EMS Starting And Tuning Help Please

[jspecmike]

Intro
I orignally had purchase the AEM FIC8 from IPS because I thought it was a damn good device for the price. Well short story it turned out to be a pain in the ass. So I decided to bite the bullet and buy the EMS. Only owned it for a week now and I am in love. I purchased the IAT and 3.5 bar map sensor and installed through a wiki link, I was able to get the car started from this cal file

Byron's 3000GT VR4 AEM tuning, maps and info (http://www.cjbyron.com/3000gt_aem_tuning.htm)
(accidently used the stock vr4 cal)

But to my suprise it started over fast and was pouring and did not hunt at idle or anything. I turned the car off after 2 minutes. I than tried to restart it no go, its been almost a week since than and still have had no luck getting the car started. It comes very close to starting but no cigar. Since than I have made my own cal file

92 TT Mods:
15g Turbos
560cc injectors
255 Walbro hotwired
3sx cam gears +1 intake, -3 exhaust
FMIC
Koyo radiator w/slim fans
SS exhaust

I would like someone to please take a look at my cal file and make sure i have everything configured correctly and I did not miss anything. I can e-mail the file, and later I will make a link to where you can download it.

[i3igpete]

put it into a zip file, and upload it in your post. will be easier that way to keep track of old vs. new cal files.

can you describe how it "almost" starts? Does it just crank endlessly or can you get it to sputter a little bit? or does it start and then die immediately?

[jspecmike]

put it into a zip file, and upload it in your post. will be easier that way to keep track of old vs. new cal files.

can you describe how it "almost" starts? Does it just crank endlessly or can you get it to sputter a little bit? or does it start and then die immediately?

Oh yea duhhh lol. It normally cranks endlessly for a while and than everyonce in a while you get a little bit of sputter. I havent had it yet where it starts and then dies. BTW thanks for getting me on here this site seems much better lol.

[i3igpete]

is this your original cal, or did you do the changes i suggested on 3si already?

set your crank injector time table to 35 RAW all the way across.

in engine start -> advanced start -> advanced engine start:

set fuel pump prime to 4 seconds. this will prime the fuel rails to give you pressure BEFORE you start cranking. the way it is right now, the pumps don't turn on until you start cranking. that might cause the injectors to dribble fuel into the cylinder and as a result flood the engine, so it won't fire when teh rails finally do get up to pressure.

crank initial pulse, just make it a straight line from (-40, 40000) to (120,0).

start extra vs temp, make it a straight line from (-40, 40) to (120, 0)


beyond that, your fuel tables are ALL jacked up. You are running boost comp (fuel is automatically multiplied by the map sensor reading) so you shouldn't have that much slope in the fuel curve. we'll tackle that next after you get it started and synced.

[jspecmike]

is this your original cal, or did you do the changes i suggested on 3si already?

set your crank injector time table to 35 RAW all the way across.

in engine start -> advanced start -> advanced engine start:

set fuel pump prime to 4 seconds. this will prime the fuel rails to give you pressure BEFORE you start cranking. the way it is right now, the pumps don't turn on until you start cranking. that might cause the injectors to dribble fuel into the cylinder and as a result flood the engine, so it won't fire when teh rails finally do get up to pressure.

crank initial pulse, just make it a straight line from (-40, 40000) to (120,0).

start extra vs temp, make it a straight line from (-40, 40) to (120, 0)


beyond that, your fuel tables are ALL jacked up. You are running boost comp (fuel is automatically multiplied by the map sensor reading) so you shouldn't have that much slope in the fuel curve. we'll tackle that next after you get it started and synced.

Alrighty just made the corrections you just told me about, making a straight line seems to be a pain in the ass on here btw. Hmmm, Im suprised my fuel tables are that fucked when it caculates old injector size to new injector size.

P.S I reuploaded latest file with corrections mentioned.

[i3igpete]

when you go to edit a value, you should be able to choose in the dropdown whether you want a graph or table. pick table. Then type in one number, type in the other. then select stuff in between using the shift/control button (same functionality as in excel), then right click and pick "calculate". it will linearly interpolate between the two points. This also works in the fuel table as well, you can select a box and have stuff filled in the middle.

OK never mind about the fuel table, it looks like you're NOT using boost comp. boost comp "flattens" out the fuel table to make it easier to see fluctuations in AFR... you're basically mapping out the engine's volumetric efficiency when using boost comp. read this once you get the car started:

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?520811-Let-s-actually-talk-dyno-*tuning*

[i3igpete]

I haven't looked at your idle tables yet, let me know once you get it to fire up and we'll look at that next.

[jspecmike]

I haven't looked at your idle tables yet, let me know once you get it to fire up and we'll look at that next.

Alrighty I will try this calibration file later today.

[TurboSinceBirth]

Boost comp makes tuning quite a bit easier. I had planned on setting mine up that way when I bought an AEM EMS but I realized I barely had time to finish my car let alone learn to tune a standalone so I'll definitely be listening in especially when it comes time for me to go down that route again.

[jspecmike]

Well last night I had luck getting her started. But not with the cal you helped me with Pete, I did try that one first and had no luck at all. I said wth let me try th one that got the car started. Bam it fired over with some persuassion. After letting it run for a bit I shut her sown and ever since than she know fires up right away lol.

[i3igpete]

ok, then just use that one as a starting point. If you're AFR's aren't too bad, next is idle tuning. Use the how-to here (you will need to register):

Wisconsin Street Scene • View topic - AEM EMS Idle tuning • (http://wistreetscene.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=4488)

[DanEboy5]

Hey Pete, one of the things I noticed when helping Mike is, while he is cranking I have to mulipulate the TB a lil. I finally got the car to idle around 1100rpm's. I could drop it a lil but it seemed to stumble too much. It does have a slight miss and I believe I need to check the timing. He had Jim up in WI install the 3sx cam gears and I hope I don't run into too much issues with the timing.

-Dan

[jspecmike]

ok, then just use that one as a starting point. If you're AFR's aren't too bad, next is idle tuning. Use the how-to here (you will need to register):

Wisconsin Street Scene • View topic - AEM EMS Idle tuning • (http://wistreetscene.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=4488)


Hey Pete, one of the things I noticed when helping Mike is, while he is cranking I have to mulipulate the TB a lil. I finally got the car to idle around 1100rpm's. I could drop it a lil but it seemed to stumble too much. It does have a slight miss and I believe I need to check the timing. He had Jim up in WI install the 3sx cam gears and I hope I don't run into too much issues with the timing.

-Dan

I went to crank it over again tonight and of course it wouldnt want to start.

[jspecmike]

I went to crank it over again tonight and of course it would want to start.

Car now starts, it seems to have a mind of its on. I joined the forum and have been reading through it, I got the car to idle at 850rpm and it is sounded healthy lol.

[i3igpete]

i had a similar problem where the car wouldn't start unless i just barely cracked the throttle when starting. if you know you have good fuel pressure, open the TB screw a few turns. you will need to retune the Idle% vs. target table, of course.

After it starts, does the idle wander or does it stay pretty consistent? How are AFR's? do you need to keep the throttle cracked or can you let your foot off? Post your latest working CAL file in a ZIP and I'll copy over some tables that I've played around with to improve cold start.

[jspecmike]

i had a similar problem where the car wouldn't start unless i just barely cracked the throttle when starting. if you know you have good fuel pressure, open the TB screw a few turns. you will need to retune the Idle% vs. target table, of course.

After it starts, does the idle wander or does it stay pretty consistent? How are AFR's? do you need to keep the throttle cracked or can you let your foot off? Post your latest working CAL file in a ZIP and I'll copy over some tables that I've played around with to improve cold start.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpggpXo0cR4 heres a video of the car when I had it running at had dialed in the idle. So as you see the idle doesnt hunt, the afr was rich it was around 11, I was messing with it at one point and had it at 14.7 Also the throttle was not open when the car was running. Here is the latest CAL file that I know starts the car. Also tell me exactly how do I make sure timing is in sync with the EMS? Someone told me this
"You need to sync the timing to start. Down and dirty, go to configure - ecu setup - set ignition, set it at 20, as thats easy to see (assuming you get the car to start).

Press the +/- keys until you get it at 20. Then, again assuming your file you are using isn't junk, rev it up to see if the timing "drifts". By setting it at 20, it should lock at 20, if it advances or retards you need to adjust the pickup/delay comp in the Options --> Full list menu. 1g's typically end up 20-50, 2g's around 130. It makes minor changes so don't be afraid to make changes 10 at a time, as long as your AFR is okay you are good to go. "

[i3igpete]

ok, i added some tweaks to the engine start and cold fueling that should help. However, there are some very bad issues:

-MAP/MAF sensor is not set up correctly. Right now it is set to use a 0-5v MAF (not even the stock karman!), and the sensor is set to the 1 bar MAP sensor (non-turbo). This also explains why the load breakpoints are set up to 100kPa. This leads me to believe this is a CAL file from a non-turbo car.


-Injector delay was set for stock 360cc's, I changed this to evo 550's.

[i3igpete]

ok, in this one, I set the right MAP sensor to the 3.5 bar, disabled the MAF input, rescaled the axes, and gave you a copy of my timing and fuel tables (rescaled). Also played with the microsec/bit value to give you better fueling resolution. I also switched you over to using boost comp.

Remaining issues for you to work out yourself tonight:
-Idle% vs Target table is way too flat. mine goes from 30% at 700RPM to 100% at 1800RPM.
-My fuel curve peaks near redline. Since you don't have cams, yours will peak a lot sooner (somewhere around 4500). The fuel curve reflects the engine's volumetric efficiency curve. do a pull at wastegate boost and report back with a video if possible.

fire it up and give it a drive around the block, let me know how it goes.

[jspecmike]

Just cranks :*( no start not even a sputter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka8XcPuTIXU

[i3igpete]

whoops, try this one. i forgot to rescale the crank injector time table to match the new microsec/bit i used.

[i3igpete]

scratch that, this new one should have pump prime turned on.

[jspecmike]

Im going to try it right now....be back in 10 mins

[jspecmike]

scratch that, this new one should have pump prime turned on.

No go, same results just clicks its ass off, no sputtering no nothing.

[J. Fast]

Have you tried viewing your cam and crank periods when turing it over? Which channels are you hooked up to? T1, T2, T3, or T4? Are they rising and falling as you turn over the engine? And you're sure base timing is set correct and didn't skip?

[jspecmike]

Have you tried viewing your cam and crank periods when turing it over? Which channels are you hooked up to? T1, T2, T3, or T4? Are they rising and falling as you turn over the engine? And you're sure base timing is set correct and didn't skip?

I have not viewd the cam and crank periods when turnign it over, Im not even sure what channels Im hooked up to, they are rising and falling when I turn it over though. I'm almost for certain the base timing was set correctly. I just had Jim from WI do all my work and make sure everything was in timing. Is there something software related im missing, in terms of setting timing?

[i3igpete]

one thing that concerns me is that he's running firmware 1.21 and it says there are a bunch of options that are not set... but they aren't in the user manual to look up. I know that firmware 1.21 is only recommended for certain f-body models, so I wonder if the setup is different for his version.

-Crank *4
-Frequency Out *4
-teeth degree scalar

[jspecmike]

one thing that concerns me is that he's running firmware 1.21 and it says there are a bunch of options that are not set... but they aren't in the user manual to look up. I know that firmware 1.21 is only recommended for certain f-body models, so I wonder if the setup is different for his version.

-Crank *4
-Frequency Out *4
-teeth degree scalar

I can go back to a older firmware, and where do I set those options you just listed?

[i3igpete]

if you roll back to 1.19 (what i'm using), they're not available. but they're in options -> full list on your cal file.

[jspecmike]

if you roll back to 1.19 (what i'm using), they're not available. but they're in options -> full list on your cal file.

If I roll back to 1.19 I can use the cal file that you made? I only updated to the newer firmware because I have the mentality from IT the latest and greatest is the best :-) not the case in this scenario lol.

[jspecmike]

All of these options were turned off
-Crank *4
-Frequency Out *4
-teeth degree scalar

[i3igpete]

I know it's possible to roll them forward using their File -> convert tool but don't know if there's a way to automatically roll back the CAL file.

[jspecmike]

I know it's possible to roll them forward using their File -> convert tool but don't know if there's a way to automatically roll back the CAL file.

You have to manually roll back, I just got it to .19 I will roll back the firmware soon and try the file and see what happens.

[jspecmike]

Just rolled back to v19 firmware, and converted your cal to the older version. No luck :*( still just cranks

[i3igpete]

how open is your idle screw? try opening it all the way, 6 turns or so.

[jspecmike]

how open is your idle screw? try opening it all the way, 6 turns or so.

I called my self adjusting it today I turned it all the way closed than did 1 and a half rotations open. I will try opening it more tomorrow after work.

[i3igpete]

oh yeah thats way too little. when i had my initial cold start problems i had to crack the throttle when starting because not enough air was getting past the idle screw.

[jspecmike]

oh yeah thats way too little. when i had my initial cold start problems i had to crack the throttle when starting because not enough air was getting past the idle screw.

Alrighty I will open it up some.

[jspecmike]

well I'm glad I did not get my hopes up lol. Because it just cranked its ass off once more and that was it.

[cjbyron]

So you didn't sync the timing with a timing light when you first started (ECU install)? You really do need to do that properly before anything else.

As I mentioned in your other thread, your engine temp enrichment curve is probably partially needing to be dialed in. That's why you get differing startup results at different times. Glad my map got your car started but every engine is different so there will be several things to change for your startup smoothing and idle. Accel/Deccel will also be different for your car.

You cannot tune a car over the internet. Not properly. Maybe I am missing something but why don't you just take the car to a qualified AEM technician to get it setup right? You can then learn the program and fine tune it as you please once setup. Is there no one in your area? Or bring them to you (many people bring the AEM qualified person out to them). Save a lot of time and get it done right. Just my 2 cents.

[jspecmike]

So you didn't sync the timing with a timing light when you first started (ECU install)? You really do need to do that properly before anything else.

As I mentioned in your other thread, your engine temp enrichment curve is probably partially needing to be dialed in. That's why you get differing startup results at different times. Glad my map got your car started but every engine is different so there will be several things to change for your startup smoothing and idle. Accel/Deccel will also be different for your car.

You cannot tune a car over the internet. Not properly. Maybe I am missing something but why don't you just take the car to a qualified AEM technician to get it setup right? You can then learn the program and fine tune it as you please once setup. Is there no one in your area? Or bring them to you (many people bring the AEM qualified person out to them). Save a lot of time and get it done right. Just my 2 cents.

I have never heard of a tuner come out to someones house to tune a car and I know damn sure that they wont do that here lol. To give you a little idea how fucked up tuning in chicago is, I called 10 shops and out of those 10 shops only 2 of them will even tune my car. Only one of those shops have done 3S cars before, he will not come out to my house btw to help me get it started, now if I tow it to him than he will do it. He also told me that he prefers if the car can start when he gets it, so I would like to be able to get it to start. I'm also interested in learning the software as well as some of the tuning, why I want to do it myself. No I did not sync the timing with a light on initial startup, I did not have a light. When the car was running though it couldnt of been off it at all on timing because it idled and ran fine. So I dont think that would make my car not start, also I really would like to figure out if its my car or the tune thats not starting the car, is it mechanical or software. It is starting to get cold here and my interest in this car is starting to fade because of the hell it's giving me. So if I dont get some results in a week or two I'm going to just get my coins together take it to a shop and say finish this car, before I put full coverage on it and set it on fire.

[cjbyron]

I wouldn't go to someone that wants the car to start up first. To me that just means they do not know what they are doing. A GOOD tuner will scrap whatever you have in there and go from the very beginning to make sure everything is setup correctly. Trying to go in and tweak up someone else's map, or one that has had a bunch of "hey try this" done to it is a big waste of time. All it takes is one mismatched setting or improper change.

Sorry to hear you don't have someone good at AEM in your area. There are many AEM certified tuners that will travel to you. Maybe not in your state but elsewhere. I can give you some names/numbers. There is also at least one guy on here that will (but I won't speak for him). They won't do it for a 6 pack and must be paid but they are reasonable IMO when they ask. Keyword is a tuner that is qualified. There are many that taught themselves and can muddle though things but that does not make them qualified. I'm sure you realize this but will mention it anyway - you can damage your engine with the AEM setup wrong.

I understand you wanting to learn the software but learning from the very beginning this way you are risking your engine. A qualifed tuner usually has over two+ years of training. It is not a simple system that someone can learn in a week or month or whatever. Best to have it professionally setup and then learn in small steps on your own. That's all I meant.

You have to check with a timing lightto begin the install. OK, you didn't have one. Go get one. Taking shortcuts or doing things half-ass won't work. Once you make a mistake then start changing things on top of that mistake just compounds those errors thoughout your map. Many tables and settings rely on others.

You can get a car to start and even idle. Doesn't mean it is setup right.

Just trying to help steer you away from possibly ruining your engine.

[jspecmike]

I wouldn't go to someone that wants the car to start up first. To me that just means they do not know what they are doing. A GOOD tuner will scrap whatever you have in there and go from the very beginning to make sure everything is setup correctly. Trying to go in and tweak up someone else's map, or one that has had a bunch of "hey try this" done to it is a big waste of time. All it takes is one mismatched setting or improper change.

Sorry to hear you don't have someone good at AEM in your area. There are many AEM certified tuners that will travel to you. Maybe not in your state but elsewhere. I can give you some names/numbers. There is also at least one guy on here that will (but I won't speak for him). They won't do it for a 6 pack and must be paid but they are reasonable IMO when they ask. Keyword is a tuner that is qualified. There are many that taught themselves and can muddle though things but that does not make them qualified. I'm sure you realize this but will mention it anyway - you can damage your engine with the AEM setup wrong.

I understand you wanting to learn the software but learning from the very beginning this way you are risking your engine. A qualifed tuner usually has over two+ years of training. It is not a simple system that someone can learn in a week or month or whatever. Best to have it professionally setup and then learn in small steps on your own. That's all I meant.

You have to check with a timing lightto begin the install. OK, you didn't have one. Go get one. Taking shortcuts or doing things half-ass won't work. Once you make a mistake then start changing things on top of that mistake just compounds those errors thoughout your map. Many tables and settings rely on others.

You can get a car to start and even idle. Doesn't mean it is setup right.

Just trying to help steer you away from possibly ruining your engine.

I appreciate your feedback, my goal was to learn without risking my engine lol. I want a new motor and plan on getting a new one built but not this soon ;-) Starting the car and letting it run even if the timing was off, wouldnt damage anything would it, not at just idle?

[niterydr]

How is this coming along?

[DanEboy5]

How is this coming along?

He actually found some metal in the pan! So, he is planning on a rebuild.

[mb3000]

He actually found some metal in the pan! So, he is planning on a rebuild.

That's some tough luck. Hate to see that.

[DanEboy5]

Yeah it looks like I will be pulling his motor soon. I forgot to mention it was the thrust bearing he found. I told him the magnetic drain plugs from 3sx can be a life saver! Well, once again my young padawon learned from the master! lol So, he now wants to go all forged like the BIG boys and get some serious HP!

[jspecmike]

UPDATE
-----------

As Dan has said I found a thrust bearing in the engine and am doing a rebuild, I will continue off the most recent cal file that Pete was nice enough to make for me. My steps are as follows this time

1. Get car started with the cal file

2. Hit it with a timing light and adjust if need be (going by this video here)
http://www.streetfire.net/video/AEM-EMS-Set-Base-Ignition_727975.htm

3. Make sure idle is correct

4. Work out the issues Pete was talking about

"Remaining issues for you to work out yourself tonight:
-Idle% vs Target table is way too flat. mine goes from 30% at 700RPM to 100% at 1800RPM.
-My fuel curve peaks near redline. Since you don't have cams, yours will peak a lot sooner (somewhere around 4500). The fuel curve reflects the engine's volumetric efficiency curve. do a pull at wastegate boost and report back with a video if possible. "

Does these steps sound about right?