View Full Version : Future APR aluminum wing
i3igpete
07-08-2011, 12:03 PM
Upcoming dual element APR wing looks to more than double the downforce of the current GTC300 wing. simply incredible, will be great for competitive autocrossers!
1000+lbs of downforce at 120mph, the current GTC300 can only generate 450lb at that speed.
http://www.amb-aero.com/files/APR004_public.pdf
if this really gets made, they will likely need to make it out of steel to not crumble under it's own downforce. no trunk mounting for this thing!
DocWalt
07-08-2011, 12:21 PM
Just read through the linked document... That wing looks pretty badass.
Do you have a comparison handy to compare drag:downforce levels to a GTC300 wing?
i3igpete
07-08-2011, 12:45 PM
MPH:downforce:drag (all in lbs force)
GTC-300 numbers at 12* angle of attack
80 : 203 : 30
100 : 318 : 47
120 : 460 : 69
So the GTC 300 falls somewhere around 15 degree flap angle for this new wing.
GTC-500 numbers at 10* angle of attack
80 : 149 : 27
100 : 231 : 44
120 : 345 : 63
So the GTC 500 is nearly equal to this new wing with a 10 degree flap angle
Nationalmilkman
07-08-2011, 01:25 PM
I was looking into a few wings with the similar design just last week. You would have to mount this like the Gran Touring car, to the chassis through the bumper or something like that. That's some massive down force, you should be able to throw in into a hard turn and stick it without a second thought!
why not trunk mounting? at least on the 3/s hatch, the mounts should be pretty stiff--assuming it's mounted in the stock location. the lip that the stock wing mounts on is immediately adjacent to a structural support; and actually sits atop the sides when the hatch is closed.
i can understand if you had a conventional trunk, gutted, and there was no support underneath (in which case you'd have to fabricate some kind of brace from the trunk to the floor). i just don't see that problem with the 3/s.
Nationalmilkman
07-08-2011, 01:31 PM
Even the stock mount holes are on the lip/edge of the hatch and 1000lbs of down force can't be held by that little sheet metal.
well i doubt you'd want to run it there anyway. technically, the best place to apply downforce is centerline over the wheels. in the case of the 3/s, that means immediately aft of the 3kgt sails.
since that's logistically a nightmare, the hatch remains a good alternative. what this translates into is a need to adjust front downforce accordingly to compensate for the rear wheels acting like a fulcrum for the rear aerofoil.
if 1000lbs of downforce is too great for the stock location, one could either attempt to brace that location to the sides of the hatch (and add additional bracing under each side)...or one could mount the aerofoil closer to the center of the hatch & add bracing directly beneath the hatch, pressing against the floor of the hatch.
i3igpete
07-08-2011, 02:10 PM
if 1000lbs of downforce is too great for the stock location, one could either attempt to brace that location to the sides of the hatch (and add additional bracing under each side)...or one could mount the aerofoil closer to the center of the hatch & add bracing directly beneath the hatch, pressing against the floor of the hatch.
You know those those ribbed support pads on the sides of trunk that support the hatch, and those screw height adjusters? those need to be stiffened otherwise you will damage the latching mechanism. i may already have something in the works for that.
that's assuming the sheetmetal on the edge of the hatch doesn't bend. It's already pretty strong because it's double thickness, but I dont know if it's 1000 lbs strong.
I'd just use the stock side supports to make it look normal, with another brace that comes up from under the rear toe hooks to bolster it.
now I just want them to make me one with 3 and 4 elements :)
wonder how their research went with more elements, according to that doc they we're allowed total control over the amount of elements....so why not more?
and they say budget.....what's budget to them :p?
i3igpete
07-08-2011, 09:20 PM
i'm actually passing PM's back and forth with the guy. my guess is that because of how well they got the 2 element wing to work, nobody is gonna need THAT much downforce.
i3igpete
07-08-2011, 09:54 PM
http://www.creators.com/comics/40/78280_image.gif
well WE need it that big :p we have no end of power and no end of weight on the front end :p
but then if you don't have that much front grip keeping the rear down won't get you anywhere sooooo mleh.
install one on the hood over the front wheels? :suspect:
install one on the roof of the car? :suspect:
Dunno, Guess I'll see what other people come up with...
and 11" wide wheels :p
Broomfield Racing
07-09-2011, 03:12 PM
You know those those ribbed support pads on the sides of trunk that support the hatch, and those screw height adjusters? those need to be stiffened otherwise you will damage the latching mechanism. i may already have something in the works for that.
that's assuming the sheetmetal on the edge of the hatch doesn't bend. It's already pretty strong because it's double thickness, but I dont know if it's 1000 lbs strong.
Done and done...they look like they are going to work perfectly.
does that mean that carbon fibre hatches are going to be en-vogue now?
J. Fast
07-09-2011, 11:36 PM
does that mean that carbon fibre hatches are going to be en-vogue now?
Nothing wrong with that for sure! You certainly want to lighten the rear up when you have to beef up the rear and add an additional custom upper rear crossmember for the rear wing load transfer.
If you've ever stripped or gutted a 3/S before... (when I say gutted I mean remove all the seam sealer and tac-welds and removing all 84 high tensile steel and galvanized main body panels) you would know there's two sidemembers that run the length of the car from behind the passenger seat floor assembly all the way to the rear panel. They are laterally braced and welded to the front floor, intermediate transition, rear floor, rear upper and lower suspension crossmember, and the rear panel. Since they run from just behind the drivers and pasengers seats and extend all the way to the rear panel of the vehicle you can build a crossmember. It doesn't have to be exotic or anything, it could look similar to the one that ties and reinforces the rear suspension towers. Place it anywhere in the rear of the vehicle and tie the drivers and passenger side members together. Build uprights with mounting plates on them to accept the wing baseplate, tap and thread a few high strength carrier bolts, and you're golden.
DocWalt
07-10-2011, 03:08 AM
MPH:downforce:drag (all in lbs force)
GTC-300 numbers at 12* angle of attack
80 : 203 : 30
100 : 318 : 47
120 : 460 : 69
So the GTC 300 falls somewhere around 15 degree flap angle for this new wing.
GTC-500 numbers at 10* angle of attack
80 : 149 : 27
100 : 231 : 44
120 : 345 : 63
So the GTC 500 is nearly equal to this new wing with a 10 degree flap angle
Thanks Pete! Don't have time at work to look stuff up anymore :(
http://3000gt.com.au/car/Misc/Wing/aprtwin/apr2element%20(1).jpg
http://3000gt.com.au/car/Misc/Wing/aprtwin/apr2element%20(2).JPG
http://3000gt.com.au/car/Misc/Wing/aprtwin/apr2element%20(4).jpg
This will be interesting :p
Erron Spalsbury
12-26-2011, 11:44 AM
Drew's a badass. (Andrew Brilliant)
When he speaks, I listen.
Drew's a badass. (Andrew Brilliant)
When he speaks, I listen.
too bad i couldn't get any of the owners on this forum to actually buy into having andrew design and build us a limited-run production of vented hoods. people would rather bitch about having to put up with cianci's bullshit, rather than simply put their money where their mouth is, and buy a proven product from a guy with an unquestionable record.
quite frankly, this platform IS in the shitter because no one wants to think outside the box. when i posted a feeler for a group-buy on a hood from andrew, all i got was a lot of hot-air and naysaying...mainly from idiots who had it in their minds that (for whatever godforsaken reason) scoote-2 style hood vents are satanic, and that gt-300 hood vents are godly. never mind the benchmarks that prove the scoote 2 vents (even the shitty stock aerokits.net vents) disperse heat WAY, WAY better. never mind that andrew's design has more venting and IMPROVED DOWNFORCE. never mind that the price was very reasonable. 3/s owners would rather pitch a fit about stuff not being available, and then shit in the face of anyone who brings a genuine offer to the table.
and yes, for the record, if i'd had enough $$$, i'd have bought a fucking run of 10 hoods myself....just so i could have run ONE. and then the shitstains who want one later get to pay me 2-3x the cost.
/rant
CoopKill
12-26-2011, 03:47 PM
Tis what happens when a platform becomes affordable enough for the young/lower income buyer to get involved. The money overhead for advancement leaves the platform for less expensive china copies.
I have done this myself with my exhaust. Thanks to those bull headed enough that love the platform to continue coming up with things here and there...
IPD is an angry man :p
we do need to do more about the front lift though :D for a start measuring it would be good.
Erron Spalsbury
12-27-2011, 11:09 AM
:D
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/222/cflipspoiler.jpg
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2326/cflipspoiler2close.jpg
Rakuny
01-15-2012, 12:56 PM
http://3000gt.com.au/car/Misc/Wing/aprtwin/apr2element%20(1).jpg
http://3000gt.com.au/car/Misc/Wing/aprtwin/apr2element%20(2).JPG
http://3000gt.com.au/car/Misc/Wing/aprtwin/apr2element%20(4).jpg
This will be interesting :p
Updates on this?
the freight is looking like it will be $600 on top of the wing to bring it to AU, I've told the guy that I got a quote from UPS AU that it would be around 300-400 USD according to their system...so if he can't do it for $550 or under freight wise the deal is off.
lawdogg
01-16-2012, 12:16 AM
Check out p.35 for a mention of two element wings, good background!
http://www.scn.rain.com/~neighorn/PDF/racecar.pdf
mmmm going to give that a goooooood read tonight :)
in other news, the Seller has been able to come through, so I should have the wing in 2 weeks, then it's going to be interesting to see what the hell I can do with it...
in that article above they say that the mounting points can cause serious interruptions to the wing flow :| may look at making my own supports.
i3igpete
01-17-2012, 05:16 PM
interesting developments :scratchchin:
http://3000gt.com.au/car/Misc/Wing/aprarrived%20(1).JPG
http://3000gt.com.au/car/Misc/Wing/aprarrived%20(2).JPG
had to send the mounts separately, could be a few more days to a few weeks :|, may have to make end plates out of rounded plastic so they don't post a danger to pedestrians, not sure exactly how I'm going to re-enforce the hatch.
Top Element
http://3000gt.com.au/car/Misc/Wing/Aprar%20(1).JPG
Bottom element
http://3000gt.com.au/car/Misc/Wing/Aprar%20(2).JPG
roughly how they fit (bottom element is the wrong way round but I cbf)
http://3000gt.com.au/car/Misc/Wing/Aprar%20(5).JPG
mounting
http://3000gt.com.au/car/Misc/Wing/Aprar%20(4).JPG
http://3000gt.com.au/car/Misc/Wing/Aprar%20(3).JPG
probably won't make any more progress for a few more weeks, need to talk to an engineer about legally getting it on the car, also need to know where the rest of the mounts will have it sitting on the boot and then see if I can strengthen it enough to not rip the boot lid off.
anyonebutme
01-30-2012, 02:57 PM
nice body hair
Know how I know you're ghey?
Erron Spalsbury
01-30-2012, 03:12 PM
That's a GREAT looking wing! (or wings)
CoopKill
01-30-2012, 05:45 PM
Know how I know you're ghey?
:lmao: :highfive:
Rakuny
02-04-2012, 11:46 AM
I've been in contact with the company that made that and got a quote for one
Quote :
- (1) Large 55" x 7.5" silver CF wing element. $ 165
(1) Top 55" x 5.5" silver CF wing element. $ 148
- SS hardware kit.
- Custom span strut wing mounting to 43" center to center
- Under wing T brackets.
- Gurney flap instructions and wing set -up info included.
- Endplates $ 100
- 9" wing struts $ 170
- (4) Trunk mounts. $ 48
- Braces for CF wings $ 40
$ 671
shipping $ 55
$ 726 total
I paid today so I should have mine in 2-3 weeks.
Company is Ciro design racing in California
The "struts" on the one in the first picture are kind of angled forward because it was made for an RX-8 running in a class with "wing cannot overhang bumper" requirements.
The 9" tall struts will place the top of the spoiler at 15.25"
B-Man
02-04-2012, 12:59 PM
I've been in contact with the company that made that and got a quote for one
Quote :
- (1) Large 55" x 7.5" silver CF wing element. $ 165
(1) Top 55" x 5.5" silver CF wing element. $ 148
- SS hardware kit.
- Custom span strut wing mounting to 43" center to center
- Under wing T brackets.
- Gurney flap instructions and wing set -up info included.
- Endplates $ 100
- 9" wing struts $ 170
- (4) Trunk mounts. $ 48
- Braces for CF wings $ 40
$ 671
shipping $ 55
$ 726 total
I paid today so I should have mine in 2-3 weeks.
Company is Ciro design racing in California
The "struts" on the one in the first picture are kind of angled forward because it was made for an RX-8 with "wing cannot overhang bumper" requirements.
The 9" tall struts will place the top of the spoiler at 15.25"
No shit!? You're getting a wing, too?
Rakuny
02-04-2012, 04:42 PM
No shit!? You're getting a wing, too?
Yah :biggrin:
Figured I'd post up my quote in case anyone else was interested in one like this. I talked to the guy quite a bit on the phone as well as e-mailing back and forth. Very nice guy, good service.
Edit: did you mean too as in your getting one and I'm getting one too, or did you mean on top of the coilovers, etc. ?
BTW, I have a love hate relationship with your signature... sometimes I watch it 10 times in a row... wish I could see the rest.
B-Man
02-04-2012, 06:47 PM
I meant too, as with the coilovers.
I'll be curious to see if you can feel a difference and how you plan on mounting it. If Pete's right, hatch mounting could be a no-no.
Rakuny
02-04-2012, 10:50 PM
I meant too, as with the coilovers.
I'll be curious to see if you can feel a difference and how you plan on mounting it. If Pete's right, hatch mounting could be a no-no.
Yah, we'll see how the mounting goes.. I have a couple ideas but don't want to say too much until I try to implement them. I'm gonna make a rear diffuser and a splitter to go with the wing. As we've discussed before we can switch cars sometime, you can decide for yourself then :p
B-Man
02-05-2012, 07:48 AM
I won't have a before feeling of your car, and now so much is going to be different, I won't know what's making a difference.
Rakuny
02-05-2012, 01:19 PM
I guess I didn't think about that.. when we originally discussed it I hadn't fully decided on all that I was going to do so I didn't disclose any extra information other than the coilovers.
B-Man
02-05-2012, 01:32 PM
If you manage to have all that stuff together this summer, you'll definitely have a better performing car than mine.
What are you doing about power? Just keeping it stock still?
EDIT: actually don't answer that here, I don't want to knock this thread that far off track.
Rakuny
02-07-2012, 07:56 PM
To get this thread back on track a little bit..
I got an e-mail back from Rick
"Hi Mark,
Got your payment. Wing system is being fabricated. The endplates may not ship for a week or so, since they will be included in a larger order to be made. My guess is the wing elements could arrive in about a week.
Thanks,
Rick"
Sounds like they always ship the wing elements separate of everything else. Michael did you receive your other stuff yet?
Anyone willing to post more details about the latch mechanism strengthening?
nothing on mine...it's likely to be a 6 month affair..
presently looking at buying a spare rear hatch so I can cut it up to fit some pitch controlling actuators.
Rakuny
02-07-2012, 09:18 PM
6 months?!:eek4:
Why so long?
Car is starting to feel slow....so I'm going full steam ahead on the 4L motor install (bitchin)
Also, please post what CFD data they have (or anything really, I got nothing with mine)
Rakuny
02-08-2012, 09:08 PM
I will post up whatever I get.. I don't think that it will come with CFD data. When I was looking at their website I believe this wing to be a variant of the "A" package. The "F" package specifically says CFD data available (base price starts out at $400 more) whereas the "A" package just says "set-up recommendations and Gurney flap info."
i3igpete
05-02-2012, 01:51 AM
i'm starting to see the prototype wing in different places now... and from what i'm reading, their park bench aluminum wings from the 90s were actually very well designed. it was just ahead of their time with the anti-rice sentiment that they killed them off. now they've come full circle since people are tracking their cars more often now.
note the buttload of mounting holes on the brackets. talk about dialing in the downforce exactly!
http://949racing.com/server/crusher/P1030669_B.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7090/6938805118_f58fcdcf4f_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7051/6938804904_789630b115_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7050/6938804680_544bb1c85a_b.jpg
yeah love the big fuckoff wing!
in before the superbird wing is reincarnated.
i3igpete
06-04-2012, 11:47 PM
Looks like ciro design went ahead with their own design without waiting for APR to officially release it. better yet, they have the 3000gt as an mount application.
Ciro Design Racing Wing Packages and Parts (http://www.cirodesignracing.com/CiroDesignRacing/WING.html)
http://i.imgur.com/82jRm.jpg
Nationalmilkman
06-05-2012, 08:14 AM
I really like that wing, but those end plates are huge! I'm guessing they help in the side to side stability of the car as a whole, but do they really need to be that big?
anyonebutme
06-05-2012, 11:12 AM
I really like that wing, but those end plates are huge! I'm guessing they help in the side to side stability of the car as a whole, but do they really need to be that big?
stability is not what they are for. the more aggressive the wing, the larger the vorticies it will produce off the tips, and without large enough end plates the vorticies will spill over, reducing the effective span of the wing and increasing drag. In those pics those are a bit oversized for a single plane with minimal optimization, but I'm betting they were optimized for the dual element design as a base in which case the size is about right.
i3igpete
06-05-2012, 07:15 PM
also keep in mind with the double element wings, the end plates are structural. they have to transfer the load from the top element to the bottom element.
but yeah as chris said: when it comes to wing tip vortices, bigger enplate is always better.
I must get around to mounting mine at some point
what's the cord length they are quoting?
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.