If remote tuning possible with AEM EMS or someone to build a startup calibration

[propbreaker]

I am hoping JFast will chime in and what can be done. I just got my car running; well kinda running. But what I am having an issue with is getting the car tuned enough so I can take it to be professional tuned. I found a shop but almost an hour away and I do not have a trailer anymore. So what I need to know if someone can build me a reliable starting tune since AEM's is not close or do a remote tune. I have upgraded turbos, intercooler ,injectors bov, Wideband uego, true boost, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator. I will pay for this with in reason. Since the shop that doing the final tune is charging a flat $600 dollar fee including the dyno time.

[niterydr]

That $600 flat rate with dyno work is cheap, probably to cheap unless they've done hundreds of these cars.
What do they provide with that price? Tech support? Diagnostic? Driveability guarantee?
Are you going to run E-85 (E-70 in most states now), or 92 octane?

[propbreaker]

They have done I believe fifty over last 10 years when I went thru there dyno logs. They do a lot of Evo, WRX,Lambrogini,and Ferrari which they were finishing one while I was there. I never knew they were around because they specialize in high end exotics and advertise in those mags. They guarantee drivability and support. As of right now I am going with pump 92 not enough e85 available in the area sometime you have to to drive over 25 miles for e85. I want to go e85 but not until it is more available in my area.

[J. Fast]

Setup? Motor, heads, turbo's, injector mfr, intercooler/s, type of fuel pump, base fuel pressure, target boost, idle AFR, type of fuel, any O2 feedback or straight wideband on the dash?

[zapman2000]

hey J.Fast could you make me a Startup cal for AEM EMSv2 id be willing to pay a little for your time if you can
my car is 93 3000GT VR4 Stock except:
AEM EMS v2
AEM O2 Sensor x1 /Guage tied into EMS
AEM MAP 3.5bar
AEM IAT
3sx fuel loop+FPR+Guage set to stock pressure
255 Walbro hotwired
running 92 octane

[DG]

Dude, trust me on this; you will be FAR better off in the long run by biting the bullet and learning how to do this yourself.

It unquestionably seems scary (I know it was for me when I started doing it 12 years ago) but everything is learnable and doable.

The trick is to enable O2 feedback across the entire range, starting at an engine temp higher than the last cell that has any warmup enrichment fuel in it. Plug in the proper A/F ratios in the O2 feedback map (14.7:1 at off boost, 13:1 or so at zero boost, 12:1 at low boost, 11:1 at high boost) and start logging the O2 Feedback % numbers. The O2 feedback will keep the motor on the right A/F ratio, and you can start adding or pulling fuel to get the O2 feedback number within about 3% either way on each cell.

Concentrate on low load at first. Do cruise. It's safer, slower, and easier.

As the cruise cells fill in, you'll start to see patterns in the fuel map. By scaling the map at higher load levels, you'll get close without ever having to run the car into those cells (and the O2 feedback will cover your ass for the rest)

You can then set the boost controller for wastegate pressure, and start tuning the low boost numbers. Once those are roughed in, start increasing the boost numbers and tune those cells too - remember, you are trying to get the O2 feedback within 3% (and I tune so O2 feedback is pulling -3% or less, but never adding - meaning that the raw map is ever-so-slightly rich, which is safe)

And the whole time, you can adjust and tune the rest of the map based on symmetries and patterns that emerge.

With this done, you can go to the dyno and fine-tune under load, and try different timing values to start looking for more power. But this isn't worth doing until you have the cruise stuff done.

And then you can move to startup/warmup tuning. :)

I've had/seen very mixed results with "pro tuners". Some of them are right out to lunch. Most of them do a simple smoothing of the A/F curve at WOT loads and set A/F and timing so it doesn't knock and call it a day. A very, very small minority have some good tricks for finding power that are non-obvious - but these guys typically need a decent tune as a baseline, or you wind up paying for them to do your roughing-out work.

Dyno tuning is a really easy way to make a quick buck and send the customer away feling happy without having to do much work, where 90% of the tuning winds up needing to be done off-dyno, and 75% of that is startup/warmup which needs many, many cooldown and warmup cycles.

My current AEM tune is super solid in cruise and low boost. Warmup is near perfect. Startup works down to -15C, although it is still a little ragged at cooler temps and I'm back into refining it now that the temps are cooling off again. I haven't gone chasing big power yet because I've identified a mechanical fueling capacity shortfall (I'm on stock injectors and stock fuel pump) so I've capped boost at a safe level pending injector and pump upgrades (and yet it still made over 300 HP at the wheels) And I'm also working on getting EGR working too.

But most importantly, I am master of my own destiny and not beholden to any "t00ner" to look at my car every time it burps or hiccups.

Learn to do it yourself.

DG

[propbreaker]

For J.fast.
stock heads and cams, car has done
PTE 780 low impudence at 43.5 psi
Turbo are the IPS T30 ball bearing internal wastegate
Target fuel pressure is 45the psi with Aeromotive For with IPS billet fuel rail and hotwired walbro 255 fuel pump
I am looking at 14 psi of boost I have AEM true boost
I have an IPS 750hp fmic kit
I have the AEM Digital wide band wired in 30-4100 I would like feedback since it is wired in by the aem directions

I am going to run on 92 octane for now
Motor itself is stock other than it has fresh stock complete overhaul 4 bolt main
Tialsport bov 9lbs spring in it
I want to keep it as mild as possible due to it has no drivetrain reinforcement yet.
I have stage 2 clutch and lightweight flywheel

[DG]

*sigh*

DG

[propbreaker]

Dg. The only reason I am doing this is I have tried to do it and continue to have issue the car will not stable idle and will come off enrichment and rev uncontrollable I am not finding why the iac is being shutoff and it goes off on mind of it owns. Beside I do not have time or the money to damage the engine.

[Ninja Performance]

$600 is dirt cheap. For a FULL tune I wouldn't trust something that cheap. Remember, Dyno/power pulls are about 20% of tuning a standalone.

-Chris

[Intropy]

Dg. The only reason I am doing this is I have tried to do it and continue to have issue the car will not stable idle and will come off enrichment and rev uncontrollable I am not finding why the iac is being shutoff and it goes off on mind of it owns. Beside I do not have time or the money to damage the engine.

Post your calibration.

[propbreaker]

If I can figure out how to I will

[DG]

It is much harder than you suspect to damage an engine. If you start rich and work lean, start retarded and work advanced, have O2 sensor feedback and knock protection on, it is really very, very hard to really hurt anything, especially off-boost.

Other troubleshooting is mostly just a matter of attention to detail and patience. It isn't rocket science.

DG

[Intropy]

If I can figure out how to I will

If nothing else, you can use mediafire or any free filesharing site and give us a link.

[propbreaker]

if someone can tell me how to upload it I will every time I try to upload forum says it is invalid file

[Intropy]

Sent you a PM, just send it to me via email and I'll post it.

If your car is healthy, the EMS is set up properly, and you're a reasonably patient/thorough person, we can get it drivable.

[propbreaker]

alright see if this works I did it thru mediafire

sartingtune102211.01V24.cal (http://www.mediafire.com/?q6bld26uqcd1a74)

[Intropy]

Got it. What's the behavior of the car right now, with this tune?

[propbreaker]

Oh I am very thorough person and very patient also. I just have a**hole neighbors that keep calling the city ordinance . You are not allowed to work on your own vehicle in the driveway. We have inop vehicle ordinance that does not matter if it is 30 seconds or longer even if car is plated and insured.

[propbreaker]

Car idles fine in stotich if I remember it was 13.1 on the gauge and the vacuum was at 14 inches then after 4 mins even if you do not touch the throttle it will take off to red line.
I have vacuum leak tested the car and no leaks

[Intropy]

OK, first things first. Have you:

Run Wizards -> Set Throttle Range Wizard?
Run Wizards -> Ignition Timing Sync Wizard?

Also, are you really planning to rev the car to 10K RPMs? If not I would highly suggest we change those breakpoints.

[propbreaker]

I think it is an issue with IAC I put a new one in and the problem went away with the reving but then it came b ack later after the second time I started the car. If you unplug it the engine rev uncontrolable

[propbreaker]

I set both before but I will reset them again no I do not plan on 10k rpm range

[Intropy]

OK, it's not too important now, but you should do it before you start tuning your fuel map.

Do you know how to log various channels and send them to me?

[propbreaker]

I am not a hundred percent on that

[Ninja Performance]

It is much harder than you suspect to damage an engine. If you start rich and work lean, start retarded and work advanced, have O2 sensor feedback and knock protection on, it is really very, very hard to really hurt anything, especially off-boost.

Other troubleshooting is mostly just a matter of attention to detail and patience. It isn't rocket science.

DG

I would strongly disagree with that assertion. Especially on a turbo setup. And even more if it had stock pistons. Or a good amount of mileage. It actually can become a heap of broken internal parts rather quickly and easily in the hands of a person that does not know even the basics of engine tuning.

-Chris

[propbreaker]

I think I just figured the log out .

[Ninja Performance]

OK, first things first. Have you:

Run Wizards -> Set Throttle Range Wizard?
Run Wizards -> Ignition Timing Sync Wizard?

Also, are you really planning to rev the car to 10K RPMs? If not I would highly suggest we change those breakpoints.

And pickup delay comp.

-Chris

[Intropy]

And pickup delay comp.

-Chris

Yeah, I got the impression the car might not be running well enough to check that quite yet.


I think I just figured the log out .

OK, log a startup and send it to me for practice. In the meantime I'll make the list of parameters I want.

[propbreaker]

okay It will take me a minute since I am in the house right this second

[Intropy]

No hurry, this will take days. ;) Like I said, patience required. This is all preliminary stuff.

I'm also looking over your cal. It may just be AEMTuner fucking with me, but you said you have PTE 780CC injectors, right? I'm showing that you're matched to RC 750CC injectors. Have you run the setup wizard?

[propbreaker]

here was the log not long car does not want to run it only 38 degrees here at 11pm est

2011-11-03 2240 PC Log.stf (http://www.mediafire.com/?8ysbvyd0x7o8xu7)

[propbreaker]

I ran it but they do not have pte780 listed

[niterydr]

Pickup delay comp looks weird, ignition timing under cruise and low rpm is weird, fueling is staggered and off, idle parameters do not make sense for a stock 3/s Idle motor unless it is fubar or there is a huge leak somewhere, why is the map out to 10,600 rpm? Idle parameter/controls are off....

[J. Fast]

Alright, let's try this. Try a cold sensor check. Look at your AIT and Coolant temp sensors, they should be no more than 15 degrees apart on a cold engine. If the AIT or coolant temp sensor is bad the sensor "failsafe" will be applied. The failsafe parameter is located under the sensors tab. It will trigger an "Error AIR" (AIT sensor) or "Error Coolant" (Coolant Temp Sensor) light and change the sensor value from 0 to 1. The errors are located at the bottom of the sensor channel. I'm guessing the EMS is defaulting to failsafe mode and you haven't established the parameters for it and the EMS is interpolating between the coolant error failsafe table and the O2 feedback table to make corrections.

It's following the command line.

[propbreaker]

here is the last log for tonight my wife just got from work and want me to spend some time with here before we go to bed not going to argue when she 7 months plus pregnant I will talk to later appreciate the help
2nd log 11-3-2011.stf (http://www.mediafire.com/?takjnl177a2u1l0)

[propbreaker]

Alright, let's try this. Try a cold sensor check. Look at your AIT and Coolant temp sensors, they should be no more than 15 degrees apart on a cold engine. If the AIT or coolant temp sensor is bad the sensor "failsafe" will be applied. The failsafe parameter is located under the sensors tab. It will trigger an "Error AIR" (AIT sensor) or "Error Coolant" (Coolant Temp Sensor) light and change the sensor value from 0 to 1. The errors are located at the bottom of the sensor channel. I'm guessing the EMS is defaulting to failsafe mode and you haven't established the parameters for it and the EMS is interpolating between the coolant error failsafe table and the O2 feedback table to make corrections.

It's following the command line.

J I saw what you posted as I was getting out of the car. I checked them and they show only 10 degrees of difference

[J. Fast]

Open the sensors tab, when you turn the key to the "on" position what sensors are reading (0)? What sensors are reading (1). Do not crank, just hot key the ignition.

[Intropy]

I ran it but they do not have pte780 listed

Ah, OK. Just FYI, I would pick the Rochester 756cc over the RCs. We can tweak it later. You matched everything else though right?

[DG]

I would strongly disagree with that assertion. Especially on a turbo setup. And even more if it had stock pistons. Or a good amount of mileage. It actually can become a heap of broken internal parts rather quickly and easily in the hands of a person that does not know even the basics of engine tuning.

So how many engines did you break when you were learning?

Seriously, if you start with cruise and work to WOT, start rich and work lean, and start retarded and work advanced - and especially if you have O2 feedback and knock control active - it is VERY hard to really hurt a motor, and you will learn enough about tuning so that once you do start getting into the "dangerous" areas you have an idea of what it is you are doing.

This idea that owning a standalone requires a "pro" tuner to tune it or you'll blow up your motor is such complete bullshit. Anybody can learn to do it - it just takes patience and attention to detail. You may not be able to wring out the last 5% that a really experienced tuner can get, but you can for sure get to the 90-95% point on your own with no extra financial outlay, even with stock pistons and whatnot.

And let me tell you, when I was learning, I made some really big mistakes - and that was on a race car that saw tons of high-boost, WOT operation - and never hurt the motor. They are a lot more forgiving than people think.

DG

[J. Fast]

The trick is to enable O2 feedback across the entire range, starting at an engine temp higher than the last cell that has any warmup enrichment fuel in it. Plug in the proper A/F ratios in the O2 feedback map (14.7:1 at off boost, 13:1 or so at zero boost, 12:1 at low boost, 11:1 at high boost) and start logging the O2 Feedback % numbers. The O2 feedback will keep the motor on the right A/F ratio, and you can start adding or pulling fuel to get the O2 feedback number within about 3% either way on each cell.

Concentrate on low load at first. Do cruise. It's safer, slower, and easier.

As the cruise cells fill in, you'll start to see patterns in the fuel map. By scaling the map at higher load levels, you'll get close without ever having to run the car into those cells (and the O2 feedback will cover your ass for the rest)


DGNot to bust your bubble or anything DG, but AEM 2 has an auto tune feature. You can close the +3/-3 window even more by using the tool. The software is programmed to take the gain you specify and interpolate with O2 feedback and will absolutely build a fuelmap for you. Prolly take about 4 or 5 hours off your hands with smoothing and trying to hit all the cells on the dyno too as you can populate the cells on the steet while driving normally. Just activate the feature and go for a long drive, uphill, downhill, mountains, and etc. Take a few breaks in the middle of the cruise and turn off the tool and smooth it out by hand if necc. Basically, pass thru each cell or atleast hit an edge atleast three times and it will auto execute just like an Autronic :). The smaller the gain the tighter the window... all the way Down to 2%, automatically. After being trained to use the feature and applying it in real world application I can absolutely say if employed by a trained handler it makes the logging method obsolete and turns it into a time waster. The time difference can be compared to dropping a postcard in the mail vs. sending an email.

To activate the feature on an existing cal "Click" Tools>Preferences> Hotkeys and assign the operation hotkeys for autotune. Next "Click" Tools>Preferences>Quick Tune and set the type of feedback and the gain. Assign the hotkeys to activate the program under the hotkey tab. Set the gain correction factor (the smaller the number, the tighter the resolution). You can up the gain or lower the gain to get more granularity on the pulsewidth which helps with big vs. small orfice injectrs. Start at .6 and then lower the increments till you like what you see and then move to the fuel map and smooth out everything. Again, set it up under the workspace tab which is under the preferences. Set your hotkeys to start the program and stop the program. Build an AFR map and pass thru each cell 3 times and the program will set fuel for you.

[J. Fast]

$600 is dirt cheap. For a FULL tune I wouldn't trust something that cheap. Remember, Dyno/power pulls are about 20% of tuning a standalone.

-Chris

Well, I disagree only because I know some calibrators don't tune for profit. Tuning to me is like driving a racecar or shooting a gun. To some, money means less and fun factor or test of expertise means more.

Don't forget about everyone who just stole this uploaded cal :)

[DG]

I have not had much luck with the Auto Tune feature, at least with AEM 1. It occasionally makes some very strange decisions.

I've found that logging O2Correction and changing the map manually is more reliable.

DG

[J. Fast]

The old method works, and logging is great. I can't say I used the automap feature to much at all on the V1 software. Quicktune works great on the V2 tho. It's much less complicated and you have more control because you can lock the gain correction. Lock gain increment correction percentage at .6 and it's 6% You want 10% then enter 1. That's pretty good resolution. If you like you can can start with bigger gain numbers say 1.5 then go to 1 then .5 and etc. Each time you lock the gain the resolution gets better. Just keep doing it and dropping the number till you get to .1. Then it will have fuel trims like a stock running engine :)

[DG]

I occasionally consider upgrading to a V2 box - mostly to get access to the USB connection vice the serial port.

But my V1 box appears to be working so well that it is hard to really get motivated to drop that much coin for very litttle (if any) gain.

Car starts nearly perfectly no matter the temp, is immediately driveable after start, boost control works, EGT (sorta) works, idle is perfect....

DG

[Intropy]

Prop, I already see some problems.

In those logs you sent me, your TPS value stays around 4-5%. Your "Idle On If TP Under" = 3.1% and "Idle Off If TP Over" = 3.9% which means you have no active idle control.

Are you holding the gas? If not, can you run the TPS Setup Wizard again and make sure the values are correct?

[propbreaker]

I was not holding. The throttle I ran the wizard before the last one of the night

[propbreaker]

I did match everything else beside the injectors sorry trying to catch up been at doctors today with wife. I have not had time to read everything yet I am still on the road just stopped to get dinner and I am on my android answering on here

[Intropy]

OK, run the TPS wizard again and make sure the values don't change. Check for a stuck throttle, tension in the cable, etc. You should be down in the 1-2% range when you're off the gas.

I'll share my logic with you so you can learn. Since your car starts, the first place I went is the Idle tab. In the logs I see your car idles around 6-700 RPM. That's a bit low for now, which tells me to adjust your Idle Target Base table. But when I look at it, it's fine (1000RPMs or higher depending on coolant temp), which tells me that either you have no idle control, or your Idle% vs Target table is so far off that it can't compensate (this is controlled by Idle FB Min/Max).

So I start looking for reasons why Idle Control would be off, which are listed under "Idle Options". Lo and behold, your TP value is too high.

[Intropy]

I did match everything else beside the injectors sorry trying to catch up been at doctors today with wife. I have not had time to read everything yet I am still on the road just stopped to get dinner and I am on my android answering on here

No problem, like I said there's no hurry. We'll keep at it.

[propbreaker]

I appreciate all the help I am getting ready to go out and work with it here shortly since I have wifi to the outside I will post up another log as soon as get going again

[Intropy]

I appreciate all the help I am getting ready to go out and work with it here shortly since I have wifi to the outside I will post up another log as soon as get going again

Sure. I don't need any more logs yet; the main thing right now is to get that TPS value fixed. You don't even need to start the car, just turn the key to on, connect to ECU, and see what "Throttle %" says. It's in various places, including the start and idle tabs.

Run the wizard again and see if you can get that value down to 1.X%.

[Intropy]

Also, please flatten the table "Ign vs. Idle RPM". Click anywhere in the table, press <Ctrl-A> s 0 <Enter>.

[Intropy]

And save your cal before every single change! This is good practice. I save them by date with a serial number, e.g. "20111104-1.01V24", "20111104-2.01V24", etc. I also add in File -> Calibration Notes the changes I made.

[propbreaker]

well now I got another issue went to start after resetting the throttle and now it is blowing the motor fuse . What I am missing now it was not doing this before when it happen the taach starting jumping all over the place and then car shutoff I tried to restart and the tach jumped and no start

[Intropy]

ECI fuse under hood or engine fuse inside the car? Start looking for shorts.

[propbreaker]

oh yeah Thanks Intropy
and Thanks to J.Fast

want to make sure I get your credit for the ongoing help

[propbreaker]

engine fuse in the Car I can not find any I went thru the engine harness before reinstalling the engine. But I will have to check it was weird the car started to come up to temp and then pop and glowing light under the dash since I use smart fuses that light to make it easier to find

[propbreaker]

I think I may have found out were the short maybe. I think it may be coil harness. I put MSD coil on and it maybe arcing even tho I sealed the exposed area of the connector . So I will have to remove coils and double check the wires and that capicator

[propbreaker]

I found the problem why the fuse was blowing once the engine warmed up I thought it would be the wire not the 3 coils themselves. I am posting a photo of the worse one. I am on hold till Thursday now due to the place I bought them cannot get me a new set till Thursday. This sucks we were starting to get somewhere yesterday and it started blowing fuses.
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc286/propbreaker/photobucket-20735-1320518567369.jpg

[Intropy]

Glad you found it. Knowing is half the battle when it comes to electrical problems.

Once your car is healthy it won't take much to get it drivable. After we get it idling nicely, we'll change those breakpoints and get your fuel dialed in.

[propbreaker]

Cool I will pm you as soon as I get the replacement coils installed

[propbreaker]

Alright here is the new log car now stuck idling at 2k since changes. Other thing is my vacuum is now or 19inches at idle so I may have another issue with the BOV spring yeah but I am getting somewhere.
2011-11-06 1659 PC Log.stf (http://www.mediafire.com/?ct7srgbk7l79985)

[Intropy]

WTF, this one is worse! Now your throttle reading is 50%. What did you do?

[DG]

See? This is all doable. You'll be on the same level as most "expert tuners" in no time.

DG

[propbreaker]

Nothing but make sure the throttle blade was closed correctly on the stop screw and then adjust the tps till it read .36 volts at closed throttle. When all was done it was sitting idling at 2k I did not see the 50% throttle in the log

[Intropy]

Here's an example of what I see in the log:

Time/s Throttle
0.000 53.57056
0.020 53.57056
0.040 53.57056
0.060 53.57056
0.080 53.57056
0.100 53.57056
0.120 53.57056
0.140 53.57056
0.160 53.57056
0.180 53.57056
0.200 53.57056
0.220 57.14111
0.240 53.57056
0.260 53.57056
0.280 53.57056
0.300 49.99847
0.320 53.57056
0.340 53.57056
0.360 53.57056
0.380 53.57056
0.400 53.57056
0.420 57.14111
0.440 53.57056
0.460 53.57056
0.480 53.57056
0.500 49.99847

What do you show with the key on, ECU connected under the Idle tab for Throttle?

[propbreaker]

It is still showing 50% and throttle and the tps voltage in wizard is showing 0.36 . I do not know what happened I will have to check it out tomorrow on the TB itself it dark now since daylight savings is over and it is hard to see the lower screw on the tps. I checked the throttle blade before finishing typing and it is closed. I am dumb founded on this one

talk to you tomorrow

[propbreaker]

I figured out what happened I will have to redo throttle wizard it did not take the wide open throttle voltage when I set it up. it only input .48 volts for max throttle instead of 4.86 volts easy fix first thing tomorrow.

[propbreaker]

Well I figured i would add an update. After getting the the other spring for the BOV from Chris I decided to check the the throttle body for vacuum leaks and to go thru it. I replaced VSS oring and cleaned out all passage and this is where I found the problem. It was not the throttle body itself or any of the components of the sensors on it causing it to rev. It was a defective vacuum cap that had a small crack that I could not see and when the car warmed up it expand and leaked all the air the motor could want. Anyway I took care of that and now I have the car were I can drive it and starts right up. Plugging away at dialing it in now. I appreciate all the help.

[Intropy]

Well I figured i would add an update. After getting the the other spring for the BOV from Chris I decided to check the the throttle body for vacuum leaks and to go thru it. I replaced VSS oring and cleaned out all passage and this is where I found the problem. It was not the throttle body itself or any of the components of the sensors on it causing it to rev. It was a defective vacuum cap that had a small crack that I could not see and when the car warmed up it expand and leaked all the air the motor could want. Anyway I took care of that and now I have the car were I can drive it and starts right up. Plugging away at dialing it in now. I appreciate all the help.

Got your PM. Didn't have time to look at the logs, but basically if the car is running and idling nicely now, you want to set your pickup delay comp, recheck your timing, rescale your breakpoints, and start dialing in your idle% vs target table and your fuel table in the no-load cells. I can help out if you have questions.