Dsm suspension

[Blackmount]

So I was at the junkyard and I decided to pull suspension of a fwd stealth and compare yo fwd 1g dsm.... Conculsion was they are very identicle. Differences include about inch or half inch shorter strut and thinner springs, on the dsm shock. I did compare with the spring on so it could be because of the spring as far as length...reason im interested is because I want adjustible shocks but the evo kit is for awds. onlu side effect from this would nelower ride height so with lowering springs it would be close to slammed. Which, is okay with me.

[Blackmount]

Pics http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/gabby_christopher/2011-09-26_135734.jpg

3\s non ECS stock shock TOP, DSM FWD Stock shock BOTTOM

DSM FWD Rear shock
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/gabby_christopher/2011-09-26_140545.jpg
3S FWD Rear

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/gabby_christopher/2011-09-26_140151.jpg

again height difference, i believe might be the spring at this point...possibly Springs are longeron the 3\s

Not going to make any Positive claims till I go back and try the suspension on the stealth. then we will see what happens. after that..if all goes well, the next step will be testing on a drive-able 3s. AKA my SL

I feel like this would be useful information for anyone who wants Upgraded suspension on their 3s but doesn't want to dump a whole lot of money on Coil-overs when its just a SL, or just doesn't desire coilovers.

So here's what i want to do next

1: Test fit DSM Suspension on Junkyard Stealth
2: Dissasemble DSM Suspension and Stealth suspension, measure uncompressed Shock and Spring length.
3: if all goes well, purchase junkyard suspension for 50$ and test fit and Test DRIVE on my SL
4: if all goes well again....then KYB AGX + TEIN S-Tech.

[stealthee]

People have tried before. They are different.

[Blackmount]

Can you confirm. and I know they are different....so is the EVO suspension that people use.

[stealthee]

People use the EVO suspension with ADAPTERS.

If you really think you are the first person to think of this you are sorely mistaken. I remember several years ago (hell you were probably in middle school) that someone wanted to do this and found out it wont work. On top of that there was a seller on 3si who sold DSM struts as 3s struts and when the buyer got them he quickly realized they weren't going to work.

[Blackmount]

Not to say your wrong..but I will have to see for myself; because i'm that stubborn.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

have you measured the part that bolts to the knuckle? Looks smaller on the DSM.

[MR2]

Not to say your wrong..but I will have to see for myself; because i'm that stubborn.

I like this attitude, and post pictures of EXACTLY how it does not line up or if it does work so others can see :)

[IPD]

1. it won't be adjustable.

2. there are FWD solutions already available for 3/s. LOTS.

3. awd & fwd front 3/s shocks are interchangeable. rates may differ depending on model, but they will bolt up.

[Blackmount]

have you measured the part that bolts to the knuckle? Looks smaller on the DSM. Yes I did. it doesn't look like it in the picture, but the distance between the bolts is the same, as well as the gap for the knuckle.


1. it won't be adjustable.

2. there are FWD solutions already available for 3/s. LOTS.

3. awd & fwd front 3/s shocks are interchangeable. rates may differ depending on model, but they will bolt up.

Please show me this magic invisible site that sells KYB AGX, Tokico Blues D-Spec, or Koni Yellows for 3000GT's. the only aftermarket shocks available for 3\s are non adjustable OEM Replacement KYB's (GR2's) and Blisteins.

for 3000GT's its coilovers or bust if you want any kind of performance suspension or EVO conversion kit but that is only available for AWDs and i can't do just fronts... have you ever driven a car with really stiff suspension in the front, and really soft suspension in the rear? i have. and it was SO Sketchy going around a turn if there was the slightest bump and not to mention weight transfer.

[IPD]

you can't get adjustable unless you've got coilovers. show me ONE solution for aftermarket struts that is "adjustable" without electronic gizmo's. ONE.

you're better off going with springs if you don't want coilovers.

p.s.

coilovers are only available for AWD? um, what planet are you on? i can think of 6 different brands that offer FWD coilovers for 3/s just off the top of my head.

[Blackmount]

All of those shocks I listed are adjustible Dampening (stiffness basically)

Tokico D-Spec
Tokico Performance Shocks - Aftermarket and OEM Shock Absorbers, Struts and Suspension (http://www.tokicoperformanceshocks.com/dspecs_details.aspx)
Adjustible.

KYB AGX
KYB AGX Adjustable Front Shocks from HorsepowerFreaks (http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/partdetails/KYB/Suspension/Shocks/AGX_Adjustable_Front/2116)
Adjustible

Koni Yellows
Koni Yellow Adjustable Sport Shocks from HorsepowerFreaks (http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/partdetails/Koni/Suspension/Shocks/Yellow_Adjustable_Sport/2531)
Adjustible

and i didn't say coilovers are only available for AWD i said the EVO Conversion is only available for AWD.

[stealthee]

So you want to see if DSM stuff fits (it doesn't) and spend $500 on"adjustable" struts, and another $200 on springs? You can get coilovers for slightly more than that, and they are actually made for a 3s.

[Blackmount]

Don't worry I considered pricing.

I actually was just talking about how its very easy to find KYB AGX or Koni Yellows for sale on DSM Classifieds for half price, and sometimes they have springs. there was a full set of KYB AGX the other day 200$ + Shipping. New in box. you can get CHEAP coilovers for slightly more...I've heard alot of negative things for Ksport and Megan (AKA the cheap coilvers) for people who actually look for performance over the ability of slamming their car using coilovers.

[stealthee]

And I have had Megan's on my car for 4 years. I didn't buy them to slam my car. The car handles like its on rails.

[Blackmount]

Often Tracked not drag, but ROADcourse? and also driven everyday? not baby'ed up and down the block?

[stealthee]

I drove the shit out of my car. Ask DocWalt about the mountain cruise we went on. He was behind me and afterwards told me he was amazed at how my car hugged the road. I put over 40k miles on the car with the Megans installed.

[Blackmount]

40k miles in 1-2 years i hope.

[stealthee]

I did the 40k miles in about 3 years.

What difference does it make in how long it took me to get to 40k miles? I was unemployed for 9 months so I didn't do much driving.

[DocWalt]

Haha, yeah, your car was really planted. Especially compared to my weak ass stock suspension :p I got a ride in Kevin's car with his Megans and they felt pretty good for being "cheap" coilovers.

Blackmount, I had Tokico TEMS compatible shocks in my Supra and the adjustments actually made a big difference which was great considering they were so cheap. It was more noticeable than the ECS on my VR-4. There's not any adjustable struts like that for 3Ses and the DSM stuff doesn't fit.

[DG]

Megans are JUNK.

A simple shock dyno test proves it.

Bilsteins, on the other hand, are GREAT shocks, and are easliy converted to take-aparts for revalving.

I would avoid used shocks of any brand, unless they come with a recent dyno plot.

Bilstein, Koni, Penske, Ohlins, Dynamic Suspension, Sachs. Avoid all else like the plague.

DG

[Blackmount]

I go by what most of my friends use and how there car performs vs stock

[DG]

Well - not to put too fine a point on it - unless your friends happen to be racing engineers or work for one of those shock companies I mentioned above - your friends probably don't know what they are doing, and are not qualified to assess "performance improvements".

This isn't (necessarily) a knock on your friends; I know a number of talented racing drivers and engineers who are utterly incapable of determining shock setup by feel. It is a hard problem. And the fact that it is such a hard problem is a big reason why companies like JIC, Megan, Tein, Buddy Club etc etc etc have been able to sell utter shite to unsuspecting customers over the years.

You can learn all about it in "Autocross to Win".

DG

[Blackmount]

Immediate I was going by how there cars react to the change not what they say LOL. And I'm not building a full track car I don't think I need to consult a race expert.... obviously u are no help to me or this thread.

[MR2]

Black mount, you may want to find out who DG is and his history/success in the area, he's not posting to put shit on you, he's posting because he has 100x the experience of everyone on any 3s website combined

[Roybatty]

Black mount, you may want to find out who DG is and his history/success in the area, he's not posting to put shit on you, he's posting because he has 100x the experience of everyone on any 3s website combined

^^this

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[Blackmount]

Experience or not he's coming off as an asshole. Maybe its just lack of tone of voice. I appreciate the advice hut I'm just looking for a sport suspension. And not something full race.. I think the best thing to get is stock ecs shocks set on hard, and then some decent performance minded lowering springs.

[MR2]

He does, but then I can see where he's comming from.

and I agree...Stock ECS is best.


best does not really cover it, fully working ECS is amazing, I'm going to be INSTALLING ECS on a GTO that does not have it (assuming all goes well)

[DG]

Experience or not he's coming off as an asshole. Maybe its just lack of tone of voice.

Your generation does not take correction well - and that's my generation's fault. Too much "you are all individual, precious snowflakes" (just like everyone else). Too much Junior Soccer, where nobody keeps score and everybody gets a trophy.

Notwithstanding, engineering is not like that. There *are* right and wrong answers. And there are plenty of answers that are somewhere in-between all the way right and all the way wrong.

With plenty of things (shocks included) the more "right" you get, the more money you pay - and the "right vs cost" graph is exponential. Not everybody can afford triple-adjustable Penskes (which is far on both axes) so then the question becomes "how right is right enough"?

And that is a totally legit question. To wit:


I appreciate the advice hut I'm just looking for a sport suspension. And not something full race..

Got it. That's entirely reasonable.

But here's the thing - JIC, Tein, Megan, Buddy Club... all those things are way WAY "wrong". They aren't just "wrong" compared to a Penske, they are "wrong" compared to a Monroe Sensi-Track. Those things are JUNK. They DO NOT MEET your requirements for a "sport suspension".

Bilsteins do, and they are pretty cheap - and can be easily transformed into a Real Race Shock, should you ever decide to go down that path.


I think the best thing to get is stock ecs shocks set on hard, and then some decent performance minded lowering springs.

This is an even better plan - to a point. The Mitsu ECS is a hack - but a functional hack. On full hard, the car is heavily overdamped, but the ECS computer is clever about it and it works. You realy can't go wrong with the OEM ECS.

My car has ECS.

DG

[DocWalt]

What's your opinion on Ohlins, DG?

[Blackmount]

DG I can only find blisteins for my car that I believe are oe replacement like gr2s. More info about the "race shock transformation"

And as far as the correction part. Its more so I'm so use to getting bad mouthed for not doing what everyone else does or just wanting to go a different route it kinda sets a sarcastic asshole tone that I get from dissagreement posts. More of a Misinterpretation

[DG]

Ohlins are, in broad strokes, a pretty decent shock. Sort of a slightly better Koni. Their T44 shock was THE IndyCar/CART shock for a very long time.

Be careful adapting EVO shocks to a Stealth - the damping curves will be all wrong.

Bilstein uses the exact same parts in their street shocks and their race shocks. Pistons, shafts, shimstacks - EXACT SAME PARTS. The major difference is that the race shocks have a schraeder valve into the nitrogen chamber so it can be depressurized, and the upper seal has a lip on it so it can be more easily pried out of the body. That's about it. You can get fancy threaded aluminum bodies too... but really, a Bilstein street shock IS a race shock that isn't designed to come apart easily.

So... you drill a hole into the nitrogen chamber, weld on a thread boss, thread it 1/4 NPT, change the upper seal to the racing version - and now it is a NASCAR shock. Ta da!

DG

[Blackmount]

Is there a detailed write up on this somewhere?

[MR2]

His signature links to the main page of the below website


Far North Racing - The Car - ShockTek to Bilstein Conversion (http://farnorthracing.com/shocks_2.html)


I'd suggest reading most of the material on his website...probably twice but it comes back to your best choice unless your actually stripping your car down for racing is still ECS :)

[J. Fast]

Be careful adapting EVO shocks to a Stealth - the damping curves will be all wrong.

DG

I agree the dampening curve for an EVO setup is much different than a 3/S. However, an Evo bilstein will work just fine and can be adapted quite economically. The majority of bolt-on suspensions for EVO are deflected disc monotubes? Deflected disc can be revalved and built to suit, you can also order custom springs no? Lastly, the quality aftermarket options are compression and rebound adjustable and they can also be purpose built and ordered as such.

Adapting evo shocks without revalving and shock dyno tuning = :(

Adapting evo shocks to 3/S, revalving, ordering custom springs, and performance tuning = :)

[DG]

However, an Evo bilstein will work just fine and can be adapted quite economically.

Uhh... Bilstein has a native 3S fitment.

You could make a case for attempting to adapt EVO Ohlins or Penskes, but Bilsteins? Just order the 3S part.

DG

[Blackmount]

Ecs (hard) or coilovers is my decision

[spooling 1g]

The 1g dsm awd rear struts are the same part# as the 3k fwd struts.

[Blackmount]

The 1g dsm awd rear struts are the same part# as the 3k fwd struts.

Can u confirm this. I cannot find information anywhere on it other then coming up with two different part numbers

[spooling 1g]

i just looked it up at advanced auto.The rears are the same and the fronts are 1 number off(prob. brake line mount).But ill be trying the dsm struts and springs with the 3kgt top hats and im pretty sure it will work,once my coilovers come in for my talon ill try and let you know how i made it work.

[Blackmount]

I couldn't find this info. I check advanced, autozone, orileys, rockauto and few other places. Couldn't find any part numbers that were even close.

341184/341183 is 3000gt fwd rear non ecs

341121/341114 is dsm awd rear

[mb3000]

I couldn't find this info. I check advanced, autozone, orileys, rockauto and few other places. Couldn't find any part numbers that were even close.

341184/341183 is 3000gt fwd rear non ecs

341121/341114 is dsm awd rear

He said that the awd dsm rear had the same #'s as the fwd front on a 3/s.

[stealthee]

The 1g dsm awd rear struts are the same part# as the 3k fwd struts.

He didn't say FRONTs, he said the FWD. He was implying rears.

[Blackmount]

Lol what stealthee said. I did the samething when I first read his post. Then I read it again carefully

[mb3000]

:lol: Never said he was right.

[spooling 1g]

maybe i have it backwards and its the fronts.I know one of them was the same parts number.Im looking them up 90tsi and 99base/sl.

[spooling 1g]

When i do it and or find out ill make a write up.Im doing this and evo8 brembos just because i have them laying here not in use pretty much brand new.And if it matters its a 99 base that this will be going on.

[Blackmount]

Fronts sent same. I already tried to confirm this. The bracket that bolts to the Hub is different. U will se what I mean if u ever try to install. I already have fronts covered. Evolution conversion kit.