tranny removal?. clutch chatter..

[shmoo]

heyah,

i'm considering removing my tranny again. which is somewhat of a task on the floor in the garage.

the reason being: i'm getting a lot of clutch chatter again. and there's already a little "make shift" work to say the least :lol:

but i'm thinking the what, 12 mm bolts around the pressure plate need to be tightened.. at least that's what i'm hoping.

and i plan on changing out my throw out bearing again. anything else?

should i even be concerned about the clutch chatter?

thanks

_isiah

[Hans@GZP]

Does it just chatter at idle? If so. Live with it like everyone else lol

[shmoo]

the only time i notice the clutch chattering is at idle. other times i can't really hear it. it seems bad at idle.. it really doesn't bug me, i'm just worried about something braking.

ediT: any way i can tell if it's going all the time?

_isiah

[speedy25]

Noises at idle are usually the throwout bearing. Other noises can be the disk springs coming loose. If your pressure plate bolts were loose you would have other problems.

-SP

[shmoo]

so you're also saying not to worry about it. my clutch is unsprung. hohmm. i thought it was clutch chatter. sounds like funny rod knock until you push down on the clutch.

more advice.

_isiah

[CoreyB]

Try a heavier trans oil.

[shmoo]

Try a heavier trans oil.

alright. maybe some redline? but what thickness?

i believe the tranny has royal purple and lucas right now.

and are you saying to do that along with removing the tranny and trying to tighten those pressure plate bolts?

and your signature is fun, i always have to watch it a couple times.

_isiah

[CoreyB]

If you have lucas with redline then I wouldnt bother changing it. Syncromesh is something that people run a lot, it is thin and can cause a death rattle sometimes.

[mb3000]

The life span of that crap is about the same as engine oil.

[shmoo]

i'm running lucas and royal purple in the trans axle,

with lucas and probably castrol in the transfer case..

i quit with synchromesh after i started dealing with my transfercase..

and to coryb, i didn't think that that the fluid would affect the clutch chatter..

is clutch chatter not the bolts on the pressure plate being too loose?

_isiah

[DuTTch]

isit a 6 puckclutch? my old one rattled like crazy, drove me nuts, specially in stop and go traffic or driving up a slanted driveway. Made me buy a base atx 3000GT

[shmoo]

^^yup, it's an upsprung six puck.

i really don't mind the chatter. i just don't want the chatter (possibly coming from loose bolts) to fall apart. i'd rather just take it apart.

how can i tell if my clutch chatter is actually an issue? what exactly is it? loose pressure plate bolts?

thanks everyone

_isiah

[Hans@GZP]

Pressure plate bolts just don't come loose unless you never tightened them in the first place.... and then the clutch would never engage. So, it's 99% not your pressure plate bolts if you can still drive the car normally. The chatter can be caused by the hub inside the disc being a little loose.

[DrGonzo]

Mine has been rattling like crazy lately and I have tried everything I can think of. New Throw-out bearing, Input Shaft bearing, Checked the clutch and PP "Stock"....etc!

I am using syncromesh and I'm thinking I need to move up to something thicker or use a 70/30 mix (70% with mobile1 75w90) and see if that quiets things down any.

[CoreyB]

Put in the factory recommended non synthetic oil

[shmoo]

thanks everyone^^^

well i'll take another step away from the notion that it's the bolts on the pressure plate.

if i keep worrying about it, i'll just remove the tranny and to the tob, and maybe this input shaft bearing.

are you talking about gear oil, or motor oil. i generally tun a combination of royal purple, and lucas in my transmission/ while i though thick junk into my transfercase, since she won't stop leaking..



thank you~~! and like i said it's hardly annoying me. i just don't want a break

and, Hans, can the hub inside of this "clutch" disk be tightened?

AND, now i keep hearing some very audible buzz whenever i shut the car off. sounds like a pissed off bug that's gotten himself stuck amongst pickles.it seems like it's coming from under my head unit. is this some type of arching issue or something. i know the wiring done hasn't been near professional grade.

_isiah

[DrGonzo]

thanks everyone^^^

well i'll take another step away from the notion that it's the bolts on the pressure plate.

if i keep worrying about it, i'll just remove the tranny and to the tob, and maybe this input shaft bearing.

are you talking about gear oil, or motor oil. i generally tun a combination of royal purple, and lucas in my transmission/ while i though thick junk into my transfercase, since she won't stop leaking..



thank you~~! and like i said it's hardly annoying me. i just don't want a break

and, Hans, can the hub inside of this "clutch" disk be tightened?

AND, now i keep hearing some very audible buzz whenever i shut the car off. sounds like a pissed off bug that's gotten himself stuck amongst pickles.it seems like it's coming from under my head unit. is this some type of arching issue or something. i know the wiring done hasn't been near professional grade.

_isiah

Does the rattle seem to go away when you press in the clutch?

Mine went away for the most part. I would start with changing out the tranny fluid for something thicker and see if that helps before dropping the tranny.

I am actually wondering if there is something loose inside mine. I used a stethoscope on mine and most of the noise was coming from the end case. so I am wondering if I have some roller bearing "besides the input shaft bearing" making all the damn noise.


BTW: The noise you are hearing is the damn door buzzer behind the radio. Probably so old and worn it sounds like a pissed off bug now...LMFAO!!!!!

[CoreyB]

I have heard the reverse idler gear can float and rattle.

[shmoo]

Does the rattle seem to go away when you press in the clutch?

Mine went away for the most part. I would start with changing out the tranny fluid for something thicker and see if that helps before dropping the tranny.

I am actually wondering if there is something loose inside mine. I used a stethoscope on mine and most of the noise was coming from the end case. so I am wondering if I have some roller bearing "besides the input shaft bearing" making all the damn noise.

BTW: The noise you are hearing is the damn door buzzer behind the radio. Probably so old and worn it sounds like a pissed off bug now...LMFAO!!!!!


it's hardly a rattle, it's more like a nice tasty knock. and yes, it completely goes away if i engage the clutch.it knocks just as often if not more than my lifters tick.. unless the clutch is engaged.


I have heard the reverse idler gear can float and rattle.
hohmm. it's really less of a rattle. i say a rattle can be fun, this sounds broken. it's like a "tak tak tak tak tak tak tak tak! like i'm happy to shut my car off so she doesn't have to listen/ deal with all that taking.

and if it is this so called idler gear, this is actually inside the tranny's gears, isn't it? i've taken my tranny off three times, but i'm a little worried to actually open her up.

_isiah

[DrGonzo]

Rattle, Knock... it just sounds like something is broken and banging around! LOL

Yeah mine is the same noise and the same issue that it goes away when I push in the clutch. That is why I believe it is something internal with the trans itself. When you push in the clutch it is disengaged, the internals of the trans are not loaded and the noise goes way. When the internals have a load "clutch engaged and in neutral" it makes the noise.

Going to try the heavier gear oil and see if that helps any as I know the syncromesh is pretty thin on it's own.

I'll try and get a decent video of the sounds tonight and post it up.

[shmoo]

suhweet, i'll go wipe the rain from my car and start waxing

[J. Fast]

Take a stethiscope and hold it on the endcover, midcase, and bellhousing. Next, pull the plastic fender deflector on the passenger side and expose the trans input, intermediate, and shift fork positions on the trans. Have someone start the car on stands and have a listen to everything while you load and unload the trans with the clutch. If there is slack on one of the shafts or something is rattling it will resonate thru one of the cases or end cover and you will hear it thru the stethi. I use a Steelman Chassi Ear all the time to find wierd noises and what not. Give it a try, it works!

[shmoo]

Take a stethiscope and hold it on the endcover, midcase, and bellhousing. Next, pull the plastic fender deflector on the passenger side and expose the trans input, intermediate, and shift fork positions on the trans. Have someone start the car on stands and have a listen to everything while you load and unload the trans with the clutch. If there is slack on one of the shafts or something is rattling it will resonate thru one of the cases or end cover and you will hear it thru the stethi. I use a Steelman Chassi Ear all the time to find wierd noises and what not. Give it a try, it works!

that actually sounds like fun. i'll see if i can get my hands on a stethiscope . but what else could it be besides loose bolts? what is clutch chatter. if it is these slacking shafts, does that constitute a rebuild, or can i just open the transmission up and replace the shaft?

thank you

_isiah

[J. Fast]

I would say "clutch chatter" is a discrepancy between the flywheel, clutch disc (to include hub), and/or pressure plate. Chatter is isolated to just the pressure plate, clutch disc / hub, and the flywheel. When a clutch chatters it generally means one of the clutch interface components is not hitting square. In other words, the pressure plate, disc, or the flywheel is not hitting the adjacent contact area square which results in overheating and grabbing, slipping, or skipping. A few things can cause that.

The first could be heat or warpage. Say you like to slip your clutch or it's dragging and it gets hot, well, the flywheel and pressure plate surfaces will warp similar to standard brake rotors. When the metal faces become hot they warp. The warpage creates a non uniform clamping surface in which eventually leads to the clutch disc not grabbing evenly. In turn it "bounces" or "skips" which causes chatter.

The second cause of chatter can be a tell tale sign of the condition of the pressure plate. We rely on pressure plate springs to clamp the pressure plate evenly with the clutch disk and flywheel surfaces and demand they hold the clutch disc/hub to the flywheel. Over time it's possible for the spring’s performance to decline in the pressure plate. They may begin to lose their holding capability which leads to a non uniform clamping surface due to uneven load distribution on the clutch disc to flywheel interface. The unbalanced clamping load leads to the bouncing or slipping of the disc which results in chattering.

Next cause might be something caused by a lack of precision. Say your flywheel is not decked correctly and the surface, step height, or cut height is out of spec? Any of those conditions may cause a clutch to either slip and grab (which in turn will cause a clutch to heat up and warp), or wear the clutch disc unevenly which will throw it out of balance by heating it unevenly which will cause it to grab and skip, or "chatter".

Last thing that comes to mind is the condition and composition of the hub/disc. Depending on the style of clutch hub being used, disc composition, power requirement, and driver feel there's a broad range of selections of hub/discs. Some hub discs have a higher thermal capacity and stress/strain tolerance than others. Additionally they may include some sort of mechanical advantage device such as springs to help absorb some of the rotational energy. Well, over time the load, temperature cycling, stress and strain may take its toll on some of the functional designed holding capacity parts. They may become dislodged and become wedged between the pressure plate, disc, or flywheel. Since there's an obstruction in the contact areas which prevents them from interfacing evenly, the disc isn't clamped evenly and may yet again skip or chatter.

There are a few other things I might describe or others may describe but for the most part (off the top of my head) I would describe clutch chatter as the grabbing or slipping of the disc due to heat or improper balance in the clutch assembly. A bad TOB is not clutch chatter, a dragging clutch is not clutch chatter, a bad output shaft is not clutch chatter, transmission noise... not clutch chatter, and etc. Just my .02

Jeremy

[DrGonzo]

So I got the video for the trans noise. Ignore the video and just pay attention to the sounds.

http://youtu.be/PEbiT-Y36lw


Edit: I would embed the video here but it seems Alan did not install the YouTube Link Parser And I'm not going to spend all night trying to guess/search as to what the BB Code tags are!

[J. Fast]

Ohh damn, that would drive me nuts Greg! Goes away when you depress the clutch?

[DrGonzo]

Yep!!! Going to try a heavier weigh gear oil and see if that helps. Running straight Penzoil Syncromesh right now. Going to pick up some Amsoil.

[shmoo]

thanks a lot jeremy! very helpful!! can you describe the contact points? as in exactly where on each piece that contact is made. and which ones are prone to heat up faster than others. flywheel, disk, pressure plate, output shaft? i've got some questionable work done that i'm sure some of you know about.

i'm thinking i'll take my tranny off again.just to replace the throw out bearing, resurface my flywheel, i should replace my clutch disc.. does anyone know where i can get a suitable unsprung disc for my spec stage four six puck pressure plate? is there anyway to inspect a pressure plate? what about light weight flywheels? i've heard bad things.

i currently have a mix of cheap 75 90 and probably some 75 90 or near it castrol in the transfer case. and i've got royal purple and lucas in the transmission. what is the best weight and brand to have in both? i like to have something cheap in the transfer case because it leaks still.
if ya say redline, where is the most reasonable place to get it?

y gonzoe, i questioned synchromesh the moment i put it in. what's the deal with amsoil? where do you get it?

_isiah

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Ahh Spec clutch. Should have said that in the first post. I can tell you all about a Spec clutch chattering when engaged at idle. Their disc quality control is crap at best. The rivets that held mine together were improperly sized and off-center. My Spec 4+ blew itself apart, and I've found countless others who've had the same issue. I ignored it thinking it was just a throw-out bearing because it went away with the clutch pedal depressed, and the hub eventually separated from the disc. I ended up having the disc properly rebuilt by a local clutch manufacturer. My advice is to get that disc out of there asap.

As far as oils...Mobil-1 Full Synthetic 10W-30 in the trans, and Mobil-1 Full Synthetic 75W-90 in the x-fer, 5 years of running those, 5 years of perfect shifting (with massive amounts of abuse). Prior to the 10W-30 I ran 75w-90 and 2nd gear would grind sometimes.

[DrGonzo]

Yeah I'm thinking mine is due to the fluid I'm running. I still have a stock clutch so I doubt mine is actual clutch chatter!! Might pick up the fluid tonight and get it changed out.

[shmoo]

Ahh Spec clutch. Should have said that in the first post. I can tell you all about a Spec clutch chattering when engaged at idle. Their disc quality control is crap at best. The rivets that held mine together were improperly sized and off-center. My Spec 4+ blew itself apart, and I've found countless others who've had the same issue. I ignored it thinking it was just a throw-out bearing because it went away with the clutch pedal depressed, and the hub eventually separated from the disc. I ended up having the disc properly rebuilt by a local clutch manufacturer. My advice is to get that disc out of there asap.

As far as oils...Mobil-1 Full Synthetic 10W-30 in the trans, and Mobil-1 Full Synthetic 75W-90 in the x-fer, 5 years of running thos
e, 5 years of perfect shifting (with massive amounts of abuse). Prior to the 10W-30 I ran 75w-90 and 2nd gear would grind sometimes.

neiice, i'm going to have to come back and read this a couple more times.. sounds like a good plan.

do you remember what the clutch service was called, and what you payed?

_isiah

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

neiice, i'm going to have to come back and read this a couple more times.. sounds like a good plan.

do you remember what the clutch service was called, and what you payed?

_isiah

The place is Rochester Clutch & Brake, they've been in business for 75+ years, cost me $80. I have a thread here somewhere with more details on it.

[J. Fast]

Is that oil on stock synchros or bronze ones? I've heard more than a few mention using 30 weight oil in the gearbox. Personally, I Just too much of a scardy cat to try it out cuz trans parts cost an arm and a leg. Out of curiosity, what made you or who convinced you to put traditional motor oil in there?

[shmoo]

yeeah, i saw the weights that seemed like motor oil weights, but i figured mobile one made transaxle fluid the way you were talking. really.. straight up motor oil. it's not like i know what either are made of, but hmmm..

_isiah

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Is that oil on stock synchros or bronze ones? I've heard more than a few mention using 30 weight oil in the gearbox. Personally, I Just too much of a scardy cat to try it out cuz trans parts cost an arm and a leg. Out of curiosity, what made you or who convinced you to put traditional motor oil in there?

Stock synchros. The previous owner of my VR4 is the one who convinced me when I mentioned 2nd gear was getting hard to get into, especially when cold. He talked to Getrag directly and they told him the manual was wrong, and 10w-30 is what belonged in their gearbox. Said that's what he had always run since he found out, and never had any issues. Sure enough, as soon as I started running it, I no longer had issues. Third-party information, but it works mint.

[shmoo]

The place is Rochester Clutch & Brake, they've been in business for 75+ years, cost me $80. I have a thread here somewhere with more details on it.


Stock synchros. The previous owner of my VR4 is the one who convinced me when I mentioned 2nd gear was getting hard to get into, especially when cold. He talked to Getrag directly and they told him the manual was wrong, and 10w-30 is what belonged in their gearbox. Said that's what he had always run since he found out, and never had any issues. Sure enough, as soon as I started running it, I no longer had issues. Third-party information, but it works mint.

grossly interesting.

i think i'll try it..

and the idea that better gear oil can quiet the clutch chatter down? will it keep the temp down?

i think i'm going to put 10w30 in the transmission. are you also running 10w30 in your transfer case?
should i be going with a high end oil? <whatever that means.. i'm hearing mobile one? .

and get a transmission cooler. is that acceptable at this point?

_isiah

ediT: whooops,

"As far as oils...Mobil-1 Full Synthetic 10W-30 in the trans, and Mobil-1 Full Synthetic 75W-90 in the x-fer, 5 years of running thos
e, 5 years of perfect shifting (with massive amounts of abuse). Prior to the 10W-30 I ran 75w-90 and 2nd gear would grind sometimes."

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

grossly interesting.

i think i'll try it..

and the idea that better gear oil can quiet the clutch chatter down? will it keep the temp down?

i think i'm going to put 10w30 in the transmission. are you also running 10w30 in your transfer case?
should i be going with a high end oil? <whatever that means.. i'm hearing mobile one? .

and get a transmission cooler. is that acceptable at this point?

_isiah

ediT: whooops,

"As far as oils...Mobil-1 Full Synthetic 10W-30 in the trans, and Mobil-1 Full Synthetic 75W-90 in the x-fer, 5 years of running thos
e, 5 years of perfect shifting (with massive amounts of abuse). Prior to the 10W-30 I ran 75w-90 and 2nd gear would grind sometimes."

If your clutch noise is the hub rivets coming loose, which being a Spec I highly suspect it is, there isn't a gear oil in the world that will quiet it down.

I only run Mobil-1 full syn. because that's what the previous owner ran, and the idea of going against the manual still makes me cringe, so I haven't ventured into other brands (run-on sentence much?).

I don't know anything about transmission coolers other than Jackhammer ingeniously made one, and a few others have. Unless you're running Pike's Peak I doubt it's necessary.

[shmoo]

If your clutch noise is the hub rivets coming loose, which being a Spec I highly suspect it is, there isn't a gear oil in the world that will quiet it down.

I only run Mobil-1 full syn. because that's what the previous owner ran, and the idea of going against the manual still makes me cringe, so I haven't ventured into other brands (run-on sentence much?).

I don't know anything about transmission coolers other than Jackhammer ingeniously made one, and a few others have. Unless you're running Pike's Peak I doubt it's necessary.

i know it's probably not necessary. but i imagine it'll help a little.

how does a universal cooler work anyways? does the fluid actually pass through the piece, or does water pass through the piece? or..


_isiah

i'd like to send this clutch off, but i don't really wanna be without a car for that long. can i run a nearer to stock clutch disc with my stage four pressure plate?

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

i know it's probably not necessary. but i imagine it'll help a little.

how does a universal cooler work anyways? does the fluid actually pass through the piece, or does water pass through the piece? or..


_isiah

i'd like to send this clutch off, but i don't really wanna be without a car for that long. can i run a nearer to stock clutch disc with my stage four pressure plate?


A universal cooler relies on there being a pump already in use. Your manual transmission has no pump, which is why it's a feat of ingenious engineering to make a manual trans. cooler work.

The universal ones act just like a radiator. Fluid passes through them and air passes over the cooler fins to cool the fluid.

Couldn't tell you about using a stock disc. I looked into it briefly and from what I can tell the Spec pressure plate is a painted stock plate, but they don't release that information, so maybe.

[shmoo]

hmmm, thanks

[green-lantern]

So I got the video for the trans noise. Ignore the video and just pay attention to the sounds.

3000gt/Stealth trans noise - YouTube (http://youtu.be/PEbiT-Y36lw)


Edit: I would embed the video here but it seems Alan did not install the YouTube Link Parser And I'm not going to spend all night trying to guess/search as to what the BB Code tags are!

Mine sounds a good bit like that. I don't know if you heard it at BRG or not. I've been told it's TOB but I have a SPEC clutch and synchromesh in the trans. lol not to mention the OBX LSD.

With the car in neutral it's hard to believe it's a transmission sound though. A friend of mine had the issue and ended up putting a bunch of grease on the TOB and it stopped. From what I understand this is pretty common issue.

[DrGonzo]

Well when the trans is in neutral the internals are still turning. I have changed every part that supposedly causes it but it still rattles like crazy!!!

[green-lantern]

Well when the trans is in neutral the internals are still turning. I have changed every part that supposedly causes it but it still rattles like crazy!!!

I thought only a few parts move in neutral, the diff isn’t turning anyway. I’m not real sharp with transmissions though.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Well when the trans is in neutral the internals are still turning. I have changed every part that supposedly causes it but it still rattles like crazy!!!


You haven't changed the clutch, which would be my first guess after listening to it.

[DrGonzo]

It's not the clutch making the noise. it's internal. I mic'd the trans and it is coming from inside the case not the bell-housing.

[J. Fast]

It's not the clutch making the noise. it's internal. I mic'd the trans and it is coming from inside the case not the bell-housing.

Glad you eliminated the bell and engine side.

Can you isolate it to a shaft? Try putting the stethi on the shift fork impregnations on the end cover and see if it resonates thru the shift fork rails. Then check the same by listening to the input shaft right near the end plug.

I was thinking you might have a piece of a shifter return spring or a detent spring that may have broke. That's really really common. A few of the trans I have opened have broken hub/slider springs. The springs get brittle and snap. They then lace together and the detent ball rattles around in the hub/slider. The roller balls bounce off the back of the gears like a popcorn kernel which makes it sound like a rattle.

Hopefully the info helps Greg.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

It's not the clutch making the noise. it's internal. I mic'd the trans and it is coming from inside the case not the bell-housing.

Does the car drive?

[CoreyB]

Reverse idler gear

[DrGonzo]

Does the car drive?

Yep car drives just fine!


Reverse idler gear

If so how do you go about fixing it?? What causes it?

[CoreyB]

I read about it awhile back, seems overtime the idler loosens, I have heard a heavier gear oil helps a lot. I had a friend with a trans in his RTTT that would kinda spool up and bang moving the whole engine. I put in the factory recommended oil and it never did it again.

[green-lantern]

I’m going to try a different oil and see if it makes any difference. I’ve changed it once already to check for metal. It’s time to do it again anyway.

[enollava]

I dunno, that sounds like the TOB to me. It is on the shaft that goes into the body of the trans, and isn't connected in to the bell housing, so I could easily see the sound traveling down the shaft into the main case and you hearing it there best with a scope. My rattle sounded just like that, and when I replaced the TOB and lubed it some, the sound went away for a long time. Also remember, it goes away when you push the clutch pedal. Also, you said the car seems to shift fine otherwise. If something inside the trans were really so off that it was rattling, I doubt you would be shifting good. Inside the trans, things are rotating and meshing together. A rattle/loose part in there I would think would make for trouble shifting.

[DrGonzo]

TOB and Input shaft bearing are brand new. Still sounds like shit so neither fixed the problem.

[green-lantern]

TOB and Input shaft bearing are brand new. Still sounds like shit so neither fixed the problem.

Now this is what I was told by a friend but he replaced the TOB and it still did it. Later he pulled it out and put a liberal amount of grease on it and it went away. I assume it’s true but it might not be your problem or mine. Did you use an OEM TOB?

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

I dunno, that sounds like the TOB to me. It is on the shaft that goes into the body of the trans, and isn't connected in to the bell housing, so I could easily see the sound traveling down the shaft into the main case and you hearing it there best with a scope. My rattle sounded just like that, and when I replaced the TOB and lubed it some, the sound went away for a long time. Also remember, it goes away when you push the clutch pedal. Also, you said the car seems to shift fine otherwise. If something inside the trans were really so off that it was rattling, I doubt you would be shifting good. Inside the trans, things are rotating and meshing together. A rattle/loose part in there I would think would make for trouble shifting.

My thoughts exactly. And there's really no way to tell the difference between a TOB rattle and a clutch hub rattle. They both act exactly the same. Stock clutch hubs are known to rattle, ask RayP.



Now this is what I was told by a friend but he replaced the TOB and it still did it. Later he pulled it out and put a liberal amount of grease on it and it went away. I assume it’s true but it might not be your problem or mine. Did you use an OEM TOB?

Did he pull it out to replace the clutch the second time? Or just to lube the TOB? Did he lube it the first time?

[green-lantern]

Did he pull it out to replace the clutch the second time? Or just to lube the TOB? Did he lube it the first time?

From what I understand he pulled the trans to inspect the clutch TOB ect. then lubed the shit out of the TOB and put it back together. I can call him, I haven't talked to him in a while anyway.