Let's talk coilovers

[B-Man]

I haven't seen a general coilover thread, so let's do it. I'm looking for a thread similar to the 19T variant thread to get opinions and real world data if available. Let's keep it to 3S specific for now then maybe get into the Evo setups with the Supercar Adapters.

links are just for example, not necessarily cheapest

Tein:
Flex: Tein Flex AWD - Suspension - Pampena Motorsports (http://store.pampenamotorsports.com/suspension/tein-flex-awd.html)
Spring Rate (F): 671lbs/in (12kgf/mm)
Spring Rate Adj Range (R): +2.0~-2.0lbs/in (112~-112kgf/mm)
Spring Rate (R): 336lbs/in (6kgf/mm)
Spring Rate Adj Range (F): +4.0~-2.0lbs/in (224~-112kgf/mm)

Benefits:EDFC, 16-Way adjustable, Spring compression/ride height separate

Cost: Expensive (comparatively)

Ksport
Couple different versions:
Kontrol Pro: KSport Kontrol Pro Damper System Coilovers - Suspension - Pampena Motorsports (http://store.pampenamotorsports.com/suspension/ksport-kontrol-pro-damper-system-coilovers.html)
GT Pro: KSport GT Pro Damper System Coilovers - Suspension - Pampena Motorsports (http://store.pampenamotorsports.com/suspension/ksport-gt-pro-damper-system-coilovers.html)
SPRING RATES:
Front: 8.7kg
Rear: 7.2kg

Benefits: Cheap, 36-Way adjustable, 1-year warranty

Cost: Leak/quality (fixed in newest revision?), QC and build variations

Megans
Supercar Engineering (http://supercar-engineering.com/sc2/product_info.php?cPath=10&products_id=271)
SPRING RATES:
F: 62mm ID; 180mm length; 12 kg/mm (671lbs/in)
R: 62mm ID; 200mm length; 8 kg/mm (447lbs/in)

DAMPER SPECS:
F: 120mm stroke; 260mm length; M2 valving code
R: 115mm stroke; 240mm length; A1 valving code

Benefits: Cheap, 32-way adjustable, 1-year warranty

Cost: any?

Ninja Performance
http://www.ninjaperformance.com/product_info.php?cPath=368_49400040&products_id=2201&osCsid=bg0k0fmc9vh6k73v4kes37jmg2
Spring Rate: Front 670lb/in(12kg) / Rear 447lb/in(8kg)

Benefits: Cheap, 32-way adjustable

Cost: any?

KW Variant 3
Supercar Engineering (http://supercar-engineering.com/sc2/product_info.php?cPath=10&products_id=272)

Benefits: Compression/rebound seperate, Spring compression/ride height separate, 14-way adjustable

Cost: Expensive

BC Racing
BR Series: http://store.pampenamotorsports.com/suspension/br-series-bc-racing-coilover.html
RAM Series: http://store.pampenamotorsports.com/suspension/ram-series-bc-racing-coilover.html

Never heard of these until I stumbled upon them at Pampena's site

CX Racing
http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CXR&Product_Code=CO-3000GT-1208&Category_Code=COVR
SPRING RATE:
Front 12kg(670lb/in) / Rear 8kg(447lb/in)

Benefits: Dirt cheap (seen as low as $650 new)

Cost: Get what you pay for?

D2
http://www.streettunedmotorsports.com/parts/d2_coilovers_3000gt.htm

Benefits: 32-way adjustment

Costs: Any?



Please link to any I missed.

[FeaRpb]

On the KSPORTS from what I heave HEARD, the leaking issue has been fixed since than and the new revisions don't leak.

[B-Man]

Updated in first post, looking for more confirmation.

[BigTyla]

I had Ksports on my 3S for four years without leaks, but I was not pleased with the overall quality of their coilovers. I've been in cars with coilover setups before so came to expect a rough ride, but have never felt a ride more harsh than what these Ksports provided. It was borderline dangerous at highway speeds going over bridges as the car would slide all over the place because the springs were so stiff. It did improve handling in turns, but I would never sacrifice safety for a little better perfomance in those conditions.

[B-Man]

Can you compare them to, say, megans? or Tein's?

[j2k4]

Like to hear about Ohlins, Bilsteins, etc., too. :)

[B-Man]

Like to hear about Ohlins, Bilsteins, etc., too. :)

AFAIK, they don't make 3S specific coilovers.

[BigTyla]

Can you compare them to, say, megans? or Tein's?

VR4Rob has Teins in his car. If you want I could ask him for a ride and give a comparison.

[niterydr]

Could we potentially split this into two categories:
1) 3/s bolt on
2) Evo bolt on with evo-3/s adapters

[B-Man]

VR4Rob has Teins in his car. If you want I could ask him for a ride and give a comparison.

That'd be awesome. I'd like to get more quantitative data if possible. What were your settings at? Spring pre-load high? Damping high?

[B-Man]

Could we potentially split this into two categories:
1) 3/s bolt on
2) Evo bolt on with evo-3/s adapters


:lol: Ok, I really don't want to be a douche, but I did say 3S specific in the first post. The list would be huge if we had Evo suspensions on there, too. Not to mention my personal opinion about running straight up Evo suspension w/o revalving/springing :suspect:

[BigTyla]

That'd be awesome. I'd like to get more quantitative data if possible. What were your settings at? Spring pre-load high? Damping high?

I had my coilvers set at the least aggressive settings possible at every corner. That includes damping, ride height, preload, etc.

[Vantage]

Subscribed.

[i3igpete]

looks like k-sports have some major QC issues... on the rears, one shock at full stiff is still softer than another shock on full soft. will try to find megan shock dyno results.

K-Sport Shock Dyno Results (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?473721-K-Sport-Shock-Dyno-Results)

http://www.msprotege.com/members/Jeff@Tri-Point/KsportFrontFinal.jpg
http://www.msprotege.com/members/Jeff@Tri-Point/KsportRearFinal.jpg



looks like megan has released their shock dyno info:

http://www.meganracing.com/tech/faqs.asp?id=103&subject=Megan%20Racing:%20%20Coil-over%20Shock%20Dyno%20Plots

Since they're actually willing to post their numbers, i'm guessing they have a bit more QC as well.
according to their specs, vr4/tt use M2 and A1 valves.
http://www.meganracing.com/uploadimage/regular/342011_13451_3435_1.jpg
http://www.meganracing.com/uploadimage/regular/342011_1350_6382_2.jpg

[BigTyla]

looks like k-sports have some major QC issues... on the rears, one shock at full stiff is still softer than another shock on full soft.

Those results aren't the least bit surprising to me.

[B-Man]

Pete,

First of all, thanks, I'm glad to see that info. Looks older, do you know if it's changed with the newer revision shock?

Second, the Megan site you showed, doesn't show variability of shock, like the Ksports. I'm assuming the two lines on Megan's graph are supposed to be from max to min adjustment.

[BigTyla]

Second, the Megan site you showed, doesn't show variability of shock, like the Ksports. I'm assuming the two lines on Megan's graph are supposed to be from max to min adjustment.

Correct. Top two lines are min and max compression. Bottom two lines are min and max rebound.

[BigTyla]

Here's a good read to get familiarized with shock dynos:

http://www.roehrigengineering.com/Technical%20Information/Where%20the%20graphs%20come%20from.pdf

[B-Man]

I gotta remember who works in our suspension group and see if I can snag a shock dyno for a couple hours. lol

[niterydr]

:lol: Ok, I really don't want to be a douche, but I did say 3S specific in the first post. The list would be huge if we had Evo suspensions on there, too. Not to mention my personal opinion about running straight up Evo suspension w/o revalving/springing :suspect:

Yeah I saw that. My only experience was with older k-sports and I can summarize them as stiff crap.

[vr4tune]

Their is a local guy who builds FULL CUSTOM COILOVERS SETUPS. He is well known in the Evo community for his high quality custom setups. People from English Racing and ETS have said nothing but great things about their quality and performance. He currently dosent make a 3/s specific suspension yet but can very easily.

picture of evo 8/9 coilovers
http://www.amrengineering.com/assets/images/34_1_full.jpg

AMR Engineering | AMR Engineering (http://www.amrengineering.com/)


http://youtu.be/1xzoYbVaueM

[CoopKill]

Does anyone know anything about these?

RAM series - BC Racing Coilover

http://cdn.perigeeglobal.com/pampena/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/800x600/c2bfe4c776f72036b09a06804953f265/r/a/ram.jpg

RAM series - BC Racing Coilover - Suspension - Pampena Motorsports (http://store.pampenamotorsports.com/suspension/ram-series-bc-racing-coilover.html)

[j2k4]

AFAIK, they don't make 3S specific coilovers.

I thought I remembered reading an old thread mentioning cart replacements in front but full struts in back...Bilstein, I believe that was...figured maybe time had been good to us. :)

[DG]

Those results aren't the least bit surprising to me.

Brother, I have been preaching this for years. Everything on that OP list is JUNK.

Bilsteins are easily and trivially converted to coilovers with the addition of a spring sleeve. A solid, repeatable shock that can be modified to a user-serviceable take-apart with little work, and can be made single adjustable with the addition of Bilstein's new adjustable bleed shaft (been out for a year or so now)

If I were going to do coilovers for my car, it would be Bilsteins. Period. End of discussion.

I'm *not* going to do coilovers though, because the OEM ECS is actually very, very good. It is a better ride vs handling compromise than any non-dynamic shock system. For a street car, it rocks. And if you really *must* have the ride height adjustments of a coilover, sleeving an OEM shock is completely doable and gets you the best of both worlds.

DG

[DG]

Bilstein HD Shock (http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/suspension.jsp?make=Bilstein&model=HD+Shock&group=HD+Shock&partNum=34-050224&autoMake=Mitsubishi&autoModel=3000GT+VR4&autoYear=1997&autoModClar=)

They are even on sale!

DG

[Rakuny]

Brother, I have been preaching this for years. Everything on that OP list is JUNK.

Bilsteins are easily and trivially converted to coilovers with the addition of a spring sleeve. A solid, repeatable shock that can be modified to a user-serviceable take-apart with little work, and can be made single adjustable with the addition of Bilstein's new adjustable bleed shaft (been out for a year or so now)

If I were going to do coilovers for my car, it would be Bilsteins. Period. End of discussion.

DG

This is what I'm doing, getting Bilstein to design the shimstacks and revalve them for me instead of making them user-serviceable though. I don't like the 3S application for the front that goes into the OEM foot, so I'm using EVO MR Bilsteins W/SCE adapters instead.

[B-Man]

Brother, I have been preaching this for years. Everything on that OP list is JUNK.

Bilsteins are easily and trivially converted to coilovers with the addition of a spring sleeve. A solid, repeatable shock that can be modified to a user-serviceable take-apart with little work, and can be made single adjustable with the addition of Bilstein's new adjustable bleed shaft (been out for a year or so now)

If I were going to do coilovers for my car, it would be Bilsteins. Period. End of discussion.

I'm *not* going to do coilovers though, because the OEM ECS is actually very, very good. It is a better ride vs handling compromise than any non-dynamic shock system. For a street car, it rocks. And if you really *must* have the ride height adjustments of a coilover, sleeving an OEM shock is completely doable and gets you the best of both worlds.

DG

Explain these. Pretty sure I know what you mean but I don't want to assume.

[B-Man]

My ECS has been broken for a long time. From what I've read when you disconnect it, struts go to full hardness. If they're at full hardness right now, I'd like an even stiffer setup.

[Rakuny]

Stealth 316 - Ground Control Spring Installation (http://www.stealth316.com/2-gc-springs.htm)

[B-Man]

Ah, always heard those called adjustable perches.

[B-Man]

FYI, I drove an Evo last night with Megan's at the softest setting. They were a lot harsher than I thought they would be, but not undrivable. My biggest issue with them was that they creaked so bad (owner said upper mounts needed lubing)

[Rakuny]

FYI, I drove an Evo last night with Megan's at the softest setting. They were a lot harsher than I thought they would be, but not undrivable. My biggest issue with them was that they creaked so bad (owner said upper mounts needed lubing)

They are probably critically overdamped.. most cheap/japanese coilovers are. I wouldn't trust the adjusters on megans anymore than I would trust the Ksport or Tein ones, which is not at all..

[B-Man]

If they were critically overdamped, it wasn't noticeable in the turns I did. Maybe at a different speed/radius it would be noticeable.

[niterydr]

So with those if us with non-functioning ECS, is it better to ditch it all and go with a Bilstein/GC setup, or fix the ECS and go with a lowering spring or GC coil over? This is for a street car with occasional track duty.

[Rakuny]

oh, also, how long have the Megans been on the evo? there's a good chance the bearings are worn out and that is the cause of the clunking. It's hard to find camber plates that use a quality bearing, I doubt <$1k coilovers would be an exception here.. Tein doesn't use good bearings in their camber plates either.


So with those if us with non-functioning ECS, is it better to ditch it all and go with a Bilstein/GC setup, or fix the ECS and go with a lowering spring or GC coil over? This is for a street car with occasional track duty.

How occasional? You could get a bilstein set-up to perform quite a bit better than stock without hurting ride quality too much.
If you use Bilstein struts I'd recommend the bilstein coilover sleeves instead of the GC's and pick your springs separately.. hypercoils > Eibach and the price is almost the same. Bilstein coilover sleeves are like $50 each.
Good read here:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446817&highlight=bilstein

[niterydr]

oh, also, how long have the Megans been on the evo? there's a good chance the bearings are worn out and that is the cause of the clunking. It's hard to find camber plates that use a quality bearing, I doubt <$1k coilovers would be an exception here.. Tein doesn't use good bearings in their camber plates either.



How occasional? You could get a bilstein set-up to perform quite a bit better than stock without hurting ride quality too much.
If you use Bilstein struts I'd recommend the bilstein coilover sleeves instead of the GC's and pick your springs separately.. hypercoils > Eibach and the price is almost the same. Bilstein coilover sleeves are like $50 each.
Good read here:
The gixxer_drew suspension thread.. (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446817&highlight=bilstein)

Right now minimal, but I am somewhat of a track slut (drag racing) and would like to get it out on the road course/auto-x for fun, nothing competitive. I will check that supraforums link out, thank you!

[B-Man]

Mark, you're sounding more and more like a nutswinger. http://alabamaracingscene.net/forum/images/smilies/nutswinger.gif

:lo5l:

[Rakuny]

Mark, you're sounding more and more like a nutswinger. http://alabamaracingscene.net/forum/images/smilies/nutswinger.gif

:lo5l:

:suspect:









lol...

[bridge]

Dan runs tein on bonzai btw

[IPD]

i was going to say "IN BEFORE DG RUINS THREAD"...but....

[TurboSinceBirth]

Brother, I have been preaching this for years. Everything on that OP list is JUNK.

Bilsteins are easily and trivially converted to coilovers with the addition of a spring sleeve. A solid, repeatable shock that can be modified to a user-serviceable take-apart with little work, and can be made single adjustable with the addition of Bilstein's new adjustable bleed shaft (been out for a year or so now)

If I were going to do coilovers for my car, it would be Bilsteins. Period. End of discussion.

I'm *not* going to do coilovers though, because the OEM ECS is actually very, very good. It is a better ride vs handling compromise than any non-dynamic shock system. For a street car, it rocks. And if you really *must* have the ride height adjustments of a coilover, sleeving an OEM shock is completely doable and gets you the best of both worlds.

DG

If I knew more about doing this I would do it in a heartbeat. I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to building a coilover though so I'd need to follow a write-up. I wouldn't know what to tell Bilstein either if they were to rework a set of shocks for me. I've just never messed with them. I do want a better coilover than the K-Sports that are on my car right now.

[MR2]

DG has a write up that's on the page linked in his Signature, it's very very easy, just tap the tube for a valve :)

I go with OEM ECS if I could make it fit :)

might still convert back to it one day ;|

[Rakuny]

If I knew more about doing this I would do it in a heartbeat. I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to building a coilover though so I'd need to follow a write-up. I wouldn't know what to tell Bilstein either if they were to rework a set of shocks for me. I've just never messed with them. I do want a better coilover than the K-Sports that are on my car right now.

If you decide to go this route in the future give them a call, I'm sure they'll be more than happy to discuss what you want to do with the car and what it's goals are and can make recommendations for you. I'm not sure about all what they need because I'm a couple months out from sending them my stuff but they will need sprung and unsprung weights at least.

[Ninja Performance]

I have the Ksports on my car and I am not happy with them. Ride is crap.

We do sell the Tein's and the KW Varient 3
Coil Over - Ninja Performance - Affordable Performance Auto Parts (http://www.ninjaperformance.com/index.php?cPath=368_49400040)

-Chris

[mb3000]

Subscribed for future use.

[2fnloud]

Brother, I have been preaching this for years. Everything on that OP list is JUNK.

Bilsteins are easily and trivially converted to coilovers with the addition of a spring sleeve. A solid, repeatable shock that can be modified to a user-serviceable take-apart with little work, and can be made single adjustable with the addition of Bilstein's new adjustable bleed shaft (been out for a year or so now)

If I were going to do coilovers for my car, it would be Bilsteins. Period. End of discussion.

I'm *not* going to do coilovers though, because the OEM ECS is actually very, very good. It is a better ride vs handling compromise than any non-dynamic shock system. For a street car, it rocks. And if you really *must* have the ride height adjustments of a coilover, sleeving an OEM shock is completely doable and gets you the best of both worlds.

DG


What if the C/O sleeve is more for a stiffer spring rate than height drop? Say 600LBS/in in the front / 432LBS/in in the rear with say only a 1.5" drop?

[NOMIEZVR4]

Bilsteins are easily and trivially converted to coilovers with the addition of a spring sleeve. A solid, repeatable shock that can be modified to a user-serviceable take-apart with little work, and can be made single adjustable with the addition of Bilstein's new adjustable bleed shaft (been out for a year or so now)

If I were going to do coilovers for my car, it would be Bilsteins. Period. End of discussion.

I'm *not* going to do coilovers though, because the OEM ECS is actually very, very good. It is a better ride vs handling compromise than any non-dynamic shock system. For a street car, it rocks. And if you really *must* have the ride height adjustments of a coilover, sleeving an OEM shock is completely doable and gets you the best of both worlds.

DG


How occasional? You could get a bilstein set-up to perform quite a bit better than stock without hurting ride quality too much.
If you use Bilstein struts I'd recommend the bilstein coilover sleeves instead of the GC's and pick your springs separately.. hypercoils > Eibach and the price is almost the same. Bilstein coilover sleeves are like $50 each.
Good read here:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...light=bilstein

How would one go about to do this? I'm getting ready to purchase a coilover setup, but you've caught my attention. I currently have a functional ECS suspension setup on my car(97k completely stock) and I love the ride. My ONLY gripe is the enormous wheel gap. I just want to lower my car about 1.5 to 2" and not compromise the ride quality or handling. My car is a street car that never gets tracked. Occasionally I'll have a spirited drive on the street but that's about it. Guide me please...:p

EDIT: I skimmed through the supraforums thread...is that pretty much what the whole process involves?

1. buy bilstein shocks
2. buy the coilover sleeves
3. buy the hypercoil springs--in whatever flavor you want, right?
4. Assemble?

Like the poster above, turbosincebirth, I also have no idea what I'm doing. I just want to keep the stock ride quality, not compromise the handling but have a lowered stance. That's all.

[Rakuny]

How would one go about to do this? I'm getting ready to purchase a coilover setup, but you've caught my attention. I currently have a functional ECS suspension setup on my car(97k completely stock) and I love the ride. My ONLY gripe is the enormous wheel gap. I just want to lower my car about 1.5 to 2" and not compromise the ride quality or handling. My car is a street car that never gets tracked. Occasionally I'll have a spirited drive on the street but that's about it. Guide me please...:p

EDIT: I skimmed through the supraforums thread...is that pretty much what the whole process involves?

1. buy bilstein shocks
2. buy the coilover sleeves
3. buy the hypercoil springs--in whatever flavor you want, right?
4. Assemble?

Like the poster above, turbosincebirth, I also have no idea what I'm doing. I just want to keep the stock ride quality, not compromise the handling but have a lowered stance. That's all.

Basically that's what it entails.. The rear shocks come with a snap ring groove already cut and uses it with a spring perch for the stock spring (the F&R on the supra are like this). It's easy to take that perch off and put a coilover sleeve on.

The front for us is not so easy.. in the front the spring perch is obviously welded on, it has to be removed and so does the weld bead from it. You'd also need a snap ring groove machined into the shock body. You'll want to measure the stock strut diameter because it will probably take a different size coilover sleeve than the rear. Maybe ground control sleeves would be better as they're made for our stock strut bodies. just need to make sure they will fit the new Bilstein rear correctly (I'm not sure if you can get them without the springs).. coilover sleeves typically come slightly upsized (like 1/16") with rubber O-rings to help them not rattle around and create a tight fit. If you read back on the stealth316 ground control guide it shows them.

Here is a guide on how to install the bilstein front strut.
Installing Bilstein struts - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f41/installing-bilstein-struts-233151/)
I'd find and talk to a good machine shop about removing the weld beads on the front and for machining your snap ring groove. You should be able to remove the spring perch itself on your own.

On the hypercoils basically whatever flavor.. if your going a lot stiffer than stock I'd call bilstein and ask if the spring rates you have in mind will play well with the valving.. if not you can always get them revalved. Here are the services that bilstein offers.
Service (http://www.bilsteinus.com/products/search-service/service.html)

[B-Man]

How would one go about to do this? I'm getting ready to purchase a coilover setup, but you've caught my attention. I currently have a functional ECS suspension setup on my car(97k completely stock) and I love the ride. My ONLY gripe is the enormous wheel gap. I just want to lower my car about 1.5 to 2" and not compromise the ride quality or handling. My car is a street car that never gets tracked. Occasionally I'll have a spirited drive on the street but that's about it. Guide me please...:p

EDIT: I skimmed through the supraforums thread...is that pretty much what the whole process involves?

1. buy bilstein shocks
2. buy the coilover sleeves
3. buy the hypercoil springs--in whatever flavor you want, right?
4. Assemble?

Like the poster above, turbosincebirth, I also have no idea what I'm doing. I just want to keep the stock ride quality, not compromise the handling but have a lowered stance. That's all.

Sounds like you just want lowering springs. Usually a little stiffer, so it will affect ride quality, but not too bad.
Supercar Engineering (http://supercar-engineering.com/sc2/product_info.php?cPath=10&products_id=372)
Intrax Loweing Springs (91-99 VR4/TT), IPS Motorsports (http://www.ipsmotorsports.net/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=3543_3550_986_1001&products_id=1121&osCsid=ejnoqnob007plo00kjuogv27b5)

[NOMIEZVR4]

Nah...I don't want springs. I want to be able to tuck my car based on my preference. :)

So it seems the GC setup will probably be a lot more hassle free...but you're just not sure yet if the coilover sleeve will fit the rear bilsteins? I'm sure someone must have done this setup before...

[2fnloud]

Just keep the stock ECS struts

[Rakuny]

Nah...I don't want springs. I want to be able to tuck my car based on my preference. :)

So it seems the GC setup will probably be a lot more hassle free...but you're just not sure yet if the coilover sleeve will fit the rear bilsteins? I'm sure someone must have done this setup before...

I really don't know the sizing.. after looking around it seems that almost all the coilover sleeves I looked at were 2".. maybe that's a pretty standard shock body diamater.
my EVO MR bilstein rear struts are like 50mm diamater.. I swear I measured my front struts as being just larger than that maybe 51 or 52mm.. I'll have to double check. (fyi, 2" = 50.8MM)
here are the bilstein coilover sleeves, little more than I thought $280 for all four.
Bilstein B4BOA0000117 - Bilstein Coil-Over Sleeve Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BSN-B4BOA0000117/)

Edit: I'm not sure if you saw the link on the first page but if you are interested in keeping your ECS you could go with ground controls on the stock struts. should still give you the adjustability your looking for. here is the link again.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-gc-springs.htm
From your posts it's hard to tell exactly what your goals are.

[Jimvr4]

I replaced all my stock ECS two years ago and went with Tein S-Tech / H-Tech springs. I don't think I could possibly go lower than I have as there is only 1 finger gap on all corners. The ride quality is great too after fixing a rubbing issue with adjustable control arms and some slight negative camber. I don't think I could do much better with coilovers.

[NOMIEZVR4]

My goals are just to have a lowered car that doesn't adversely affect handling. If in the process of lowering the car the handling improves, great. If not, no biggie. But I do want adjust ability in the height of the car.I think ill just pick up a set of GC's and keep the stock shocks but with a much lower ride height wont the stock shocks get destroyed prematurely?

[j2k4]

I replaced all my stock ECS two years ago and went with Tein S-Tech / H-Tech springs. I don't think I could possibly go lower than I have as there is only 1 finger gap on all corners. The ride quality is great too after fixing a rubbing issue with adjustable control arms and some slight negative camber. I don't think I could do much better with coilovers.

Jim-

I just did S-Techs all-around, and went down just shy of 2" in front and 1.5" in back, about what's advertized.

I've still got just shy of a two-fingers-width gap - did yours "settle" some, as the consumers (us), also seem to say?

I'm on KYBs, btw. :)


My goals are just to have a lowered car that doesn't adversely affect handling. If in the process of lowering the car the handling improves, great. If not, no biggie. But I do want adjust ability in the height of the car.I think ill just pick up a set of GC's and keep the stock shocks but with a much lower ride height wont the stock shocks get destroyed prematurely?

My understanding of it is that as long as the struts are new - or damn close to it - you should be okay as to life-span of stock/stock replacement stuff - it's when they get strapped onto older/higher mileage stuff that strut-life starts to bite.

Mine were just installed, and my struts have about 4500 miles on them, so - we'll see. :)

[Jimvr4]

Jim-

I just did S-Techs all-around, and went down just shy of 2" in front and 1.5" in back, about what's advertized.

I've still got just shy of a two-fingers-width gap - did yours "settle" some, as the consumers (us), also seem to say?

I'm on KYBs, btw. :)

My understanding of it is that as long as the struts are new - or damn close to it - you should be okay as to life-span of stock/stock replacement stuff - it's when they get strapped onto older/higher mileage stuff that strut-life starts to bite.

Mine were just installed, and my struts have about 4500 miles on them, so - we'll see. :)

I could place a 1 inch wide steel ruler in there after initial installation and settling. It's definitely changed another 1/2 inch from there possibly due to adding 2 degrees of negative camber. IDK about the life question - it seems to me the strut is just a viscous damper. It doesn't move quickly in either direction but I don't know that having it's rest point a couple inches lower causes any added stresses. It seems to me it should recover fine as long as you don't bottom out.

[Maximal]

I'm happy with my Megans. I've heard more complaints about the more expensive Teins than I have the Megans and of course they're better than the ksports. The more expensive options haven't really been tested that well since they're not as popular so it's a gamble to see whether it's worth the money or not.

[j2k4]

I could place a 1 inch wide steel ruler in there after initial installation and settling. It's definitely changed another 1/2 inch from there possibly due to adding 2 degrees of negative camber. IDK about the life question - it seems to me the strut is just a viscous damper. It doesn't move quickly in either direction but I don't know that having it's rest point a couple inches lower causes any added stresses. It seems to me it should recover fine as long as you don't bottom out.

The new springs/old struts question seemed to hinge in the springs' moving the strut travel to a different part of the the strut-rod.

Seems sensible enough...

[Rakuny]

I thought it was because the inner surface of the strut gets worn slightly as the miles get put on.. lowering the car then puts the internal movement of the shock down to an area that's not worn and affects the seal around the shimstack/piston and the ID of the shock body.

[j2k4]

The new springs/old struts question seemed to hinge in the springs' moving the strut travel to a different part of the the strut-rod.

Seems sensible enough...


I thought it was because the inner surface of the strut gets worn slightly as the miles get put on.. lowering the car then puts the internal movement of the shock down to an area that's not worn and affects the seal around the shimstack/piston and the ID of the shock body.

A better way of saying the same thing. Thanks. :)

[FeaRpb]

So, what is the best coilover setup for the drag strip?

[IPD]

So, what is the best coilover setup for the drag strip?

d2's? at least that's what austin ran.

[FeaRpb]

According to DG, D2's are horrible trash and a disgrace to the word suspension.

[B-Man]

According to DG, D2's are horrible trash and a disgrace to the word suspension.

And apparently so are KW3s

[R/T93]

And Moton.....

[B-Man]

I forgot to include JICs in the first page, but I"m not sure if they even make them anymore.

[Rakuny]

I wouldn't put any of those brands on my car.. quality talk aside You can do your own Bilstein coilovers for less money. Bilstein customer service is fantastic, revalves are dirt cheap and they provide dyno sheets for each and every shock. :soap:
I'll shut up now :p

[prop7459]

Rukuny or DG can you give us a parts breakdown to create a Bilstein system. DG, I have been on your site and you mention you have build several hundreds these conversions. How much would charge to make a Bilstein setup for our cars?

[j2k4]

Rukuny or DG can you give us a parts breakdown to create a Bilstein system. DG, I have been on your site and you mention you have build several hundreds these conversions. How much would charge to make a Bilstein setup for our cars?

I asked him via PM if he still does that sort of thing but got no response. :huh:

[MR2]

DG got the shits for people constantly asking for what was in his sig :p

[Emilie@GZP]

d2's are ksports, and cxracing is megans. teins are on the same playing field as those as well. Boils down to cost in my opinion. Most people don't do the type of driving/racing to justify the more costly coilover set-up's.

We have Ksports on our car, and I love them, some people hate tem. It's a matter of how you set them up and adjust them, a lot of people don't set them up properly, and wind up hating them, or running into problems. I've driven in cars with Megans, that I love, and cars with Megans that I hate.

BTW, we carry Ksports, KW's, Tein's, CXRacing, etc. ;)

[Emilie@GZP]

I also ran across a company recently, DGR, that offers suspension for our cars as well. I do not know anything about them, their pricing is a bit higher than KSports.

DGR Suspension USA / North America | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/dgrsuspensionusa)

[B-Man]

You guys should request a 'sample' to become a distributor :suspect:

[a2j]

so, new oem/ecs struts with GC kit is the way to go for DD with an occasional road course? s-tein springs give me perfect wheel gap, GC can do the same? I'd like to keep ecs feature.

[j2k4]

Rukuny or DG can you give us a parts breakdown to create a Bilstein system. DG, I have been on your site and you mention you have build several hundreds these conversions. How much would charge to make a Bilstein setup for our cars?


I asked him via PM if he still does that sort of thing but got no response. :huh:


DG got the shits for people constantly asking for what was in his sig :p

I wasn't one of them, although we did argue politics rather vociferously in chat once.

[CoopKill]

Rukuny or DG can you give us a parts breakdown to create a Bilstein system. DG, I have been on your site and you mention you have build several hundreds these conversions. How much would charge to make a Bilstein setup for our cars?

He wants nothing to do with building them anymore. I have talked with him about it, and he has no time nor drive to do it...

[j2k4]

He wants nothing to do with building them anymore. I have talked with him about it, and he has no time nor drive to do it...

That takes care of that, then. :)

[Rakuny]

There's just not enough money in producing them to make it worthwhile.
Here is a cost breakdown for my EVO MR Bilstein conversion

$300......Front camber/caster plates
$200......Rear plates
$250......Springs (hypercoil)
$280......Bilstein coil over sleeves
$120......Helper springs (hypercoil)
$400......Bilstein struts (I paid $200 for the used MR's and $150 for the SCE adapters)
$280......Bilstein revalving servies
I will also have to pay developing fees for them to meet my valving targets. We'll just call it 4 hours of straight labor and include the removal of the stock spring perches and weld beads in this cost.
$260
I will need snap-ring grooves cut in the front and might need snap ring grooves cut in a different location on the rears. They charge $10 per groove
$20-$40

Total:
$2130

If someone was converting the shocks to take-aparts, designing shim stacks themselves, doing almost all the work, And if they could get wholesale pricing on the parts then MAYBE. I still doubt it though.

If your not running super stiff springs and stock weight and therefore don't want/need new valving you can see how this would be a decent amount cheaper than KW variants or other high cost coilovers.

[IPD]

at that price, i'll take the $900 coilover option.

[vr4tune]

There's just not enough money in producing them to make it worthwhile.
Here is a cost breakdown for my EVO MR Bilstein conversion

$300......Front camber/caster plates
$200......Rear plates
$250......Springs (hypercoil)
$280......Bilstein coil over sleeves
$120......Helper springs (hypercoil)
$400......Bilstein struts (I paid $200 for the used MR's and $150 for the SCE adapters)
$280......Bilstein revalving servies
I will also have to pay developing fees for them to meet my valving targets. We'll just call it 4 hours of straight labor and include the removal of the stock spring perches and weld beads in this cost.
$260
I will need snap-ring grooves cut in the front and might need snap ring grooves cut in a different location on the rears. They charge $10 per groove
$20-$40

Total:
$2130

If someone was converting the shocks to take-aparts, designing shim stacks themselves, doing almost all the work, And if they could get wholesale pricing on the parts then MAYBE. I still doubt it though.

If your not running super stiff springs and stock weight and therefore don't want/need new valving you can see how this would be a decent amount cheaper than KW variants or other high cost coilovers.


Or have AMR Engineering build a full custom set for that price or less! He also uses hypercoils in all his coilovers.


Their is a local guy who builds FULL CUSTOM COILOVERS SETUPS. He is well known in the Evo community for his high quality custom setups. People from English Racing and ETS have said nothing but great things about their quality and performance. He currently dosent make a 3/s specific suspension yet but can very easily.

picture of evo 8/9 coilovers
http://www.amrengineering.com/assets/images/34_1_full.jpg

Links below!
AMR Engineering | AMR Engineering (http://www.amrengineering.com/)


http://youtu.be/1xzoYbVaueM

[Rakuny]

at that price, i'll take the $900 coilover option.

If your not tracking the car and don't want to spend money on good shocks then imo stick with ECS and get ground controls.. would be better than any "off-the-shelf" coilover in that price range as far as I'm concerned. My car is going to see a lot of road course and auto-x, I'm gonna have coil overs that are made specifically for my application.

If you bought cheaper camber plates (tein sells F&R sets for our cars at $150/set) and didn't get the shocks revalved it'd be about $1400 or you could use stock top mounts and spend $1100... take out the helper springs which as far as I can tell a lot of cheap coilovers seem to come without and your looking at ≤$1000. Just need to find a machine shop to remove the front spring perches and cut snap ring grooves.


Or have AMR Engineering build a full custom set for that price or less! He also uses hypercoils in all his coilovers.

those do look really nice and it appears that they are doing everything right, Hypercoils and shock dynoing!
I want to be able to adjust caster though and I don't want adjuster knobs.
definitely a viable option though.

[B-Man]

Total:
$2130




those do look really nice and it appears that they are doing everything right, Hypercoils and shock dynoing!
I want to be able to adjust caster though and I don't want adjuster knobs.
definitely a viable option though.

Two kinda wtf statements, Mark.

I'm sure AMR could build you a set w/o adjusters.

Once it's all said and done, we'll swap cars and see if you think it was REALLY worth it......

[Rakuny]

What is so great about them? When it's right it's right.
I don't want to chase myself all day trying to fine tune and trust my butt-dyno when I can get a real dyno to do the work instead. Every course is going to be different, without datalogging the best you can do is be in the ballpark. afaik F1 cars don't have adjusters. They run the car on a shaker jig that emulates the last race and set the valving to that.
besides all that show me a reasonably priced adjuster that has a linear curve click to click.

from my competition car suspension book this is after it addresses the correct method to tune with bump or rebound adjusters

"Strictly speaking these settings will apply only to the venue where you are testing. They may well need repeating at every other place at which you compete. Another is how you sense or estimate what is happening is described in words. Without reasonable driving experience in the car you may at first have very little idea of what is going on. Only more car time will deal with this, but you can hurry things up a bit by studiously keeping speeds within your comfortable limit. They will increase steadily without conscious effort as confidence grows.
It is also not impossible you will find that going up at all from full soft will cause immediate trouble, (springs too weak) or that final maximum stiffness will not produce the results (coils too strong). If the springs are an integrated part of the design which they certainly should be, the dampers will require internal re-valving."

What it says about rebound damping:
"Rebound Damping:
This controls the transition of the car's attitude into roll as it enters a corner. It cannot alter the total roll angle, but only increase the time it takes to reach that point. Roll angle is governed by a variety of other factors including spring rates and anti-roll bar settings. Too much rebound will cause an initial loss of lateral adhesion (ie understeer at the front or oversteer at the rear). It can also cause 'jacking down' when the car slowly loses ground clearance because the coil is too weak to return to its proper length before being hit by the next bump.

It's too late for me to go with AMR anyways, but I'd rather have Bilsteins the cost difference is not much and I'll have the ability to adjust caster.

[HLxDrummer]

Man you guys are killing me. I was planning to get a set of Megan's soon but you guys make low priced off the shelf stuff seem awful! My car is a street car with some track time but mostly street. I could do ECS but I like the stiffer, more adjustable coilovers...

All the options in this thread seem like a lot of work for a 22 year old with little experience! Lol

[B-Man]

:lo5l: Some of the fastest cars at NG run off the shelf coilovers. All the extra work Rakuny is doing is to get that last 10%

[B-Man]

What is so great about them? When it's right it's right.
I don't want to chase myself all day trying to fine tune and trust my butt-dyno when I can get a real dyno to do the work instead. Every course is going to be different, without datalogging the best you can do is be in the ballpark. afaik F1 cars don't have adjusters. They run the car on a shaker jig that emulates the last race and set the valving to that.
besides all that show me a reasonably priced adjuster that has a linear curve click to click.

from my competition car suspension book this is after it addresses the correct method to tune with bump or rebound adjusters

"Strictly speaking these settings will apply only to the venue where you are testing. They may well need repeating at every other place at which you compete. Another is how you sense or estimate what is happening is described in words. Without reasonable driving experience in the car you may at first have very little idea of what is going on. Only more car time will deal with this, but you can hurry things up a bit by studiously keeping speeds within your comfortable limit. They will increase steadily without conscious effort as confidence grows.
It is also not impossible you will find that going up at all from full soft will cause immediate trouble, (springs too weak) or that final maximum stiffness will not produce the results (coils too strong). If the springs are an integrated part of the design which they certainly should be, the dampers will require internal re-valving."

What it says about rebound damping:
"Rebound Damping:
This controls the transition of the car's attitude into roll as it enters a corner. It cannot alter the total roll angle, but only increase the time it takes to reach that point. Roll angle is governed by a variety of other factors including spring rates and anti-roll bar settings. Too much rebound will cause an initial loss of lateral adhesion (ie understeer at the front or oversteer at the rear). It can also cause 'jacking down' when the car slowly loses ground clearance because the coil is too weak to return to its proper length before being hit by the next bump.

It's too late for me to go with AMR anyways, but I'd rather have Bilsteins the cost difference is not much and I'll have the ability to adjust caster.

I think you'll end up 'chasing yourself' with the bilstein's, too but we'll see.

I still don't see the cost vs benefit vs hassle being worth it.

[Rakuny]

It's not much hassle, Bilstein works everything out for you, I just have to place a few orders take a couple measurements off the car and ship the shocks out.

[R/T93]

My Teins have been nothing but wonderful on the 60+ Autocrosses and half a dozen lapping days I have been to in my 2 3/S's

Just saying.

[B-Man]

It's not much hassle, Bilstein works everything out for you, I just have to place a few orders take a couple measurements off the car and ship the shocks out.

You don't plan on specifying the valving at all? You're just gonna tell them you track it and hope for the best?

[B-Man]

FYI, it's no bilstein, but there are places that'll revalve megans (replace with their own cartridge)

Feal Upgrade (http://odib.web.officelive.com/FealUpgrade.aspx)

[Rakuny]

You don't plan on specifying the valving at all? You're just gonna tell them you track it and hope for the best?

I will be specifying. What I meant was that I just tell them what I want and give them a few measurements off the car.. corner weights and a couple other things. They take care of the rest.

[anyonebutme]

FYI, it's no bilstein, but there are places that'll revalve megans (replace with their own cartridge)

Feal Upgrade (http://odib.web.officelive.com/FealUpgrade.aspx)

Thanks for the link, that may become useful someday.

[DG]

The Bilstein sleeve will fit a Bilstein shock - oddly enough.

The front is a little trickier, as stated. There are a couple of different ways for Bilstein to do struts. One way is an insert that fits into the OEM "foot"; the other way is a full-up replacement, like they do with the Cobra R shocks.

If it is a full-up replacement, the OD of the foot is - again, like they thought this through or something - the same OD as a "regular" shock, so the sleeve fits over it.

The snap ring that supports the sleeve is also used to support a rigid spring perch that adapts the OEM spring to the shock body, and it is placed at about the same place it would be on the OEM shock. Sometimes this means the snap ring is not well placed to support the coilover sleeve, so you have to cut a new groove in the shock body. This is a trivial operation on any lathe.

Securing the spring on the top end can go a couple of different ways. Sometimes you can get away with just resting it in the OEM spring perch, sometimes with the aid of a rubber pad to help with the different interface. The proper way is to do a coaxial upper hat. See my design here: Autocross.dsm.org - Build Your Own Konis (http://farnorthracing.com/autocross/konis.html) You substitute in the Bilstein upper hat for the Koni, tweak the dimensions of the upper standoffs slightly to fit, and the bolt spacing on the plate probably needs to change to fit a 3S, but you get the idea.

On the front, you want a bearing to take up the steering axis so my DSM design won't quite work, but by examining the OEM design and mine you should be able to figure out a hybrid.

This gets you, effectively, a set of NASCAR Cup car shocks - far, FAR better than anything else out there at a tiny fraction of the cost.

GC probably has a setup that figures out sleeves over OEM shocks. Their upper spring mount solutions can sometimes be wonky, but are usually good enough for street cars (except on 2G DSMs, where it is outright shit)


I'm sure someone must have done this setup before...

What's wrong with doing your own R&D? Hell, I designed about 75% of the parts on the race car. I did my own intercooler, intercooler piping, shocks, wheels (fitment - I had the third set of TE37s in North America) intake piping, hood vent, exhaust, prototyped 3 different turbos, was the second standalone EMS in a DSM, seat mounts... just a ton of stuff. If I had to wait for someone else to do it, it would never get done. SO why the reluctance to buy some parts and figure shit out?


will be specifying. What I meant was that I just tell them what I want and give them a few measurements off the car.. corner weights and a couple other things. They take care of the rest.

They'll get it wrong.

As much as we like to think that vendors understand cars, most aftermarket shock development is smoke and bullshit. Most don't even have a dyno to test their own shocks, never mind the ability to design damping curves.

Ask them where the roll centre on the front suspension of a 3S is. Ask them what the motion ratio is.

99% of them just go "stiff" with a wide adjustment range, and hope that there's a setting in there somewhere the customer likes.

I had customers bring in some shocks, we dynoed them, then they went off to the "tuner" for revalving - and came back exactly the same. MAYBE they got fresh oil and seals, but the valving didn't change (when I did revalves you got before and after dyno plots so you could see the difference)

It's bad enough with popular cars; with rare and old stuff like a 3S - forget it.

DG

[Rakuny]

They'll get it wrong.

As much as we like to think that vendors understand cars, most aftermarket shock development is smoke and bullshit. Most don't even have a dyno to test their own shocks, never mind the ability to design damping curves.

Ask them where the roll centre on the front suspension of a 3S is. Ask them what the motion ratio is.

99% of them just go "stiff" with a wide adjustment range, and hope that there's a setting in there somewhere the customer likes.

I had customers bring in some shocks, we dynoed them, then they went off to the "tuner" for revalving - and came back exactly the same. MAYBE they got fresh oil and seals, but the valving didn't change (when I did revalves you got before and after dyno plots so you could see the difference)

It's bad enough with popular cars; with rare and old stuff like a 3S - forget it.

DG

Even Bilstein will get it wrong?

[DG]

Well... not so much wrong as iterative.

Koni and Bilstein have an advantage over most other shock manufacturers in that they are frequently the OEM supplier. They may have access to the OEM design documents and so know what a "stock replacement" looks like from a curve design perspective. So when you get one of their shocks, you get something that either has a pretty good duplicate of the OEM design curve somewhere in the adjustment range, or is the OEM curve plus some reasonable amount extra.

So better than a pure WAG, or the same valving spread across different part numbers like many Japanese shocks are.

But that information doesn't necessarily trickle down to the performance division. Koni and Bilstein don't have models of the car's suspension that they can pull and run to make changes. Instead, they have "rules of thumb" based on experience with other cars that they'll apply.

And they'll hedge their bets somewhat to keep from getting too extreme.

So what you get when you send the shocks to Koni or Bilstein is a revalving that is a little softer/stiffer in compression/rebound based on what you tell them, and they'll iterate around that as much as you want until you're happy.

You'll get what you ask for, in that if you ask for 10% stiffer low speed compression the shock will (probably) be dynoed to verify, or at least they'll pull a shimstack out of the catalogue that mostly does what you want (and they've done it so many times they trust the notes to be right) - which again, is far better than the "revalves" from the Asian stuff I saw that didn't actually change forces. But it is doing it the slow way and it is only as good as the information you send them... which typically isn't very good.

The right way to do it is to measure and model YOUR CAR, from that derive a spec curve that you want, and then get Koni or Bilstein to match your spec curve. If you are lucky, there is an off-the-shelf valving that matches. Otherwise, you get to pay by the hour for cut and try to generate a curve that matches your spec.

Of all the custom Bilsteins I did, I never had an OTS Bilstein exactly match my calculations. They tended to be a little bit stiff in low speed rebound - not outrageously so, but a little bit. And depending on when they were designed, it wasn't unusual to see older designs have symmetric bleeds (later stuff used the COB pistons that lets compression and rebound bleed be set independently)

An OTS Bilstein HD valving is a good place to start.

But if you expect to give Bilstein a set of corner rates and spring rates and get back of perfect shock... nope, won't happen.

DG

[Rakuny]

Thanks DG, looks like I'll be modeling my car in a couple months.

[IPD]

everyone glows over ecs...and completely misses the fact that some of us don't have ecs, never had ecs, and never will have ecs.

[DG]

Have you missed the several pages of discussion on the merits of Bilsteins?

Seriously dude... if you don't have anything constructive to say, how about you stay silent?

DG

[DG]

More discussion here: http://www.3sgto.org/f17/options-ecs-struts-other-concerns-7618.html

DG

[J. Fast]

They'll get it wrong.

As much as we like to think that vendors understand cars, most aftermarket shock development is smoke and bullshit. Most don't even have a dyno to test their own shocks, never mind the ability to design damping curves.

Ask them where the roll centre on the front suspension of a 3S is. Ask them what the motion ratio is.

99% of them just go "stiff" with a wide adjustment range, and hope that there's a setting in there somewhere the customer likes.

I had customers bring in some shocks, we dynoed them, then they went off to the "tuner" for revalving - and came back exactly the same. MAYBE they got fresh oil and seals, but the valving didn't change (when I did revalves you got before and after dyno plots so you could see the difference)

It's bad enough with popular cars; with rare and old stuff like a 3S - forget it.

DG

Damn, you're so jaded DG. You don't trust Bilstein to build a spec shock?


Even Bilstein will get it wrong?

Fuckin geeze, no they won't. That's all opinion. You don't think they have Q.C.?


Well... not so much wrong as iterative.

Koni and Bilstein have an advantage over most other shock manufacturers in that they are frequently the OEM supplier. They may have access to the OEM design documents and so know what a "stock replacement" looks like from a curve design perspective. So when you get one of their shocks, you get something that either has a pretty good duplicate of the OEM design curve somewhere in the adjustment range, or is the OEM curve plus some reasonable amount extra.

So better than a pure WAG, or the same valving spread across different part numbers like many Japanese shocks are.

But that information doesn't necessarily trickle down to the performance division. Koni and Bilstein don't have models of the car's suspension that they can pull and run to make changes. Instead, they have "rules of thumb" based on experience with other cars that they'll apply.

And they'll hedge their bets somewhat to keep from getting too extreme.

So what you get when you send the shocks to Koni or Bilstein is a revalving that is a little softer/stiffer in compression/rebound based on what you tell them, and they'll iterate around that as much as you want until you're happy.

You'll get what you ask for, in that if you ask for 10% stiffer low speed compression the shock will (probably) be dynoed to verify, or at least they'll pull a shimstack out of the catalogue that mostly does what you want (and they've done it so many times they trust the notes to be right) - which again, is far better than the "revalves" from the Asian stuff I saw that didn't actually change forces. But it is doing it the slow way and it is only as good as the information you send them... which typically isn't very good.

The right way to do it is to measure and model YOUR CAR, from that derive a spec curve that you want, and then get Koni or Bilstein to match your spec curve. If you are lucky, there is an off-the-shelf valving that matches. Otherwise, you get to pay by the hour for cut and try to generate a curve that matches your spec.

Of all the custom Bilsteins I did, I never had an OTS Bilstein exactly match my calculations. They tended to be a little bit stiff in low speed rebound - not outrageously so, but a little bit. And depending on when they were designed, it wasn't unusual to see older designs have symmetric bleeds (later stuff used the COB pistons that lets compression and rebound bleed be set independently)

An OTS Bilstein HD valving is a good place to start.

But if you expect to give Bilstein a set of corner rates and spring rates and get back of perfect shock... nope, won't happen.

DG

Of course you won't get back a "perfect shock". They'll atleast get you in the ballpark. And a hell of a lot closer to where you need to be than some tuner shock could come. Geeze man, what do pro shock builers and company's like Bilstein use Critical Dampening Analysis programs for? You fill out their info sheet with your vehicle specs, they customize for you, and send it back with a dyno sheet for each shock. For some of this stuff you're opinions and distrust for others is waaay ot there. Some of your opinions come from years and years of seeing things totally fucked up and it sucks that it had to be that way, but what about the shit that was right.

Having spec'd a few suspensions on my own now I trust the quality control of Bilstein and I trust pro MFR's and builders to do as they say. I always check everyones work and odly enough it's always as advertised. It sucks that you weren't so lucky because now you don't trust anyones work but your own and it's got you jaded.

[IPD]

Have you missed the several pages of discussion on the merits of Bilsteins?

Seriously dude... if you don't have anything constructive to say, how about you stay silent?

DG

until/unless the "billstein solution" is offered as a kit from one of our vendors....it's not a truly good option. i didn't buy my turbo kit headers, o2 pipes, wastegates, etc...peacemeal either.

[BigTyla]

until/unless the "billstein solution" is offered as a kit from one of our vendors....it's not a truly good option. i didn't buy my turbo kit headers, o2 pipes, wastegates, etc...peacemeal either.

Performance parts don't have to be offered as a kit to be a good option. Indeed, many of the most effective and performance-oriented products are one-offs. They might be more expensive, but I wouldn't let that be the end-all of judging something as not being a good option.

[DG]

until/unless the "billstein solution" is offered as a kit from one of our vendors....it's not a truly good option

Oh, Jebus. Turn in your Man Card.

You own a rare and obscure Japanese GT car made in tiny numbers for a short period of time - that has no racing heritage and no factory support. There are ZERO economies of scale in the platform and little to no opportunities to leverage other markets.

Shit is NOT going to be spoon fed to you. You are, by virtue of owning this vehicle, in the business of the one-off and assembling of bits from multiple sources. Assuming otherwise, Cleopatra, is to set yourself up for a lot of disappointment.

Are far as Bilstein, Koni, etc's work and quality control goes...

Man, I loved the Bilstein guys. Brett and Bill were awesome to me. (Brett is still there, Bill is at RockShox now) Joe Stimola (RIP) at Penske was awesome, and I always liked Lee at Koni too. These are all great guys who do everything they can to help out customers.

But you have to understand how they work - they don't (except in very special circumstances, like the Neon ACR having Konis on it from the OEM) have access to the OEM engineering data. They don't have models of your car. They cannot be expected to know all the geometry and handling quirks of a thousand car platforms (unless one of them owns the same car as you - likely with a Neon or Miata, not so much with a 3S)

What they do have is a great big book of valvings and the forces that go with them. If your spec matches a valving in the book - awesome possum. If it doesn't, then they start with something close and start making changes to the shimstack to try and get it to match. But at this point, you are on the clock AND you are in competition with everybody else who wants valving. And brother, if you ain't a NASCAR Cup team, you are wayyyyyy down the priority list.

I never had a single Bilstein custom valving exactly match my spec. They were usually in the ballpark, and closer than an OTS valving (like say a 7030 or whatever) but they just didn't have the time to tweak the valvings.

So I started learning to do it myself. It was ultimately faster and cheaper to do it that way, even with the learning curve. And it ain't easy; it would take me a couple of iterations to get to where I thought it was acceptable and even then I was never really perfect.

Their quality control was excellent, in that, if they say X shimstack will make Y force, it absolutely will (Bilstein and Penske especially) The likelihood of Y force matching your spec? Much less.

Ultimately, the only person you can trust with your car is YOU. The buck stops with YOU, not with any supplier or soi disant "expert".

A buddy of mine was the engineer for one of those American LeMans spec LMP cars (the funny looking ones... one was a Pontiac, Porsche had another - spec chassis with your motor in it - I forget the name of the series) The car wouldn't handle and reacted to suspension changes oddly. So he did the step he skipped and measured and modeled the car. Guess what? Rear suspension rockers out of spec - falling rate on the motion ratio. Aha!

It's not being "jaded", it is about being professional.

DG

[IPD]

i'm just saying that when joe-blow looks for suspension, his options are something super-expensive, something affordable that has to be pieced together, or something plug & play that's virtually the same price.

ya think there's a REASON why pre-made 16g kits sell so much better than DIY garrett turbo setups?

[DG]

Which is precisely the reason why the crap vendors can sell crap. It's crap - but it's easy. And cognitive dissidence kicks in and prevents them from realizing that they spend all that coin on crap.

That, and it turns out that evaluating shocks is really difficult, even for the super-talented.

Rise above the simple and easy. Don't waste your money on crap, just because good is hard.

DG

[B-Man]

You just hate everything, don't you? :lo5l:

[DG]

No, not at all.

I'm a huge fan of the 3S platform as a street / GT car. The thing is amazing at turning time into distance. As a long distance highway cruiser, it is one of the fastest and most comfortable cars I've ever driven. Twice now I have departed Gagetown, New Brunswick at 0600 and rolled into Windsor, Ontario before 2300 and felt completely fresh on arrival. Its weight and AWD makes it capable in all weather so you don't have to white-knuckle as much if it gets rainy or icy, and as heavy as it is, Mitsu has worked miracles with the ECS, the RWS, and the split-torque centre diff that makes it handle far more nimbly than it should for its weight. I've had three close calls (including a three-moose slalom) that should have killed me by any rights, but the Stealth made it work. And you can stuff it full of an enormous amount of shit, so I can carry a full deployment-load of kit plus some recreational crap and it all just fits. And the fact that it is utterly unsuited for use as a race car has kept me from disappearing down that rabbit hole again. Gas mileage of 23 Hwy / 11 City isn't great, but it isn't horrible either, and while it has been a bit of a maintenance nightmare, most of that is related to the fact that the previous owner beat it into the ground, more so than any intrinsic flaw.

For going stupid fast more easily and cheaply than anyone should ever have a right to, you cannot beat a used C5 Z06 Corvette. I have never been in a car that has gone that fast, that easily, that cheaply. Vipers and 911s are ultimately faster, but cost way more and are WAY harder to drive. Seriously, anybody who is considering modifying a 3S to go autocrossing or track-day driving needs to try a C5 Z06 first - ideally back-to-back with your 3S. And that's unmodified. Modified, they just get faster but stay easy to drive (except, maybe, with regards to throttle modulation if you go stupid big on the throttle body). I have driven an 1100 HP C5 Z06, and aside from a little learning curve on throttle control, I have never been in a car that had so little drama and went so quickly.

For going racing wheel to wheel, Formula Ford is where it is at. A real formula car, that follows all those rules about car setup that you see in the books, and can be driven hard and often, for a ridiculously cheap outlay and even cheaper regular maintenance. No fucking around with production car bullshit, just a simple set of double-a-arms and a bog simple motor.

But for really learning how to drive, a 125cc kart is just incredible. Almost no maintenance, and what you do have is of a similar order to a fucking bicycle. But ludicrously fast, sequential shift, and almost no setup tricks to learn, mostly just driver ability and driver mass.

I'm also a huge fan of the sponsors I had who kept their word to me and never did anything to make me embarrassed or ashamed. Most of these guys (like TRE transmissions) are more DSM guys, but places like Forced Performance turbos are flat-out awesome and I love them to death. The guys at Bilstein, Penske, and Koni were all great too. GEMS in the UK - great guys. Hypercoils; awesome folks. Claude Rouelle is a complete hoot and is willing to listen to even little guys like me. Carroll Smith was amazing and all his books are required reading (link here: Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Further Reading (http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets17.html) ) Bill Mitchell is a great guy and fun to talk to....

And I haven't even scratched the surface: I raced against some incredible people: Kent Rafferty (RIP) Chris Lindburg (RIP), Bob Tunnell, Vic Sias, Marcus Merideth, Corey the S4 Guy, Bob Endicott, Matthew Braun.... the list is just massive. It's easier to list the assholes (although I won't) because the list of incredible people is just SO much longer. Racers, by and large, are great people. T00ners, in general, SUCK - but people who compete with each other every single weekend tend to be better for it.

I could go on and on and on.

The issue here is that the 3S platform is what it is - a GT. A very GOOD GT, in many ways. But it ain't no race car. And over and over and over again I see guys who are infatuated with race cars talking about their 3S like it could be one too - and demanding race car parts (in kit form, no less) with absolutely no understanding of what that really means. Well, I know what that really means. I learned that lesson the hard way. And anybody who actually listens to what I say will be ultimately better for it (even as I describe EXACTLY how to transform their 3S into something vaguely race car shaped anyway - because if you are going to do it, you might as well do it right).

DG

[MR2]

You have to experience it...to fully understand it


depressingly.

going to have to replace my rear's with DMS's soon too I think, with the fronts being a little stiffer the rears arn't so good.

[niterydr]

If won were to go with a ground control coil over setup and wanted similar street manners, what weight spring would recommend on a nearly stock weight 3/s?
600/432?

Reading more and more, thinking I want to just replace my ECS struts and put on GC coil overs and call it a day.

[Maximal]

I had GC coilovers for a while and they were pretty horrible. The ride was way too stiff and they were also pretty noisey without some sort of helper springs to take up the slack when the suspension unloaded. I don't think I'd feel all that comfortable racing with them.

I'm running the Megans now and after several track days they do their job. They may not be perfectly setup for my car but there are a lot of other things I can do to it before doing that will make it worth it.

Years ago I talked to a company about making custom coilovers for our cars and it got pretty pricey. However, they didn't have off the shelf struts for our cars. Now that Bilstein does maybe it's time to look into it. However on a car by car basis they're going to be just as pricey as already mentioned here.

[2fnloud]

I had GC coilovers for a while and they were pretty horrible. The ride was way too stiff and they were also pretty noisey without some sort of helper springs to take up the slack when the suspension unloaded. I don't think I'd feel all that comfortable racing with them.

I'm running the Megans now and after several track days they do their job. They may not be perfectly setup for my car but there are a lot of other things I can do to it before doing that will make it worth it.



Years ago I talked to a company about making custom coilovers for our cars and it got pretty pricey. However, they didn't have off the shelf struts for our cars. Now that Bilstein does maybe it's time to look into it. However on a car by car basis they're going to be just as pricey as already mentioned here.

I would imagine that C/O sleeves without helper springs is not an option. Do you remember what the spring rates were when you had the G/C sleeves?

[Maximal]

I would imagine that C/O sleeves without helper springs is not an option. Do you remember what the spring rates were when you had the G/C sleeves?

I remember looking them up somewhere back then but I don't remember what they were. I think they were software than I thought they would be with how harsh the ride was.

[DG]

The ride was way too stiff and they were also pretty noisey without some sort of helper springs to take up the slack when the suspension unloaded.

That may be a function of the sprung rate, or something may have been binding somewhere. If springs were rattling around at full droop it is possible that something got cocked over and jammed.

Ground Control's sleeves are really very good and I like their perch clamp system better than anyone's. But I've had entirely less success with their upper mount "solutions". Some are OK, but others are just right out to lunch. So I'm not a huge fan of systems that attempt to cram a standard spring into an OEM spring perch; I'd rather see a proper upper hat and spherical bearing.

But that, as always, adds complexity and cost.

DG

[2fnloud]

That may be a function of the sprung rate, or something may have been binding somewhere. If springs were rattling around at full droop it is possible that something got cocked over and jammed.

Ground Control's sleeves are really very good and I like their perch clamp system better than anyone's. But I've had entirely less success with their upper mount "solutions". Some are OK, but others are just right out to lunch. So I'm not a huge fan of systems that attempt to cram a standard spring into an OEM spring perch; I'd rather see a proper upper hat and spherical bearing.

But that, as always, adds complexity and cost.

DG


Perhaps we should contact AMR about getting said proper upper hats with a spherical bearing.

[2fnloud]

This is the upper hat that he developed for the Saturn S series:

http://www.amrengineering.com/assets/images/88_1_thumb.jpg

[J. Fast]

They have very nice tooling. Absolutely beautiful machine work. I haven't seen any reviews other than google info on Honda and 240 boards so I wouldn't trust it. Their Evo converted pieces look really nice, and they are spherical bearing upgraded, but looks good and performs good are two different things. Anyone have more links or tech review info?

[2fnloud]

I could link you to the raves that the Saturn owners have with them. I dropped out of the Saturn scene right after he made the coil-overs, front strut bar, rear strut bar. for the S-series Saturn. I owned one of his rear strut bars....excellent craftsmanship.

[DG]

but looks good and performs good are two different things.

I usually just buy one and see what it takes to break it. Having access to a press can be fun!

Note that upper hats on front McStruts can be tricky. You want to build in camber/caster adjustability and the thing has to rotate smoothly in the steering axis - and I don't think a single spherical bearing cuts it. The common sort of design I've seen really doesn't pass muster; there needs to be a separate bearing on the steering axis, and the camber/caster slots should feature positive stops instead of just relying on clamping power (six allen bolts pinching down is evidence that the thing moves)

DG

[2fnloud]

I usually just buy one and see what it takes to break it. Having access to a press can be fun!

Note that upper hats on front McStruts can be tricky. You want to build in camber/caster adjustability and the thing has to rotate smoothly in the steering axis - and I don't think a single spherical bearing cuts it. The common sort of design I've seen really doesn't pass muster; there needs to be a separate bearing on the steering axis, and the camber/caster slots should feature positive stops instead of just relying on clamping power (six allen bolts pinching down is evidence that the thing moves)



DG


I only count four and there is no mention if there is or is not stops or grooves on the mating surfaces to prevent slipping.

[anyonebutme]

I usually just buy one and see what it takes to break it. Having access to a press can be fun!

Note that upper hats on front McStruts can be tricky. You want to build in camber/caster adjustability and the thing has to rotate smoothly in the steering axis - and I don't think a single spherical bearing cuts it. The common sort of design I've seen really doesn't pass muster; there needs to be a separate bearing on the steering axis, and the camber/caster slots should feature positive stops instead of just relying on clamping power (six allen bolts pinching down is evidence that the thing moves)

DG

I agree.

1 word: Vorshlag. Lowest stack height, separate bearing on underside for steering, largest pillowball out there, and ability to have them in non-adjustable config (popular with us spec class peeps) so no worry about adjustment slipping. Not to mention they are a bunch of great guys and being down the street from AST USA. Mine for my next setup are from them.

[2fnloud]

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/498308677_4tb9P-L.jpg

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/398642289_jBTXq-L.jpg

other than those have adjustable camber

[j2k4]

I agree.

1 word: Vorshlag....Not to mention they are a bunch of great guys and being down the street from AST USA.

Better geographic location = cheating.

It's just that simple. :)

[DG]

The steering bearing looks OK (as much as one can see from a picture)

But that camber adjustment method.... I'd have raised bosses on the lower plate that passed through the slots on the lower plate. Then I'd have one (if I can bridge the bosses) or two (if I can't) lateral adjustment screws with a locknut that threaded into either the bridge or the bosses themselves to positively control the camber setting. That way you can both micro-adjust the camber to set it to whatever precision you need on the alignment rack, and there is absolutely no way it can slip.

None of this "bolt two flat surfaces together, load them in shear, and hope for the best" crap.

DG

[zelstin]

Hey DG/others, I know how much you love Japanese coilovers but what do you think about HKS Hypermax Pro's? I picked up an Evo 8/9 set with swift 10k and 8k springs dirt cheap and I really don't know what to expect.

[DG]

Don't install them before you have them dynoed and the springs rate checked.

Then post the data.

DG

[2fnloud]

DG,

do you still have access to Dyno shocks?

[B-Man]

Steve, if he doesn't, I plan to give these guys a call when I'm ready to do something with shock dynos. They're maybe 10min from where I work if you want me to shuttle anything across the state. I've heard good things about them from BMW guys.

Kaz Technologies (http://www.kaztechnologies.com/)




Dyno test 4 shocks at 3 adjustment settings


Test your shocks at three adjustment settings to see the range of forces available.

We will first test each of the shocks as received. Then, we will test each shock at the low, mid and high adjustment settings. This will provide you with the force data at your starting settings, and information on the range of forces available from your dampers. A report on shock condition and performance will be included with the data.

We have clevis mounts to test most racing shocks with mono ball ends. Please call or write about other fixtures.


Price: $245

[2fnloud]

Steve, if he doesn't, I plan to give these guys a call when I'm ready to do something with shock dynos. They're maybe 10min from where I work if you want me to shuttle anything across the state. I've heard good things about them from BMW guys.

Kaz Technologies (http://www.kaztechnologies.com/)

Great to know, this would allow a more educated decision in selecting spring rates. Price seems more than fair.

[DG]

do you still have access to Dyno shocks?

Nope. Not much call for a shock dyno in the Army.


Price: $245

Holy crap!

I charged... I think it was $25/shock for a full low speed rebound sweep plus a couple of high speed traces. If you had doubles it was a little more. And I didn't charge for fixtures because I figured I'd use it again eventually.

DG

[a2j]

D2 any better than Megan or Ksport?

[anyonebutme]

D2 any better than Megan or Ksport?

No, based just on availability of info, Megan wins of those 3.

[DG]

D2 any better than Megan or Ksport?

Sorta like a choice between shit, piss, or vomit as a topping on your pizza.

DG

[IPD]

Sorta like a choice between shit, piss, or vomit as a topping on your pizza.

DG

fairly convinced ^ this guy also buys monster cables.

[DG]

Based on your past postings, your observations on what you are or are not convinced of have very little technical merit. So why continue interjecting them into other people's serious discussions?

Are you that starved for attention?

DG

[IPD]

Based on your past postings, your observations on what you are or are not convinced of have very little technical merit. So why continue interjecting them into other people's serious discussions?

Are you that starved for attention?

DG

based on your past postings, if you were an audiophile, anyone who doesn't pay $120 for gold-plated stereo cables would be "buying junk" in your eyes. this...regardless of the sound quality being of "acceptable" caliber to those individual listeners.

oh, and if someone didn't want to pay an arm & a leg for $120 cables, they would have to source each component cable and each individual cable plug separately.

[B-Man]

based on your past postings, if you were an audiophile, anyone who doesn't pay $120 for gold-plated stereo cables would be "buying junk" in your eyes. this...regardless of the sound quality being of "acceptable" caliber to those individual listeners.

oh, and if someone didn't want to pay an arm & a leg for $120 cables, they would have to source each component cable and each individual cable plug separately.

:scratch: Not at all what I took from any of his posts.

[DocWalt]

IPD, the problem is to get something quality on this platform you need to either build it or adapt something else. If you don't want to do that you have to deal with the shortcomings of the parts that are available. There are no great bolt on suspension bits for 3SGTOs, the KWs are close and probably suitable for 90% of owners. I've ridden Megans and they're too stiff IMO for daily usage, and I doubt their valves on the 3S are magical compared to any other Megan so they're not going to be good on the track either. They're just a cheap coilover setup for looks and improved handling over worn out stock suspension.

FWIW, my brother has shitty $350 Raceland coilovers on his Mk2 Golf and it handles better than stock... It's not because of the coilovers, it's because he swapped all the bushings for poly bushings and spent the time to corner balance the car within a few percent. It still doesn't handle acceptably IMO, but better than 200k mile blown struts/shocks.

[Uniuno]

Where do the Tein's fall on that pizza? Somewhere in the range of earwax to boogers maybe? I was thinking either Teins or Megans.. I don't have the time or patience for the Bilstein setup..

[Maximal]

Where do the Tein's fall on that pizza? Somewhere in the range of earwax to boogers maybe? I was thinking either Teins or Megans.. I don't have the time or patience for the Bilstein setup..

Problems with either are far and few between but I have heard of more issues with the Teins. In my opinion they're pretty on par with each other so you might as well save some cash and go with the Megans. I've tracked mine quiet a bit and are happy with the way they perform and have been holding up.

[DocWalt]

I've heard nothing but bad things about TEINs

[Uniuno]

Megans are even on sale right now.. hard to beat 850 bucks

Foot in mouth edit

[BigTyla]

If you want an opinion on Teins, VR4Rob would be a good person to ask. As I said before, I can ask for a ride in his car and compare it to my old 3S with Ksports (trash). I haven't been in his car since he got them installed a year ago but he seems to like them quite a bit. I've heard mixed reviews myself.

[DG]

if you were an audiophile, anyone who doesn't pay $120 for gold-plated stereo cables would be "buying junk" in your eyes. this...regardless of the sound quality being of "acceptable" caliber to those individual listeners.

oh, and if someone didn't want to pay an arm & a leg for $120 cables, they would have to source each component cable and each individual cable plug separately.

Ah, OK.

Well then, let's run with this analogy:

Let's assume that I am, in fact, an audiophile. How would I determine which cables to run?

Let's assume a digital source (like HDMI) into an amp, then an analogue, high-level powered source into the speakers.

For the digital signal, I know that all the cable has to do is convey a logic high and logic low. As long as the cable is not introducing noise strong enough to trigger a low into a high or vice versa (which is so much noise that the cable is probably broken or acting as an antenna) then the signal is, for all intents and purposes, perfect. A cheap, basic cable will do the job just fine. Any gold-plating, copper conductors, heavier gauge wire etc on a digital cable is completely superfluous and is an increase in price for no benefit. In shock terms, this is the choice between the OEM Z06 shock (basic cable) and a set of Penskes adjusted to produce OEM forces (Monster Cable).

For the analogue cable, I'd do a quick calculation equating the peak RMS power I expected to run through those cables as a function of voltage and resistance. I'd then spec out a cable that could transmit that much power, and buy the cheapest thing that met that spec. Then I'd connect a frequency generator to the amp, connect a mike to a frequency analyzer and put the mike about where I'd expect to sit when listening to the system. I'd then step through a frequency range and adjust the equalizer on the amp so that, given the same strength input, to produce the same volume at the listening point across the frequency range. For bonus points, I might even consider using the results of my last hearing test to attenuate the frequencies I have trouble hearing, so as to produce a flat response to my ears instead of a pure flat response.

If I was having trouble doing that across the spectrum, I might suspect the cable. If that were the case, I'd hook up a dual-trace scope - one input at the head of the cable, one at the tail - and overlay the traces on each other. If there was a real difference in the traces, that would mean the cable was inducing error and I'd replace the cable with something better. But if the waveforms are identical, or the tail is identical in profile but slightly less in amplitude than the head, then the cable is fine and it is either the amp or the speakers at fault.

How I'd test the amp and speakers we can omit, because we are talking cables here after all.

What I would NOT do is go out and buy Monster Cable because they are shiny and/or expensive. I TEST my shit and make decisions based on the indicators in the data.

It is the Megans, Teins, JIC, Buddy Club etc that are the "Monster Cables" here. Shiny, grossly overpriced for what you are getting, and ultimately, ineffective (and, I might add, with their dedicated fan clubs notwithstanding the evidence). The basic cable that gets the job done as cheaply as possible is the OEM ECS shock, or the Bilstein.

And as far as sourcing parts go, our example amp was made by Onkyo between 1992 and 1999, and in small numbers. While it has all the key features desired in an amp, the digital inputs on this amp use a proprietary Onkyo connector designed for a short-lived attempt at building a competitor for the iPod. The connectors are electrically identical to HDMI, but use an Onkyo-specific socket that was never adopted by the rest of the market. Accordingly, the only way to get an HDMI signal into our rare amp is to have custom cables made, using an HDMI to leads cable from Digi-Key mated to a surplus Onkyo plug from OnkyoSX.com. No matter how much we beg and plead to Radio Shack to build a pre-assembled cable for us, they aren't interested in building one-stop-shopping cables for an out of production amp owned by a handful of diehard fans. The only way to get the cable we need is to source the parts separately.

I've stretched that analogy about as far as it can go.... but you get the picture. Or at least, you should, if you are capable of logical reasoning.

DG

[2fnloud]

If you want an opinion on Teins, VR4Rob would be a good person to ask. As I said before, I can ask for a ride in his car and compare it to my old 3S with Ksports (trash). I haven't been in his car since he got them installed a year ago but he seems to like them quite a bit. I've heard mixed reviews myself.

I can not help but wonder if those "mixed" reviews are from improperly set-up systems on the car. stiffest setting and lowest ride height is not the best option.

[CoopKill]

DG :ninja:

:lmao:

[j2k4]

Thadd-

Dennis ate your lunch, there. :)

[FeaRpb]

:golfclap:

[JustinIsLegend]

So...I've read this whole thing now over the past hour, clicked numerous links and am just wondering if anyone can compile a preset list of parts for me?

I am new to this and just don't want to purchase bad parts or setups

I just want my wheels to be semi flush with the fenders, I currently have stock everything except Tien S Tech springs which just don't provide enough LOW

So I really just want something that will provide a comfortable ride, maintain at least as good as stock handling, and effectively be able to lower the car without being in danger of ruining anything...

simple right?

What i've gotten out of this so far is you would want;
GC sleeves or Bilstein Sleeves (what was the difference here? were the GC ones easier to install?) explanation or...re-explanation in a simplified way would be great
Bilstein Shocks (I believe I read you have to cut the OEM shock assembly in the fronts to slide this in and make it work?)
Hypertech springs

Also what are helper springs and would these be needed for just a street car?

As well as a camber kit...? is camber adjustable just through the coilovers themself? i'm really getting confused when looking at all the premade and DIY options as some look similar and some look totally different and then SOME assembled kits have parts on them that aren't listed and you're just supposed to know that

and the spring perch...do spring perch come with coilover sleeves? or are they seperate? and what are they used for exactly?

I would GREATLY appreciate it if anyone had the time to help me with this, I've read everything and have gathered what I can but there are just a few loose ends I have to figure out before I fully understand this and what i am doing and just don't want to jump into it until I am sure

[j2k4]

So...I've read this whole thing now over the past hour, clicked numerous links and am just wondering if anyone can compile a preset list of parts for me?

I am new to this and just don't want to purchase bad parts or setups

I just want my wheels to be semi flush with the fenders, I currently have stock everything except Tien S Tech springs which just don't provide enough LOW

So I really just want something that will provide a comfortable ride, maintain at least as good as stock handling, and effectively be able to lower the car without being in danger of ruining anything...

simple right?

What i've gotten out of this so far is you would want;
GC sleeves or Bilstein Sleeves (what was the difference here? were the GC ones easier to install?) explanation or...re-explanation in a simplified way would be great
Bilstein Shocks (I believe I read you have to cut the OEM shock assembly in the fronts to slide this in and make it work?)
Hypertech springs

Also what are helper springs and would these be needed for just a street car?

As well as a camber kit...? is camber adjustable just through the coilovers themself? i'm really getting confused when looking at all the premade and DIY options as some look similar and some look totally different and then SOME assembled kits have parts on them that aren't listed and you're just supposed to know that

and the spring perch...do spring perch come with coilover sleeves? or are they seperate? and what are they used for exactly?

I would GREATLY appreciate it if anyone had the time to help me with this, I've read everything and have gathered what I can but there are just a few loose ends I have to figure out before I fully understand this and what i am doing and just don't want to jump into it until I am sure

Oh, man. :)

[DG]

The Gods help those who helps themselves:

Product Information (http://www.bilsteinus.com/downloads/product-information.html)

Happy reading.

DG

[JustinIsLegend]

That's how I figured it would go, bunch of people who asked the questions before and now are too good to help others. Thanks anyway, guess i'll take my search elsewhere.

[DocWalt]

That's how I figured it would go, bunch of people who asked the questions before and now are too good to help others. Thanks anyway, guess i'll take my search elsewhere.

http://www.3sgto.org/f17/bilstein-install-hd-struts-3675.html

That with some good lowering springs. If you want to slam your car and forego any handling buy some cheap Megans and drop it. If you want handling, buy some KWs or if you want the very best handling buy SCEs adapters and respring/revalve some high end Evo struts/shocks for a 3s.

[JustinIsLegend]

http://www.3sgto.org/f17/bilstein-install-hd-struts-3675.html

That with some good lowering springs. If you want to slam your car and forego any handling buy some cheap Megans and drop it. If you want handling, buy some KWs or if you want the very best handling buy SCEs adapters and respring/revalve some high end Evo struts/shocks for a 3s.

I'm having the pieces professionally put together and installed by a buddy of mine, so that part i'm definitely aware of, my only real concern is, Do the perches come with the coil sleeve, the strut? or are they bought seperate? and what exactly are they used for

let's just start there so I don't overwhelm the car gods with questions -_- I'm not going to be filling this thread up with already answered questions I just have a few things i'm confused about that I want to get covered by a group of people that I trust to lead me down the right path

[J. Fast]

Hold on a minute here and lets not get too far ahead of ourselves. The question was asked about lowering the ride height more than a Tein S tech? If my memory serves me correcly that drops the stock height roughly 1 1/2"? You're in a completely different realm when you're pushing it lower. You start toying with significant ride height deviations and you're going to change the roll center and a few other portions of the geometry. Everything starts getting a little more fucked up when you add the toe adjustment from the all wheel steering. If you're shooting for lower you need more armiture adjustment points or should modify the subframe to correct the geometry. I would actually hedge a $100 bet to anyone with a tein or megan coilover. Set rideheight to stock, set ride height to 1" lower, and set rideheight to 2" lower. Don't change any dampening... I bet the lowest setting isn't the fastest. Not only that but when you lean on it I bet it gets sloppy and you start understeering terribly and chewing the shit out of the shoulder of the front tires.

Wouldn't you know it on that Bilstein link DG posted Mitsubishi has an off the shelf Evo PSS9 (B12). You can customize the valving and springs :bigthumb:. That's about as easy as it's going to get unless you want to modify a perch or take a strut apart if you want to adapt a Bilstein.

Get away from the mindset that the lower you make your car the better it will handle and the faster you will go. There's additional adjustments that need to be considered and compensated to actually make a car faster. I'd actually hedge a another bet on stock ECS that says on hard setting a car lowered 1" is faster than one lowered 2" or more, or one with stock ride height.

If you're after performance there's lots to consider. If you're after looks, slam it, it doesnt matter!

[anyonebutme]

You are not going to have good handling when you slam our cars, just not possible without redesigning the subframe/suspension pickup points. You are going to have to give up something somewhere. The lower you go the stiffer it has to be to stop bottoming, and that doesn't take into account the geometry that goes screwball when you slam a car. From what it sounds to me, what you are looking for are just simple lowering springs on stock ECS or bilstein inserts. Megan and Intrax are the lowest drop of the drop-in springs.

Note: I've ridden in a GC equipped 3S, and as the kit comes, it rode like complete ass and was borderline dangerous without helper springs. Without shortening the shock or adding helpers, the ride is extremely "bumpy" as the car just bounces on top of the spring, and adds the potential of spring jacking over bumps or when the suspension unloads.

[edit]: looks like I type too slow

[J. Fast]

Agreed, when your tires leave the pavement unintentionally in a turn you'll pucker your ass real quick and prolly go farming!

[vr4tune]

And as far as sourcing parts go, our example amp was made by Onkyo between 1992 and 1999, and in small numbers. While it has all the key features desired in an amp, the digital inputs on this amp use a proprietary Onkyo connector designed for a short-lived attempt at building a competitor for the iPod. The connectors are electrically identical to HDMI, but use an Onkyo-specific socket that was never adopted by the rest of the market. Accordingly, the only way to get an HDMI signal into our rare amp is to have custom cables made, using an HDMI to leads cable from Digi-Key mated to a surplus Onkyo plug from OnkyoSX.com. No matter how much we beg and plead to Radio Shack to build a pre-assembled cable for us, they aren't interested in building one-stop-shopping cables for an out of production amp owned by a handful of diehard fans. The only way to get the cable we need is to source the parts separately.

I've stretched that analogy about as far as it can go.... but you get the picture. Or at least, you should, if you are capable of logical reasoning.

DG


Sounds like AMR is that radio shack you've been wanting.

[JustinIsLegend]

Hold on a minute here and lets not get too far ahead of ourselves. The question was asked about lowering the ride height more than a Tein S tech? If my memory serves me correcly that drops the stock height roughly 1 1/2"? You're in a completely different realm when you're pushing it lower. You start toying with significant ride height deviations and you're going to change the roll center and a few other portions of the geometry. Everything starts getting a little more fucked up when you add the toe adjustment from the all wheel steering. If you're shooting for lower you need more armiture adjustment points or should modify the subframe to correct the geometry. I would actually hedge a $100 bet to anyone with a tein or megan coilover. Set rideheight to stock, set ride height to 1" lower, and set rideheight to 2" lower. Don't change any dampening... I bet the lowest setting isn't the fastest. Not only that but when you lean on it I bet it gets sloppy and you start understeering terribly and chewing the shit out of the shoulder of the front tires.

Wouldn't you know it on that Bilstein link DG posted Mitsubishi has an off the shelf Evo PSS9 (B12). You can customize the valving and springs :bigthumb:. That's about as easy as it's going to get unless you want to modify a perch or take a strut apart if you want to adapt a Bilstein.

Get away from the mindset that the lower you make your car the better it will handle and the faster you will go. There's additional adjustments that need to be considered and compensated to actually make a car faster. I'd actually hedge a another bet on stock ECS that says on hard setting a car lowered 1" is faster than one lowered 2" or more, or one with stock ride height.

If you're after performance there's lots to consider. If you're after looks, slam it, it doesnt matter!


I didn't say I wanted to make it perform better for one...I said I want to close the wheel gap a bit...

Realistically i'd only go an inch lower than the Tien S Techs which are only...1.5" ? I go to meets regularly and see a ton of people in the 3S crowd that go lower than 1.5" safely, I'm not trying to roll the fenders and slam the car to the ground

This is realistically probably slightly lower than I would want to be, and i'm not getting that kind of drop with springs
http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu203/timmm36/acf066e6.jpg

Is it unrealistic to say my car could go that low with coilovers without massive adjustments and changing everything? I don't mind USING THE FUNCTIONS on the coil overs...otherwise why are the adjustments there?

and i'm not tracking or sliding this car, is the above picture too low for daily driving?

[MR2]

depending on your local roads...yes.

my car wasn't even lowered and it gave me shits when on Teins(was actually lifted compared to Teins recommendation) the reason you probably see more problems with Teins over other Coil-overs is due to Market share aka the shear shitload of them floating around on people's cars.

[IPD]

Ah, OK.

Well then, let's run with this analogy:

Let's assume that I am, in fact, an audiophile. How would I determine which cables to run?

Let's assume a digital source (like HDMI) into an amp, then an analogue, high-level powered source into the speakers.

For the digital signal, I know that all the cable has to do is convey a logic high and logic low. As long as the cable is not introducing noise strong enough to trigger a low into a high or vice versa (which is so much noise that the cable is probably broken or acting as an antenna) then the signal is, for all intents and purposes, perfect. A cheap, basic cable will do the job just fine. Any gold-plating, copper conductors, heavier gauge wire etc on a digital cable is completely superfluous and is an increase in price for no benefit. In shock terms, this is the choice between the OEM Z06 shock (basic cable) and a set of Penskes adjusted to produce OEM forces (Monster Cable).

For the analogue cable, I'd do a quick calculation equating the peak RMS power I expected to run through those cables as a function of voltage and resistance. I'd then spec out a cable that could transmit that much power, and buy the cheapest thing that met that spec. Then I'd connect a frequency generator to the amp, connect a mike to a frequency analyzer and put the mike about where I'd expect to sit when listening to the system. I'd then step through a frequency range and adjust the equalizer on the amp so that, given the same strength input, to produce the same volume at the listening point across the frequency range. For bonus points, I might even consider using the results of my last hearing test to attenuate the frequencies I have trouble hearing, so as to produce a flat response to my ears instead of a pure flat response.

If I was having trouble doing that across the spectrum, I might suspect the cable. If that were the case, I'd hook up a dual-trace scope - one input at the head of the cable, one at the tail - and overlay the traces on each other. If there was a real difference in the traces, that would mean the cable was inducing error and I'd replace the cable with something better. But if the waveforms are identical, or the tail is identical in profile but slightly less in amplitude than the head, then the cable is fine and it is either the amp or the speakers at fault.

How I'd test the amp and speakers we can omit, because we are talking cables here after all.

What I would NOT do is go out and buy Monster Cable because they are shiny and/or expensive. I TEST my shit and make decisions based on the indicators in the data.

It is the Megans, Teins, JIC, Buddy Club etc that are the "Monster Cables" here. Shiny, grossly overpriced for what you are getting, and ultimately, ineffective (and, I might add, with their dedicated fan clubs notwithstanding the evidence). The basic cable that gets the job done as cheaply as possible is the OEM ECS shock, or the Bilstein.

And as far as sourcing parts go, our example amp was made by Onkyo between 1992 and 1999, and in small numbers. While it has all the key features desired in an amp, the digital inputs on this amp use a proprietary Onkyo connector designed for a short-lived attempt at building a competitor for the iPod. The connectors are electrically identical to HDMI, but use an Onkyo-specific socket that was never adopted by the rest of the market. Accordingly, the only way to get an HDMI signal into our rare amp is to have custom cables made, using an HDMI to leads cable from Digi-Key mated to a surplus Onkyo plug from OnkyoSX.com. No matter how much we beg and plead to Radio Shack to build a pre-assembled cable for us, they aren't interested in building one-stop-shopping cables for an out of production amp owned by a handful of diehard fans. The only way to get the cable we need is to source the parts separately.

I've stretched that analogy about as far as it can go.... but you get the picture. Or at least, you should, if you are capable of logical reasoning.

DG

completely missed the part where the non-audiophile buys the $20 component cable to replace the non-functioning OEM $10 cable because it provides a signal acceptable to him--regardless of factors that require a degree in electronic engineering to compute.

i'm happy for you that you "test your shit". and when someone is looking for the absolute hard-line facts about what is unequivocally "the best hands down", i'm sure your input will be of indispensable value to them. meanwhile, there are people who don't have OEM shit to use, and to whom going down to wally-world & buying a cheapo analog cable is sufficiently capable enough to outweigh the hassle of assembling piecemeal. perfect solution? no. acceptable performance for non-discriminating people who don't want to dick with the time and possibly expense of piece by piece assembly? most certainly.

it's the same reason why most computers are sold pre-assembled still today. can you get faster/better by doing it yourself? possibly. does that invalidate the market for pre-made computers? last time i checked, dell & HP were still far outselling newegg & tiger-direct.

again, i'm glad for your input. what i don't care for--and isn't serving any purpose other than to thump your own chest--is the elitist attitude that anyone who DOESN'T shop like you shop...is an idiot.

[JustinIsLegend]

So...for being able to still take normal turns...not punching it around turns, driving normally on the freeway, mostly on flat roads...etc what do you think the lowest you could lower a car on coil overs without messing everything up would be, VS stock ride height...would 2" be alright? or 2.5" maybe? I just want it at least a little lower, and need new shocks anyway...and like the idea of getting some bilstein shocks, and at that point may as well just make some coil overs for a few hundred extra..

This is my car right now on Tein S Techs...

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/401064_3020249138030_1016727363_3000605_89257901_n .jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/424770_3020251098079_1016727363_3000607_615567818_ n.jpg

There are angles where it looks very flush but just being next to it there's like 2-3 fingers gap, and not from the top of the sidewall, from the top of the tread

[JustinIsLegend]

completely missed the part where the non-audiophile buys the $20 component cable to replace the non-functioning OEM $10 cable because it provides a signal acceptable to him--regardless of factors that require a degree in electronic engineering to compute.

i'm happy for you that you "test your shit". and when someone is looking for the absolute hard-line facts about what is unequivocally "the best hands down", i'm sure your input will be of indispensable value to them. meanwhile, there are people who don't have OEM shit to use, and to whom going down to wally-world & buying a cheapo analog cable is sufficiently capable enough to outweigh the hassle of assembling piecemeal. perfect solution? no. acceptable performance for non-discriminating people who don't want to dick with the time and possibly expense of piece by piece assembly? most certainly.

it's the same reason why most computers are sold pre-assembled still today. can you get faster/better by doing it yourself? possibly. does that invalidate the market for pre-made computers? last time i checked, dell & HP were still far outselling newegg & tiger-direct.

again, i'm glad for your input. what i don't care for--and isn't serving any purpose other than to thump your own chest--is the elitist attitude that anyone who DOESN'T shop like you shop...is an idiot.

This guy has more experience with suspension than you have with breathing air i'd bet, just let this die, he has a lot of verifiable evidence to support his claim that stuff made for the masses sucks...and I will even go as far as to say if you spend 2x as much on junk that you haven't tested yourself that you are in fact an idiot, at least he says it nicely and shows charts to ease people going down bad paths back onto the right one

[DG]

I haven't measured the 3S suspension specifically, but you can typically get 1" to maybe as much as 1.5" lower without compromising handling. That's the range of travel intended to compensation for load variations. Remember, the car was designed to handle well both with a tiny chick driving on a nearly empty tank and with 4 Americans in the car, a full tank, and a full load of luggage.

Once you get much lower than that through, the suspension starts moving into an operating range where the designer thought you would only get to with a fully loaded car plus a violent manouvre and possibly a big bump. The geometry is going to become increasingly compromised, handling will go off, tires will be chewed (especially if they are wide) and on top of that, you'll find there are driveways you can't enter any more.

If you look at modern cars, you'll see that the fender bodywork extends lower than it did on cars from the 90s. A modern M3, for example, has just as much suspension travel as an older one, but they've extended the fender lip down to cover the wheel gap.

The true solution to reducing wheel gap IS NOT lowering the suspension - at least, not below that 1-1.5" range I mentioned earlier. The true solution is some custom body work to do a set of fender flares (or something similar) to cover the gap while leaving the suspension travel unmolested.

If you look at pictures of my race car, you'll notice that is wasn't slammed. I DID measure and model that suspension, I knew exactly how much travel I needed (I had sensors on each wheel measuring it) and the car was set at exactly the right height to give me this travel without compromising the geometry and making the car worse. That wound up being higher than expected, and much higher than the typical slammed out riceboi. Plus it made the car easier to load on the trailer.

If you want the slammed look, you don't want to lower the suspension, you want to change the bodywork.


just let this die

I knew he wouldn't. In fact, he is so predictable that a won a bet. Lunch is on IPD!

DG

[J. Fast]

completely missed the part where the non-audiophile buys the $20 component cable to replace the non-functioning OEM $10 cable because it provides a signal acceptable to him--regardless of factors that require a degree in electronic engineering to compute.

i'm happy for you that you "test your shit". and when someone is looking for the absolute hard-line facts about what is unequivocally "the best hands down", i'm sure your input will be of indispensable value to them. meanwhile, there are people who don't have OEM shit to use, and to whom going down to wally-world & buying a cheapo analog cable is sufficiently capable enough to outweigh the hassle of assembling piecemeal. perfect solution? no. acceptable performance for non-discriminating people who don't want to dick with the time and possibly expense of piece by piece assembly? most certainly.

it's the same reason why most computers are sold pre-assembled still today. can you get faster/better by doing it yourself? possibly. does that invalidate the market for pre-made computers? last time i checked, dell & HP were still far outselling newegg & tiger-direct.

again, i'm glad for your input. what i don't care for--and isn't serving any purpose other than to thump your own chest--is the elitist attitude that anyone who DOESN'T shop like you shop...is an idiot.

He's not saying everyone's an "idiot" Thadd. He's plainly stating suspension companies have done a fantastic job with their marketing. The customer base has been ill informed. If you push past all the smoke and mirrors and look at the shock dynes and piles of damaged ball joints, subframe bushings, and suspension end links, not to mention the truck loads of tires that get thrown out after being used for 25% of their MFR specifed mileage, it's plain as day. Add to that, shock manufactures are so smart... they even post tire data that leads consumers to believe they've shitty tires, when in fact the wear is likely caused by a poorly setup or maintained suspension. If it isn't bad enough, the tires guys get you for a set of replacement tires and come right back and blame it on the shock guys.

Being ill informed doesn't make you an idiot. It makes you "ill informed". Additionally, consumers who rock cheap coilovers quite often are function/performance driven. It's okay to be informed and not care or willing to drop the coin for something with more performance, as it's a tradeoff for some. However, don't try to argue their "awesome" or "okay" with consumers looking for performance who consider words like "great" and "exceptional" to mean more than "good enough".


So...for being able to still take normal turns...not punching it around turns, driving normally on the freeway, mostly on flat roads...etc what do you think the lowest you could lower a car on coil overs without messing everything up would be, VS stock ride height...would 2" be alright? or 2.5" maybe? I just want it at least a little lower, and need new shocks anyway...and like the idea of getting some bilstein shocks, and at that point may as well just make some coil overs for a few hundred extra..

This is my car right now on Tein S Techs...

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/401064_3020249138030_1016727363_3000605_89257901_n .jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/424770_3020251098079_1016727363_3000607_615567818_ n.jpg

There are angles where it looks very flush but just being next to it there's like 2-3 fingers gap, and not from the top of the sidewall, from the top of the tread

With the drop you're looking for you're basically sacrificing nearly 75% of the designed wheel travel. To keep the shocks off the bump stops it's going to be a rough ride. You can do whatever you want if you can afford to put tires on every other oil change because they wear excessively. Also plan on nut and bolting your car every couple of weeks and increasing your mainenance intervals on the chassi and suspension links as well. IMHO if you're looking for a drop that robs you of 25% of the effective wheel travel you need to change more that just the shocks if you want to see any performance gains.

[a2j]

so, Tein coilovers with EDFC or stock ECS with Stein sprints for DD and occasional "light" road course?
PS: I also have '06 civic with tein suspension. I really like ride and handling.

[B-Man]

Wouldn't you know it on that Bilstein link DG posted Mitsubishi has an off the shelf Evo PSS9 (B12). You can customize the valving and springs :bigthumb:. That's about as easy as it's going to get unless you want to modify a perch or take a strut apart if you want to adapt a Bilstein.


F4-GM5-8642-H1 MITSUBISHI VII/VIII PSS9 $2,948.00

Not exactly the cost effective option.

[J. Fast]

F4-GM5-8642-H1 MITSUBISHI VII/VIII PSS9 $2,948.00

Not exactly the cost effective option.

They are $1800 shipped thru Rally Armor :)

[Jimvr4]

I'm on stock ECS with Tein S Tech fronts and Tein H Tech rears, the mix is intended to keep the rear from squatting to low on the Spyder:
http://jns.jimnshar.com/1c1e03f0.jpg

Initial application retained the stock upper control arms which allowed less than -1 degree of camber on the rears. I kept having a problem with the passenger rear corner on bumps and hard acceleration where the inside edge of the fender was cutting into the sidewall of my 255x18x40 RE760 tires.

Last month I installed 3SX adjustable upper arms and adjusted camber to -2.5 degrees and I no longer have rubbing in the rear. I might be running a little more negative than required. The way I sorted out the rubbing was to put the car on jackstands, disconnect the rear strut and jack the wheel up until it started touching the fender and I could see the geometry wasn't working.

I don't think I can possibly go any lower without needing even more negative camber to avoid rolling the fender. But I don't need to anyhow - with the current setup and camber I have only 1 finger gap. Here are recent pics showing my stance. Ride and handling are great now and I like the look too.
http://jns.jimnshar.com/32000a80.jpg

http://jns.jimnshar.com/2fb00a80.jpg

[Maximal]

I can get those Bilstein setups for a fair amount cheaper than MSRP also...

[B-Man]

They are $1800 shipped thru Rally Armor :)

Plus revalving, new springs and SCE adapters...... You're basically at KW3 prices.

[DG]

No, BILSTEIN coilovers or Stock ECS with GC coilovers if coilovers are a must.

Forget Tein. Forget JIC, Buddy Clube, Megans or any else of that crap.

DG

[HLxDrummer]

So what is so bad about Megans/etc. compared to Bilstein coilovers? Valving? Can't that be changed? Seems like the only real functional parts are the springs and dampers (which consist of what, gas/liquid, piston, and valves)?

You think the handling of a ECS car with S-techs is better than that of a Megan car?

[DG]

So what is so bad about Megans/etc. compared to Bilstein coilovers?

4 Megan shocks, same part numbers, same internal parts - but 4 different force levels.

4 Bilstein shocks, same part numbers, same internal parts, forces match within 1%.

DG

[HLxDrummer]

4 Megan shocks, same part numbers, same internal parts - but 4 different force levels.

4 Bilstein shocks, same part numbers, same internal parts, forces match within 1%.

DG

Oh ya, that's right. I'm not very good at reading the dyno results but I'm guessing even the improved varibility between Megans in comparison to Ksports is too much? Could this be resolved by sending them to the company mention in this thread to have them rebuilt/revavled or is it in the design?

Thanks!

[J. Fast]

Why you take down the "crap shock" page on Far North with all the dyno charts? Big MFR with expensive laywer pay ransome for you to take it down? If you could show them the dyne's they would understand... :lo5l:

[J. Fast]

There used to be a list, and when I say list I mean "A-List" or "The List" of crap. It listed all JIC, Tein, Megan, KSport... blah blah shocks and their dyno specs, full sets. It was an absolute embarassment to any of those shock MFR's. I bet they paid some lawyer to go on a witch hunt to find Denis and that's why he took it down. You guys are ill informed and that's all I'm going to say about that.

[J. Fast]

I can get those Bilstein setups for a fair amount cheaper than MSRP also...

Hey hey, PM me price for PSS9 and 10 /12 H &R springs.

[DG]

Why you take down the "crap shock" page on Far North with all the dyno charts?

It's still there.

People's memories are odd; I never did have a chart of Manufacturer : Dyno Chart like people think I did. But I do have examples of Shocks Behaving Badly and what I consider "behaving badly" really means. That has remained unchanged.

There's no value to naming names because really, they're interchangeable. It is easier (and less lawyerific) to name the good ones instead - because there are far less of them.

The problems are endemic to quality control and design. They cannot be fixed.

DG

[j2k4]

The problems are endemic to quality control and design..

Marketing!


They cannot be fixed.

Not fixed, but avoided.



It's just another of the "wallet-issues" confronting 3S owners. :)

[Rakuny]

why people are willing to blow $2k+ on 18" rims and tires but won't spend the same money on quality suspension or other parts is beyond me... our platform is weird.
I'm not saying any of you, I'm just saying.

[B-Man]

No, BILSTEIN coilovers or Stock ECS with GC coilovers if coilovers are a must.

Forget Tein. Forget JIC, Buddy Clube, Megans or any else of that crap.

DG


It's still there.

People's memories are odd; I never did have a chart of Manufacturer : Dyno Chart like people think I did. But I do have examples of Shocks Behaving Badly and what I consider "behaving badly" really means. That has remained unchanged.

There's no value to naming names because really, they're interchangeable. It is easier (and less lawyerific) to name the good ones instead - because there are far less of them.

The problems are endemic to quality control and design. They cannot be fixed.

DG

Anyone else find this ironic?

[B-Man]

Hey hey, PM me price for PSS9 and 10 /12 H &R springs.

Same.

[B-Man]

why people are willing to blow $2k+ on 18" rims and tires but won't spend the same money on quality suspension or other parts is beyond me... our platform is weird.
I'm not saying any of you, I'm just saying.

:lo5l: I'm not going to spend more on suspension than I paid for the car.

Then again, I know you're not talking about me.

[J. Fast]

Anyone else find this ironic?

Shock body just extended so you can lower it more? Everything else the same?

[B-Man]

It's still there.

People's memories are odd; I never did have a chart of Manufacturer : Dyno Chart like people think I did. But I do have examples of Shocks Behaving Badly and what I consider "behaving badly" really means. That has remained unchanged.

There's no value to naming names because really, they're interchangeable. It is easier (and less lawyerific) to name the good ones instead - because there are far less of them.

The problems are endemic to quality control and design. They cannot be fixed.

DG

DO you have numbers/graphs? I'd like to see the actual data you got for 'crap' and 'good'.

[B-Man]

Shock body just extended so you can lower it more? Everything else the same?

Did you quote the right person?

[J. Fast]

DO you have numbers/graphs? I'd like to see the actual data you got for 'crap' and 'good'.

Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Buying Shocks (http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets18.html)

[B-Man]

Seems a very small sample, and maybe it's my eyes going bad, but I have a hard time distinguishing color on some of those graphs.

[Rakuny]

:lo5l: I'm not going to spend more on suspension than I paid for the car.

Then again, I know you're not talking about me.

I wouldn't either... although, according to what I think you paid for yours I paid almost 3x more for mine :(

Then again I haven't had to deal with someone else's mods because mine was purchased bone stock.
And mines never started on fire :lo5l:

you don't even need to say anything about the oil cooler situation.. my engine rebuild didn't cost that much :p

[B-Man]

I wouldn't either... although, according to what I think you paid for yours I paid almost 3x more for mine :(

Then again I haven't had to deal with someone else's mods because mine was purchased bone stock.
And mines never started on fire :lo5l:

you don't even need to say anything about the oil cooler situation.. my engine rebuild didn't cost that much :p

It's not secret, I paid $2500 for mine (it's posted in my garage).

The fire thing probably could have been prevented, had I cared a little bit more about the car.

[MR2]

funny thing with lowering and removing "wheel gap" is everyone is slowly realizing just how much you compromise to do it :)

[Rakuny]

It's not secret, I paid $2500 for mine (it's posted in my garage).

The fire thing probably could have been prevented, had I cared a little bit more about the car.

I didn't remember exactly how much you paid. I knew it was between 2k and 3k.
I paid 6.5k for mine might as well have been 7k after taxes and whatnot.

[IPD]

I can get those Bilstein setups for a fair amount cheaper than MSRP also...

put the complete, 4 wheel setup on your site for 1 price. i might be interested.

[B-Man]

Do it, but mark it up like 150%

[IPD]

Do it, but mark it up like 150%

then it really wouldn't be worth his time, now would it?

[B-Man]

Think it's worth his time anyways? He'd have to buy the parts for Evos, figure out what springs and valves he wants to sell with the 'kit' to make everyone happy then pay Bilstein to revalve them. Afterwhich he still needs to install the springs. Assuming bilstien won't sell them with different springs, he's stuck with a bunch of wrong springs.

[Maximal]

Yeah, it's a bit of work to get the whole setup ready to go for a bolt on kit. Plus you'd have to talk to Phil for the adapter plates anyways. I'd need more than just that interest to put in the work.

[DG]

You'd be much better off adapting the Bilsteins that already fit and already have a reasonable 3S valving in them.

As pointed out 10 pages ago.

God, why does this have to be so hard?

1. Go to http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html

2. On the banner on the top of the page, (the Tire Rack banner) enter "Mitsubishi" and "1996" then click "Go"

3. Select "3000GT GR4" from the list, then "Select without Saving Vehicle"

4. Select "Suspension"

5. Click "Add to Cart" next to the "H&R Sport Springs" and the "Bilstein Front and Rear Shocks"

Total price: $623.00

DG

[Jeff V.]

God, why does this have to be so hard?


Because if they do it your way, they don't end up with that sexy, slammed, stance. :lo5l:

[DG]

Well if they want that:

1. Got to Tire Rack as before (follow my referral link and I make a couple of bucks; it's the least you could do for all my help) and select the shocks, but skip the springs.

2. Buy two of these: Bilstein B4BOA0000117 - Bilstein Coil-Over Sleeve Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BSN-B4BOA0000117/)

3. Buy one of these: Ground Control - Coilover Conversion kit, 91- Mitsubishi 3000GT/Stealth Fact. Adj. (http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=49/CA=26) You won't be using the rear sleeves, but the springs and top pads you will (I'm not crazy about Eibach springs but they'll do for street use)

4. Use the Bilstein sleeves on the rear shocks. You may have to cut new snapring grooves in the shock body - it's easy and any machine shop can do it.

5. Assemble and slam away.

DG

[B-Man]

Forgive me if this has already been said, it's a long thread, but why wouldn't you use the ground control adjustment kit on the rears and why the snap-ring?

[DG]

The GC rear sleeves won't fit the Bilstein. The shocks are a different OD.

The snap ring is what supports the sleeve.

Just buy the stupid thing and it will become immediately obvious.

DG

[DG]

Beatles, Pink Floyd Engineer Alan Parsons Rips Audiophiles - CE Pro Magazine Article from CE Pro (http://www.cepro.com/story/alanparsons.html)

Note comments on audiophile equipment.

DG

[HLxDrummer]

So I was looking at the Bilstein conversion (not for coilovers, just normal struts) and it doesn't look terrible. Would the ride quality/handling of this setup with springs be better than that of an ECS setup with springs? Is there much point to the adjusters/coilover sleeves for a street car with a touch of track time?

Thank you (you about have me convinced)!

[B-Man]

The GC rear sleeves won't fit the Bilstein. The shocks are a different OD.

The snap ring is what supports the sleeve.

Just buy the stupid thing and it will become immediately obvious.

DG

Why isn't it sitting on the spring mount like the GCs on stock struts?

[B-Man]

I might have to call up these guys, too, to see if they'll do a custom build.

Buy PIC Select - Mitsubishi Evolution 8/9 (http://picperformance.com/store/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=196)

I guess they're located in Chicago.

[DG]

Why isn't it sitting on the spring mount like the GCs on stock struts?

In the box with a Bilstein is a spring mount plate. This slips over the shock and rests on a snap ring that supports the plate. The snap ring is located in the correct location to place this spring plate in the same place as the OEM spring mount.

When you slip the sleeve over the shock, it too rests on the snap ring. But that snap ring is located for where the OEM spring height needs to be, not necessarily in the place where the sleeve best fits. Commonly, the spring sleeve will project over the top of the shock by a couple of inches.

So you move the snap ring to the place that best fits the sleeve, and that necessitates cutting a groove.

Again, this is immediately obvious once you have the parts in hand.


Would the ride quality/handling of this setup with springs be better than that of an ECS setup with springs?

No. By virtue of the ECS computer, the ECS setup can be the best of both worlds - soft for general driving, hard when the car is pulling enough G to demand a stiffer setup.

The Bilstein setup can more-or-less be thought of as ECS locked into "sport" mode - which nobody ever does, right? (that defeats the whole point of the ECS)


Is there much point to the adjusters/coilover sleeves for a street car with a touch of track time?

None at all.

For a car that would see serious track time, or for a street/track car where the car will see race tires and the engineer will swap springs for track days - yes. But for a 90% street car, the lowering springs are fine.


I might have to call up these guys, too, to see if they'll do a custom build.

Why?

Why hack an inferior and more expensive product that will not be properly tuned when you can buy something FAR better that fits for a fraction of the cost?

The mind, simply, BOGGLES at the logic.

DG

[2fnloud]

Beatles, Pink Floyd Engineer Alan Parsons Rips Audiophiles - CE Pro Magazine Article from CE Pro (http://www.cepro.com/story/alanparsons.html)

Note comments on audiophile equipment.

DG

I wanna play!
Richard Clark's $10K amplifier challenge. (http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm)

[B-Man]

Why?

Why hack an inferior and more expensive product that will not be properly tuned when you can buy something FAR better that fits for a fraction of the cost?

The mind, simply, BOGGLES at the logic.

DG

Show me hard data, not some forceful opinion, that this suspension will be any worse than your Bilstein setup because what you're suggesting is a basically an ECS strut with lowering springs. I've owned and driven that setup and it was NOT working for me. So why spend money on something that I know I'm not going to like? Seriously, stop.

[Maximal]

Running both the Megans and Ground Controls at some point over the years I find it hard to believe that someone is recommending the GC's. :p

[2fnloud]

Running both the Megans and Ground Controls at some point over the years I find it hard to believe that someone is recommending the GC's. :p

I am honestly considering it, but would have helper springs installed to prevent unloaded spring issues. The other unknown factor is the proper spring rate to the dampening rate of the ECS strut.

You get that out of balance and you destroyed the ride of the vehicle.

[niterydr]

For those that run the ECS with lowering springs. Which spring do you like and why (Has anyone compared these from a quality and ride standpoint)?
H&R Sport Springs
Tein S
Tein H

[HLxDrummer]

I might have to call up these guys, too, to see if they'll do a custom build.

Buy PIC Select - Mitsubishi Evolution 8/9 (http://picperformance.com/store/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=196)

I guess they're located in Chicago.

Those seem nice but then you need to pay extra for springs to match your car/adapters/etc.

Would it be feasible to buy Megans/Ksports with the springs you want, send them to the place mentioned in this thread that would rebuild/revalve them, and have essentially the same thing? Just be using the Megans/Ksports for the strut body and spring? I feel like lowering springs may not be stiff enough for what I want (most of them are barely stiffer than stock) but don't want the inconsistency and rough ride of the Megans if I can help it.

I still don't see the issue with the Megans aside from quality control from strut to strut as long as the shocks match the springs... Originally I was thinking of getting Megans with a set of springs one level softer than default for a better ride (they say the shocks can go +/- one level on the springs).

[B-Man]

Those seem nice but then you need to pay extra for springs to match your car/adapters/etc.

Would it be feasible to buy Megans/Ksports with the springs you want, send them to the place mentioned in this thread that would rebuild/revalve them, and have essentially the same thing? Just be using the Megans/Ksports for the strut body and spring? I feel like lowering springs may not be stiff enough for what I want (most of them are barely stiffer than stock) but don't want the inconsistency and rough ride of the Megans if I can help it.

I still don't see the issue with the Megans aside from quality control from strut to strut as long as the shocks match the springs... Originally I was thinking of getting Megans with a set of springs one level softer than default for a better ride (they say the shocks can go +/- one level on the springs).

You can specify spring rates with a lot of spring manufacturers.

When most people complain of 'rough ride' it's from damping, not springs.

[J. Fast]

I am honestly considering it, but would have helper springs installed to prevent unloaded spring issues. The other unknown factor is the proper spring rate to the dampening rate of the ECS strut.

You get that out of balance and you destroyed the ride of the vehicle.

I'll give you guys a brief summary of the stock suspension from the dyne info I got from 3R regarding the shocks and springs.

Front Suspension

1) Front ECS shock stroke: 6"

2) Stock ECS shock Compression Rates at 1 ft/sec
Hard: 265 lbs
Medium: 250 lbs
Soft: 220 lbs

3) Stock ECS Rebound Rates at 1 ft/sec
Hard: 580 lbs
Medium: 360lbs
Soft: 140lbs

4) Spring Rate: 218 lbs/in


Rear Suspension

1) Front ECS shock stroke: 8"

2) Stock ECS shock Compression Rates at 1 ft/sec
Hard: 221 lbs
Medium: 192 lbs
Soft: 149 lbs

3) Stock ECS Rebound Rates at 1 ft/sec
Hard: 375 lbs
Medium: 255 lbs
Soft: 120 lbs

4) Spring Rate: 157 lbs/in

[J. Fast]

IMO, TEIN H-Tech is best overall spring rate match for the ECS.

[DG]

but don't want the inconsistency and rough ride of the Megans if I can help it

That is intrinsic to the Megans. It is built into the shock. It canot be fixed without manufacturing your own shimstacks and pistons. Potentially you might be able to modify Bilstein internals to fit in a Megan housing... but that's just silly when you can buy the straight-up Bilsteins.


I'll give you guys a brief summary of the stock suspension from the dyne info I got from 3R regarding the shocks and springs.

12 in/sec is WAY too fast to dyno at. At that speed you've already blown past the digression knee. All the handling and ride stuff happens at 3 in/sec and slower.

It can be worthwhile to see higher speeds (I'd usually provide a trace at 15 in/sec just to see it) but all the important stuff - like spring matching - happens between 0-3 in/sec.

More to follow later.

DG

[HLxDrummer]

Alright after reading your site, DG, I have a few questions. Are the "adjusters" on the ECS shocks linear and repeatable?

Is there a way to do a Bilstein strut setup with spring rates between that of coilovers and lowering springs? I like the idea of ECS if it is linear and repeatable, but I would like a stiffer setup than what lowering springs will do.

Thank you!

[HLxDrummer]

What do you guys think about the Apexi S1's with the SCE adapters? Just ran across them on SCE's site. Relatively affordable if they are a quality product and work well on a near stock weight VR4.

[familyMAN]

Where do KW's fit into this coilover discussion?

[a2j]

What do you guys think about the Apexi S1's with the SCE adapters? Just ran across them on SCE's site. Relatively affordable if they are a quality product and work well on a near stock weight VR4.

this comes from the man himself (I hope its ok to post PMs)
"You could also try A'PEXi N1 with my EVO8 adapters. That could be the best setup, although less stiff than the Megans, so it would be a better ride but a worse handling. Unless you decide to get stiffer springs for them. That could be done later, if you want."

[HLxDrummer]

I would be thrilled with a coilover that has a ride between Megans and stock since my car is a mostly street car. However, I wonder how consistent those shocks are in terms of force levels at similar settings...

[a2j]

Where do KW's fit into this coilover discussion?

another part of PM from the man:
"KW will give you a better street ride, but a worse handling performance and a higher ride height"

also:
"Tein Flex does not halve enough of travel in the front. The car will be horrible over bumps and potholes, and will understeer on the road course" (Megans better)

Philip spent lots of hours on the track, so I trust him.

[Blackmount]

I have CXracing coils on my 3000GT FWD. Same as megans from what gzp told me. I like them. Im still making slight adjustments but 1 big adjustmemt after I installed them and it was almost dead on for what I want...not too stiff at all. I drive the car everyday. Turn In response improved but sudden loss of traction to the front tires if u try to turn in real hard (understeer) so u have to be careful. From what ive been told I blame my lack of tread on my tires and the fact that these came with no camber plates so I can not adjust front camber accordingly. Just cruising down back winding roads car feels great. Body roll is alot less but not too tight.

Springs I tightened in .5 inch from what they were set at from cxracing. They feel pretty good.

Dampening is set pretty light, not awhole lot stiffer then ECS on hard. For 650$ id say they were pretty good buy.

Because I dont know alot about setting up coils and I still need camber gear and tires im mainly just adjusting by what feels comfortable. Slowly learning to manage the understeer, in the dry its predicable and I dont feer going straight into a ditch when attacking a corner. Rain is a different story but thats tire related.

[B-Man]

How are CXRacing the same as Megans if Megans have adjustable camber? I can believe the strut cartridge is the same, but not the body/springs.

[Blackmount]

Idk thats just what they told me. They said they were rebadged megans and all came from the same place.

[Emilie@GZP]

How are CXRacing the same as Megans if Megans have adjustable camber? I can believe the strut cartridge is the same, but not the body/springs.

the AWD cx racing coilovers have the adjustable camber plate. the fwd one's don't.

[IPD]

the AWD cx racing coilovers have the adjustable camber plate. the fwd one's don't.

that's quite silly, considering the front struts mount exactly the same on both cars.

[J_Parker]

I have CUSCO coilovers on my car and am very happy with them, they're a relatively comfortable ride, handling is a dream with them, and they are also very adjustable... But... Hard as hell to find, they came on my car when I got them and haven't seen any since. Pit Road did my whole car before it came from Japan, I may send them a photo of the car and get some more information on it if they remember it.

[mb3000]

DG, what are your thoughts on this setup?


or
Ralli Art 3000GT - BILSTEIN SUSPENSION TUNING (http://www.fictrading.com/ralliart3000gt/spsu3a.htm)

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/5407/bilsfw.jpg

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/4364/bilsrw2.jpg

[mb7050]

F4-GM5-8642-H1 MITSUBISHI VII/VIII PSS9

anyone know the physical dimensions of those bilsteins ?I would really like to know how they would compare to bilstein inserts/oem struts..

[J. Fast]

Hrmm, check this out. http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/suspension/susp_bilstein_rc_lg.jpg

I bet I could make one of those...

[terrets]

You'd be much better off adapting the Bilsteins that already fit and already have a reasonable 3S valving in them.

As pointed out 10 pages ago.

God, why does this have to be so hard?

1. Go to Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - ATW Home Page (http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html)

2. On the banner on the top of the page, (the Tire Rack banner) enter "Mitsubishi" and "1996" then click "Go"

3. Select "3000GT GR4" from the list, then "Select without Saving Vehicle"

4. Select "Suspension"

5. Click "Add to Cart" next to the "H&R Sport Springs" and the "Bilstein Front and Rear Shocks"

Total price: $623.00

DG

Do this (plus mod front stock struts for Bilstein inserts?) and I have a new suspension for my 91 VR4? Being better than Megans, Tiens, or any other coilovers (even without damper adjustment)? Plus a 1" drop. And something fairly good for the drag track and hopefully autox.. And there will be no fitment issues with my current wheel setup?

Also, would the Tein springs mate up with these good?

I have stock ecs (Prolly 190k on) and even on Sport mode my ass drops a lot.

Or are you saying the Bilstein's are only better if you revalve them? Why so loyal to Bilstein's? Have you really seen that many other strut MFGs have inconsitant rates from same part numbers and Bilstein's always consistant?

Sorry if I missed it, but what all involves revalving? Ive got a hydraulic and pnuematic shop at my disposal..

[mb7050]

Hrmm, check this out. http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/suspension/susp_bilstein_rc_lg.jpg

I bet I could make one of those...

doo eet

would that work wit the evo coilover ?



ridecontrol ®
"This system allows the driver to electronically select between a comfort oriented or a significantly firmer,
aggressive performance damping mode with a simple push of the dash mounted button.

The integrated control unit switches the damping settings on all four shocks/struts in fractions of a second to deliver the handling characteristics you desire. An on-board computer control box monitors several inputs and is constantly manipulating the valving characteristics of each shock.

senses road characteristics and G-loads and makes shock valving changes in a millisecond

Push button allows in-cabin damping adjustment. In normal mode the system provides good street handling and passenger comfort. While the Sport mode creates a crisp, performance response that is great for track usage."



Do want

[mb7050]

looks like the bilstein ECS system is only intended to use with bilstein ridecontrol ® coilovers afaik they dont make ridecontrol ® coilovers for an evo .. I really hope the system could be made to work with the evo coils

[2fnloud]

Hrmm, check this out. http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/suspension/susp_bilstein_rc_lg.jpg

I bet I could make one of those...

hmmmmmmmmmm :suspect:

[J. Fast]

That's a PSS9 shock, look at the numbers :). Yea, you could build one...




Sorry if I missed it, but what all involves revalving? Ive got a hydraulic and pnuematic shop at my disposal..

You decompress the shock by purging the nitrogen out of it (if it's a sealed shock you have to drill it which would be what the shrader valve attachment would be used for. You'd be filling the shock back up with nitrogen later). Pull the nut and snap rings on the end and drain the oil. Obviously theres the rod and shock body. In a nut shell, attached to the rod there's a rod guide, dividing pison (which separates the nitrogen from the oil), support washers and then the shims or "orfice plates". You arrange Bilstein specific orfice plates/shimstacks in a peticular order to get the valving you're looking for. You may need 5 plates or 20. The orfice overlap on the plates is what dictates the valving. Since the plates are precision machined the valving can be matched by rebuilding all the shocks with the exact same position and overlap. Put the shock back together in reverse order and fill it back up with that awsome schrader addition.

Ever used or seen a bulk loader or grease gun... Kinda looks like a caulking gun? Can you take one apart and service or clean it? If you can it's the exact same principle. If you can take a caulking gun apart and stack toothed washers on both sides of the slide plate (in the shocks case that would be the divider) exactly the same for four different guns then you can do it. You really don't need all that highspeed equipment to pull the shock apart because it shouldn't have any pressue in it. You will however need a drill, a welder, and basic hand tools, and a gauge to check the nitrogen pressure when you fill the shock back up at the newly attached schrader valve that you weld on from the hole you drilled.

That schrader valve addition DG posted makes Bilstein MFR so called "not rebuildable or servicable" or "MFR custom valving service", obsolete... Beacuse you can, well, service them as soon as you add the fill valve.

[J. Fast]

The valving specs can be obtained at Bilstein. There's a MFR provided spec sheet with the shimstack orientations that shows what their valving yield is when assembled with a peticular "tree" configuration.

[MR2]

ok those coil-overs look ideal... so how do we need to make it work with the stock ECS computer price? camon guys! what are they called? just Bilstein sport?

[BigBoris]

I'm running JIC Magic - FLT-TAR Coilovers

My opinion: I love these for fast tight corners and the overall perky feel of my steering response and suspension. I would say that if you are looking for a strait up race coilover this would seriously cover your needs as long as you're looking into road courses however drag racing isnt that great with this stiff suspension... my suspension travel is about 3/4 inchs at most while on the ground and I'm using adco sway-bars to help stabilize roll and keep even tire tread down around corners. Although this is a great suspension for racing, daily driving isn't catered too by any means... You'll feel every dip and bump on the road/freeway. It's not bouncy so don't get the idea that you'll be bouncing after one bump. It feels like a quick hop. I'm sorta tired from a long day but I hope that you guys get the idea. Its a great RACING SUSPENSION but DD won't be very comfy on bad roads...

JIC Magic - FLT-TAR (http://www.jic-magic.com/ViewProduct1.aspx?ProductID=33&CarModelID=29&CarMakeID=6)

Only around $2,300

[terrets]

I'm running JIC Magic - FLT-TAR Coilovers
...
JIC Magic - FLT-TAR (http://www.jic-magic.com/ViewProduct1.aspx?ProductID=33&CarModelID=29&CarMakeID=6)

Only around $2,300

Ouch.. At least too much for me for a few years, Im trying to save up for a house! hah.

And yet for some reason I think DG would say Billsteins are still better...

[DocWalt]

JICs are way too stiff for street use. There's at least one member here that can attest to that.

[BigBoris]

JICs are way too stiff for street use. There's at least one member here that can attest to that.

I totally agree with you...

[MR2]

I wonder if that Bilstein stuff is as durable as stock...

wonder if Mitsu worked with bilstein with the production of the stock ECS strut...so you could just go to Bilstein and tell them to make the ECS to your own specs in coil-over form.


yes I know I'm dreaming :p

[75blackray]

I didn't read through all 25 pages, so I don't know if anyone has given any feedback on the d2s. But that is what is on my car, I got them for under $800 and they came highly recommended by my local performance shop. I like them as long as they are set on the stiffer side, bc they get kinda bouncy as you reduce stiffness. If you hit a pothole on the street though, you may feel like you detached some important internal organs. They handle great, but I don't have much to compare to.

[Blackmount]

I have several friends wth d2 coils on there cars and they love em

[TurboSinceBirth]

I got the front Apexi S1 coilovers installed since Thursday evening. I did not know there was going to be as much grinding to the mounting holes for the EVO coilovers. I expected a little maybe 1/16" per hole. It's more like 1/8-3/16" inwards you have to open up the holes. Luckily I had some carbide bits for my Dewalt drill so that made quick work of it and it only took about 5 minutes per side. If you had to use a file it would take forever.

I need to take apart the K-Sports because I'm almost positive one strut is blown. I can't believe that the ride quality would be such a night/day difference. I set the front coilovers to 15/20 stiffness and it is still very tolerable. Later on I will be messing with it some more but probably not until I get the rears put in. My ride height in the front is close to stock. It doesn't look as good but I can't have 1 finger gap like it was set before because it was tearing stuff up left and right with how low it sat plus the crappy roads here. With the SCE EVO adapters on the front you don't have to worry about eccentric bolts. The only way you can adjust camber is by the top mount which is actually nice because the Megans as well as other coilovers have had problems with the top strut mounting bolt moving around causing the camber to go off.

I'll wait until I get the rears installed to make a better judgement but so far it's looking very good for these coilovers. I'd be willing to say that you can probably get a stock ECS ride on these Apexi S1's while still maintaining better handling. One everything is installed I'll mess around with the settings some more to see if this is in fact true but I'm already beginning to see why people on other forums were saying they could get a stock ride quality out of them. I'm getting excited and I think these will be the last coilovers I'll get unless my car becomes track only so we will see. :)

[vr4tune]

Post lots of pics please!

[TurboSinceBirth]

Post lots of pics please!

Here's a pic of the front:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk184/Schuppenherz/95%20RT%20TT/P1010681.jpg

My battery was dead and I was installing the rears last night in the dark. Replacing the rear control arms was being a pain. I didn't get any seat time on the coilovers since it was late and my neighbors don't like my DR 3.5" exhaust. Lol. If not for the rain I will get some more pics and take the car for a spin.

The helper springs on the rear made it more time consuming to set the ride height. The fronts went quicker and this was even taking into consideration installing the adjustable rear control arms. Once you find the right settings for your ride height while still maintaining the most shock travel the other side goes very quick. I have the rears set for a 2 finger gap and the front is a 3 finger gap. I know it looks like stock but I can't be scraping everywhere. My exhaust and front bumper sit lower than the rest of the car due to the size. I will probably drop the front end some more but I don't want to slam it. That isn't my style. Performance > looks. You can go as low as you want with these coilovers though. You'll rub the tires before they're bottomed out.

[vr4tune]

Here's a pic of the front:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk184/Schuppenherz/95%20RT%20TT/P1010681.jpg

I don't want to slam it. That isn't my style. Performance > looks. You can go as low as you want with these coilovers though. You'll rub the tires before they're bottomed out.

I love what you are doing! I feel the same as you, performance always comes first in all my decisions. Those coilovers are an option if I don't go with amr. Keep the pics comming. I wouldn't mind some with the wheels mounted on the front and behind to see clearances. I run a high offset and wonder how they compair to othe 3s specific coilovers.