the computing power they needed. It's not rocket science.


Also, please enlighten me with your theory as to what happened.. :).

Driver error. It happens daily, and who hasn't seen it up close? And in at least one notable case, seeking 15 minutes of fame and a settlement...


If Im not mistaken, I thought there were reports that the drivers couldnt turn off the ignition or brake?

If it can't be duplicated in extensive testing, it's the least likely answer, not the most. Suggesting that the ECU made the engine race, the ignition switch freeze up and the brakes fail at the same time, in numerous cases, defies logic. Levying a huge fine on such an assumption is unreasonable, to put it mildly...


(Which doesnt really make since but /shrug)

Correct, it doesn't make sense. So you're saying let's just assume that doesn't matter...

[Jeff V.]

Levying a huge fine on such an assumption is unreasonable, to put it mildly...

NHTSA did not levy a huge fine based on that 'assumption'. Toyota was fined over failing to notify NHTSA about defective pedals for FOUR YEARS.

The memo mentioned in the OP was (incorrectly) referring to electronic issues, issues which have long since been proven to not be at fault.

The fine was for defective pedals and floor mat entrapment, which was proven to have caused at least two accidents. Toyota wasn't so much fined for that in and of itself, but because they knew and covered it up.

At least try to make an effort to keep up with the threads of the story, would you?

[Valhallaz]

NHTSA did not levy a huge fine based on that 'assumption'. Toyota was fined over failing to notify NHTSA about defective pedals for FOUR YEARS.

The memo mentioned in the OP was (incorrectly) referring to electronic issues, issues which have long since been proven to not be at fault.

The fine was for defective pedals and floor mat entrapment, which was proven to have caused at least two accidents. Toyota wasn't so much fined for that in and of itself, but because they knew and covered it up.

At least try to make an effort to keep up with the threads of the story, would you?

You are correct. My mistake.

You can crawl out of my ass now. The post I was replying to made no mention of floor mat problems. Nor did the op's original post.

If you're suggesting that this thread is about Toyota's pedal problem, you haven't been paying attention.

[terrets]

That would be nonsense. FAR more complicated systems are thoroughly tested daily. You're suggesting NASA can't fathom the vast complexity of an ECU, and just threw up their hands in dispair, and had to guess? They had all the time they needed. And they certainly had all the computing power they needed. It's not rocket science.



Driver error. It happens daily, and who hasn't seen it up close? And in at least one notable case, seeking 15 minutes of fame and a settlement...



If it can't be duplicated in extensive testing, it's the least likely answer, not the most. Suggesting that the ECU made the engine race, the ignition switch freeze up and the brakes fail at the same time, in numerous cases, defies logic. Levying a huge fine on such an assumption is unreasonable, to put it mildly...



Correct, it doesn't make sense. So you're saying let's just assume that doesn't matter...

Just because they are tested thoroughly does not mean that they have tested every possible outcome. Its just not doable. Even for NASA..And a big ole yes for suggesting that NASA can not fully and completely understand. Why? Because there will always be that random little signal that no one understands how or why it has come into existance or done what it has done.. As I understand, we still dont completely understand electricity..Is this not true?

I wont argue with driver error but still whos dumb enough to floor it and crash? Wait, dont answer that. Hahaha

Its not about defying logic, its a computer. For us it may be "logical" for the throttle to shut off, for the computer it may be logical for it to be floored. (See how I used the quotes only on the us side of the sentence :)). Is the computer going to know the difference between throttle on or throttle off? I think not. Ill say it again, its a computer. They are no where near perfect, especially with so many different ways for them to interact and interfere with even its own signals.

Just because it doesnt make sense, it certainly doesnt mean thats not what happened. Back to my real point, its a computer. Its just that it would be the worst fail safe in the world if thats how it was programmed. Its completely possible that this was the failsafe and the programmer decided to accidentally have a signal 1 instead of 0. Will we ever know, probably not..








But I suppose you are right about Toyota getting fined, its not really fair(As long as its more than the reason Jeff said).. But yet, should BP still be fined even though the oil is "gone"?

And yet who has proved it was driver error?.........

(This is fun) :)

[ictponder]

Last night my gas pedal got stuck WIDE OPEN on a new floor mat protector I put in. It made me think of this thread.

[Valhallaz]

Yeah, you may be right. My degree in electronics engineering hardly qualifies me to 2nd guess you on such matters.

And please elaborate on the not understanding electricity thing. I'm all ears...

[Valhallaz]

Last night my gas pedal got stuck WIDE OPEN on a new floor mat protector I put in. It made me think of this thread.

And I bet your brakes didn't work, and the ignition froze. Floor mats can be bastards, huh? :p

[stealthee]

And yet who has proved it was driver error?.........

Report: Toyota Acceleration Woes Caused by Driver Error - U.S. News Rankings and Reviews (http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/100714-Report-Toyota-Acceleration-Woes-Caused-by-Driver-Error/)
NHTSA Blames Driver Error For Toyota Unintended Acceleration | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/07/breaking-nhtsa-blames-driver-error-for-toyota-unintended-acceleration/)
Drivers again faulted over Toyota acceleration - Business - Autos - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46045551/ns/business-autos/t/drivers-again-faulted-over-toyota-acceleration/)

There are many more articles if you choose to look for them.

I have had floor mats bunch up on me and cause the gas pedal to stick. You know how I avoided an accident? I hit the brakes.

[terrets]

Yeah, you may be right. My degree in electronics engineering hardly qualifies me to 2nd guess you on such matters.

And please elaborate on the not understanding electricity thing. I'm all ears...

I thought there were still things that electricity has done that we do not understand.. And its not just about the electronics, its about programming too..

What Im catching is that your saying all these electronics are perfect...

[Valhallaz]

I thought there were still things that electricity has done that we do not understand.. And its not just about the electronics, its about programming too..

What Im catching is that your saying all these electronics are perfect...

No. I'm saying that testing them is far from impossible, as you claim. NASA absolutely has the technology and the brainpower to determine if the ECU can malfunction as it is claimed to have malfunctioned. They say it won't. You say otherwise.

I'll go with the conclusion NASA has reported. Neither the programming nor the physical circuit is beyond comprehension. As computers go, ECU's are pretty basic.

[terrets]

Didnt know NASA tested it, I thought you were talking about their own electronics..

See but I still think it impossible to test every possibility.. And nothing will change my mind on that..

[j2k4]

See but I still think it impossible to test every possibility.. And nothing will change my mind on that..

But Tret - if you "think it impossible" to "test every possibility", how can you fix guilt to Toyota?

If you "think it impossible", NASA'a testing doesn't hold water, either. :wink:

[terrets]

Im not saying fix guilt to Toyota. Sorry that wasnt really my point. I think I was just arguing that it is completely possible that the electronics were at fault. Just looking for fun I suppose.. I dont really pay attention to the world around me, but did Toyota get fined for the specific reason of their ECUs being faulty?

Also, they really should have had MIT test the ECUs.



No NASA's testing does not hold water :) But it is true that they did not prove it was the ECU's fault but it does not eliminate the possibility.

[j2k4]

Im not saying fix guilt to Toyota. Sorry that wasnt really my point. I think I was just arguing that it is completely possible that the electronics were at fault. Just looking for fun I suppose.. I dont really pay attention to the world around me, but did Toyota get fined for the specific reason of their ECUs being faulty?

Also, they really should have had MIT test the ECUs.

No NASA's testing does not hold water :) But it is true that they did not prove it was the ECU's fault but it does not eliminate the possibility.


Tret - if it's impossible for NASA, it's impossible for MIT.

There's only one kind of "impossible", and that's the impossible kind. :)

[terrets]

Gir, fine, improbable. :p

I suppose their computers have got to be pretty damn complex. Along with all the calculations done.