Power

[x2percentmilk]

Alright alright, we all want lots of power from our N/A's without spending alot of money or going turbo. Well how about those of us who want a decent amount of power without spending too much money or going turbo? Lets find a way to get an organized thread with tips, parts, etc.

Eric from 3sx has alot of good info on his page
http://www.3sx.com/store/cars-3sx/cars-eric.asp

On a side note, Im liking that 40 hp gain, but i wonder how much of that was the super high compression and the e85 tune...
I dont mind higher compression, but I really dont have access to e85 around here, which is important as its my DD.

Anyone have any info on NA tuning? Maybe GT wizard will sign up here share some info :D

Another question: anyone have any ideas for a better intake? I heard good things about a famous NA with a custom cold air intake, I wonder what it entailed.

[TUFFTR]

Alright alright, we all want lots of power from our N/A's without spending alot of money or going turbo. Well how about those of us who want a decent amount of power without spending too much money or going turbo? Lets find a way to get an organized thread with tips, parts, etc.

Eric from 3sx has alot of good info on his page
http://www.3sx.com/store/cars-3sx/cars-eric.asp

On a side note, Im liking that 40 hp gain, but i wonder how much of that was the super high compression and the e85 tune...
I dont mind higher compression, but I really dont have access to e85 around here, which is important as its my DD.

Anyone have any info on NA tuning? Maybe GT wizard will sign up here share some info :D

Another question: anyone have any ideas for a better intake? I heard good things about a famous NA with a custom cold air intake, I wonder what it entailed.

GT Wizard knows alot about these cars and yeah, Would be fantastic if he joined here aswell.

I have done a bit of research into the intake question and based on alot of 3si's members opinions the standard intake is not that restrictive at all.

In regards to gain, I'm making pretty much 200HP at the front wheels with a 3.5L conversion, Dyno tune upper range, Street tune lower range with a WOT AFR of 13.0:1 and that's still running standard manifolds! has a downpipe and exhaust but extractors will be going on before end of year.

Also the 200HP was made with adjustable cam gears set to 0, set to -3 + 1 helps A SHITLOAD better.

A bigger TB and better heads would yeild even more. I think it's all got to do with bang for buck. No use spending $15K on engine work for an NA really

My aim in the end is 220HP with minimal work done. Might look at throwing a set of 1st gen camshafts in for a fraction more lift at no cost at all...
But yeah....first start with the 3.5L (JDM version ONLY for the good 10:1's) and then you have the best base possible!

[Boomer3000]

3.5L would be the best way to go with an NA. Reason being its going to be pretty simple to maintain, Fwd TT would be to much work for the results besides the fact that you will hate driving it asking yourself what will break next

I am hoping to be starting on my full rebuild of my SL this winter and it be at least semi close to done....or at least drivable by NG(paint or no paint lol) But my first step will be getting a 3.5....

Another good person to speak with about this would be xwire, not really sure if he is on this site but you can deff find him on US3S.ORG or 3si.org which ever... He has alot of knowledge on these conversions.

Boomer

[Jstarr427]

Milk I have a 3.5L to bring to that machine shop of yours :). Coolest thing I've seen was 1320VR4's PMP cams in his NA stealth. sounded sick and apparently added a good bit of power.

[Boomer3000]

Milk I have a 3.5L to bring to that machine shop of yours :). Coolest thing I've seen was 1320VR4's PMP cams in his NA stealth. sounded sick and apparently added a good bit of power.
Hmmm where can i find those cams?

[Jstarr427]

PMP Motorsports :)

http://pmpmotorsports.com/

do adjustable cam gears do as much for NA's as they do TT's?

[x2percentmilk]

Yeah I've heard those pmp cams are sweet. not a bad price either, i was looking at the reverse staggered grind.
I've never really considered a 3.5L swap...doesnt sound like a bad idea tho. Are the heads the same? do valves/cams/gears interchange?

How much do you want for that one jstar :P

TUFFTR your HP goals seem to be around what I was looking for in the future, that seems pretty realistic.

[Jstarr427]

The Engine actually came out of a 3000gt so it is THE engine you need. It has spun a bearing and I pulled it out of a '94 3000gt, so it needs to be rebuilt, but the engine wasnt really driven on the spun bearing. I'm sure a good machine shop could do wonders with it.

[TUFFTR]

The Engine actually came out of a 3000gt so it is THE engine you need. It has spun a bearing and I pulled it out of a '94 3000gt, so it needs to be rebuilt, but the engine wasnt really driven on the spun bearing. I'm sure a good machine shop could do wonders with it.

If that was in relation to a 3.5L you 100% need the JDM "Mitsubishi Debonair" Engine. No 3000GT had one.

PMP Motorsports :)

http://pmpmotorsports.com/

do adjustable cam gears do as much for NA's as they do TT's?

They do! My 3.5L would feel great but top out around 6300RPM and just sound like it's going to explode. Wasn't very pleasing. Decided to turn my cam gears to the -3 +1 "standard" as I've seen so often and HELL YEAH. The car would just power through 6300RPM now all the way up to 7000RPM. Even when it got to 7000RPM it wouldn't sound as choked as it did before i tuned the cam gears. I've only ever had my car dyno'd with the gears set at 0. I honestly know know it would make a bit more power with them adjusted.


Yeah I've heard those pmp cams are sweet. not a bad price either, i was looking at the reverse staggered grind.
I've never really considered a 3.5L swap...doesnt sound like a bad idea tho. Are the heads the same? do valves/cams/gears interchange?

How much do you want for that one jstar :P

TUFFTR your HP goals seem to be around what I was looking for in the future, that seems pretty realistic.

Yep the heads are identical to the 93+ NA heads. All JDM Debonair motors have the separate cam/crank sensor.
The cam gears however are DIFFERENT as you'll see on john monnins page.

The 3.5L has the tooth set half a tooth different. This means when you put cam gears on, since they are made for the 3L The marks are actually out. When I installed mine I had to set them all to +4 (Think it was + will have to confirm) for them to actually be to "Zero" on the 3.5L if you catch my drift. That +4 setting is where you then make your adjustments. so -3, + 1 on that would see +1 and +5 (starting from +4)

HP Goals are attainable no worries. 4sp LS1's atm only see my rear end :P

[Boomer3000]

so where would you say your sitting as far as Hp goes then?

[x2percentmilk]

Super good info, thank you TUFFTR.

[Fletch]

Hmm, I am going to look into the 3.5 more after reading this post. Kinda exciting thinking about it, swap could be a fun winter project...

[Boomer3000]

I already have mine planned out only a couple things will change but nothing major, Full rebuild here i come!!

[TUFFTR]

I'm sitting on just below 200HP at the front wheels before the cam gears were set.

[Jstarr427]

If that was in relation to a 3.5L you 100% need the JDM "Mitsubishi Debonair" Engine. No 3000GT had one.

They do! My 3.5L would feel great but top out around 6300RPM and just sound like it's going to explode. Wasn't very pleasing. Decided to turn my cam gears to the -3 +1 "standard" as I've seen so often and HELL YEAH. The car would just power through 6300RPM now all the way up to 7000RPM. Even when it got to 7000RPM it wouldn't sound as choked as it did before i tuned the cam gears. I've only ever had my car dyno'd with the gears set at 0. I honestly know know it would make a bit more power with them adjusted.


I should clarify lol. it is the CORRECT JDM block for the swap that was already swapped into a 3000gt a long time ago. It spun a bearing, and I was contracted to pull it out. now it's just sitting around.

3S's NEVER came with a 3.5 from the factory at any point, so the engine is not 'originally' from a 3000gt LOL.

and that's great to know! I'd bet they'd do the same on a 3.0 as well.

[toddrs93]

Not exactly cheap, but the best mod we have done to an N/A. It DOUBLED the wheel horsepower and can be set-up as a sleeper if you so desire.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w51/toddrs93/stscar021.jpg

[Atrosity]

Not exactly cheap, but the best mod we have done to an N/A. It DOUBLED the wheel horsepower and can be set-up as a sleeper if you so desire.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w51/toddrs93/stscar021.jpg

Haha wow I never seen this before! That is awesome!

[x2percentmilk]

holy piping batman

[Boomer3000]

UM........ (slaps self in face) thats pretty epic!!!

[Boomer3000]

Not exactly cheap, but the best mod we have done to an N/A. It DOUBLED the wheel horsepower and can be set-up as a sleeper if you so desire.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w51/toddrs93/stscar021.jpg

Question is how much would a set up like that cost if i as a consumer wanted it??

[toddrs93]

Well the thing is it was done in several steps, as there are many options.
The final end result actually has a fresh block with low compression pistons now, stock VR4 fuel sysytem, VR4 ECU, SAFC NEO, MAF-T, 60-1 turbo, TIAL external wastegate with 12psi spring, full 3 inch exhaust, 2.5 inch piping all the way through a FMIC, Motorworks external oil pump, various gauges, AEM UEGO, etc.
And there is about $5000 dollars in it with parts, labor, tuning.

Yea the exhaust on there was junk in that pic, we redid the whole thing.

[toddrs93]

I'm going to put together a basic kit,
Like a stage 1 thing, possibly:
56 trim turbo
tial external wastgate with 8psi spring
2.5 inch piping
ss braided oil feed and return lines
external oil pump
2.5" testpipe
vr4 injectors
walbro fuel pump with hotwire
SAFC
boost gauge
oil psi gauge
That should cover the basics to get started, and I could probably do it for around $2700 installed.

[x2percentmilk]

anyone know what these NA's dyno stock at the wheels?

edit: i see 160's and 170's with a crappy torque curve after searching a bit, so nvm haha.

[toddrs93]

anyone know what these NA's dyno stock at the wheels?

edit: i see 160's and 170's with a crappy torque curve after searching a bit, so nvm haha.
Yea usually 170's I think, and we hit 344 at around 10-11psi on a stock MAS and N/A heads.

[x2percentmilk]

thanks for confirming, and the tidbit about the psi :)

[Boomer3000]

Yea usually 170's I think, and we hit 344 at around 10-11psi on a stock MAS and N/A heads.

this is on the 3.0 block correct?

[toddrs93]

yes it is

[GTwizard]

Yep, I'm here.
No boost for me thanks. I just got off the dyno this week end and am not ready to give up just yet. I put this car together in 15 days just before NG10. New cams, (again) adjustable cam gears, own intake, (again new design) and well a few other goodies. But NO boost. I am getting 229.7 at the wheels and think that is not bad for still being 10 to 1 slugs. Running with CEL, bad tune, and , well just did not have time to get ready for the dyno. Went as is. Not real happy with torque, (200) but will work on that next. What was cool is that the HP never fell off. Not at all. Had I a higher rev limit, could have and would have made more no problem. I am stuck with an NA ECU for now, but at Indy ran a VR4 ECU, required much less tuning and ran a lot stronger. I will be watching the threads here and will post as I have more info to share. For now, I think I just out powered most all other (none turbo) NA builds and 3.5 swap alike. Best 3.5 swap I've seen was compu-geek and belive his to dyno 224. Just a couple more ponies for me and I will be at stock VR4 levels. For now, weighing in at 3060, you had better not let me catch you VR4 guys napping at the wheel. If you can't pull some good boost and real quik, you'll be left behind. LOL. If I could just learn to drive this beast, I might just go looking for Eric. LOL.

[x2percentmilk]

^ my hero

[GTwizard]

PMP Motorsports :)

http://pmpmotorsports.com/

do adjustable cam gears do as much for NA's as they do TT's?

Adjustable cam gears give no power at all. You miss understand. If you timing is slightly off than you have less power. All these adjustable cam gears do is let you correct any timing issues you may have. Therefore bringing your horse power back were it should be. If you have no timing issues (NA or Turbo) than adjustable cam gears do nothing for you. Now if in fact you decide to make adjustments to your timing for the purpose of some possable power gains, and you have some of the supporting hardware to support said power gains, than yes, you can squeeze a little more out of what ever set up you have. Just remember, clocking those adjustable cams to 3 retard exhaust and 1 advanced intake will do nothing for you if you have not used a degree wheel first to find 0 anyways. This is a must. or the adjustable gears may just be a waist if time. The reason I run adjusable cam gears is so I can adjust my exhaust cams to take advantage of my long tube headers and tune the cams to the headers. Once this is done you can tune your intake cams to make most of what ever type of intake and runner set up you have. This needs to be done on a dyno. I have not done so yet and I do have my intakes at 1adv and exhaust at 3 rtd. So far I am at 229.7 HP with my 3.0 (.020 over) and other mods. Was it the cam gears, cams, intake or headers that got me here? Let me answer that for you. It is all of it as a package working together as a unit.

[colt45 gto]

could a set of throttle bodies be made for these?

i agree fully with GTwizard on the adjustable cam gears, without high lift cams they are pointless. adjustables ONLY come into their own when high lift (fast road, mild road, mild race and race) cams are used. you need them to dial the valve timing in perfectly.

if someone could manufacture an intake manifold to hold a bank of throttle bodies, then i think this would push the N/A platform to higher hights especially if they are mated to a motor thats been blue printed with 285 cams and high comp pistons, ported intake and exhaust ports, big valves, lightened flywheel and ballanced crank. i'm sure the N/A guys will see a huge difference and better 1/4 times than ever before.

there is so much scope with the N/A that the forced induction guys dont see and the N/A's rev quicker than the forced inductions too.

[SOHC]

Adjustable cam gears give no power at all. You miss understand. If you timing is slightly off than you have less power. All these adjustable cam gears do is let you correct any timing issues you may have. Therefore bringing your horse power back were it should be. If you have no timing issues (NA or Turbo) than adjustable cam gears do nothing for you. Now if in fact you decide to make adjustments to your timing for the purpose of some possable power gains, and you have some of the supporting hardware to support said power gains, than yes, you can squeeze a little more out of what ever set up you have. Just remember, clocking those adjustable cams to 3 retard exhaust and 1 advanced intake will do nothing for you if you have not used a degree wheel first to find 0 anyways. This is a must. or the adjustable gears may just be a waist if time. The reason I run adjusable cam gears is so I can adjust my exhaust cams to take advantage of my long tube headers and tune the cams to the headers. Once this is done you can tune your intake cams to make most of what ever type of intake and runner set up you have. This needs to be done on a dyno. I have not done so yet and I do have my intakes at 1adv and exhaust at 3 rtd. So far I am at 229.7 HP with my 3.0 (.020 over) and other mods. Was it the cam gears, cams, intake or headers that got me here? Let me answer that for you. It is all of it as a package working together as a unit.

I got lightweight cam gears for the SOHC, but I have yet to install them. I would think that they should help the car rev a bit quicker and maybe help low end? Any change in rotational mass should help put some power to the wheels at least in theory. Any thoughts?

[colt45 gto]

I got lightweight cam gears for the SOHC, but I have yet to install them. I would think that they should help the car rev a bit quicker and maybe help low end? Any change in rotational mass should help put some power to the wheels at least in theory. Any thoughts?

it will not make much difference at all, lightened flywheel wil let the engine rev freely and quickly same as a lighter underdrive pully, cam gears just turn its the actual flywheel that takes most of the centrifugal force. a heavy flywheel willhelp in higher rpm's but doesn't help in engine braking, it gets spinning and takes some of the weight and stress from the motor. cam gears will make no difference to how a motor spins up.

to add from my previous post...
these are made for a ford v6 i'm sure it wouldn't be hard to fabricate a manifolt to accept these with a cover over the top.
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/Imgs/PrGal/KFD11b.jpg

[GTwizard]

I was looking into ITBs and at this time have set the idea aside. There was a ton of race teams that went from single plenum to ITB's and found a little more power and a lot more throttle responce. But these are guys that run in and above 9000 RPM range. As I began looking into the ITBs I found that most of those guys that went ITB are back to single plenum/single throttle body. Honda, Acura, and Toyota just to name a few. Go figure. It has to do with drivability. ITB are not good for drags and not good for street. They are best for all out road race conditions. The cost is way too high and that does not include what you would need to do to your motor to take adventage of the ITBs ability to deliver. These also require full stand alone engine management with speed density tuning. This is all high, high, high dollars race only application performance upgrades. In the end, even if I won the big lotto, ITB would never end up in My 3000GT. Although I might consider them on the NSX I would be running. LOL. There is still a ton of work to be done with the NA before running to ITB, and a bunch more fun to be had.

[TUFFTR]

With the adjustable cam gears on my 3.5L set to the standard -3 +1 It made a heap of difference. Before, The car felt great around 3-5500RPM and by 6300RPM it was like you were choking a chicken. adjusted the cam gears and WOW. the car revved to 6800-6900RPM and when it was there, didn't sound ANYWHERE near as choked/blocked up (so to say) as it did before when topping out at 6300RPM. Of course I'm always tinkering with the tune, but yeah, if you went 3.5L, that'd be the first thing I'd do. Before the cam gears were in, I was getting beaten JUST by LS1's. Now with the gears adjusted I have that extra few RPM to pull away from them, It'd great :D

Also, powerband feels so linear aswell. pulls to almost 7000 with the same power from 3000 all the way to 7000RPM. One day I will degree them in properly but I just dont have the knowledge on how to do that yet.


Now, question to those in the "know" Camshafts for my 3.5L. I want regrinds to keep the cost down. I want a mean grind. something with huge mid and top range. I make just under 200HP atw's now (probably a bit over 200HP now with the gears adjusted) and I'd like to see another 10-15 atw's with the camshafts. I want as big as i can go before needing a valve spring kit.

Street/race grind? Or a race grind?

[GTwizard]

Cams. Before you look at cams, you need to do springs. You are already reaching Valve float. A much more agresive cam grind will cause those heavy stock valves to open at a much grater speed than before and they will want keep going LOL. and on the closing side of the ramp, the rate is so fast, the valve will be slow to react and you could even drop a rocker. Spring will help keep your valve time presice. With out good spring rates your valve trane timing will get really sloppy and at an RPM range much less than what you are running now.. Extream duration cams need high compression. lower comp motor need high lift. That was an issue I had last year. I was trying to run endurance racing cams, but did not have the compression todo so. My valve trane will handle any and all cam grinds and at RPMs I could most likely never reach. But I did this so I could test mutiple crazy ass grinds. You should do well with the cams that I run. HKS 272s intake and exhaust. But, with out springs to back it up, your waisting your time. I also run extreem light weight valves to insure no valve trane slop at all. Springs and Valves are not that expensive. It is a good port and polish that runs into time and money. You should also remember that the shape of the valves has a lot to do with the amount of air that can get around them. It will be your heads that make real power. After we had our heads done, even our stock cams felt huge. Low end responce was nuts and would rev till the fuel shut down.. Did not go with better cams untill we had a set up that could take advantage of more lift and more duration. You might even consider VR4heads as they flow a little better. For the power you are looking for, it time to cosider your next step as completing a package. Heads, cams, valves and spring need to be done all at once. To try and do this in a peace meal fastion or one step at a time could just lessen the power you already have. Or at least be a disapointment.

[TUFFTR]

Cams. Before you look at cams, you need to do springs. You are already reaching Valve float. A much more agresive cam grind will cause those heavy stock valves to open at a much grater speed than before and they will want keep going LOL. and on the closing side of the ramp, the rate is so fast, the valve will be slow to react and you could even drop a rocker. Spring will help keep your valve time presice. With out good spring rates your valve trane timing will get really sloppy and at an RPM range much less than what you are running now.. Extream duration cams need high compression. lower comp motor need high lift. That was an issue I had last year. I was trying to run endurance racing cams, but did not have the compression todo so. My valve trane will handle any and all cam grinds and at RPMs I could most likely never reach. But I did this so I could test mutiple crazy ass grinds. You should do well with the cams that I run. HKS 272s intake and exhaust. But, with out springs to back it up, your waisting your time. I also run extreem light weight valves to insure no valve trane slop at all. Springs and Valves are not that expensive. It is a good port and polish that runs into time and money. You should also remember that the shape of the valves has a lot to do with the amount of air that can get around them. It will be your heads that make real power. After we had our heads done, even our stock cams felt huge. Low end responce was nuts and would rev till the fuel shut down.. Did not go with better cams untill we had a set up that could take advantage of more lift and more duration. You might even consider VR4heads as they flow a little better. For the power you are looking for, it time to cosider your next step as completing a package. Heads, cams, valves and spring need to be done all at once. To try and do this in a peace meal fastion or one step at a time could just lessen the power you already have. Or at least be a disapointment.

Wow thanks for the great reply!
I have a set of VR4 heads here in fantastic nick I can use if need be. I Don't mind stockpiling parts over a while and then put them in all in one go. it's running 10:1 compression now. I know of a SOHC 74 24v with huge ported heads and 294 degree camshafts in it, balanced motor etc and that made 254.79HP!!!! (190kw atw's)
I'd like to get it to around 220HP atw's ultimately. That set of VR4 heads I have here I may look into some port and polishing for them to get done. Looking for a P/T job atm during uni to mainly save but a few mods on the side;)

Springs and valves I will have to keep a look out for 2nd hand as brand new I just cant afford it.

Is there a certain port job you would recommend? A basic one, mild one or insane one? as they say do it once do it right.
Appreciate the valuable advice. I won't be able to afford it RIGHT now but I can save save save.

[x2percentmilk]

Theres alot of false info that floats around the internet, especially with something like N/A tuning where not alot of people have solid numbers to go off of. This is a huge bit of good information that most of us can agree puts to rest the "what single upgrade helped your N/A the greatest?" question. I can bet alot of us here would rather do things right then waste our time and money on something that wont matter or will destroy our cars.


Cams. Before you look at cams, you need to do springs. You are already reaching Valve float. A much more agresive cam grind will cause those heavy stock valves to open at a much grater speed than before and they will want keep going LOL. and on the closing side of the ramp, the rate is so fast, the valve will be slow to react and you could even drop a rocker. Spring will help keep your valve time presice. With out good spring rates your valve trane timing will get really sloppy and at an RPM range much less than what you are running now.. Extream duration cams need high compression. lower comp motor need high lift. That was an issue I had last year. I was trying to run endurance racing cams, but did not have the compression todo so. My valve trane will handle any and all cam grinds and at RPMs I could most likely never reach. But I did this so I could test mutiple crazy ass grinds. You should do well with the cams that I run. HKS 272s intake and exhaust. But, with out springs to back it up, your waisting your time. I also run extreem light weight valves to insure no valve trane slop at all. Springs and Valves are not that expensive. It is a good port and polish that runs into time and money. You should also remember that the shape of the valves has a lot to do with the amount of air that can get around them. It will be your heads that make real power. After we had our heads done, even our stock cams felt huge. Low end responce was nuts and would rev till the fuel shut down.. Did not go with better cams untill we had a set up that could take advantage of more lift and more duration. You might even consider VR4heads as they flow a little better. For the power you are looking for, it time to cosider your next step as completing a package. Heads, cams, valves and spring need to be done all at once. To try and do this in a peace meal fastion or one step at a time could just lessen the power you already have. Or at least be a disapointment.

To pose a new question to everyone, ive been looking into fuel control. From what I can tell a VR4 pump with the stock NA injectors should hold ground, at most maybe some of us might need stock vr4 injectors, but what about fuel control?

As my car is my daily driver i've been looking into the SAFCII as it has 2 tunes for low and high throttle. My gas mileage right now is no where near what id like it to be, so I figure thats where the low throttle tune comes in, as I can lean the mixture out as much as possible up until say, 3500 rpsm which i barely reach at 5th gear cruising on the highway. Then I assume the high throttle value we want to tune for 14.7 afr, or do we want to go as lean as possible without knock and timing changes? What happens in the "middle" throttle? Was my gas mileage assumption correct? Also, is exhaust gas temp needed if a good wideband is being used?

I feel like alot of people know these answers from tuning experience, so given that I have none, id figured id ask :)

[Adam7]

Also intrested in what the safc can provide.

[GTwizard]

Just spent a hour responding to all your qestions and they got lost. Don't know what happened. I will try again tomorrow. Must be my sat uplink. But damn that was a lot of writing. I don't know if I can remember all that I wrote. And it was good too. LOl.

[GTwizard]

TUFFTR
I only recomended the VR4 heads as you kind of indicated money save was most importent. You can really onlly do mild port and polish on the VR4 heads or a port match as these heads do not have enough beef to do much more that that. If you wish to do a good set of heads, you will need to have the NA heads worked. Some of the best motors in the world have come from your neck of the woods. Take you time and try to find a head guy out there with a good rep and talk with him. My heads were done by Wells Racing and they are not Mitsu guys at all. They for the most part build big block race engines. But there head guy was one of the best at the time we had our heads done. So we used there service. Do not get used valves and springs. You might consider a used set of stage 3 heads that have allready been fully worked and can be had from a part out. That might be a good deal. But buyer be ware. If you are really going to go through the trouble of going after what might be the best motor you can build for your self, please take the time to do it right. What an other year. LoL. This is not something you can take take lightly or scrimp on. Do it, or do not. Kind of like buying 3 really good tires. I don't think you would do that, would you. Same , same.
I did not build my motor all at once. But I did try to do it in steps that would allow me to take advantage of each step and see more power each time along the way. There was no sence for me to get big cams if the heads could not breath. No sense in doing heads if we could not corrct for AFRs. So an AFC Neo was first. next came all the head work. That was the biggest cost and got it out of the way. About 2 grand complete. The heads allowed my stock cams to come alive. Damn those stock cams made a ton of low end torque. Next was exhaust, than headers. Ran like that for about 2 years saving for the next step. Car was realy fun to drive at that point. from there I had to decide what was next. Not what to add next. what was it that we were going after. Was this to be a drag car? or a road course car? Or just street monster? If I ask you what are your goals, you will say more power and maybe just how much. That is not an answer. You can not build a drag motor and run it on a road course or circle track. Not going to happen. It will not last. Can't build an endurance motor and take it rock climbing or it will not perform well under those conditions and will not last. You must know what you goals are, the application you wish to use your car most and your expectations. You sure as hell may not won't what I have. It may not be right for you. You can build a motor for Max GRUNT low end power or high RPM throttle responce. It will be hard to do both. Not going to happen. I have chosen the latter. I am an RPM NUT and I do not recommend this for everyone. Good example would be 2005 Grand Prix motor. 3.0 liter V10 that make 840 hp at 18,700 red line but only 300 ft lbs torque. No torque needed at those RPMs. Could not drag race with that motor. get my point. You must decide on the application and build for it. Last year I jumpoed the gun and had endurance cams made. I did not have the intake to support such cams and was a waist of time. Too much too soon. So now I have backed down to the HKS 272s and life is good. I have the intake and exhaust to support these cams and all is working OK. Do not get ahead of your self like I did. Slow down and take your time. Take each step one at a time and complete that step. If you cut corners, you are just spending money with little results.
x2percentmilk
As I was explaning to TUFFTR. I can not give a best bolt on for power. Let me explain. Your engine and driveline are a packaged deal. It was ment for John Q public. Saftey, performance and reliability, at an affordable price was the goal. Now you wish to alter that. A good bolt on like turbos or blowers will force the motor to run well above the intended uses of this drive line package and can work well. There is a cost to do it right however and is not cheap. Your other alternitive is to alter the package. This is what we are doing. This package altering is just as costly and can hurt or even fail if nopt done correctly. Just as a turbo car that run lean and melts pistons, we can huirt the NA package as well. You must have a goal as stated earlier. You must be able to tune you mods as a bad tune will make all you work for not. It is tuning that makes or brakes power. Your ECU was designed to compensate for most all normal driving conditions and normal are and tare on the motor. Once you begin altering the peaces it was ment to work with the ECU may not be able to compensate for you mods. This is what happens and why we need some way to alter what the ECU is seeing. That what these tuners do. It allows us to fool the ECU. The AFC stuff works well. Even the little NEO worked good for us. I just ended up going a different rout so I use something else at this time. And x2percentmilk, you are not understanding your tunner. We can cover that latter. I can help, but this is already too long. This is a lot of food for thought and there are some out there that might just disagree with all that I have just spit out, And that's OK. These forums are to help us stay on track with our thoughts and help us make usefull decission about what we might or might not do.

[GordonRamsey]

Cams. Before you look at cams, you need to do springs. You are already reaching Valve float. A much more agresive cam grind will cause those heavy stock valves to open at a much grater speed than before and they will want keep going LOL. and on the closing side of the ramp, the rate is so fast, the valve will be slow to react and you could even drop a rocker. Spring will help keep your valve time presice. With out good spring rates your valve trane timing will get really sloppy and at an RPM range much less than what you are running now.. Extream duration cams need high compression. lower comp motor need high lift. That was an issue I had last year. I was trying to run endurance racing cams, but did not have the compression todo so. My valve trane will handle any and all cam grinds and at RPMs I could most likely never reach. But I did this so I could test mutiple crazy ass grinds. You should do well with the cams that I run. HKS 272s intake and exhaust. But, with out springs to back it up, your waisting your time. I also run extreem light weight valves to insure no valve trane slop at all. Springs and Valves are not that expensive. It is a good port and polish that runs into time and money. You should also remember that the shape of the valves has a lot to do with the amount of air that can get around them. It will be your heads that make real power. After we had our heads done, even our stock cams felt huge. Low end responce was nuts and would rev till the fuel shut down.. Did not go with better cams untill we had a set up that could take advantage of more lift and more duration. You might even consider VR4heads as they flow a little better. For the power you are looking for, it time to cosider your next step as completing a package. Heads, cams, valves and spring need to be done all at once. To try and do this in a peace meal fastion or one step at a time could just lessen the power you already have. Or at least be a disapointment.


How much mroe CFM do the TT heads flow than NA's?

[GordonRamsey]

Theres alot of false info that floats around the internet, especially with something like N/A tuning where not alot of people have solid numbers to go off of. This is a huge bit of good information that most of us can agree puts to rest the "what single upgrade helped your N/A the greatest?" question. I can bet alot of us here would rather do things right then waste our time and money on something that wont matter or will destroy our cars.



To pose a new question to everyone, ive been looking into fuel control. From what I can tell a VR4 pump with the stock NA injectors should hold ground, at most maybe some of us might need stock vr4 injectors, but what about fuel control?

As my car is my daily driver i've been looking into the SAFCII as it has 2 tunes for low and high throttle. My gas mileage right now is no where near what id like it to be, so I figure thats where the low throttle tune comes in, as I can lean the mixture out as much as possible up until say, 3500 rpsm which i barely reach at 5th gear cruising on the highway. Then I assume the high throttle value we want to tune for 14.7 afr, or do we want to go as lean as possible without knock and timing changes? What happens in the "middle" throttle? Was my gas mileage assumption correct? Also, is exhaust gas temp needed if a good wideband is being used?

I feel like alot of people know these answers from tuning experience, so given that I have none, id figured id ask :)


You're never supposed to tune for 14.7. For one it is unreachable. thats what a stock ecu strives for. but if you can watch the A/F ratio it bounces above and below but NEVER TOUCHES 14.7.

[SOHC]

I'm planning a big na build for my sohc and the stock tb is only 54mm. I can get the DOHC 60mm as an upgrade and I see people running larger throttlebodies on there na's. I was wondering if I'd see any gains with a 70mm vs. a 60mm DOHC throttlebody.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/90-99-3000GT-Stealth-70MM-THROTTLE-BODY-CNC-Billet-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1c1598a11eQQitemZ12062 1408542QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries

[colt45 gto]

it sure is pretty, its CX racing, dont see why you cant run a larger TB, your motor can only suck in what the cam and valves alow it too.

rule of thumb on the old way of tuning N/A's inc V8's was to drop 4 pot holly carbs on for greater performance, so it can suck air at a better rate. remember what it sucks in it has to blow out!

[TUFFTR]

Of course it's a better upgrade to SOHC's. Less restriction in the intake. I always found this Bigger TB thing funny, Being in Australia I went out and measured my SOHC TB, DOHC 3L TB, and DOHC 3.5L TB, and they were all the same! Pretty sure they were all a 54mm internal diameter, will have to double check that though....


WIZ - Understood mate. Like you said, I too am doing bits at a time. I got qouted $1000 for custom made extractors. I said - eh, bit too much I think. Found a set of 6G72 SOHC 24v extractors back to the cat for $200 to my door! I said thank you very much! I already have the manifold plates to get welded on, just will need a bit of modifying to work, But hell, I doubt there will be $800 in modifiying for some pipes so here hopes I got me a cheap set of extractors! The engine pipe will be going on the Diamante of mine to open that up a bit (God the stock merge pipe on a V6 is a fucking joke!)

I run a full replacement ECU so I tune and alter all the time, Really making the most of what I have. It's only ever had 1 dyno tune and I've been working on that since. When I land a P/T job I'll be buying a few more hours dyno time to get torque sensing set up properly.
Goal - Weapon of a street car - with a proper drag race once in a blue moon (Did it this year and was a BLAST!!) it ran almost a flat 15 on a damp track, on heavy 19" rims all around, with a bogged launch. Was VERY happy with that. in current trim I can see it doing a mid 14 no worries at all.
Would like all the power up top, 3/4-7/8000RPM would be ideal. Slowly working on it.
I would like to get a set of 2nd hand cam's but it seems they are ALWAYS popping up so it's no REALLY big rush to get a set SOON kind of thing.
Guess I just need a P/T job and to start saving again!

[GTwizard]

How much mroe CFM do the TT heads flow than NA's?

you can find the flow info at 316stealth.com

[GordonRamsey]

I always forget to look there.

Can anyone iterate on my 14.7 "stoich" comment?

[GordonRamsey]

Hmmm.. it confuses me that with the head work you see a huge amount more gained in cfm in exhaust than you do intake. Are these stock cams ground for low end? And can anyone tell me why the TT head table has "XXX-XXX" (a dash in between the numbers)

I believe GT wizard said you can take more out from the NA? Wouldn't that just mean that you can take the same amount out as the tt but the tt is just already started as a larger diameter? (porting)

I also find it interesting that almost all the power separating awd's and fwd's is in the turbos. They should have known the fwd's would be turboed one day.

[GTwizard]

Hmmm.. it confuses me that with the head work you see a huge amount more gained in cfm in exhaust than you do intake. Are these stock cams ground for low end? And can anyone tell me why the TT head table has "XXX-XXX" (a dash in between the numbers)

I believe GT wizard said you can take more out from the NA? Wouldn't that just mean that you can take the same amount out as the tt but the tt is just already started as a larger diameter? (porting)

I also find it interesting that almost all the power separating awd's and fwd's is in the turbos. They should have known the fwd's would be turboed one day.

Don't have a clue about the dash. And why does it matter how a company uses part numbers. But these are different casting. Just as Chevy has about 900 different casting for the small block. We are lucky to have Only 2. There are multiple forums on head porting design and much of this is try it and see. Thare are threads about closing up the base of intake ports as this can increase velocity of an incoming charge at high RPM.
There are also threads about smooth bore runners and ruff bore runners. Each can show an improvement depending on what you would like to believe.
Not sure what you mean when you say "They should have known". That is like saying they should have know you were going to buy one. That makes no sense at all. Not at all. I do not belioeve that most NA's have gone turbo. Not many at all. NA flow patterns differ from turbo. Need to go back to school for that if you wish to under stand the requirment of each. Otherwise you would have 1 head that fits all. Keep in mind that all cars are designed for John Q public. No one gives a rats ass what you or I want or what will do with the car after we get it. Just because you want brembo brakes does not mean all cars should come with brembos. Get the idea. There is a tons of money and sometimes years of time and consideration that goes into the design of a car that will be mass produced. These motors are ment for standard road and highway use for the average consumer. If you wish for something that is not average you would go buy a Lambo or some other freakish car that will blow your skirt up with out touching a wrench. Should "they" also know that I don't wish for grunt but only RPM, or that you wish for grunt and no RPM. There is no motor that fits all catagories of street and racing needs. This most likely does not answer some of your questions, but may help ajust your trane of thought.

[Adam7]

So an safc would be a smart move, Ive asked this question many many times and never really got a straight awnser. Ok what do you think about porting the throttle body, upper and lower intake manifolds? would there be a benefit in doing so?, or are the heads the limiting factor. Just seems there's some more flow we can get out of the stock heads.

[colt45 gto]

think out of the box.....your American! you guys started the tuning trend with V8's back in the day, most were N/A and most were tearing up the strip nightly. its the same thing with less room and less cylinders. dont be scared because its jap lol, its just a V6 motor with injection... play with it ;)

[GordonRamsey]

Don't have a clue about the dash. And why does it matter how a company uses part numbers. But these are different casting. Just as Chevy has about 900 different casting for the small block. We are lucky to have Only 2. There are multiple forums on head porting design and much of this is try it and see. Thare are threads about closing up the base of intake ports as this can increase velocity of an incoming charge at high RPM.
There are also threads about smooth bore runners and ruff bore runners. Each can show an improvement depending on what you would like to believe.
Not sure what you mean when you say "They should have known". That is like saying they should have know you were going to buy one. That makes no sense at all. Not at all. I do not belioeve that most NA's have gone turbo. Not many at all. NA flow patterns differ from turbo. Need to go back to school for that if you wish to under stand the requirment of each. Otherwise you would have 1 head that fits all. Keep in mind that all cars are designed for John Q public. No one gives a rats ass what you or I want or what will do with the car after we get it. Just because you want brembo brakes does not mean all cars should come with brembos. Get the idea. There is a tons of money and sometimes years of time and consideration that goes into the design of a car that will be mass produced. These motors are ment for standard road and highway use for the average consumer. If you wish for something that is not average you would go buy a Lambo or some other freakish car that will blow your skirt up with out touching a wrench. Should "they" also know that I don't wish for grunt but only RPM, or that you wish for grunt and no RPM. There is no motor that fits all catagories of street and racing needs. This most likely does not answer some of your questions, but may help ajust your trane of thought.

That already is my train of thought. They are CFM numbers, not part numbers. The N/A had one number, and the turbo's had 200-207, just as an example. I guess that would be between the 300 and 320 horsepower engines.

[GTwizard]

That already is my train of thought. They are CFM numbers, not part numbers. The N/A had one number, and the turbo's had 200-207, just as an example. I guess that would be between the 300 and 320 horsepower engines.

Sorry about that. yes, the dash is range. Have not been there in a long time.

[GordonRamsey]

Do you build racecars GT or just big power street cars?

[GTwizard]

Do you build racecars GT or just big power street cars?

Are you asking me? If so than yes I can to all. But, I only build what the customer asks for. And build for my self. I do not like to build motors for others. I will if need be. But would rather see your hot motors build by someone like Pampena Motor sports and I just build the car. It is hard to build a motor for someone knowing they are just going to beat the snot out of it than complane when they blow it up. I am more into a classy assemblies for customers looking to look their best.

[TUFFTR]

Well it's a great topic I'd like to see some more member's with there builds. Took my maggie out the other day after not having driving it in a while and YES - I just love the torque the 3.5L puts out. Damn I miss it. Such a fun car to drive. That's another thing I love about N/A's......you pop the bonnet and you don't see much inside the engine bay!! Makes it very easy to work out.

6G72 SOHC 24v extractors have been purchased for $200 so I'll be modifying them to fit and hopefully gain a little bit more up top with the longer runners

[GTwizard]

A couple of folks stopped by today to pick up parts for a GTO. Some stuff I had layin around. They had not been able to come to the TXG so they never heard my car before. It's always funny to see the look on others faces when I fire up the beast. A big grin comes over their faces and they all say the same thing, "what the hell is that!!!" There is something about turbos that just muffle the sound of an angry engine. Turbos have a peasefull kind of sound to me. Peasefull is not for me.
TUFFTR, I know what you mean when you don't take the car out for a while. I have about 1/2 mile of rock road before I find pavement. But once on the payment, only takes about 2 seconds before the idea of a nice sunday drive is out the window as my right food falls to the floor and swetty palm begins ripping at the stick and banging gears. I just kind of hang on for the ride. LoL. I may try again next week to take it out. But I know what will happen.

[TUFFTR]

Makes it even better when FWD 5sp gearboxes go on sale at the wreckers. I know have 2 spare 5sp manual gearboxes, one with 165,000km's and another with 220,000km's on it, with spare clutch flywheel and pressure plate, grand total of $120 for both GB's lol.

So I'm not really fussed if one blows up. So far the SOHC 3L GB has taken the torque and abuse of the 3.5L quite well. Still shifts very smoothly!

[GordonRamsey]

A couple of folks stopped by today to pick up parts for a GTO. Some stuff I had layin around. They had not been able to come to the TXG so they never heard my car before. It's always funny to see the look on others faces when I fire up the beast. A big grin comes over their faces and they all say the same thing, "what the hell is that!!!" There is something about turbos that just muffle the sound of an angry engine. Turbos have a peasefull kind of sound to me. Peasefull is not for me.
TUFFTR, I know what you mean when you don't take the car out for a while. I have about 1/2 mile of rock road before I find pavement. But once on the payment, only takes about 2 seconds before the idea of a nice sunday drive is out the window as my right food falls to the floor and swetty palm begins ripping at the stick and banging gears. I just kind of hang on for the ride. LoL. I may try again next week to take it out. But I know what will happen.

You need to get a video up!

[GTwizard]

Working on it. Will have one up in about a week.

[TUFFTR]

Well I have scored a P/T job and I am having dreams....bad dreams!
Currently run a pretty much bog stock 6G74 with cam gears and a downpipe, in 3 weeks extractors should be fitted. Makes about 200HP ATW's as it is.
I have a spare 6G74 DOHC on the stand which spun a bearing.
I would love the stage 3 3SX heads, but at the same time....Do I save up and buy a 75' crank and make it a stroker? a 3.8L FWD with 270HP+ sounds like fun!

I am dead set about this. I am thinking 11:1 pistons aswell, what do you guys reckon?
Any advice or recommendations?

[TUFFTR]

Mitsubishi have already made 2 different motors that make lots more power than what you've already got. Trouble is that they were only sold as JDM motors. One is the Diamante 30M, a 6G72 that makes 197Kw, the other is the Pajero evo, a 3.5 that makes 206Kw. Both without turbos.


For those who don't know, what you get is variable cam timing,a long duration cam, a very long duration cam with high lift, titanium retainers, mechanical lash adjusters. Better flowing ports that the TT. All from the junkyard too. Why would you want to spend money on anything else? Bad for business for sponsors.
The only tricky part is making it all fit.

Steve

Yes i know about those. The ralliart pajero is basically a 6G74 DOHC but with MIVEC. It won't do anything different to mine with a big cam thrown in. In stock form that'd be sweet, but when it comes time to modify, lol, try finding a set of cams for them, bah, impossible! Although my ECU is capable of running VTEC/MIVEC I have little interest in it really.

As far as bang for buck, and ease of installation go, the non MIVEC 6G74 DOHC is the best drop in replacement motor for an N/A. According to wiki (unless someone can actually show me proof not wiki stuff) the 74 DOHC makes about 194kw and 335nm+ which for a stock engine, is pretty damn insane. I'd almost go as far as saying it's one of mitsubishis most powerful non-MIVEC V6's ever produced.

[GTwizard]

Steve,
Thanks for the input. But we know this already. For me, I was staying short stroke and playing with this 3.0 platform as it were. Could have bought, built and found plenty of other motors. If I was going to do that, Why even stay mitsubishi. Ton's other motors out there. You missed to point. Some of us are working on the motors that came with the cars. Understand. Came "With" the car. Rather simple really.

[TUFFTR]

The non mivec 6G74 quadcam has small intake ports.... it's built for low down torque, not top end power. That's unless you're referring to the earlier Debonair motor but that might be the same too. There's a number of different variants.

Steve

Would you mind explaining? I'm using the debonair motor ATM. According to ASA they have the same heads down to the last nut and bolt as a 3000GT. Revs in stock form to 6300RPM, with -3 +1 cam gears 6900RPM

[TUFFTR]

What's ASA got to do with anything?
It's about as useful as wiki.
The only way to get the correct info is to measure it all for yourself.
Why would you want to modify a mivec cam? it's already 260 ish/ 300 ish deg.
Your T/B measurements are wrong, the biggest are 68mm.
For full throttle AFR, max power is about 12.5 but you want 14.7 in closed loop/ part throttle
All second gen N/A motors have small intake ports, 1st gen are biggger....So regardless, a head swap is an upgrade.

Steve

What! Its the official parts program (not that I need to tell you) how could I not use it a reference?

If you were going to do a head swap, I'd use upgraded heads anyway. I wouldnt bother going through all that hassle to change heads for maybe a few HP?!
Which TB has the 68MM opening? I gather the MIVEC one might as we don't have them in aus :(
At WOT my AFR is dea on 12.5 and cruising it's about 15.5
Why would I want to modify an N/A MIVEC cam, I would assume (again, assume) that at some point, like we all, just want MOAR and MOAR power even with a MIVEC. I've seen how they go in stock form but never seen much information regarding them being modified and the outcomes of it (N/A at least)

Don't the 1st gen heads have the more aggressive cam? As the 2nd gens have the tamer cam as they are the ones with the better flowing head? I was positive of that. Anyway.....I won't be swapping heads on my 3.5L until I buy a set of stage 3's.

[GordonRamsey]

Steve,
Thanks for the input. But we know this already. For me, I was staying short stroke and playing with this 3.0 platform as it were. Could have bought, built and found plenty of other motors. If I was going to do that, Why even stay mitsubishi. Ton's other motors out there. You missed to point. Some of us are working on the motors that came with the cars. Understand. Came "With" the car. Rather simple really.

hey gt wheres that movie? :D

[GTwizard]

I sould have it shortly. I did not take it and have not seen it, but the person that took it for me, and I have not been able to get togther.
This VR4 build is killing me. I will have to have him post it as well. My satilite uplink will not let me do large uploads. It simply fails. I will work on it this week end for sure.

[GordonRamsey]

I'll be looking forward to it.

[GTwizard]

I did talk to the guy today and he will get it up shortly. It is of my car on the dyno and with luck sound. None of us have even looked at it yet. I too am waiting. LoL. It will most likely post on "That other forum" and when I see it I will post a link to it. Or he may just up load to you tube. You tube I hope.

[GTwizard]

This is the link.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0JsdftRv0k

[Runner up]

:drool:

[x2percentmilk]

gosh that thing sounds nuts

[GTwizard]

You should have heard at 8400 RPM with the 8400 rpm rev limiter before I burned it up. LOL.

[TUFFTR]

Oh very nice. I had no idea you were AWD. 230HP at ALL 4 wheels is freeken IMPRESSIVE!!!

[GTwizard]

No sir. It is just an all wheel Dyno. All 4 drums are tied together on a Mustang Dyno. So I have to turn all 4 wheels with just power to the fronts. Does this meen I am really making More? Dunno. I don't think so. But sure would like to get on a 2 wheel dyno. LOL. Most all the cars that show up for Dyno day are VR4s. So we have of course use this Dyno. I am the short bald guy. BTW.

[GordonRamsey]

Hahaha very nice work Wizard! Glad to finally see it. Are you going to go 12.5:1? And I thought it was red? :P

[GTwizard]

Now that I spit the diff out, (2nd time) I have put her away for the winter. If all works out well, She will come out in the spring with 12.5 to 1s, Light weight rods, a lightend crank, and I might even pull the crazy hood and paint her. Just have to see. Has been an ugly duckling for a while.

[Amphiron]

Now that I spit the diff out, (2nd time) I have put her away for the winter. If all works out well, She will come out in the spring with 12.5 to 1s, Light weight rods, a lightend crank, and I might even pull the crazy hood and paint her. Just have to see. Has been an ugly duckling for a while.
Considering e85? Or are you already running it?

[GTwizard]

Not e85. But am thinking E40 for next year. That way I can go back and forth. Pump gas for street and E40 for track time.