I want to talk GTOs and MY car

[j2k4]

I didn't want to muck up 2fnloud's thread, and I've only (and rather stupidly) just realized I'm trying to reproduce an export/GTO-type situation under-the-hood.

1g TT and 13Gs, with only an FPR on a hot-wired pump.

There will be a catless (Stillen) DP, stock cat-back.

The export versions didn't have any fuel-delivery/injector mods at all, did they?

[vr3.9]

Ok, let's talk. GTO's came with 9b's just like ours. However, in europe the 13g was offered as a dealer add on. Pretty sure no other changes were made to the car but the turbos.

[AdamVR4]

13G's, unless you've had them for years or got them for free... What's the point?

[j2k4]

Ok, let's talk. GTO's came with 9b's just like ours. However, in europe the 13g was offered as a dealer add on. Pretty sure no other changes were made to the car but the turbos.

Okay, that's what I was aiming for, Mike - in the reading I've done, I was never able to definitively nail down the status of the 13g as an add-on.

So, then; if the only component of the option was the turbos, how did driveability compare to the 9bs?

How did fuel delivery short-comings present, and to what degree?

Adding the hot-wire and FPR (probably a pump as well) will be a tiny plus, and logging will help me with that.


13G's, unless you've had them for years or got them for free... What's the point?

Don't say that to me unless you've got a shelf full of mint spares to share with me Adam- I just spent a (too-large) chunk getting mine re-done - where were you?:(

[vr3.9]

Stock fuel would have no problem supporting 13g's on stock boost.

edit: and yes Adam that was harsh. :p

[j2k4]

I would imagine having the FPR to play with might render a bit more driveability/power, eh, Mike?

I'll have the hot-wire in place before the FPR, probably, and certainly the pump.

Next question, then:

Once all that is done, can I get near a true 12 lbs of boost with an MBC or EBC and gauge before I need any sort of piggyback?

[Frostedbutts]

I just recently helped a friend up the boost on his 93 VR4. He was only running 9bs, but we were able to safely run about 13 PSI. I'm assuming there wouldn't be much of a difference between the two turbos, so you're probably safe with just a boost controller and stock injectors.

[GTOJOE]

All GTOs came with 9b's however 13G and 11b [very rare] were an option. No injector or ecu changes were made. 13G was reported to be standard on Euro models. But I sort of have to agree with Adam. Unless you have them already or are getting them very cheap your better off going for 15G or 19T as the price is not much different. Maybe send your 9bs to Midwest Turbo and get them upgraded for a very reasonable price.

[GTOJOE]

I would imagine having the FPR to play with might render a bit more driveability/power, eh, Mike?

I'll have the hot-wire in place before the FPR, probably, and certainly the pump.

Next question, then:

Once all that is done, can I get near a true 12 lbs of boost with an MBC or EBC and gauge before I need any sort of piggyback?

With my GTO and 9b's I am maxed out at 12lbs [injectors are the limiting factor] [with full stand alone computer]. Maybe playing with the fuel pressure might yeild you a little more.

[vr3.9]

I would imagine having the FPR to play with might render a bit more driveability/power, eh, Mike?

I'll have the hot-wire in place before the FPR, probably, and certainly the pump.

Next question, then:

Once all that is done, can I get near a true 12 lbs of boost with an MBC or EBC and gauge before I need any sort of piggyback?

First: do you have a data logger? turning up fuel pressure will only be of value as long as the ECU can compensate for it. You will need to be able to watch your fuel trims. As they approach 80 it has pulled all the fuel it can and you will be running too rich if you turn up the fuel pressure.

I would replace the stock fuel pump with a Walbro. Hot wire if you want. Don't change the fuel pressure from 44.5. If you can log knock and have a real boost gauge I would then add a mbc. You should be able to run 15psi. Without cats and a good air filter you should be over 300 awhp and have a really enjoyable car.


13g setup:

no cats.
FPIK K&N intatake or similar
Real boost gauge
Data logger so you know when you knock and have reached your max
MBC set to around 15psi.
Down pipe, this should get you around 300 - 350awhp.

SAFC or similar would let you tune to a better afr and get more power.
450 - 550 cc injectors plus MAFT would let it breath and go past the limitations of stock MAF if you want more than 400awhp.
better Intercoolers would be helpful at this point.

[j2k4]

All GTOs came with 9b's however 13G and 11b [very rare] were an option. No injector or ecu changes were made. 13G was reported to be standard on Euro models. But I sort of have to agree with Adam. Unless you have them already or are getting them very cheap your better off going for 15G or 19T as the price is not much different. Maybe send your 9bs to Midwest Turbo and get them upgraded for a very reasonable price.

The 9Bs will be re-fitted, probably to 15Gs.


First: do you have a data logger? turning up fuel pressure will only be of value as long as the ECU can compensate for it. You will need to be able to watch your fuel trims. As they approach 80 it has pulled all the fuel it can and you will be running too rich if you turn up the fuel pressure.

I would replace the stock fuel pump with a Walbro. Hot wire if you want. Don't change the fuel pressure from 44.5. If you can log knock and have a real boost gauge I would then add a mbc. You should be able to run 15psi. Without cats and a good air filter you should be over 300 awhp and have a really enjoyable car.


13g setup:

no cats.
FPIK K&N intatake or similar
Real boost gauge
Data logger so you know when you knock and have reached your max
MBC set to around 15psi.
Down pipe, this should get you around 300 - 350awhp.

SAFC or similar would let you tune to a better afr and get more power.
450 - 550 cc injectors plus MAFT would let it breath and go past the limitations of stock MAF if you want more than 400awhp.
better Intercoolers would be helpful at this point.

I have the logger, and I will be using it.

All of your pre-SAFC recommendations will be in place (I forgot to mention I have the FPIK, have to get the boost gauge) - the only question is whether I get a Walbro, Aeromotive, or maybe the new Deatschwerks pump.:)

[2fnloud]

I would opt for that quietest pump. in your situation, I would get your snails upgraded to 15G's, from what I have learned the 15'g can bring a grin to your face and still be a reliable DD.

My car came with the 13G's, yes I know that you know. ;) I started my thread to see what their potential could be, because if they could it wouldn't make sense to change them.

I learned that in the end I will want more then what the 13G can produce, so I will buy parts that will benefit the 13G's or DR650's. Chances are I will focus on braking and beefing up my 6sp tranny so I can have a SLIGHT piece of mind when launching.

[Alan92RTTT]

FYI, 13g's work fine on stock fuel/boost.

NO noticable turbo lag was introduced(cats were cleaned when the turbos were upgraded) boost held much better to redline. Data log showed no issues when running stock fuel.

[AdamVR4]

I mean, if you've got no interest whatsoever in adding larger injectors, 13G's aren't a bad choice...

As long as you're logging knock and you don't feel any hesitation (through your butt), I wouldn't hesitate to turn the boost up 1 psi at a time to 14-15, particularly if you've got a hotwired walbro. I was able to run 15 psi without knock on a stock fuel system with 16G's (+ hotwired walbro). Tune for between 0 and up to 5 "counts" of knock. 0 should be attainable.

[j2k4]

FYI, 13g's work fine on stock fuel/boost.

NO noticable turbo lag was introduced(cats were cleaned when the turbos were upgraded) boost held much better to redline. Data log showed no issues when running stock fuel.

That's what I want to hear, Alan, thanks!

Cats will be gutted or 'disappeared'.



I would opt for that quietest pump. in your situation, I would get your snails upgraded to 15G's, from what I have learned the 15'g can bring a grin to your face and still be a reliable DD.

My car came with the 13G's, yes I know that you know. ;) I started my thread to see what their potential could be, because if they could it wouldn't make sense to change them.

I learned that in the end I will want more then what the 13G can produce, so I will buy parts that will benefit the 13G's or DR650's. Chances are I will focus on braking and beefing up my 6sp tranny so I can have a SLIGHT piece of mind when launching.

I believe we're thinking in parallel, Steve.

I will end up having the 9Bs redone (probably to 15Gs), but I would hesitate to strap them on my 1G, 2-bolt, cast-crank, stock (original!) clutch car.

I want to pick up a VR4 at some point, and I'll make sure it's a 4-bolt, etc. car.

THEN I'll go nuts.

[j2k4]

I mean, if you've got no interest whatsoever in adding larger injectors, 13G's aren't a bad choice...

As long as you're logging knock and you don't feel any hesitation (through your butt), I wouldn't hesitate to turn the boost up 1 psi at a time to 14-15, particularly if you've got a hotwired walbro. I was able to run 15 psi without knock on a stock fuel system with 16G's (+ hotwired walbro). Tune for between 0 and up to 5 "counts" of knock. 0 should be attainable.

More of what I'm looking to hear - thanks, Adam.

The hot-wire sounds like it clears up a ton of potential problems.

[vr3.9]

I believe we're thinking in parallel, Steve.

I will end up having the 9Bs redone (probably to 15Gs), but I would hesitate to strap them on my 1G, 2-bolt, cast-crank, stock (original!) clutch car.

I want to pick up a VR4 at some point, and I'll make sure it's a 4-bolt, etc. car.

THEN I'll go nuts.

If I was going to upgrade a set of 9b's I would go with 19t's. Why go half way?

[Jimvr4]

Here some old stuff to check out on the Euro 13G car, especially the 1998 dyno session page and the engine troubles page. Team3S is no longer around but Roger keeps these old pages on his server.

RTEC's Mitsubishi 3000GT (http://www.rtec.ch/3000gt.html)

[j2k4]

If I was going to upgrade a set of 9b's I would go with 19t's. Why go half way?

Good point.

I always thought, though, if I got that far, it'd have to be DR750s or bust.

[j2k4]

Here some old stuff to check out on the Euro 13G car, especially the 1998 dyno session page and the engine troubles page. Team3S is no longer around but Roger keeps these old pages on his server.

RTEC's Mitsubishi 3000GT (http://www.rtec.ch/3000gt.html)

Excellent!

Thanks, Jim!:)

[vr3.9]

Good point.

I always thought, though, if I got that far, it'd have to be DR750s or bust.

I would check with Markoverclock and see what the cost difference is to covert to 19T vs 15G. I wouldn't think it would be that much difference in price, but definitely different in performance.

[j2k4]

I would check with Markoverclock and see what the cost difference is to covert to 19T vs 15G. I wouldn't think it would be that much difference in price, but definitely different in performance.

Oh, it's definitely affordable by comparison, Mike - only $300 more from MTC.

Deal is, either of those would have to wait for a better specimen than my car - but, as you say, the supporting mods necessary for one will suit the other, so, why not go big, eh?

[AudibleSilence]

I just recently helped a friend up the boost on his 93 VR4. He was only running 9bs, but we were able to safely run about 13 PSI. I'm assuming there wouldn't be much of a difference between the two turbos, so you're probably safe with just a boost controller and stock injectors.

Why would you think that running 9b's at 13psi on stock fuel would be a problem?

[2fnloud]

Oh, it's definitely affordable by comparison, Mike - only $300 more from MTC.

Deal is, either of those would have to wait for a better specimen than my car - but, as you say, the supporting mods necessary for one will suit the other, so, why not go big, eh?

Why worry about your car not being worthy? didn't Ninja (Chris) get up to like 800HP before the 2-bolt was showing its weaknesses?

[j2k4]

Why worry about your car not being worthy? didn't Ninja (Chris) get up to like 800HP before the 2-bolt was showing its weaknesses?

Chris is nuts, plus he likes to show off.

No, seriously, I think of his approach in that instance as more of an exercise to point up what is possible, in lieu of what is practical.

Okay, he did it on the dyno - did he then commence to DD it for several years?

[AudibleSilence]

Yea...the 2 bolt is plenty strong..the crank being forged should be the bigger concern. This thread is like going into a 3s time warp where common things like how much boost you can run on stock fuel, the 13g option, and the strength of the 2 bolt vs. 4 bolt are not yet discovered.

Many of the records set and broken by this platform were done on a 2 bolt engine..just saying.

[j2k4]

Yea...the 2 bolt is plenty strong..the crank being forged should be the bigger concern. This thread is like going into a 3s time warp where common things like how much boost you can run on stock fuel, the 13g option, and the strength of the 2 bolt vs. 4 bolt are not yet discovered.

Many of the records set and broken by this platform were done on a 2 bolt engine..just saying.

I hear you, Mike.

I thought the same thing when I started going down this track, but I've read, and read, and read, here and the other place, without finding it simply stated that 13Gs could be simply bolted on and driven.

As to the rest, enjoy the nostalgia trip - it's funny, you know - I'm probably twice your age, but when it comes to the cars, you are positively ancient.

Oh, and as to the performance 'envelope' you all have created, thanks much.

[IPD]

i'm with mike & adam. 13g's aren't an upgrade turbo. 13t's are the minimum "upgrade", imho. dr500's are more of an upgrade than 13g's--and they are essentually full of suck (in comparison to the options we currently have available).

the 2-bolt is a great block, and you're not going to kill it by running td04's--even on e85. it's the 700+whp range where it starts to get dicey without the 3sx bolt kit; and i don't know of anyone reliably hitting those numbers on ANY 3.0L with td04's.

the cast crank is the achilles heel. no one really knows how much it can hold up to--and it's highly probable that each one is somewhat difference in tolerance. the only reason i'm upgrading to a stroker is because of my cast crank. if my motor had a forged crank, i wouldn't think twice about running 16g's to the wall on pump gas.

p.s.
i've heard of people running 14-15psi on 9b's. it really depends on how well you can cool your intake charge...more than it has to do with fuel consumption. if you've got a datalogger, wideband, AM boost gauge, and MBC, you should be able to coax your car in that direction without having to mess with fuel very much (if at all). you can always swap in a better pump (hotwire or no) and add a fuel controller if it's giving you fits. i really do think that the biggest limitation is heatsoaked OEM smics.

[j2k4]

i'm with mike & adam. 13g's aren't an upgrade turbo. 13t's are the minimum "upgrade", imho. dr500's are more of an upgrade than 13g's--and they are essentually full of suck (in comparison to the options we currently have available).

the 2-bolt is a great block, and you're not going to kill it by running td04's--even on e85. it's the 700+whp range where it starts to get dicey without the 3sx bolt kit; and i don't know of anyone reliably hitting those numbers on ANY 3.0L with td04's.

the cast crank is the achilles heel. no one really knows how much it can hold up to--and it's highly probable that each one is somewhat difference in tolerance. the only reason i'm upgrading to a stroker is because of my cast crank. if my motor had a forged crank, i wouldn't think twice about running 16g's to the wall on pump gas.

p.s.
i've heard of people running 14-15psi on 9b's. it really depends on how well you can cool your intake charge...more than it has to do with fuel consumption. if you've got a datalogger, wideband, AM boost gauge, and MBC, you should be able to coax your car in that direction without having to mess with fuel very much (if at all). you can always swap in a better pump (hotwire or no) and add a fuel controller if it's giving you fits. i really do think that the biggest limitation is heatsoaked OEM smics.


Okay.

2-bolt or not, I still have a cast crank, right?

So - what you all are saying is that a step up from about 230-240 AWHP to - with proper supporting mods - potentially 350-400AWHP, is not worth it.

Are all of you driving 500-700 AWHP monsters?

It Matt comes up with another TD04 snail, one that puts the DR750s in the shade by 100 HP or so, will the DR750s be on the shelf next to my 13Gs?

I sure hope so. :)

[Frostedbutts]

Why would you think that running 9b's at 13psi on stock fuel would be a problem?

I don't recall ever saying that in that post. Read it again.

[IPD]

no. what i am saying is that 350-400awhp is NOT easy to do on 13g's. if you want 350-400awhp, 13t's, 15g's or 19t's are all much better options. can it be done with 13g's? probably. after all, look how far austin got with his 9b's. it's not an easy thing to do though.

my tuning mantra has always been overbuild:undertune. you don't have to stick with that idea; but consider what it means when you're tuned to 95% system capacity at any point. how long will that stuff last? how catastrophic is failure of any one component?

[AdamVR4]

no. what i am saying is that 350-400awhp is NOT easy to do on 13g's. if you want 350-400awhp, 13t's, 15g's or 19t's are all much better options. can it be done with 13g's? probably. after all, look how far austin got with his 9b's. it's not an easy thing to do though.

my tuning mantra has always been overbuild:undertune. you don't have to stick with that idea; but consider what it means when you're tuned to 95% system capacity at any point. how long will that stuff last? how catastrophic is failure of any one component?

The only 13G car I ever played with was FastOldGuy's... Around the same time I got to fiddle with CANENAC's Spyder. These were both records at the time but have each since been broken (granted it took a lot longer for the 13T record to be broken):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/adamvr4/13Gv13T.jpg

350-400 AWHP is exactly what you should expect from 13G's.

Having a cast crank does throw a wrench in my advice. I tend to forget that those things exist. 13G's and 400 AWHP are not a bad option for you.





I still have a cast crank, right?

So - what you all are saying is that a step up from about 230-240 AWHP to - with proper supporting mods - potentially 350-400AWHP, is not worth it.

Are all of you driving 500-700 AWHP monsters?


What I was saying is that 13G's won't give you much room to grow, and for the same price, you can have the potential for another ~100 AWHP with basically no additional lag (see dyno comparison above).

And to that final question, yes :)

[AudibleSilence]

Those 13g numbers were on race gas, what's the record on pump?

[IPD]

Those 13g numbers were on race gas, what's the record on pump?

:smartie:

those numbers are right on the bleeding edge of what you can get from 13g's. for pure pump-gas, i don't even know if 400 is achievable.

[AdamVR4]

I just went back through this thread, convinced I was losing my mind... Where did this pump gas constraint come from?

Anyway... Shooting from the hip, 17 psi and 350+ AWHP should be no problem on pump gas...

And what do ya know...

Another Texan: edgavi hit 392awhp@16.5psi on 93 octane with 13G's
3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f13/dyno-day-me-232986/)

SkortchGT hit 364 @ 16 psi
13g Pump Gas AWHP & 1/4 Record?? (No Juice) - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f116/13g-pump-gas-awhp-1-4-record-no-juice-372434/)

[j2k4]

The only 13G car I ever played with was FastOldGuy's... Around the same time I got to fiddle with CANENAC's Spyder. These were both records at the time but have each since been broken (granted it took a lot longer for the 13T record to be broken):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/adamvr4/13Gv13T.jpg

350-400 AWHP is exactly what you should expect from 13G's.

Having a cast crank does throw a wrench in my advice. I tend to forget that those things exist. 13G's and 400 AWHP are not a bad option for you.






What I was saying is that 13G's won't give you much room to grow, and for the same price, you can have the potential for another ~100 AWHP with basically no additional lag (see dyno comparison above).

And to that final question, yes :)

And I'm saying that the growth you're talking about will have to wait for a suitable mill, that's all.

I think pushing a 13G car will be a decent opportunity to learn.

[vr3.9]

And I'm saying that the growth you're talking about will have to wait for a suitable mill, that's all.

I think pushing a 13G car will be a decent opportunity to learn.

You build that 13G car correctly and it will be well worth it. First off when ever you get more power it's always fun and you always get used to it and need more. Why go straight to 600?
Second. It will be faster and more fun than many much more expensive bigger builds. There are so many people with a collection of big parts and no tune or something that doesn't work and they never get to drive it. I recommend a read of Russian VR4's thread on building high hp cars. Seems they bring the most joy around 400awhp. You drive it enjoy and don't worry about it. For me there is more to this game than just making big dyno #'s and fast ET's. For many of us it's about having a car you get in, trust, drive and enjoy. When did 350-400awhp become slow anyway. lol In fact I was planning on going DR750's or similar or maybe 16g's on my green car. After DD'ing mine in this 106+ degree heat, I've decided it's getting my dsm 13g's and DSM Sidemounts. FMIC just blocks the radiator a bit too much. Oh yea and learning and doing it yourself without relying on someone else...... priceless!

[IPD]

400whp became slow when the c6z debuted. either that, or when the viper hit 600hp. either way, 400whp hasn't been quite the same since.

granted, it's still quite potent--but it's not what it once was.

[AudibleSilence]

I just went back through this thread, convinced I was losing my mind... Where did this pump gas constraint come from?

Anyway... Shooting from the hip, 17 psi and 350+ AWHP should be no problem on pump gas...

And what do ya know...

Another Texan: edgavi hit 392awhp@16.5psi on 93 octane with 13G's
3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f13/dyno-day-me-232986/)

SkortchGT hit 364 @ 16 psi
13g Pump Gas AWHP & 1/4 Record?? (No Juice) - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f116/13g-pump-gas-awhp-1-4-record-no-juice-372434/)

-shrug- Still a waste of money vs. 15gs but people are gonna do what they want.

[AudibleSilence]

When did 350-400awhp become slow anyway. lol In fact I was planning on going DR750's or similar or maybe 16g's on my green car. After DD'ing mine in this 106+ degree heat, I've decided it's getting my dsm 13g's and DSM Sidemounts. FMIC just blocks the radiator a bit too much. Oh yea and learning and doing it yourself without relying on someone else...... priceless!

It became slow when other cars started coming out with that stock. I think the dsm sidemounts are going to be a step back for you personally..

[bluzvr4]

has anyone put supra side mounts on a vr4 yet? i have one for my dsm im building and wondered y noone has done it on a vr4 (if they havent and i just dont know it)

[vr3.9]

It became slow when other cars started coming out with that stock. I think the dsm sidemounts are going to be a step back for you personally..
Just an option if I find the stockers to be a problem and I can find a set real cheap. Oh and just to make it clear I'm talking about my 93 green one that's completely stock except for a downpipe. Oh and there really aren't that many cars putting down 350-400 to the wheels for much less than 6 figures. Still doesn't make it any less enjoyable to drive. Not saying I'm not as competitive as the next guy and still want to b faster than anything out there

Just so I'm clear. J2k4, you already have the 13g's so this isn't about the best bang for the buck, it's just using what you've got, right?

[IPD]

has anyone put supra side mounts on a vr4 yet? i have one for my dsm im building and wondered y noone has done it on a vr4 (if they havent and i just dont know it)

the only side-mount upgrades i would consider for my car would be so massive that nothing else would fit. the old "gt alley" SMICS are a case in point.

[AudibleSilence]

Oh and there really aren't that many cars putting down 350-400 to the wheels for much less than 6 figures.

Camaro
Charger
Challenger
Corvette
CTS-V
GTO
Benz C55 AMG
GT-R

Just to name a few.. You can get used versions of most of these in their top trim levels for -50k (cept maybe the GT-R) and they all have more than 350hp stock. The 3000 in today's money is close to an 80k car...comparable GT cars nowadays just come with more HP stock for stock. Technology has improved as have engine designs. A VR4 with 13ts or 15gs will still romp most cars light to light, unless that other car is also modded...

Oh, and have you looked into an upgraded rad/fan setup over ditching the fmic?

[j2k4]

You build that 13G car correctly and it will be well worth it. First off when ever you get more power it's always fun and you always get used to it and need more. Why go straight to 600?
Second. It will be faster and more fun than many much more expensive bigger builds. There are so many people with a collection of big parts and no tune or something that doesn't work and they never get to drive it. I recommend a read of Russian VR4's thread on building high hp cars. Seems they bring the most joy around 400awhp. You drive it enjoy and don't worry about it. For me there is more to this game than just making big dyno #'s and fast ET's. For many of us it's about having a car you get in, trust, drive and enjoy. When did 350-400awhp become slow anyway...I've decided it's getting my dsm 13g's and DSM Sidemounts. FMIC just blocks the radiator a bit too much. Oh yea and learning and doing it yourself without relying on someone else...... priceless!

Figures - Mike gets it, but we have age-empathy working for us - fact is, until I bought the Stealth, I'd been totally off of and out of fun cars since 1980 - I sold a sub-eleven (10.91/129) second big-block Mustang to get the cash to marry my evil ex.

Also-

Unless I bought the Audi TT I coveted, I wasn't going to be farting around with turbos and AWD.

I was a pretty fair wrench, but things were much simpler, at least for the areas I was dabbling in.

Drag racing, a bit of circle-track pit-work, building/fabbing/customizing (ffs, I did custom vans - doesn't that just scream 1978?), and a lot of observation.

I don't know what-all the rest of you did, but I doubt many of you have 'left the game for 30 years' on your automotive resume.

I'm exploring the platform with the idea of enjoying it, like Mike says, and believe me, I know how that works; I know how to enjoy 350 WHP, too, and I know it's much easier to get away with the 350HP brand of fun than the 600WHP kind.

If I've got 600 horses, I'm not scouting long pulls on two-lane roads, and neither are any of you, unless you're full-goose bozo.

I have to drive about 160 miles to even get to a four-lane highway - how many of you can say that?

I'm not saying I'd carry a chain in the Stealth for pulling cows out of the muck, but, as I've said, I am almost at-the-end-of-the-Earth.


400whp became slow when the c6z debuted. either that, or when the viper hit 600hp. either way, 400whp hasn't been quite the same since.

granted, it's still quite potent--but it's not what it once was.

Everyone in the village has at least seen a Viper; several know what a Corvette C6Z is, but few have laid eyes on one - most have gotten a look at the Ford GT from the college town 25 miles to the north...and there are perhaps a few 3Ss (I know of four: an NA RT, an SL, a VR4, and another member here, Street_Chally73, are within a 75 mile radius.

400WHP won't be "slow" around here, and it still is "what it once was", unless they've done some funky Fujita-thing to horsepower ratings.

I'll say this:

I will get much more enjoyment out of my car than anyone else could.


-shrug- Still a waste of money vs. 15gs but people are gonna do what they want.

Yup - and I want to enjoy it.

If I can find another car to play with, and some other stuff comes together, we'll see about full-goose bozo, okay? :D

[vr3.9]

Camaro
Charger
Challenger
Corvette
CTS-V
GTO
Benz C55 AMG
GT-R

Just to name a few.. You can get used versions of most of these in their top trim levels for -50k (cept maybe the GT-R) and they all have more than 350hp stock. The 3000 in today's money is close to an 80k car...comparable GT cars nowadays just come with more HP stock for stock. Technology has improved as have engine designs. A VR4 with 13ts or 15gs will still romp most cars light to light, unless that other car is also modded...

Oh, and have you looked into an upgraded rad/fan setup over ditching the fmic?

First not ditching the FMIC. I have 2 VR4's. My 13T car was going to be the slow car and I was going to make the other one fast, but have decided I would be better served making the 93 9b car just a faster better stock version of itself.

As far as the list of cars you just named, look up the stated HP and go back and subtract drive train loss and you will have proved my point. 2006 GTO 400hp - 15% drive train = 340 whp.

400awhp 3s + 25% drive train loss = 500hp.

Now go look at the camaro, mustang, challenger etc drop another 50k at hennesy rouch etc. and they run 12.7 or so. At least that was the case 2 years ago. I will exclude the GTR because obviously it's #'s are understated.


Bottom line if you've got more than 20k in your 3s and can't kick pretty much anythings butt and look better doing it, your doing it wrong

[IPD]

a lot of us have more than 20k in our 3s, because we've owned them for years. i had easily over 10k in mine (including purchase price) before it was ever tt'd. now if you're starting from scratch, and you don't plan on using the car for anything other than occasional use--then 20k might be a fair figure; but let's be honest. i personally have dropped upwards of 40k on mine (working on a new build currently, so it's actually closing on 50k). i've owned it since 03, and i've put 100k on it since then.

p.s.
might want to check the hp #'s again. the ls3 vettes are putting down ~430 at the crank. that's 365.5whp, accounting for 15% drivetrain loss. i've driven one. 9b's won't cut it against that; and it'll take a lot of massaging to get 13g's to put a reliable smackdown on them.

p.p.s.
if you live in montana & your local population is a bear, a woodchuck and a squirrel--then sure, 13g's will kick the shit out of everything in your neck of the woods. but i don't build my car to be "king of the street"; geography dependent. yes, there will always be faster cars out there. still, if you can go to a chevy dealership with a wad of cash and walk out with a faster car--then something is wrong. i have much respect for the vette; because it's the litmus test for performance. at a minimum, a modded car should be faster than a NEW base vette.

p.p.p.s.
iirc, the 2011 mustang GT's are et'ing at 12.5-12.6's. take that for what it's worth too.

[Jimvr4]

Bottom line if you've got more than 20k in your 3s and can't kick pretty much anythings butt and look better doing it, your doing it wrong

I have > $45K in mine by now and it's still slow :lo5l:

[j2k4]

Just an option if I find the stockers to be a problem and I can find a set real cheap. Oh and just to make it clear I'm talking about my 93 green one that's completely stock except for a downpipe. Oh and there really aren't that many cars putting down 350-400 to the wheels for much less than 6 figures. Still doesn't make it any less enjoyable to drive. Not saying I'm not as competitive as the next guy and still want to b faster than anything out there

Just so I'm clear. J2k4, you already have the 13g's so this isn't about the best bang for the buck, it's just using what you've got, right?

Yes - 13Gs were in hand - my rationale, in any case, was that the learning curve with the car is my responsibility - many of you can basically 'go down the street' to find help, tuning-wise; I have to pick brains, on-line.

I don't want to get in over my head, get disgusted, and abandon the project.

Hell, I've got a guy, lives around the corner, who listened while I described how I would do one of the 'new' Mustangs (right down to the color) to my barber during a haircut.

One month later, he's got a brand-new Roush Mustang sitting in his driveway, and wants me to drop by so he can show it to me.

Fucking guy has made me hate Mustangs, and I was weaned on them; I still have a pile of engine parts.

[vr3.9]

It was late when I wrote that and gave it just a guess. Decided to add up what I've spent, minus maintenance and cosmetic things like wheels and chrome bits. I'm sure there's probably some other bits and pieces I forgot but it's pretty close. Not to bad for 13 years and 160k miles of driving. (it had 100k when I bought it). Many of the parts were just good deals on the forum and the clip definitely made things easier and cheaper. Also didn't subtract the money I made selling left over parts from it accept the dash on trade.

Purchase price 1998 8000
New interior 500
Paint 1000
Clip 2200
13T's 1200
Gauges 700
Ebc 200
Safc 200
MAF MAFT 110
IC 500
Scanmaster 200
Clutch 500
Ground controls 200
Radiator 50 + (GTO dash)
Injectors 250
AFPR 200
3sx down pipe 250
Timing gears 170
Cutout 200
Inline fuel pump 100
Intake pipes 180
BOV 110
TC bracket 75

Total $17095


Edit: also helps that I do everything myself including paint and interior. I haven't spent a penny on labor. (accept alignment)

[AudibleSilence]

First not ditching the FMIC. I have 2 VR4's. My 13T car was going to be the slow car and I was going to make the other one fast, but have decided I would be better served making the 93 9b car just a faster better stock version of itself.

As far as the list of cars you just named, look up the stated HP and go back and subtract drive train loss and you will have proved my point. 2006 GTO 400hp - 15% drive train = 340 whp.

400awhp 3s + 25% drive train loss = 500hp.

Now go look at the camaro, mustang, challenger etc drop another 50k at hennesy rouch etc. and they run 12.7 or so. At least that was the case 2 years ago. I will exclude the GTR because obviously it's #'s are understated.


Bottom line if you've got more than 20k in your 3s and can't kick pretty much anythings butt and look better doing it, your doing it wrong

As mentioned, I left out the mustang. They are running mid/high 12s with shit drivers with good tires and a cai right off the showroom floor. As also mentioned the cars running LS3s (Maro, Vette) with bolt ons (H/I/E) they are putting down 380-400rwhp. Same with the Challenger srt8. I'm one of the few stockish goats in DFW..they are all at 380-450rwhp. Your chances of running into a stock performance car are slim so then what do you do? The 13g car is already maxed and these guys are running the same times and power on bolt ons. like I said, it's not enough.

[j2k4]

The 13g car is already maxed and these guys are running the same times and power on bolt ons. like I said, it's not enough.

Enough for what, Mike?

I thought I imparted, at least indirectly, that I wasn't looking to put a smack-down on every motor-jockey i see, I'm doing it for enjoyment.

I have done the other to a fair-thee-well.

Do you shoot pool, Mike?

I do.

Ever play by yourself?

I did - it's how I learned.

You are making a very comprehensive, competent, and just shy-of-objective argument, and I commend you for it.

I've enjoyed every word. :)

[AudibleSilence]

Enough for what, Mike?

To compete and not be embarrassed?


I thought I imparted, at least indirectly, that I wasn't looking to put a smack-down on every motor-jockey i see, I'm doing it for enjoyment.

I don't think I ever said you were looking to smack folks down. I would hope at least that you'd want to not have a mudhole stomped into your butt every time you line up to something new. Personally I think we can learn a lot from our defeats, but I don't want to lose a good amount of the time either. I also don't see the point in limiting yourself. 13gs were a good turbo back when the competition wasn't packing a bigger stick..now they are. If you just want some pep..well then fine, but me personally the last thing I want is some douche canoe in a Vette talking smack about how his car is so much better than mine.

Oh, and to that list I forgot to add the 335i. They are putting down 380rwhp on a piggy back and a tune. They also spool as fast as a 9b car. Rob Beck came out with a turbo kit for them that has them in the 6xx range at almost the same spool characteristics. They are the new 800lb Gorilla on the street in terms of stock turbo cars.


I have done the other to a fair-thee-well.

Do you shoot pool, Mike?

I do.

Ever play by yourself?

I did - it's how I learned.

You are making a very comprehensive, competent, and just shy-of-objective argument, and I commend you for it.

I've enjoyed every word. :)

Don't really like Pool. I respect it, but I am just terrible at it.

[j2k4]

To compete and not be embarrassed?



I don't think I ever said you were looking to smack folks down. I would hope at least that you'd want to not have a mudhole stomped into your butt every time you line up to something new. Personally I think we can learn a lot from our defeats, but I don't want to lose a good amount of the time either. I also don't see the point in limiting yourself. 13gs were a good turbo back when the competition wasn't packing a bigger stick..now they are. If you just want some pep..well then fine, but me personally the last thing I want is some douche canoe in a Vette talking smack about how his car is so much better than mine.

Oh, and to that list I forgot to add the 335i. They are putting down 380rwhp on a piggy back and a tune. They also spool as fast as a 9b car. Rob Beck came out with a turbo kit for them that has them in the 6xx range at almost the same spool characteristics. They are the new 800lb Gorilla on the street in terms of stock turbo cars.



Don't really like Pool. I respect it, but I am just terrible at it.

Well, a healthy part of the reason this car has grown on me since I bought it was the sense of fraternity I found in places like this.

My spirit of competition is intact, I assure you, but I can count cubic dollars as well as anyone, and I know how expensive these things can be.

If I end up somewhere along the line with 6-700 horses, I might face off with someone once in a while, but if I was to get the idea of capital "C" competing, I'd be aiming at guys like Ray, and Matt, because the King of the Hill gets to wear the crown.

That's just not what I'm after, anymore.

[2fnloud]

Don't really like Pool. I respect it, but I am just terrible at it.

Be honest your back gets soar from having to bend over so far ;)

[IPD]

It was late when I wrote that and gave it just a guess. Decided to add up what I've spent, minus maintenance and cosmetic things like wheels and chrome bits. I'm sure there's probably some other bits and pieces I forgot but it's pretty close. Not to bad for 13 years and 160k miles of driving. (it had 100k when I bought it). Many of the parts were just good deals on the forum and the clip definitely made things easier and cheaper. Also didn't subtract the money I made selling left over parts from it accept the dash on trade.

Purchase price 1998 8000
New interior 500
Paint 1000
Clip 2200
13T's 1200
Gauges 700
Ebc 200
Safc 200
MAF MAFT 110
IC 500
Scanmaster 200
Clutch 500
Ground controls 200
Radiator 50 + (GTO dash)
Injectors 250
AFPR 200
3sx down pipe 250
Timing gears 170
Cutout 200
Inline fuel pump 100
Intake pipes 180
BOV 110
TC bracket 75

Total $17095


Edit: also helps that I do everything myself including paint and interior. I haven't spent a penny on labor. (accept alignment)

so the moral of this story is that it can be done for dirt cheap if you do everything yourself and accept piss-poor quality parts in exchange for having to do more work yourself. fair enough.

paint on my engine bay cost more than what you spent for paint on your whole car. a quality intercooler is going to cost at least a grand--unless you enjoy spending countless hours getting it to fit right; and that goes double for if you want it to look right & also fit around other heat-exchangers sitting in the front/sides of your car. a new radiator (a GOOD one, like a 2" 3sx or mishimoto) costs over $200.

my point is, congrats to you for being able to slap yours together for 2 dimes and a song. you are not the norm.

p.s.
you should include the cost of maintenance & cosmetic mods. "look good going it" includes things like wheels. maintenance includes the stuff you had to have replaced in order to run 160k miles on it. hell, i've got $3500-4k in 60/120k services alone. tires have ran me close to 4k. rims were $2600. the tt swap (including supporting mods) was 4-5k. the awd conversion was another 4k. then you'd have to add in the sunroof replacement, battery replacements, and all the other "pretty"mods that i've done.

shit adds up fast; but if you're only counting the $$$ invested to make it "go faster & look better doing it" then i've only got about 10k invested (not counting purchase price)--before the new build started.

[vr3.9]

I excluded the cost of cosmetic upgrade since so much of the push of this seemed to be at being able to outrun anything on the planet. Yes, I have the CRX intercooler. May not have been the best choice in hind sight jury is still out on that one. I'm not sure if it's because I'm just too cheap or if it's because I don't trust anyone else to do things. Sometimes I really wish I couldn't do it myself and could just right a check. I even bought a 20 ton press and rebuilt my tranny rather than send it out. Sometimes I really enjoy the whole process sometimes I just want to sit in the hot tub and drink a beer. Having painted my engine bay, if you paid someone to pull everything, clean it paint and put it back together, yea I would think that would cost a lot. I just did it myself. I cal this the fully monty.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd64/reachmercer/finished.jpg

[IPD]

not pull it. just clean & paint it. 2-stage.

[AudibleSilence]

IPD to be fair, Mike owns about the only local 3s that I'm worried about. He put it together himself, but those parts work together BEAUTIFULLY. I've seen shop done jobs that fail or perform poorly because the combo of parts is bad.

[IPD]

i'm not arguing that he didn't do an exemplary job. his dyno record attests to that.

my objection is over the cost of having a fast 3/s (and 10 years of ownership--including extensive use) equating to 20k or less--including the price of the car. that's preposterous. it can certainly be done at a discount if one services everything by oneself; but the cost is still substantial.

[mb3000]

Nobody has pointed this out yet, not sure why. The debate between 13g vs. upgraded turbo's isn't a fixed comparison. What do you mean by that mb? Unlike parts such as cams, exhaust, & solid engine mounts; the results aren't permanent once initially installed. You have complete control your turbo's (assuming you have a quality boost controller)

In today's economy, you would be insane not to get your money's worth. You say you want a 350-400 AWHP car, a good DD. You can tune 13g's to the ragged edge of hell w/ tons of supporting mods and might get there. Every car is different. OR you can get your money's worth with a 19T setup (w/ or without the HL turbine wheel) for a slightly higher initial cost. You can easily get to 350-400 AWHP with 19T's and far less supporting mods than the 13g's, spending less money in the long run. Keep the boost low and get the HP #'s that you want. If you find yourself wanting more HP, you'll be thrilled to remember that you only run Xpsi and have another Xpsi just waiting for you.

For daily driving, you might find that you don't want that much HP, in which case you can turn down the boost.

I have done the same thing. I have every modification needed to push my turbo's to the limit, but I drive around on wastegate boost & tune. I'm one of the slowest cars on the road, never rev past 3k rpm when accelerating, and be laughed at by the local "JDM" crew. That's fine with me, because I know I have so much more available at my fingertips. The early 2000's have passed, and so have my want & need to drive the baddest car in my town.

On another note, I'll never understand the want from people to buy sub DR750 turbo's. Ether you want the best "bolt on" turbo's or you don't. IMO the #'s from the smaller DR turbo's can be replicated from conventional turbos with similar supporting modifications. I just can't see the performance gains from the DR turbo's to be great enough to justify the cost. This is of course, for sub 750's.

[IPD]

Nobody has pointed this out yet, not sure why. The debate between 13g vs. upgraded turbo's isn't a fixed comparison. What do you mean by that mb? Unlike parts such as cams, exhaust, & solid engine mounts; the results aren't permanent once initially installed. You have complete control your turbo's (assuming you have a quality boost controller)

In today's economy, you would be insane not to get your money's worth. You say you want a 350-400 AWHP car, a good DD. You can tune 13g's to the ragged edge of hell w/ tons of supporting mods and might get there. Every car is different. OR you can get your money's worth with a 19T setup (w/ or without the HL turbine wheel) for a slightly higher initial cost. You can easily get to 350-400 AWHP with 19T's and far less supporting mods than the 13g's, spending less money in the long run. Keep the boost low and get the HP #'s that you want. If you find yourself wanting more HP, you'll be thrilled to remember that you only run Xpsi and have another Xpsi just waiting for you.

For daily driving, you might find that you don't want that much HP, in which case you can turn down the boost.

I have done the same thing. I have every modification needed to push my turbo's to the limit, but I drive around on wastegate boost & tune. I'm one of the slowest cars on the road, never rev past 3k rpm when accelerating, and be laughed at by the local "JDM" crew. That's fine with me, because I know I have so much more available at my fingertips. The early 2000's have passed, and so have my want & need to drive the baddest car in my town.

On another note, I'll never understand the want from people to buy sub DR750 turbo's. Ether you want the best "bolt on" turbo's or you don't. IMO the #'s from the smaller DR turbo's can be replicated from conventional turbos with similar supporting modifications. I just can't see the performance gains from the DR turbo's to be great enough to justify the cost. This is of course, for sub 750's.

i think it's because the cost difference between dr650's and 19t HL's is marginal; and the 650's will give you roughly equivalent power while spooling faster.

[vr3.9]

Nobody has pointed this out yet, not sure why. The debate between 13g vs. upgraded turbo's isn't a fixed comparison. What do you mean by that mb? Unlike parts such as cams, exhaust, & solid engine mounts; the results aren't permanent once initially installed. You have complete control your turbo's (assuming you have a quality boost controller)

In today's economy, you would be insane not to get your money's worth. You say you want a 350-400 AWHP car, a good DD. You can tune 13g's to the ragged edge of hell w/ tons of supporting mods and might get there. Every car is different. OR you can get your money's worth with a 19T setup (w/ or without the HL turbine wheel) for a slightly higher initial cost. You can easily get to 350-400 AWHP with 19T's and far less supporting mods than the 13g's, spending less money in the long run. Keep the boost low and get the HP #'s that you want. If you find yourself wanting more HP, you'll be thrilled to remember that you only run Xpsi and have another Xpsi just waiting for you.

For daily driving, you might find that you don't want that much HP, in which case you can turn down the boost.

I have done the same thing. I have every modification needed to push my turbo's to the limit, but I drive around on wastegate boost & tune. I'm one of the slowest cars on the road, never rev past 3k rpm when accelerating, and be laughed at by the local "JDM" crew. That's fine with me, because I know I have so much more available at my fingertips. The early 2000's have passed, and so have my want & need to drive the baddest car in my town.

On another note, I'll never understand the want from people to buy sub DR750 turbo's. Ether you want the best "bolt on" turbo's or you don't. IMO the #'s from the smaller DR turbo's can be replicated from conventional turbos with similar supporting modifications. I just can't see the performance gains from the DR turbo's to be great enough to justify the cost. This is of course, for sub 750's.

I think I can answer this.

A. He already has 13g's. Best bang for the buck is using what you have, especially when it is sufficient for your wants, goals and needs.

B. Ok, I know this is going to be a slippery slope and not correct for everyone, but it is correct for me and I'm pretty sure some others. Bigger isn't always better. Yesterday I was offered an upgrade option to some 19t's. Basically a three way swap where 3 people upgrade and it would cost me nearly nothing but the time to change out the turbos. I turned it down. Why? Because my car's general purpose is general driving. In 13 years of driving these cars I've only had one person pull up at light and want to race. She was a hot chick in a BMW. Unfortuantely I was in my ugly 9b green car. I sure would like another chance at that one. lol Anyway my point is after talking to a few people who have been in my car and driven and been in other 13T and 19T cars 13T's seem to be more fun. I know as soon as I mention lag on TD04 someone will call foul, but the truth is 13t's spool up quicker and make more power under the curve. Sure my competitive nature pushes me to want 700awhp, but the truth is except at the track I have way more power than I ever use or need. This is why my green car will be getting my dsm 13gs. They will simply do the job I need done. All that said if someone wants to give me a set of DR750's I believe they will give me everything I already have and give me more of what I want. Pretty much everything else is a compromise in one area or another.

[IPD]

jeez, if spool up is that much of a concern, get a stroker. that's my solution anyways. and if i'm still not happy with the response of the 16g's; i'll get billet ones and call it a day.

[vr3.9]

jeez, if spool up is that much of a concern, get a stroker. that's my solution anyways. and if i'm still not happy with the response of the 16g's; i'll get billet ones and call it a day.

it's not just spool its how hard they hit so quick. Anyway, Stroker + billet 16g's = pure win.

Now if I could just find a way to do it for less than 2k. lol

[mb3000]

If he already has the 13G's than /thread. No need to change what he already has.

[j2k4]

Cast crank.

Cast crack.

Cast crank.

[j2k4]

Everyone who has NOT posted in this thread must drive stone-stock 9B cars.

[AdamVR4]

so the moral of this story is that it can be done for dirt cheap if you do everything yourself and accept piss-poor quality parts in exchange for having to do more work yourself.

So is the FMIC the only thing you see from that list you think is "piss poor quality"? The list looked totally legitimate to me minus the cost estimate on the FMIC. I didn't spend much more than that, but most people do.

While we're on it though, why did you get a stroker just to run 16G's? I've got 16G's and a stock block and the only way I'd EVER go stroker (one of Ray's cranks NO MATTER WHAT) is if I was committed to making 750+++ AWHP

So IMO, with strokers, if you're going to do it, get one of Ray's cranks. Otherwise, stick with 16G's/DR800 (or less) and the stock block. It's a massive spending threshold.



lol Anyway my point is after talking to a few people who have been in my car and driven and been in other 13T and 19T cars 13T's seem to be more fun. I know as soon as I mention lag on TD04 someone will call foul, but the truth is 13t's spool up quicker and make more power under the curve.

I don't know about 13T's having more area under the curve than 19T's, but 13T's are obviously very responsive. The dyno chart I posted earlier was comparing a relatively roughly tuned AEM EMS 13G car to a (piss-poor?) SAFC/MAF-T 13T car that I had street tuned the night before with Grayson. The low RPM power curves follow each other almost perfectly, haha...

[IPD]

his the parts on the list are legit...i just question some of the costs, adam.

p.s.
the only reason i went with a stroker is because my engine had a cast crank; and i'm not ballsy enough to test my luck with that + 16g combination. i could have rebuilt for cheaper...but at that point, wtf not stroke it?

[vr3.9]

his the parts on the list are legit...i just question some of the costs, adam.


You were right I found an error. I only paid 350 for my interior, maybe a little less. And yes it's real nice leather, installed it myself. I bought a few things new, plx gauges, down pipe etc. But most things I got from locals or off the forum. I will admit the clip with 25k miles @ 2200 was a steal and one of the best choices I made. I will be paying someone else to shoot paint on my 93 in a booth, but I will do all the prep work so I don't expect it to cost very much. He's a local 3s guy that does awesome work. Since I only paid 1500 for the car it's going to be a real cheap ride. I will be building a motor for it and it already has a tranny I rebuilt in it. I was going to make it a DR750 or 16g 99 replica, but I think those plans have changed. Oh and when i pull the motor it will get the "fully monty" too.

p.s. I think your choice of stroker and 16g's is spot on. Would love to have the funds to do that myself.

[IPD]

gray-haze was the inspiration for it. after reading about guys using 15g's on a stroker--and about how 750's gassed on a stroker; 16g's seemed like the ticket.

[AdamVR4]

I thought Ray's partner in crime (Black Widow?) said the 16G's choked his stroker. But if you're rebuilding anyway, it seems like a fine match. It's just harder for me to make that plunge with a 93 :p

[vr3.9]

I thought Ray's partner in crime (Black Widow?) said the 16G's choked his stroker. But if you're rebuilding anyway, it seems like a fine match. It's just harder for me to make that plunge with a 93 :p

Since this thread has been pretty much about everything but what it started as, why not?

Dyno Results - EVO3 vs FP-HTA68 - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/dyno-results-evo3-vs-fp-hta68-513160/)

Still pretty amazing that DR750's can get close to this on a 3L. Up to a point.

[MR2]

another interesting direction on this, the ECU is pretty good at working out when it's running too rich, so I think I'm going to try throwing 450cc injectors on a stock ecu and see what happens.

[j2k4]

Since this thread has been pretty much about everything but what it started as...

I don't mind at all, Mike - great reading.;)

[IPD]

thanks for the link, mike. i'd almost forgotten about that thread. yeah, 20psi is pretty much my goal--nearly 600awhp on pure-pump....that's just evil. :)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Cast crank.

Cast crack.

Cast crank.

Still running the cast crank with 160000 miles on mine.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[IPD]

Still running the cast crank with 160000 miles on mine.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

...with 19t's. good luck with that. you're a braver man than i.

[j2k4]

...with 19t's. good luck with that. you're a braver man than i.

What he ^ said.

[UTRacerX9]

...with 19t's. good luck with that. you're a braver man than i.

As long as he monitors knock, he should be just fine. Chris has proven the cast crank can take a lot of power, more than 19T's can produce.

[AudibleSilence]

Can a cast crank take it? Possibly.. Would I risk damage to my engine or the downtime for such a cheap piece of insurance? Nope.

[UTRacerX9]

Ok, I know this is going to be a slippery slope and not correct for everyone, but it is correct for me and I'm pretty sure some others. Bigger isn't always better. Anyway my point is after talking to a few people who have been in my car and driven and been in other 13T and 19T cars 13T's seem to be more fun. I know as soon as I mention lag on TD04 someone will call foul, but the truth is 13t's spool up quicker and make more power under the curve.

Indeed, and this is why I will probably end up doing a 13T/19T combo. ;) I've decided when it starts cooling down a bit, to start working on the car again, put in all the mods that have been accumulating for the past several years, and then go to Ennis. My original goal has never changed, I want to run 11.7 at around 120-125, on pump gas. I think it's possible with 13T's, but if not, I'll upgrade one and that should do it.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

...with 19t's. good luck with that. you're a braver man than i.

if it blows it blows, who cares.

Going to have to do a complete overhaul anyway. I have another core block, spare rods, spare forged crank, etc. Pretty much everything needs replacing anyway, may as well see how long this engine can live. When I replaced the bearings 20K ago the crank looked flawless.

It really isn't even in the back of my mind, been running it hard for 30K miles since I got it.

[vr3.9]

Having read a bunch of discussions on the subject I think the conclusion was basically this. Cast isn't necessarily weaker, just more likely to have flaws. If you get one without flaws your going to be good. If you get one with a pretty serious flaw, well good luck. I think the odds of it holding together are probably in your favor. Since blowing it up is just a forced upgrade you've already planned on. I say let er rip.

[IPD]

i'm with mike. if you've got a spare & don't give a flip--go for it.

i do think it's important to add that proviso though. MOST owners don't have spares ready to go, and telling them that "you can run the cast crank fine without any problems" isn't going to do them (or this platform) any favors.

[j2k4]

Having read a bunch of discussions on the subject I think the conclusion was basically this. Cast isn't necessarily weaker, just more likely to have flaws. If you get one without flaws your going to be good. If you get one with a pretty serious flaw, well good luck. I think the odds of it holding together are probably in your favor. Since blowing it up is just a forced upgrade you've already planned on. I say let er rip.

I hear ya...


i'm with mike. if you've got a spare & don't give a flip--go for it.

i do think it's important to add that proviso though. MOST owners don't have spares ready to go, and telling them that "you can run the cast crank fine without any problems" isn't going to do them (or this platform) any favors.

...and, thanks.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

i'm with mike. if you've got a spare & don't give a flip--go for it.

i do think it's important to add that proviso though. MOST owners don't have spares ready to go, and telling them that "you can run the cast crank fine without any problems" isn't going to do them (or this platform) any favors.

it isn't like it is a great idea to take a high mile motor and just drop a forged crank in it anyway. You are going to need to do a complete overhaul either way.

So, the cost is basically the same whether this motor grenades or not. The only thing that sucks is having to clear out the bearing material, but if I get a couple more years of use from this engine that is worth it IMO.

[IPD]

if the crank snaps, a LOT of shit could go wrong with the engine; even to the point at which the block/heads is rendered useless. pushing it to a catastrophic failure is NOT a good idea.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

if the crank snaps, a LOT of shit could go wrong with the engine; even to the point at which the block/heads is rendered useless. pushing it to a catastrophic failure is NOT a good idea.

meh, forged cranks have snapped in half randomly too, not worried about it. you guys worry way too much, drive your cars instead.

[Alan92RTTT]

Still running the cast crank with 160000 miles on mine.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

I'm at the 160k mark too and I drive mine 105 mines round trip daily.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I'm at the 160k mark too and I drive mine 105 mines round trip daily.

nice, I drive mine daily too for the last 5 years, but only a couple miles a day. Only done about 25K miles in the last 5 years.

[IPD]

I'm at the 160k mark too and I drive mine 105 mines round trip daily.

on 19t's?

p.s.
forged cranks don't randomly snap in half. they loudly protest people who don't install them properly, mis-machine them, or bitchslap them with a solid pulley and 500+ whp.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

on 19t's?

p.s.
forged cranks don't randomly snap in half. they loudly protest people who don't install them properly, mis-machine them, or bitchslap them with a solid pulley and 500+ whp.

uh yeah there are plenty of forged cranks in multiple pieces. just look at the pumpkin from texas. just because its forged doesn't make it magic metal and just because it is cast doesn't make it shit.

[IPD]

duly noted. but i tend to side with IPO's recommendations; so forged it is.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

here is your forged crank carnage, courtesy of iceman:

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb155/iceman_ii/working/crank.jpg


There is no arguing I'm going to build a motor with a forged crank, but I am just not going to break down a good working engine and rebuild it.

[AdamVR4]

uh yeah there are plenty of forged cranks in multiple pieces. just look at the pumpkin from texas. just because its forged doesn't make it magic metal and just because it is cast doesn't make it shit.

Plenty? You just named the only one I've ever heard of and it came out of a car that has had multiple engine rebuilds. Can you name other examples?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Plenty? You just named the only one I've ever heard of and it came out of a car that has had multiple engine rebuilds. Can you name other examples?

Adam,

Maybe plenty is not the right word, but it is not like everyone who's broken one or has serious cracks is going to post up. I'm certainly not arguing that the cast crank isn't a risk or that forged is not much stronger. I'm also not saying to go run one if you want 600 AWHP.

What I am sick of seeing is people posting up what they have "heard" all the time. No I don't have to cut off my leg with a chainsaw to take someone else's advice about being careful with one, but I'm just tired of seeing everyone repeat the mantra they have read somewhere without having any experience with it.

I also hate seeing people take their car apart for six months and spend $10,000 because they think that 19Ts are going to magically blow their engine when they hit the throttle the first time.

Don't pick your turbos based on your crank. Set a power goal and go from there. I'm pretty comfortable with my setup being plenty strong to make maybe 100 more whp than I do now. I'm probably only running 350AWHP now.

13Gs vs 19Ts basically doesn't matter a whole lot of pure pump. If you only want 400AWHP you will still be perfectly happy with 19Ts. You don't have to try to run 25PSI all the time. Run what you have now if you don't have compression or oil pressure issues. Buy the right turbo for your long term goals.

I gained no trap speed going from 13Ts to 19Ts. I was running 4 less degrees of timing this year and about the same boost. Same trap speeds. So, the 19Ts may be worth a few horsepower over the 13Ts at your typical pump boost levels, but it isn't much.

Hope that makes sense, not trying to come off like an asshole here.

[hotGTO]

So hey guys! I'm really glad I saw this thread! You guys touched on lots of things about upgrading turbos and supporting mods to overboost stock and mild turbos that I would have spent a week researching. The "time-warp" was great for a 101 course for those of us who are newer to the 3s game. Plus I found out thru that link how bad overboosting really is and the HIDDEN damage that the knock will do from overboosting without fuel. Everyone says "don't overboost" but that does not explain the real damage to those who are new to turbos... Thanks!!

[Alan92RTTT]

on 19t's?

p.s.
forged cranks don't randomly snap in half. they loudly protest people who don't install them properly, mis-machine them, or bitchslap them with a solid pulley and 500+ whp.No, only 13g's

Its the 100 miles a day that rough on mine.

[UTRacerX9]

Plenty? You just named the only one I've ever heard of and it came out of a car that has had multiple engine rebuilds. Can you name other examples?

Pretty sure Nelson grenaded a forged crank before IIRC. It isn't like there's a ton of cast cranks that grenade either, because there aren't that many people making enough power to do so. As far as spun bearings go, I think the cast cranks have slightly more cases of that. In fact, I think there was a poll on this back in the day on the other site.

[IPD]

Adam,

Maybe plenty is not the right word, but it is not like everyone who's broken one or has serious cracks is going to post up. I'm certainly not arguing that the cast crank isn't a risk or that forged is not much stronger. I'm also not saying to go run one if you want 600 AWHP.

What I am sick of seeing is people posting up what they have "heard" all the time. No I don't have to cut off my leg with a chainsaw to take someone else's advice about being careful with one, but I'm just tired of seeing everyone repeat the mantra they have read somewhere without having any experience with it.

I also hate seeing people take their car apart for six months and spend $10,000 because they think that 19Ts are going to magically blow their engine when they hit the throttle the first time.

Don't pick your turbos based on your crank. Set a power goal and go from there. I'm pretty comfortable with my setup being plenty strong to make maybe 100 more whp than I do now. I'm probably only running 350AWHP now.

13Gs vs 19Ts basically doesn't matter a whole lot of pure pump. If you only want 400AWHP you will still be perfectly happy with 19Ts. You don't have to try to run 25PSI all the time. Run what you have now if you don't have compression or oil pressure issues. Buy the right turbo for your long term goals.

I gained no trap speed going from 13Ts to 19Ts. I was running 4 less degrees of timing this year and about the same boost. Same trap speeds. So, the 19Ts may be worth a few horsepower over the 13Ts at your typical pump boost levels, but it isn't much.

Hope that makes sense, not trying to come off like an asshole here.

i can respect that. i was VERY NEARLY in the dr750 camp; and my goal has always been 500awhp. i'm too skiddish to try that on a cast crank. 350awhp i wouldn't sweat; but that's not even pushing it on a 19t tune.

[J-Groove]

As far as spun bearings go, I think the cast cranks have slightly more cases of that. In fact, I think there was a poll on this back in the day on the other site.

I'll agree with that, though the real question should be what percentage.

There were a lot more forged crank engines produced that the two and a half years of cast. The case of more may be just because there is more in the risk pool.

-John

[j2k4]

I'll agree with that, though the real question should be what percentage.

There were a lot more forged crank engines produced that the two and a half years of cast. The case of more may be just because there is more in the risk pool.

-John

The production numbers from '91 and '92 were huge, compared to other years.

There are still a lot of cast cranks.

[J-Groove]

The production numbers from '91 and '92 were huge, compared to other years.

There are still a lot of cast cranks.

Just looked it up on Stealth316, WOW! I had no idea how many first gens were produced!

60,136 cast and 91,318 forged

That is a lot closer than I would have thought.